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Old 2009-11-15, 20:31   Link #3281
Ithekro
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Sort of a random thought. What if the landslide isn't the entire cause of the deaths. What if is simply makes escape from the house impossible and/or the boiler breaks, causing a fire. Without a way out, everyone dies. The way to the tunnel to the gold/Kwadorian is in the mansion, and if one knows where it is, they can escape the fire. In Episode 2 Rosa was outside an gets caught by the landslide (represented by the massive numbers of goats). In Episode 1 and 2, Battler (and the others if any) are inside and get burned by the fire (represented by the massed golden buttlerflies). In Episode 3 Eva escapes...she knows where the gold is.

Likewise, solving the riddle of the gold will allow those that solve it to survive the accident, because they have an escape route...even if the accident is not man-made. Thus it is possible for the resolution of Game 5 for the survivors to survive if this is the case...however we still don't know what happened to them after October 5th in that Game.
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Old 2009-11-15, 22:23   Link #3282
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Let me be more specific: Shannon or Jessica (although Shannon more likely imo) can be the one to give Maria the letter, just not in EP 2. They were with everyone else when Suit-Beato entered the mansion (since this was after lunch time).

That isn't to say someone that might be working with the fake Beato couldn't have done it. It could explain the alternative outfit as well - they couldn't find the dress and so decided to use something else.
Well... I agree that there is a very high probability that either Shannon or Jessica are Beatrice, but it's not set in stone. Also by the same reasoning you should make a cross on Jessica since she was with Battler when Maria received the letter in Ep1.

There are still many possibilities open. For example you are assuming that in Ep2 Beatrice really showed herself with that suit and make up to Rosa and Kyrie, however this isn't necessarily true as much as it isn't necessarily true that they saw a zombie Kanon.

In other words the possibility that Shannon followed Rosa after she run in search of Maria can't be excluded.

At the very least this is till better than saying that Beatrice in metaword can say "I gave the letter to Maria" in red even if it wasn't her piece counterpart who did it.

That would be really lame.
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Old 2009-11-15, 22:40   Link #3283
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Sort of a random thought. What if the landslide isn't the entire cause of the deaths. What if is simply makes escape from the house impossible and/or the boiler breaks, causing a fire. Without a way out, everyone dies. The way to the tunnel to the gold/Kwadorian is in the mansion, and if one knows where it is, they can escape the fire. In Episode 2 Rosa was outside an gets caught by the landslide (represented by the massive numbers of goats). In Episode 1 and 2, Battler (and the others if any) are inside and get burned by the fire (represented by the massed golden buttlerflies). In Episode 3 Eva escapes...she knows where the gold is.

Likewise, solving the riddle of the gold will allow those that solve it to survive the accident, because they have an escape route...even if the accident is not man-made. Thus it is possible for the resolution of Game 5 for the survivors to survive if this is the case...however we still don't know what happened to them after October 5th in that Game.
Just to note something about what happens in the end: wouldn't the police have spotted and noted something as big as a landslide or a fire? Sure, they don't have a clue on what actually happened, but something as obvious as that would certainly not have been missed.

My theory: All deaths were caused by an human element. There's no way something like a landslide or a fire would have been missed. Same thing with obviously wrong things like a destroyed boiler.

Because, come on... The police can't be THAT incompetent.
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Old 2009-11-15, 22:46   Link #3284
Marion
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There are still many possibilities open. For example you are assuming that in Ep2 Beatrice really showed herself with that suit and make up to Rosa and Kyrie, however this isn't necessarily true as much as it isn't necessarily true that they saw a zombie Kanon.

In other words the possibility that Shannon followed Rosa after she run in search of Maria can't be excluded.

At the very least this is till better than saying that Beatrice in metaword can say "I gave the letter to Maria" in red even if it wasn't her piece counterpart who did it.

That would be really lame.
Actually I don't assume a Beato went to Kyrie and Rosa with make up and all. In fact there's a good chance the existence of that Beato is incredibly fake, in my opinion.

As for Shannon running after Rosa - Rosa ran from the conference room to the rose garden. This means Shannon would HAVE to know Rosa would chase back after Maria, which normally doesn't have until before dinner time when this occurred around lunch time. Again Kyrie was the one who mentioned the bad weather and if she didn't point it out to Rosa then the latter probably wouldn't even have cared.
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Old 2009-11-15, 23:31   Link #3285
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Well where's the problem with that? When Rosa suddenly realized Maria was still in the garden and started running there, Shannon was with her, she has seen her doing that. At least that's how I remember it...
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Old 2009-11-15, 23:45   Link #3286
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Well where's the problem with that? When Rosa suddenly realized Maria was still in the garden and started running there, Shannon was with her, she has seen her doing that. At least that's how I remember it...
In the game Kanon was the one who saw Maria getting her candy crushed, but I think he left after that. I replayed the part about a week ago and Shannon wasn't in it.
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Old 2009-11-16, 00:01   Link #3287
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The scene I mention is after that. Rosa is with the other adults then comes Shannon. At that point Rosa remembers that she left Maria in the Garden and she rushes there.

That's when Beatrice appears.

The scene with Kanon is earlier. What matters here is where people were when Beatrice appears in front of Maria and Rosa.
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Old 2009-11-16, 00:05   Link #3288
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The scene I mention is after that. Rosa is with the other adults then comes Shannon. At that point Rosa remembers that she left Maria in the Garden and she rushes there.

That's when Beatrice appears.

The scene with Kanon is earlier. What matters here is where people were when Beatrice appears in front of Maria and Rosa.
Oh I remember now. Yeah I see what you mean.

But at the same time you have to wonder - Kyrie says the Beato she saw looked like she was in her 20's, but Shannon is still pretty young looking.
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Old 2009-11-16, 01:06   Link #3289
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Imagine two different scenarios:

1. Shannon was dressing up as suit-Beatrice, waiting outside in the garden (or inside the mansion) for Rosa to run out for Maria. Fortunately, Kyrie pointed out it was going to rain heavily to Rosa, so that Shannon (and Maria) did not need to get showered in rain.

2. Kyrie told Shannon to dress up as Beatrice and waited inside the mansion, Kyrie said she would remind Rosa about the weather before it was going to rain heavily. When Rosa ran out of the mansion, Shannon showed up.

Which one was more plausible?
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Old 2009-11-16, 01:38   Link #3290
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A few things I think are the truth on real Beatrice and the murders:

1. Whoever the real Beatrice was, she (or he) had already solved the epigraph, and succeeded the title of the head of Ushiromiya family from Kinzo.

2. All servants bearing the one-wing eagle symbol were helping or ordered to help this Beatrice to fulfill her plan, by Kinzo.

3. In addition, she had bribed Nanjo and Kumasawa to be her accomplices, who did not murder anyone but was supposed to provide fake alibi and lying to the rest of family.

4. This Beatrice had an intimate relationship with Maria, so each time she killed Maria in a way which could preserve her magical fantasy. The kill would be quick and merciful as well.

5. This Beatrice did urge Shannon to date with George because she was envious of young adults pursuiting their own love, even though she knew Shannon would die during the family meeting, and thus had a bad relationship with Kanon.

6. This Beatrice threw the letters-in-the-bottle into the sea before 4th Oct, the content inside the letters was not identical to the events described in EP1 and EP2. She also send the letters containing the bank card and password to at least Nanjo's, Kumasawa's relatives and Ange.

7. This Beatrice was extremely knowledgeable that she knew at least Hebrew, Italian, English (and Japanese, obviously). She was also influential in having numerous VIP safe deposits in "that renowned bank"

8. She did not tell anyone more about the plan and she supposed she would die after 5th Oct so she had to use such random way to deliver the letters to Nanjo's, Kumaswa's family and Ange. However, she at the same time wished that someone to solve the mystery in the name of Maria Ushiromiya. This wish was not absolute so she relied on the extremely haphazard method of "letters-in-the-bottle".

9. She cared so much about her family and the greater good. And she valued the family (not core family, but including all extended families) above personal desires (money, love, freedom, and even her children, etc).

10. The whole murder scheme was planned to test Ushiromiya family whether they could forgo their distrust, be united against Beatrice, and solving the epigraph TOGETHER so they could escape the final disaster scheduled at 00:01 on 6th Oct. The killings were incentives to urge them to solve the epigraph quickly. If they could not do so by the time limit, then the whole Ushiromiya family were erased (except Ange).

11. Ange was made to not come to Rokkenjima. If the Ushiromiya family could not solve the epigraph and all things went according to the plan, then Sumadera family would take all the wealth of Ushiromiya family.

12. Deep down in her heart, she knew that what she did was not right. She surreptitiously hoped that someone could expose the whole plan and stop her. Even if it meant killing her.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-16 at 10:40.
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Old 2009-11-16, 01:46   Link #3291
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
9. She cared so much about family and the greater good. And she valued the family (not core family, but including all extended family) above personal desires (love, freedom, and even her children, etc).

10. The whole murder scheme was planned to test Ushiromiya family whether they could forgo their distrust, be united against Beatrice, and solving the epigraph TOGETHER so they could escape the final disaster.
The rest is at least plausible, except these two conclusions. A murderer loving enough to test a family if they love each other enough (and if they didn't, would kill them) falls plainly into "psycho murderer" territory. They'd even have to be crazier than my "crazy Jessica" theory.
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Old 2009-11-16, 01:53   Link #3292
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The rest is at least plausible, except these two conclusions. A murderer loving enough to test a family if they love each other enough (and if they didn't, would kill them) falls plainly into "psycho murderer" territory. They'd even have to be crazier than my "crazy Jessica" theory.
You have watched Saw, right? Did the serial killer look like a psychotic maniac to you?

I would say Beatrice was an extremeist, to the extent that she was willing to kill people. From her perspective, giving a chance to Ushiromiya family was a mercy. From an outsider's perspective like mine, that was plainly crazy. (imagine Dlanor as well)

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Old 2009-11-16, 02:08   Link #3293
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Just to note something about what happens in the end: wouldn't the police have spotted and noted something as big as a landslide or a fire? Sure, they don't have a clue on what actually happened, but something as obvious as that would certainly not have been missed.

My theory: All deaths were caused by an human element. There's no way something like a landslide or a fire would have been missed. Same thing with obviously wrong things like a destroyed boiler.

Because, come on... The police can't be THAT incompetent.
The sight is listed as an accident. No one says the policed missed either a fire or a landside. Both or either would be enough to destroy a lot of the evidence and probably several of the bodies. At least for Ep3 there is no evidence of a crime. In other Episodes there doesn't seem to be enough left to identify bodies, crime or no crime. Finding a jawbone in Ep1 to identify Maria indicates something powerful since the bodies are broken apart.

Were the first Twilight victims of Ep1 found in the shed by the police? Their faces were smashed. Some to the point where it might be difficult to get a dental record from them, but there is enough other parts of the bodies left to identify them (fingerprints for example). So those bodies had to have also been destroyed even farther.

Basically something major happened so that the bodies are not identifiable for the police. Alternatives include burning the bodies. Dumping them into the ocean. Burying the bodies. Breaking up the bodies. The last one would be rather work intensive to take out 17-18 bodies so that none can be identified. Especially if the police arrived within a day of the crimes happening...and everyone is suppose to be dead...save maybe the culprit.

Is that much power possible for a lone surviving culprit? I can't say without knowing what they did or used. A natural disaster on the other hand...or something like a natural disaster, could destroy/remove the bodies...one way or another.
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Old 2009-11-16, 02:13   Link #3294
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
You have watched Saw, right? Did the serial killer look like a psychotic maniac to you?
Yes.

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I would say Beatrice was an extremeist, to the extent that she was willing to kill people. From her perspective, giving a chance to Ushiromiya family was a mercy. From an outsider's perspective like mine, that was plainly crazy. (imagine Dlanor as well)
And that is crazy. Its in the vein of "crazy stalker kills their loved one and stuffs their skins with cotton to be close to them" crazy. Its in the vein of "I love you so much I'll break your legs so you won't run away" crazy. Its simply nuts, in any definition.
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Old 2009-11-16, 03:08   Link #3295
Ithekro
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Such a crazy reasoning does not make sense in context with what is happening. Logically, their are more than one plot going on in these games. One plot is "Beatrice" and the epigraph. Another is the truth about Kinzo. A third and beyond are one of at least two blackmail plots and perhaps a murder plot. "Beatrice" might be in on the truth about Kinzo, and/or a murder plot. However, one "Beatrice" cannot be in on all the plots unless she's not central to them all. One mastermind does not come up with contradictory plots and executes them all at the same time, nor would have backup plans that contradict each other in terms of their end purpose.

However "Beatrice" might be someone that has be contacted by multiple parties about the different plots to get her involved in them. Thus she (or he maybe) is knowledgable about each plot...enough to write them down and put them into bottles. The things is...who would be contacted by each of the interested parties?

Party One: Truth of Kinzo. Origin is on the island
Party Two: Eva and Rudolf's bid to corner Krauss about the money.
Party Three: The epigraph and solving it.
Party Four: Krauss's attempt to evade Rudolf and Eva's blackmail plot.
Party Five (unconfirmed): A murder plot against the entire family.

Who is in a position to be useful to all these intrests? All of them could involve the servants, or at least some of the servants. All but Five could involve Rosa. As the youngest she could be approached by both sides between Rudolf/Eva and Krauss. Maria is the one into witchcraft. The cousins are likely out of the loop since the parents don't seem to involve any of them in the confrontation over the family's money nor Kinzo.

Gohda is likely loyal to Natsuhi and Krauss, since they hired him.
Chiyo is probably not considered all that trustworthy, but could be used by various factions.
Genji is loyal to Kinzo. I doubt he's help Rudolf or Eva's blackmail attempt.
Shannon is loyal to Kinzo, but young. She might be approached by other parties.
Kanon appears loyal to Kinzo, but is a bit hot-headed. He could be approached by other parties, but his cooperation would be specific.

As mentioned Rosa is sort of the one out of the family. Both Rudolf and Krauss could have approached her with an offer to help her out of any debts her company might have. She says she met "Beatrice" in 1967, thus she knows a lot more about the island than people think she does. In Ep3 she finds the gold just after Eva does. It is possible she solved it earlier, and was just following Eva..perhaps to see what Eva would so, or maybe something more violent..but Eva had a gun. Rosa having found the gold would make Skirt-Beatrice really easy to solve as her being Rosa after finding the gold. She's also shown to be a bit extreme in her mental states...at least to Maria. Rosa seems unstable. She likely wouldn't be in on the Kinzo plot...but she did say she talked with Kinzo in Ep2...even though that is not possible...since Kinzo is dead before each game starts.

Kyrie...sort of a lack of information. We know she's with Rudolf. We know she's likely the brains behind Rudolf's blackmail attempt against Krauss...also suspects Kinzo is dead. Was willing to stay with Rudolf as a mistress and later wife even after Azumu and Battler came about 18 years ago. Has the youngest cousin in the family (Ange). Disowned by her family...and she doesn't seem to care. Was to be the head of her family but instead marries Rudolf. While Battler does not call her mother, he seems to like her just fine. He doesn't seem to have any problems with her...all his anger is towards his father. Ange seems to remember her as a good mother...though Ange was six years old when Kyrie dies. Kyrie could not have been included into Krauss' circle. Since she suspects Kinzo is dead, she's not one of the ones that might hide it. If she isn't one of the ones hiding Kinzo being dead, than she's probably not "Beatrice" that is looking to have the family solve Kinzo's riddle...probably...she still could be that "Beatrice". However "Beatrice" seems to have already solved the riddle in Ep2, since there are three gold bars at the First Twilight...and Kryie dies that time around for sure. Kyrie could be involved in a plot to murder the whole family...but then the question is why? Her known connection to the family is Rudolf and Ange. While there is a certain amount of logic in her being the culprit is tha Ange is safe and would get the money, there is the disconnect in killing Rudolf whom she's been with for over 18 years even after the whole mess with Asumu and Battler. Plus there is the whole dying in the First Twilight in two arcs...but being awesome in two other arcs.

Is there anyone else that could be connected to multiple sides? The cousins are out unless one of them is going against the parents...either to solve the riddle or murder the family...they are all outside the blackmail and Kinzo plots. Everyone else has a side they are one and something they intend to get done.

Either Blackmail plot or the truth of Kinzo could turn into murder if the other side is pushed too far and/or cornered to the point of lashing out. However neither of the blackmail plots are related to "Beatrice's" desire for the family to solve the riddle (unless it is put down as a way to corner Krauss by taking his headship away on Kinzo's death...but Kyrie already had a plan for that without the epigraph, so that would be redundant). The plot about Kinzo may or may not be relate to the epigraph...depending on what the parties involved have in mind...and what Kinzo's actual will states.

And finally, a whole plot just to murder the entire family doesn't sound like it should come from the inside...yet someone seems to be following the epigraph as a planned murder plot. Thus someone has some idea ahead of time for this...but why? And it should only be the people on the island involved...should.

This again leaves us with "Beatrice". The one that was contacted by multiple parties and thus has plans for various situations. Also the one that wrote the letters, the notes in the bottles...and forwarded the money to survivors of the tragedy...before everything went down. Add to this that Ange is a last minute survivor. The fingers start to point to Kyrie. However not all the fingers can point to her since things happen that make it really hard for her to be the only "Beatrice". Specifically her death in Ep1 and Ep2. Follow this by Ep3 and the death of all the servants is a closed room fashion, and then everything seems to go to hell in terms of plotting. Then there is Ep4's total chaos. And Ep5.

It is interesting...is there just one mastermind like there is in Higurashi (even though those main murders have little to nothing to do with said mastermind), or are there multiple people involved...just different ones in different arcs.
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Old 2009-11-16, 08:02   Link #3296
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You have watched Saw, right? Did the serial killer look like a psychotic maniac to you?
.....At the risk of flaming, I would legitimately ask if something is wrong with your head if you would argue that Jigsaw was not a psychotic maniac.

Quote:
11. Ange was made to not come to Rokkenjima. If the Ushiromiya family could not solve the epigraph and all things went according to the plan, then Sumadera family would take all the wealth of Ushiromiya family.
And leave Ange in the care of the Sumaderas. Such a wonderful, loving woman, that Kyrie is, leaving Ange in the hands of that crazy bitch.

Quote:
2. Kyrie told Shannon to dress up as Beatrice and waited inside the mansion, Kyrie said she would remind Rosa about the weather before it was going to rain heavily. When Rosa ran out of the mansion, Shannon showed up.
God, what? Let's see whom I've seen you accuse at various points of being complicit in the murders. All the servants but Kanon, Nanjo, Rosa, Krauss, Kyrie. That's 8 out of the 17 people, which the family's going to unite when nearly half the people are murderers? You keep hurling people left and right in to explain this and that, and it gets silly after a while.

Quote:
5. This Beatrice did urge Shannon to date with George because she was envious of young adults pursuiting their own love, even though she knew Shannon would die during the family meeting, and thus had a bad relationship with Kanon.
You're going to have to explain how someone who shows up on the island once a year mangaed to convince Shannon to pursue a relationship with George.
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Old 2009-11-16, 08:03   Link #3297
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If you were talking about different plotlines, truely there were five of them:

1. Krauss wanted to cover up Kinzo's death, his accomplices are Natsuhi, Nanjo, one-winged eagle servants and Kumasawa (concerning her nosy character, it was unlikely she could not have discovered it) and Gohda (he should not know about Kinzo's death, but he was trusted by Krauss and Natsuhi.

2. Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf and Rosa plotting to extort money from Krauss. They do not care much about the Ushiromiya family but rather their own immediate families. Except Eva, the other three did not care about the who got the title of head of Ushiromiya family.

3. Real Beatrice: the one who wrote the letters and gave them to Maria, the one who urged the whole family to solve the epigraph before the typhoon ended.

4. Murderer Beatrice (could be (and should be) the same as the 3rd one): Who planned and murdered 17 people on Rokkenjima according to the epigraph. The ultimate beneficiary was Sumadera family. She was also the one who wrote the letters-in-the-bottle, sent the bank cards, and being Maria's master.

5. Kinzo: the intention of the epigraph, his wills. His own plan determined the action of the one-winged eagle servants.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-16 at 08:44.
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Old 2009-11-16, 08:13   Link #3298
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.....At the risk of flaming, I would legitimately ask if something is wrong with your head if you would argue that Jigsaw was not a psychotic maniac.


And leave Ange in the care of the Sumaderas. Such a wonderful, loving woman, that Kyrie is, leaving Ange in the hands of that crazy bitch.


God, what? Let's see whom I've seen you accuse at various points of being complicit in the murders. All the servants but Kanon, Nanjo, Rosa, Krauss, Kyrie. That's 8 out of the 17 people, which the family's going to unite when nearly half the people are murderers? You keep hurling people left and right in to explain this and that, and it gets silly after a while.


You're going to have to explain how someone who shows up on the island once a year mangaed to convince Shannon to pursue a relationship with George.
My point was: that Jigsaw had some horrible ideas and beliefs, but he planned all things rationally. Unlike some lunatic crazy serial killers. Jigsaw was the type of mastermind killer. So was Beatrice.

No, Kyrie was not a wonderful, nor a loving woman. My CURRENT hypothesis is that She prized family above everything, including her own children. Not that she did not care about her children, but she would sacrifice them if she weigh them against the whole family.

I modified my hypothesis from time to time. So if it confused you who the hell I am accusing of accomplicing with Beatrice, sorry. Possibly due to my poor communication skills. Briefly speaking, you have to read my latest posts to know what i am positing currently.

How? Because Beatrice went to Rokkenjima not only at family meetings. The simpliest explanation...

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-16 at 08:25.
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Old 2009-11-16, 08:35   Link #3299
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Imagine two different scenarios:

1. Shannon was dressing up as suit-Beatrice, waiting outside in the garden (or inside the mansion) for Rosa to run out for Maria. Fortunately, Kyrie pointed out it was going to rain heavily to Rosa, so that Shannon (and Maria) did not need to get showered in rain.

2. Kyrie told Shannon to dress up as Beatrice and waited inside the mansion, Kyrie said she would remind Rosa about the weather before it was going to rain heavily. When Rosa ran out of the mansion, Shannon showed up.

Which one was more plausible?
None of them. Shannon is seen serving tea to the adults in the very scene Rosa rushes to Maria. There was no time for Shannon to dress up as Beatrice, even less to get a make up to resemble her. It is either that shannon wasn't disguised at all or it wasn't Shannon but someone else.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Oh I remember now. Yeah I see what you mean.

But at the same time you have to wonder - Kyrie says the Beato she saw looked like she was in her 20's, but Shannon is still pretty young looking.
Well... by that reasoning if a 4 year difference is too much, then who can possibly be that Beatrice?

There is only one (female) person who is closer in age, and that's Jessica.

If not then you'd have to think it is an X person.
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Old 2009-11-16, 08:43   Link #3300
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None of them. Shannon is seen serving tea to the adults in the very scene Rosa rushes to Maria. There was no time for Shannon to dress up as Beatrice, even less to get a make up to resemble her. It is either that shannon wasn't disguised at all or it wasn't Shannon but someone else.
IIRC, they resumed the "discussion" after Shannon left, and Kyrie and Rosa continued to talk for some time after it.

And Rosa had been embracing Maria and crying for a bit of time. IF Shannon rushed to do the make-up just after she left, it could be possible that she was the impostor.

Fortunately, the dressing of Beatrice this time was not the long dress...
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