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Old 2013-09-02, 03:05   Link #33021
Sauzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I'm of the opinion that Yasu manifests as a character every time we see one of Shannon, Kanon or Beatrice, because she's only ever one person acting out a role, not somebody with multiple personalities. There's no violation of Knox there.
Except for all the times that we see either two of them together in conflict with each other.
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Old 2013-09-02, 03:40   Link #33022
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Except for all the times that we see either two of them together in conflict with each other.
That's true in a way, but the times we see them in conflict are all fantasy scenes, and fantasy scenes are fantasy scenes for a reason. They're showing one person's internal conflict. We're shown that locked room murder where, in fantasy, Shannon and Beatrice fought each other and Beatrice won in the end, but in "reality" Shannon murdered everybody in the room.
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Old 2013-09-02, 04:01   Link #33023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
That's true in a way, but the times we see them in conflict are all fantasy scenes, and fantasy scenes are fantasy scenes for a reason. They're showing one person's internal conflict. We're shown that locked room murder where, in fantasy, Shannon and Beatrice fought each other and Beatrice won in the end, but in "reality" Shannon murdered everybody in the room.
I wouldn't even make it that easy. In reality "Yasu", if it's their true name then Yasuda Sayo, killed the people in that room. Those conflicts show how internally torn she was about where to go, each person showing an option of a future path, the other having to "die" in order for that path to be pursued.
Shannon being ready to die as soon as she got the ring showed her insecurity whether her relationship with George could ever advance beyond this moment. Kanon refusing to die as soon as he admitted his growing feelings for Jessica shows that there is still an urge to continue beyond this one moment. Beatrice wanting to kill them all shows her disgust and readiness to just give up on people.

Every choice that "Yasu" makes forms her into a different person, and her worldview is taking this to the extreme of actually transforming her.
I never found this exceptionally hard to get, sometimes I myself feel like this.
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Old 2013-09-02, 04:35   Link #33024
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Yep, well said.
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Old 2013-09-02, 10:32   Link #33025
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Like, it sounds (again, to me) like we read Romeo and Juliet, and you're trying to convince me that because the actions of those two characters was so foolish, clearly the whole thing was a plot by Benvolio to become the Montague heir, as he's the only survivor, and Romeo went along with it because he thought making out with Juliet would totally get back at that hussy, Rosalind, and didn't think he would die for realsies. And, I'm like, well, the text doesn't explicitly say that's NOT what's happening, but ... ... it's a strange reading.
Idea for a mystery: Hamlet. Fortinbras arrives at Elsinore. Horatio explains what just happened. Fortinbras declares that Horatio is lying, and has actually murdered everyone in an incredibly convoluted plot... and he can prove it! I mean come on... all those mysterious "suicides" and "accidents?" A ghost? Hamlet just happens to escape en route to England without a man on the outside? You'll have to try harder, Horatio. Beatrice could do a lot better than that.

Anyway I wouldn't read too much into the multi-character nature of the stories because they are, in the end, stories. Not only can multiple characters in a story represent internal conflict in a character, but they could also merely give voice to internal conflict of the author. After all, the killer of the message bottle stories and subsequent Forgeries seems pretty committed to her task (and OC etc. don't suggest her planning can be stopped), but maybe the writer of the stories lacks the same level of resolve and gives voice to it through the characters of Shannon and Kanon. Remember, Shannon and Kanon pretty much always lose, and generally always were going to. It's more what they're saying than that they're saying it.
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Old 2013-09-02, 12:45   Link #33026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Remember, Shannon and Kanon pretty much always lose, and generally always were going to. It's more what they're saying than that they're saying it.
When you said that I remembered especially Shannon's and Kanon's dialogues and monologues from EP1 and 2, the two which are supposedly written by the original owner of those personae. Especially Kanon's stand in the boiler room during Legend undermines the thing you said about the quality of winning or losing quite heavy.
Kanon says that Beatrice apparently forgot the rules of a roulette herself, making clear that he is intimate with the function of the game. There is not only rouge and noir, but he wants to become the zero in her game. There are many rules for roulette, but zero almost always means loss for the player, the best chance in some rules is to bet on all or nothing and play again or lose half of his bet. When looking closer at what this implies for the game is though that by him not playing a certain part there is a chance of Beatrice's game failing.
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Old 2013-09-02, 13:35   Link #33027
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Well, yeah, he says that...But then he's instantly killed and the golden butterflies sneer at him as if his attempt at resistance was completely futile. He certainly thought there was a chance, but it didn't seem like Beatrice ever really felt threatened by him.
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Old 2013-09-02, 17:05   Link #33028
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I wonder if Kanon's stance in the boiler room reflects Yasu's idea that her plan is going to fail anyway. After all with Shannon's death there's an even lower possibility to discover if Battler remember his promise as he might think it's unlikely Battler will go and say out loud 'oh, now I remember I promised to Shannon this and that'. In addition to this, with the mere act of killing people Yasu tosses herself in a street from which she can't return.
Even if Battler were to remember his promise and even solve the epitaph and even stop her from killing further and even declaring he still love her and whatever else... how this would save Yasu from jail?
Would it be okay for her to be loved by Battler when she's in a jail? Would it be possible for Battler to love her if she's in a jail?

In a way Yasu's situation is similar to Ange.
Ange had many wishes, to have her family back, to truly discover who killed them, to find proof it was Eva who killed everyone but the option to pick only one choice and everyone seems to tell her if she pick the wrong choice things will take a turn for worse.

PieceYasu too had many wishes.
To be loved by George, to have a love relation with Jessica, to have Battler remember her and keep his promise, to avenge herself. If she'll pick up the wrong option things will take a turn for worse and, as Ange who won't be able to unlearn the truth, Yasu too won't be able to return back.
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Old 2013-09-02, 18:23   Link #33029
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, yeah, he says that...But then he's instantly killed and the golden butterflies sneer at him as if his attempt at resistance was completely futile. He certainly thought there was a chance, but it didn't seem like Beatrice ever really felt threatened by him.
Yes, this tends to be the case with Shannon or Kanon's defiance. They can't win, and their actions are never an actual threat to Beatrice. Same thing with EVA-Beatrice or Goldsmith, even when it appears someone else is running the show Beatrice can put them down with relative certainty. With Shannon/Kanon, it just doesn't even seem particularly fair. So yeah, for all Kanon may have said in that scene it didn't do him any good and Beatrice's plans in Legend did not fail but in fact appear to have gone off with nary a hitch.

At least within the stories, the resolve of the "Beatrice" culprit to kill is unshakeable. Shannon and Kanon are just theater, basically. Furniture indeed.
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Old 2013-09-03, 06:33   Link #33030
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In addition to this, with the mere act of killing people Yasu tosses herself in a street from which she can't return.
Yes. It's evidence for murder game theory. I'll bring up some other evidence for the new faces.

First, an excerpt from the letter from the golden witch in Legend:

――Special clause――

When the contract ends, Beatrice will have the right to collect the gold and the interest. However, if a person who discloses the hidden gold of the contract appears, Beatrice must eternally and completely abdicate of this right …From now on, the collection of the interest will be performed but, if whoever one person among everyone can satisfy the special clause, everything will be returned including the part already collected.


This is a promise to return the lives of the "murdered".

And in EP2, Beatrice said I keep my promises.

Also, according to the epitaph if it is solved:

The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time.


Resurrection "magic" is easiest to do when the person being "resurrected" was never dead to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
At least within the stories, the resolve of the "Beatrice" culprit to kill is unshakeable. Shannon and Kanon are just theater, basically. Furniture indeed.
I always feel like the "inevitability" of it all points to post-incident authorship. Beatrice always wins because tragedy has already won. From the standpoint of the future it's the inevitable outcome.

"The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will."
-Willard H. Wright

Last edited by Wanderer; 2013-09-04 at 04:04. Reason: "golden witch", not "golden which"
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Old 2013-09-03, 08:19   Link #33031
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I always feel like the "inevitability" of it all points to post-incident authorship. Beatrice always wins because tragedy has already won. From the standpoint of the future it's the inevitable outcome.
I just wish we had more development of that point. Nobody questions the pre-incident authorship idea, it seems to just be assumed, but it's an interesting thing to think about. However, there are some points against it. Beatrice seems to react as if it was a whim thing in Battler's game in ep8 for example, which is an odd attitude to have if she were a post-incident author (because then she'd know what effect those would have). Plus Eva not surviving, although Eva doesn't survive Alliance's game either.

I'm not sure we were ever meant to question that information, or possibly any of the future information... which is rather odd, because a lot of it is vague or incredibly unreliable. Apparently questioning the witch only extends to her actual games.
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Old 2013-09-03, 22:55   Link #33032
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I would guess in prime that there was a murder mystery game, it would have been immediately evident that everyone was really alive. That part can go off without a hitch, reunite Battler and Yasu and everything else can still fall apart quite easily given the scenario.

Beato ep 8 is somewhat unreliable by the mere fact she is saying she wrote ep 3 and 4 (as examples of losing, examples of Battler not remembering). This may have just been a ploy to indicate the motivation behind the message bottles in general, but it is also somewhat false.

I have two questions that are merely opinion gaugers:

With ep 7 being the last ep as far as the public is concerned (assumedly the last one Tohya had involvement in), does that mean that ep 8 was possibly sent directly to Ange? Or more likely just her internal thoughts

AND

If Ryu had gone ahead as planned, making ep 3 worse than ep 2 (he said by using multiple accomplices, so a likely ep 4 scenario, with some of the mysteries from 5 and 6 somehow sprinkled in), do you think it would have taken people longer to guess kinzo was dead? Before it was explicitly stated that magic scenes that were not observed did not happen, Kinzo coming into the family conference ep 4 style could have been hard to deal with.
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Old 2013-09-04, 02:03   Link #33033
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Also, thought of the day:

Considering all of the things that Yasu was torn about, apparently dating her cousins was not one of them?
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Old 2013-09-04, 05:36   Link #33034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Beato ep 8 is somewhat unreliable by the mere fact she is saying she wrote ep 3 and 4 (as examples of losing, examples of Battler not remembering).
I still wonder what that was actually implying, because on the one hand EP8 manga Beato says that she imagined all these possible events that could occur between her and Battler, among them EP3 and 4, but in the end EP5's end of him understanding her and her magic apparently happened. Yet at the same time she admits that only two message bottles ever reached the shore.

The only thing that I could think of and kind of always thought is, that Beato is more of a concept governing the message board, a governor of the magical side who has been put into place by the original author and kind of works like an automatic clock.
It would explain why she "dies" once Battler understands what and who she is, because he understands that he was playing against somebody who is not even alive anymore.

Quote:
With ep 7 being the last ep as far as the public is concerned (assumedly the last one Tohya had involvement in), does that mean that ep 8 was possibly sent directly to Ange? Or more likely just her internal thoughts
I would assume that, if we tried to explain it rationally, it would be more of Ange's own doubts and questions driven to an extreme. I always assumed that she was already subconsciously aware of the chance of Hachijo Tohya being Battler, but was imagining what that would actually imply.
The central question is, why would my brother protect this illusion? Why doesn't he tell me the truth?

But Ryukishi said as well, the story changes depending on the angle it is read from.

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Also, thought of the day:

Considering all of the things that Yasu was torn about, apparently dating her cousins was not one of them?
Well, cousin marriage is only outlawed in China, most American states and some Eastern European countries. Middle Europe, South America, Canada, and even Japan allows cousin marriage.
In 1983 the number of cousin marriages in Japan was apparently as high as 1.6% (about 200.000 couples).

Also, Yasu didn't even know till 1985 that they were her cousins. Who knows, couldn't it be that this fueled her desperation even more?
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Old 2013-09-04, 06:59   Link #33035
GoldenLand
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I'm still (very slowly) writing the forgery I started on some time ago, and the past few days I reached the point where I've found myself going "Ahh it's useless, it's all useless! I have to have a plan of the mansion and its surroundings!" and therefore the past few days I've started trying to draw one up and reading through game scripts to try to make sure I've got all the rooms listed. There don't seem to be any existing adequate maps of the building at all. All the ones I've seen miss out a lot of rooms or have other errors.

Anyway, I would be much obliged if anyone has an opinion about this point: we know that the guest rooms in the mansion all have individual bathrooms (with baths and toilets). But what about the rooms that aren't guest rooms, like Jessica's, Krauss' or Natsuhi's? Do you think they'd have their own ones? I'm leaning towards assuming they do, but I've yet to find any mention of them in the game scripts or any sign of them in the manga art.

The guest house has a bathroom for each guest room but also two general toilets (one for men, one for women) with a number of stalls, and there's reason to believe that there are also non-room-specific toilets in the mansion too. The guest house doesn't seem to have a bathroom in the servant's room or the servant's waiting room. As for actual bathtubs, I have to assume there is one somewhere in both the guest house and the mansion which isn't attached to a guest room or a specific person's room, because at least the servants would need access to them.

...I wonder if I might have been spending too much time on the minutiae of the mansion and guest house if I'm looking at them in this much detail before I've even started sketching the plans.

Let's see, was there anything else...Does anyone remember if there's a suggestion there's a secret passage leading from the mansion itself to the underground VIP room? And speaking of the entrance to that room, did we ever find out where the entrance activated by the mechanism was?

Genji gives Beatrice the key to the underground VIP room and tells her that "If you use this, you won't need to use the more complicated device." (the device being the method she solved the epitaph, presumably). This implies that there's an easier way to get there, but I have no idea where that could be.

And I'd like to check on the structure of the underground passage and see if there's info I've missed. So: as I understand it, there's a passageway going from Kuwadorian to the underground VIP room, and this tunnel has a lockable grate, and somewhere around there, there's another tunnel which goes off to the submarine cave that Battler escaped the island from.
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Old 2013-09-04, 09:10   Link #33036
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More on the cousin point:

It could even be that while Yasu IS the baby from the cliff, the baby from the cliff is NOT the child of Beatrice II. It could be that Kinzo created another "Beatrice" by throwing some random orphan into another trap of a life. Though from his perspective, the move of giving some random orphan to Natsuhi and worshiping the ground Lion walks on don't make much sense.

Guess Yasu just wasn't that put off by it.
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Old 2013-09-04, 09:11   Link #33037
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A couple points about this generally:

Regarding Bathrooms: Since the mansion is based on a real house that is actually a bit smaller than some of the space might imply, my guess is it has about the same number of bathrooms as a house of that particular style... which would generally mean either bathrooms for each bedroom or (more commonplace with that style and era in western design) communal bathrooms nearby in the hallways. We do know that Kinzo's suite has a bathroom, even though the game art does not show his living area at all in any of the shots of his office.

However, just looking at the pictures it doesn't seem like Natsuhi and Jessica's rooms have bathrooms (or at least, there's nowhere I can see that there would be a bathroom door). That doesn't mean there isn't one, and in fact it'd be rather odd if a master bedroom didn't have a master bathroom, but it isn't said. In-game there are only generic bathroom backgrounds with no context.

I'd use your judgment call on this, but normally a house doesn't have gender-stratified bathrooms. A house that's now a museum might, but most actual residences just have... bathrooms.

Regarding The Tunnels: This is purely speculation, but my guess is that the tunnels are structured such that Kuwadorian is near to or even built on the surface directly above the submarine pen, which would itself be in a natural sea cavern and probably built slightly into the rock (this would also be the second dock Kawabata mentions, as otherwise it would be very easy to find). That's the main base area though; the tunnels seem to have been built for storage of the warheads in a secure area, which would explain why the blast radius is outside of there.

Munitions tend to be stored someplace cooler and more dry, so they'd want to be away from the surface. I assume Kinzo had little time or inclination to move the warhead storage, so it's probably further toward where the mansion is than not, although it probably isn't as close to the shore as that (1km is a large radius, so the blast could originate with the mansion area toward the edge of that radius and still be sufficiently destructive). The trigger mechanism in the clock is also probably reasonably close to the warhead storage magazine because wiring something like that through a humid water-filled tunnel over a kilometer sounds like a good way to not have it go off after a few decades.

I'm not sure of this, because it seems odd to cart things over such a long distance, but if the tunnel is relatively straight then hand carts could be used to wheel the torpedoes back and forth, and could also have been used to transport the gold from the docks to an unused storage room (which could eventually become the bedroom).

The entrance itself, the one that has to be found by solving the epitaph etc., is probably an emergency exit from the tunnel system, inconspicuous and initially probably just a man-sized opening in a hillside (although Kinzo probably widened and reinforced it). Those weren't that uncommon in Japanese tunnel bases in the Pacific, and it makes sense they'd add one to the far end in case the Allies attacked or bombed the submarine pen and the sailors were trapped. Knowing where that exit was, Kinzo could choose where to have the mansion built such that he could access it easily.

So my guess is there's an entrance which was tunneled up to during the war which is where the person who solves the epitaph enters the tunnels, a smallish series of tunnels leading to the gold room (which is an unused or repurposed storage room), the torpedo magazine is probably just a little ways further in, then a long tunnel goes to the submarine pen with an additional system of tunnels (or a staircase, or something) built after the fact to go to Kuwadorian, unless Kuwadorian was just sited on top of yet another emergency exit to the tunnels, which is entirely possible.

We know the base is outside of the blast radius because it still existed on the morning of the 6th, and it probably still exists into 1996 because I don't know how anyone would've come up with Kinzo's submarine story if they didn't know there actually was evidence of a base there. That's why I'd site it close to Kuwadorian. Thus, the only conclusion I can reach regarding the location of the gold room and warheads is that they were placed at the end of a long tunnel for storage or safety reasons, and the mansion was intentionally built closer to the storage part of the base than the dock itself.

As far as I know there's no passage within the house to the underground, as if there was I would think Kinzo's wife would've found it at some point since she was apparently quite paranoid about where he kept going. More likely you have to leave the mansion and go to the tunnel entrance, but perhaps it gets you through a door or grate where the epitaph puzzle requires you to take a more circuitous route in the earlier tunnels. Solving the epitaph only really seems to give you the knowledge of where the entrance is, as it'd otherwise be concealed in the forest and difficult to find by chance. Since Genji (and later Yasu) already know where the entrance is, they could just walk there directly. For all we know, it's actually really close to the house and the chapel just sends you the long way.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2013-09-04, 19:03   Link #33038
jjblue1
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I would guess in prime that there was a murder mystery game, it would have been immediately evident that everyone was really alive. That part can go off without a hitch, reunite Battler and Yasu and everything else can still fall apart quite easily given the scenario.
In a way the searching game used in Ep 8 manga version and all the tricks used during it, really seem to suggest more an innocent game being played than multiple murders taking place.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Beato ep 8 is somewhat unreliable by the mere fact she is saying she wrote ep 3 and 4 (as examples of losing, examples of Battler not remembering). This may have just been a ploy to indicate the motivation behind the message bottles in general, but it is also somewhat false.
Well, theoretically it could be true if one of the following cases is true:
- Yasu is Ikuko
- the games 3&4 weren't written by Tohya, he managed to get his hands on 2 extra message bottles and never let people know he'd found them, then he used them as a basis to write his tales.
- the names and certain common themes are coincidental
- the Beato talking is just Tohya/Battler fantasy/muse/immaginary friend/ sparring partner while reading/writing mysteries. Although she represent Yasu she's not Yasu so she could 'do' things Yasu couldn't do
- in Prime Yasu actually showed/explained to Battler some of the games she wrote and somehow they remained stuck within him so Tohya unconsciously used their elements in his books... without realizing they aren't his ideas but memories of his past life.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I have two questions that are merely opinion gaugers:

With ep 7 being the last ep as far as the public is concerned (assumedly the last one Tohya had involvement in), does that mean that ep 8 was possibly sent directly to Ange?
It's an interesting theory. Tohya might have refused to meet Ange then he might have regretted it and send her a tale just for her.

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Or more likely just her internal thoughts
Generally I think Ep 8 is a giant simbological representation of the inner battle going on in Ange but that's just me.

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If Ryu had gone ahead as planned, making ep 3 worse than ep 2 (he said by using multiple accomplices, so a likely ep 4 scenario, with some of the mysteries from 5 and 6 somehow sprinkled in), do you think it would have taken people longer to guess kinzo was dead? Before it was explicitly stated that magic scenes that were not observed did not happen, Kinzo coming into the family conference ep 4 style could have been hard to deal with.
We'll never know. Sometimes you might think something is hard to guess but you end up unconsciously giving hints that help others to guess even faster than if you'd spelled out the solution for them.
Without knowing his plans is impossible to judge and even if we did as we already know the solution... it would be a little harder to judge. We would need someone who doesn't know the solution to 'test things for us'.

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Also, thought of the day:

Considering all of the things that Yasu was torn about, apparently dating her cousins was not one of them?
Many manga series depict as okay for cousins in Japan to get married so maybe that's true and that's not a problem for her. The problem might come from the fact they aren't just her cousins, she's also their aunt/uncle and if I'm not wrong this is definitely forbidden in Japan.

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More on the cousin point:

It could even be that while Yasu IS the baby from the cliff, the baby from the cliff is NOT the child of Beatrice II. It could be that Kinzo created another "Beatrice" by throwing some random orphan into another trap of a life. Though from his perspective, the move of giving some random orphan to Natsuhi and worshiping the ground Lion walks on don't make much sense.

Guess Yasu just wasn't that put off by it.
LOL, maybe Beatrice was pregnant when she fell and he believed the random orphan is the reincarnation of Beatrice's baby.

With Kinzo one can never tell. ^_-
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Old 2013-09-04, 19:52   Link #33039
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On the bathroom situation:

The guest house does have gender specific bathrooms as it was built as a resort.

It would be unusual for the master bedroom not to have an ensuite, though I'll admit I don't know about older style mansions. However, I always thought that Krauss and Natsuhi had separate rooms, and she would definitely give him the master. Though bathing often falls by the wayside in Umineko, they certainly never do it in the morning before getting dressed. Maybe the Japanese are night bathers?
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Old 2013-09-04, 20:25   Link #33040
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Regarding "marriage between cousins": How is this different from all the incest marriages between royalties in the Medivals and later? Europe was basically completely led by inbreds at that time. Maybe Yasu even used that as an excuse to overcome her reluctance.
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