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Old 2013-10-06, 00:17   Link #33101
ALPHA-Beatrice
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I have a much simpler and cleaner theory on what happened on Rokkenjima. If we recall, in the 7th game, there was the shootout between the Japanese and Italians. Lion and Will learn of this "magically" from Kinzo.

Blue Truth: This was recorded in a Diary, or perhaps even in the Book of Single Truth. Battler and Yasu were exposed to the truth during the First day of 1986. They decided to re-enact the entire scenario, up to the point of Battler "kidnapping" Beatrice and escaping.
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Old 2013-10-06, 00:35   Link #33102
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Blue Truth: This was recorded in a Diary, or perhaps even in the Book of Single Truth. Battler and Yasu were exposed to the truth during the First day of 1986. They decided to re-enact the entire scenario, up to the point of Battler "kidnapping" Beatrice and escaping.
Interesting theory! I don't think I've heard that before.

What do you propose as Battler and Yasu's reason for choosing to re-enact the scenario? And in that theory, would the deaths of the other people on the island be a deliberate part of that re-enactment, and if so, why? And if not, why did the deaths happen?
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Old 2013-10-06, 01:06   Link #33103
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Interesting theory! I don't think I've heard that before.

What do you propose as Battler and Yasu's reason for choosing to re-enact the scenario? And in that theory, would the deaths of the other people on the island be a deliberate part of that re-enactment, and if so, why? And if not, why did the deaths happen?
Hm, allow me to re-write. Yasu wanted to re-enact the scene, with Battler figuring out Yasu's intentions by the time the Ninth Twilight ended.(As seen in the 5th game, and as Will said in Beatrice's funeral: Battler didn't make it in time)

As theorized by others(and so I'll plagarize for my theory), Yasu possibly brought off some of the family members to play dead. That may have been part of the re-enactment. I propose that the 4th game is the true events of what happened on Prime(Natsuhi had 'Kinzo' announce that the grandchildren would inherit it), they probably planned on rigging it for Jessica. But what happened was, someone discovered the plot and wanted the gold for themselves, really killing the fake participants

In my original interpretation(which I admit isn't all that strong, nor did I have a backstory for it). I'd say that Battler and Yasu did it as some kind of mystery, or as a tribute to her mother Beatrice. Or perhaps, it just sounded romantic to them.
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Old 2013-10-06, 06:14   Link #33104
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Erika-Ange theory for October 6.

Happy October 6. everyone
I'd like to post the theory me and my friend made through hard work to commemorate the anniversary of Umineko. I don't know if it's already stated or obvious for some of you, but we reached this conclusion on our own and feel free to comment on it either supporting or denying the theory. Actually I’d be more than happy to start a long debate about it.
I don't think it's surprising but I don’t have time to read all the past contents of this topic generated over 3-4 years (but I will definitely read it somewhen though).
This theory is about Erika's very existence since it is hard to place her if we are looking from the real world perspective and the whole topic is up to debate.
The theory is based on the Shkanon line of thoughts, I won’t explain the basic stuff!

Theories

-Erika as the young girl who fell off a boat
I don't really want to deny the possibility of she being a totally individual person who might really have been there at Rokkenjima the time the murders occured. A new human character on the island is unprecedented up to EP5 thus handling the reasonings about her freely - if we still stay true to the main context of umineko - is possible. Actually Erika's accident could've happened out of the cat box. Genji was able to contact the world so we can conclude that Erika’s accident is either happened while the catbox haven’t even been established or it is already inside the cat box even though it happened out of the island (similar to Ange’s fictional future, which is based on reality). The problem with this theory is that the clues are significantly limited but it is not hard to imagine Battler getting information in the future about a girl who fell out of a ship just before the murders happened and he couldn’t decide if she was present or not due to his circumstances we all know. Anyway this is also a fascinating theory for me but isn’t the one I will be talking about.


-Erika magic (role played by someone)
This is a really tough topic, because some people really think that this is also a possibility... Since battler on the chess board could meet her from early chiru this means that the whole theory’s base is uncertain, also this would be a proof of the theory I already mentioned. It is impossible that someone is dressing up as Erika and play her part since she interacts with everyone else in front of other people including Battler. Since I can’t answer this contradiction I just leave it up to you guys


-Erika and Ange
Okay so I get to the main point and this theory is based on the idea that Battler is writing the episodes we read. Beatrice also wrote a few episodes, the first 2 I assume.
I think Erika is the manifestation of Ange’s will and personality - which wants to find the truth at all cost - in the books including both the magical plane and the chess board. First of all we can seperate the episodes Battler and Beatrice wrote. It is almost certain that Beatrice wrote more than 1 episodes and threw it into the ocean. As Umineko being a compilation of forgeries it is one of the hardest part for us readers to seperate reality from the contents of the books inside the story aka fiction based on Battler’s hazy memories. I am sure people found at least 2 of Beatrice’s works according to all the information we acquired about witch hunters throught EP4-8. The difference between the first 2 and all other episodes are apparent and implies that the authors are 2 different person. For example only the EP3-8 contain information such as Eva’s survival, which are only observable if the one who wrote the forgery have survived the murders and we know Beatrice hadn’t. There is also possibility that Beatrice just made a good guess but Ange is also a good example. From EP3 Ange appears in every single episode and has a great effect on our thinking and should be called the 2nd heroine of Umineko. But Ange did not hold any significance from Beatrice’s perspective (but from Battler’s) so it would be rather strange if she had written so many about her. Here I would also mention that in my opinion all the future scenes with Ange are also part of the forgeries, presenting us some variants about what could’ve happened with Ange after the murders. I’d exclude the last one where we have to choose from the trick and magic ending because those are real variants which occour in accordance to our choice.
Anyway my conclusion is that EP1-2 was written by Beatrice and EP3-8 by Battler.

Now the hardcore fans would already spot the lie in the previous statements. Ange did not appear in EP5. So now I am getting down to all the clues about Ange and Erika being the same person, because that would answer this contradiction.

Clues

-Ange appears in every EP excluding 1,2,5. It is obvious that Beatrice did not think that Ange was a significant character. She is a little kid and also couldn’t make it to the family conference because of her illness. But EP 5 is a mistery, combo breaker. Every other episode centers around Ange since she is the survivor, the witch and detective of future. We get to know how dramatic this situation is through Ange’s eyes. Battler was thinking a lot about his little sister and I believe the forgeries were also dedicated to her, that’s why it is so peculiar that Ange did not appear in a whole episode. This is a really indirect and vague reason why I think Ange’s abscene from EP5 is a clue towards Ange and Erika being the same since it all summs up well if they are the same person.

-Bernkastel was a key character of the story’s magical side and only 2 of her subordinates appeared. Ange and Erika, and they both are breaking many rules like ’You cannot place someone on the chessboard who couldn’t have been there’.

-Erika is a hybrid of Bernkastel’s and Ange’s appearance. Erika’s hair style is the same as Ange’s just a bit longer and blue like Bernkastel’s. Erika’s clothes were borrowed from Jessica so I don’t really give this part much significance but Ange’s and Erika’s ribbons are identical and unique, just their color what doesn’t match, everyone else has totally different kind of ribbon or necktie.

-Their names. 右代宮 縁寿 (Ushiromiya Ange)
縁 can stand for ’border’ and 寿 can stand for ’long age’
古戸 ヱリカ (Furudo Erika)
Literally 古 means ’old’ and 戸 means ’door’
So we can find the connection between ’long aged border’ and ’old door’

-In every episode either Ange or Erika meets a bad ending which are all fictionals in my opinion.
ep3: Ange jumps down from the top of the building and dies
ep4: Ange becomes a chunk of meat
ep5: Erika gets pierced by blue stakes while suffers defeat from Battler
ep6: Battler and Beatrice kill Erika and in the meanwhile Ange gets going to Rokkenjima where she will die if she doesn’t give up on searching the truth and she herself becomes a murderer.
ep7: Ange becomes a chunk of meat yet again
ep8: Ange is in the center of the trick ending and miraculously she meets Erika in her delusions even though Erika should be solely fictional character and the Ange from this world has no direct connection to the chess board or magic plane thus ever meeting with Erika before is impossible, she shouldn’t even be able to imagine her. Even that much is questionable if she is the same Ange as the one who stopped by Aurora’s house in EP6. Also they say „GOOD” at the same time giving the perfect last words for the trick ending. Not to mention Ange takes on Erika’s style and thinking in the last scenes.
Well the ep8 endings might not be fictional but both are possibilities in my personal opinion. Thats why it is so odd that Ange can meet Erika in this scene.

-There are only two witches in the whole story who share the same title, Erika and Ange. If Ange can get over all what happened, she abandons her title as the witch of truth also abandoning the bad side of her, Erika. This is why Erika doesn’t appear in the good ending of EP8, the magic ending.

-Only two people appeared on the chessboard without the possibility of being there in reality and they were Erika and Ange. I’d say Ange is the one single exception who can be placed on the board and Erika is a part of Ange so she can be placed too. Anyway they have too many stuff in common like how they look like, how they behave and what happens to them.

-We can find some of Ange’s behaviour patterns in Erika. Like Erika’s attitude towards Battler. It is known that Ange holds a grudge against Battler for not returning to her, after all he could’ve done it. Erika is the antagonist Battler fighting through EP5-6 but she still wants to get Battler back from Beatrice with the marriage etc. These kind of actions would be triggered by similar emotional background to Ange
Also Erika’s childish way of quarreling with Maria might represent Ange’s past where she was banished from Mariage Sorciere.
And they both use english phrases frequently.

-When little Ange faces black Battler, the two who save her are EVA and Erika. Ange’s relationship with EVA is clear. How comes Erika was teaming up with EVA? It can be answered if we look from the magical perspective and just let it slide saying they are comrades but if we look from the reality perspective it would be a clue pointing out that Ange and Erika has some kind of thight relation.

That would be it for now We've made it about a year ago thus I might forgot some clues but if I remember any more I'll add it later

Last edited by Andor-sama; 2013-10-06 at 10:26.
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Old 2013-10-06, 09:17   Link #33105
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Originally Posted by Andor-sama View Post
So now I am getting down to all the clues about Ange and Erika being the same person, because that would answer this contradiction.
I actually made this connection in a post before, though not in as much details, and I really like what you (or you two) did there. I'm definitely in on the idea that, at least, Ange and Erika are closely tied together, which you also mentioned is hinted in the Trick ending.

I actually see this all over EP8, and if we take Chiru also as an illustration of Ange's journey from right after the message hit her to the point where she became bitter and lost it, then her encounters with Erika in EP8 make a lot of sense.

When we consider the scene where she is saved by EVA and Erika as even more metaphorical then we could understand it in a way, that this illustrates how the creation of the Rudolph-branch-family culprit theory destroyed Ange but what saved her was (A) the possibility of Eva's guilt no matter how unlikely (personified by EVA as in EP3) and (B) her own conviction into solving this mystery in her own way, which transformed into Furudo Erika.

This actually gives EP6 a very interesting, almost slightly perverse new perspective, in the way that Erika wants not only to destroy Beatrice and blame somebody on the island, she also wants to marry Battler, she wants to make him her's alone in the form of a puppet. This is kind of what Ange is doing in the way that she does not want to let go of her ideal of Battler, she tries to freeze him in this momentary light that she got of him and decide everything else about the incident by herself.
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Old 2013-10-06, 10:24   Link #33106
Andor-sama
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I actually see this all over EP8, and if we take Chiru also as an illustration of Ange's journey from right after the message hit her to the point where she became bitter and lost it, then her encounters with Erika in EP8 make a lot of sense.

When we consider the scene where she is saved by EVA and Erika as even more metaphorical then we could understand it in a way, that this illustrates how the creation of the Rudolph-branch-family culprit theory destroyed Ange but what saved her was (A) the possibility of Eva's guilt no matter how unlikely (personified by EVA as in EP3) and (B) her own conviction into solving this mystery in her own way, which transformed into Furudo Erika.
I did not get this far with Ange and Erika's encounters but my mind is blown with this idea. I should probably go through chiru searching for the connections how the books display Ange's developement.
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Old 2013-10-06, 15:11   Link #33107
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I really liked that idea. And in Erika's dress there is a golden eagle

Spoiler for picture:


It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right. And in episode 6 she didn't resolve the epitaph.

And if you think about it you can even make a link between erika's past and ange. In the case of Beatrice her link with Ronove and Virgilia is the same as Yasu with Genji and Kumasawa. While Erika and her boyfriend are similar to Ange and Eva. In the confront between Erika and Dlanor, Erika showed a lot of proofs that her boyfriend didn't love her as probably there was many things for Ange to think that Eva didn't love her. But Dlanor said that even so there was some hints that could prove it but she just choose to don't believe in that, in the same way as ange who coudn't believe in Eva's love for her. And because of the fact that the two of them were "betrayed" they became disproved of love.

You can think about this same thing but in the place of Eva's love for Ange you interpret as the Eva culprit theory, in the way that there was many things to prove that eva was the culprit but every thing that could prove Eva's innocence ange ignored.
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Old 2013-10-06, 15:44   Link #33108
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It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right. And in episode 6 she didn't resolve the epitaph.
You're neglecting that the crest has meta-world magical meaning that doesn't correspond to how it's used in in the 'real world'.

Namely, that it's usable by Beatrice and anyone associated with her. She can also be using it because she's effectively deeming to continue the circular, looping tragedy (the one winged eagle can only fly in a circle) for all time.

Aaaand she's a Mary Sue.
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Old 2013-10-06, 18:49   Link #33109
Andor-sama
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Originally Posted by Higurashi-Z View Post
I really liked that idea. And in Erika's dress there is a golden eagle

Spoiler for picture:


It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right. And in episode 6 she didn't resolve the epitaph.

And if you think about it you can even make a link between erika's past and ange. In the case of Beatrice her link with Ronove and Virgilia is the same as Yasu with Genji and Kumasawa. While Erika and her boyfriend are similar to Ange and Eva. In the confront between Erika and Dlanor, Erika showed a lot of proofs that her boyfriend didn't love her as probably there was many things for Ange to think that Eva didn't love her. But Dlanor said that even so there was some hints that could prove it but she just choose to don't believe in that, in the same way as ange who coudn't believe in Eva's love for her. And because of the fact that the two of them were "betrayed" they became disproved of love.

You can think about this same thing but in the place of Eva's love for Ange you interpret as the Eva culprit theory, in the way that there was many things to prove that eva was the culprit but every thing that could prove Eva's innocence ange ignored.
Wow, that interpretation of Erika's boyfriend is rather fascinating. Tbh I have almost forgotten that scene...

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're neglecting that the crest has meta-world magical meaning that doesn't correspond to how it's used in in the 'real world'.

Namely, that it's usable by Beatrice and anyone associated with her. She can also be using it because she's effectively deeming to continue the circular, looping tragedy (the one winged eagle can only fly in a circle) for all time.

Aaaand she's a Mary Sue.
Actually according to EP7 Beatrice is the head of the family when the murders take place thus she and all of her underlings having the crest isn't strange at all.

Last edited by Andor-sama; 2013-10-06 at 20:38.
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Old 2013-10-06, 20:07   Link #33110
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That's...not what I meant. I'm saying that in the fantasy/meta-world narrative the crest has ADDITIONAL meanings ontop of what it has in the world of humans. That's why characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos are able to wear it without it being a plot hole for Beatrice's magical narrative.
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Old 2013-10-06, 20:34   Link #33111
Andor-sama
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That's...not what I meant. I'm saying that in the fantasy/meta-world narrative the crest has ADDITIONAL meanings ontop of what it has in the world of humans. That's why characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos are able to wear it without it being a plot hole for Beatrice's magical narrative.
I completely understand what you are saying but there are no characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos and wear the crest excluding Erika.
On the chessboard only the family members and the trusted servants have the crest (Shannon and Kanon are arguable, but Genji definitely counts as servant). On the magical plane only Beatrice herself, the actual head of the family who also has to be one of the real family members and HER trusted servants have the crest, like siestas and the seven sisters of purgatory. Of course family members who appear in the meta world also wear the crest. It's only that the perspective is different in the meta world because Beatrice's servants are also servants of the family.
On the other hand if this was the case there are a few characters that should wear the crest, like Gaap, EVA-Beatrice but they dont...
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Old 2013-10-06, 21:59   Link #33112
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It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right.
I'd argue that the comparison to Natsuhi there actually doesn't work. Erika was marrying Battler in order to become the territory lord of Rokkenjima and to take the one-winged-eagle territory ring into her possession. Had the wedding succeeded she would have been officially the most one-winged-eagle-y person there.

Quote:
"Ooh... ......I see. ......You're saying you'll make it so that Erika inherits all of this game board's territory."

"That's right. ......Look at Battler's finger. ......He's wearing the ring of the One-winged Eagle, symbol of the territory lord. If that becomes yours, you'll become the official lord of this territory. ......I don't mean you'll be under my charge. ......In name and reality, this territory will be yours."

"So I need to take that ring off Battler's finger...?"

"......*giggle* Don't be stupid. ......There's only one ceremony where a woman gets a ring from a man's finger, right?"

"Erika. ......Take Battler as your husband and become the wife of the territory lord."
"T...take Battler......as my......?!"

"Yeah, that's right. ......If the territory lord is never to wake again, he'll need a partner to serve by his side and in his place. ......In other words, you will control this territory."

"So, we'll hold a wedding and exchange the rings. ......Battler's territory lord ring will become yours..."

"In exchange, you will put a ring of subordination on Battler's finger. ......You will control and humiliate him forever......and create as many tales however you like using this territory and game board."

"Territory lord, Furudo Erika. ......Any tale you wish will come true. ......The territory lord is a god. ...Congratulations, you've become the god of this small but wonderful world."

"......Ha......hahahahaha...hahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha... Is that...true...my...master...?!! Will I...become this world's...god...?"
Quote:
At this rate, ......Battler's position as Game Master and his territory lord's ring will be stolen away...
Quote:
......The territory lord's ring with the One-winged Eagle engraved on it that sat on Battler's finger...would become Erika's.
By this, she would become the ruler of this game board...

And in exchange, ......Battler's finger would be given a diamond ring that Erika had prepared.
......At a glance, it just looked like a ring adorned by a large diamond.

......However, this cursed ring would force Battler into eternal subservience and mark him as another's property......

"Yes, let the pair exchange rings...!!"
"......Since the husband's fingers cannot move, let his wife support him...!"
Erika respectfully took Battler's right hand......then slowly pulled off the territory lord's ring that had sat on his ring finger......

That was the ring Beato had entrusted him with. ......Erika...stole it away.
It's not a perfect analogy in any case because Natsuhi wasn't marrying the territory lord on the meta-level, but marrying the apparent family heir in reality. Anyway. When Natsuhi married into the Ushiromiya family, she wasn't becoming the head of the family by doing so and neither was she making Krauss her official subordinate, whereas Erika was via the ceremony to become the territory lord and have Battler as her eternal slave, etcetera.

I'd say there's a good argument to be made there that Erika simply had the one winged eagle on her wedding clothes because she believed by the end of the ceremony that she would be the official lord and master of Rokkenjima. Of course, that doesn't exclude the theories of connections between Ange and Erika in any case.
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Old 2013-10-07, 00:53   Link #33113
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I completely understand what you are saying but there are no characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos and wear the crest excluding Erika.
Except the Stakes and Virgilia, whose real world counterparts apparently doesn't have permission to wear it.

Quote:
On the chessboard only the family members and the trusted servants have the crest (Shannon and Kanon are arguable, but Genji definitely counts as servant). On the magical plane only Beatrice herself, the actual head of the family who also has to be one of the real family members and HER trusted servants have the crest, like siestas and the seven sisters of purgatory. Of course family members who appear in the meta world also wear the crest. It's only that the perspective is different in the meta world because Beatrice's servants are also servants of the family.
The Chiesters don't even belong to Beatrice. They work against her half the time.
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Old 2013-10-07, 06:19   Link #33114
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Except the Stakes and Virgilia, whose real world counterparts apparently doesn't have permission to wear it.
We are not talking about the human counterpart. I think that in the human world they need to have some kind of connection with Kinzo, being furnitures or the members of the Ushiromiya family. While in the meta-world that connection is with Beato. Yasu hated the other servants but she still wanted to be acknowledged by them, so when she made the stakes they had the "setting" of being really loyal to her. The stakes are clearly funituries of Beato in the same way as genji is kinzo's, so they need to have the crest. For Virgilia is the same, her "setting" is as Beatrice's master and an "ex-beatrice". It woudn't make sense for someone with this setting to don't use the golden eagle.

Quote:
The Chiesters don't even belong to Beatrice. They work against her half the time.
So why are they using the crest? It's not like any character summoned by the family members have the crest. Take Gaap for example,she was summoned by kinzo at the same time as Chiester 00, but the chiester have a crest while Gaap doesn't. She only said that she was Beato's friend(not a furniture). And in her "new setting" that Yasu made after becoming beatrice Gaap didn't had the title. It was like she never had the name Beatrice. Gaap and beato are similar to Kinzo and nanjo for example. Nanjo knows everything and is trusted by kinzo but he's not a furniture nor a family member so he can't use the crest. For me at least the chiesters were made as mariage sorciere furniture. You need to remember that in ep 3 is dubious if they were really against beato as more of that was an acting of beato as could the chiesters be going according to the plan. And the only other time that they were against beato was in the final part of ep 6 during the wedding but that time they were following Erika's order(who as we are saying have a link with ange). It would make sense for Erika to order the chiesters group during that part of the story. And if you see during the fight at the final of ep 5 battler summoned all the other characters except the chiesters. It could be because they woudnt fight against a member of the mariage sorciere.

Quote:
I'd argue that the comparison to Natsuhi there actually doesn't work. Erika was marrying Battler in order to become the territory lord of Rokkenjima and to take the one-winged-eagle territory ring into her possession. Had the wedding succeeded she would have been officially the most one-winged-eagle-y person there.
I forgot about the ring in that scene... Still I don't think that being a territory lord has anything to do with the crest... In Ep 5 Erika became the territory lord for a while and she received an scyth as the symbol but it wasn't similar to the eagle. I think that if a territory lord would use the crest she should had received something to show that...
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Old 2013-10-07, 17:13   Link #33115
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Originally Posted by Higurashi-Z View Post
I forgot about the ring in that scene... Still I don't think that being a territory lord has anything to do with the crest... In Ep 5 Erika became the territory lord for a while and she received an scyth as the symbol but it wasn't similar to the eagle. I think that if a territory lord would use the crest she should had received something to show that...
I can't find that part of the game. Checking ep 5 just now, Erika manifested the scythe only after Battler was established as the official territory lord, revoking whatever temporary status she had, and nothing was said about the scythe being a symbol of the territory lord's power. I don't believe it has anything to do with the territory lordship.

The one-winged eagle is explicitly connected to the territory lordship in the text. I'm sure it's not limited to holding that single meaning, and indeed we know it's not limited to that, but I don't think we can successfully contradict one that was laid out so clearly.

Quote:
......Look at Battler's finger. ......He's wearing the ring of the One-winged Eagle, symbol of the territory lord. If that becomes yours, you'll become the official lord of this territory. ......I don't mean you'll be under my charge. ......In name and reality, this territory will be yours."
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Old 2013-10-07, 17:46   Link #33116
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Quote:
So why are they using the crest?
Because in the Fantasy narrative it has an additional meaning beyond "Belonging to the master of Rokkenjima."
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Old 2013-10-08, 10:32   Link #33117
Renall
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My primary objection to the Erika/Ange thing (besides the fact that they interact with each other in a completely different way from Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice, who are aspects of the same person) is that it doesn't seem to work on a number of thematic and characterization levels:
  • Ange feels bad about hurting Maria. Erika feels pleasure from hurting Maria. And it's not like Ange would harbor a belief that Maria got what she had coming; or at least, we never really see that. Arguing "well Erika represents that belief!" is roundabout begging the question.
  • Erika is a devoted slave of Bernkastel and seeks at every turn to please her. Bern is generally benign or at least tolerant of Erika's antics as long as she isn't disappointing or boring. Ange is approached by Bern as someone striking a bargain and is treated as a sort of partner at first, and then later Bern begins acting actively antagonistic toward Ange without any particular provocation on Ange's part.
  • Bern sees Ange's suffering as an important thing, something that lets her get back at Battler and Beatrice and an audience that will react to how she twists the story of 1986. When Bern causes suffering or pain to Erika, she seems to think almost nothing of it. She doesn't even give a shit when Erika is banished to oblivion.
  • Erika's discussion of being a Witch of Truth suggests that she already is one and that Ange could become one, and that the circumstances of how they would reach that point are different. This doesn't make a lot of sense if Erika is merely symbolic of an aspect Ange already has.
  • Amakusa warns Ange about living for revenge, which seems to be something Ange thinks of as driving her. Erika does not appear to be motivated by revenge in her backstory; she became a Witch of Truth to put assurance into uncertainty, not out of a desire for revenge. What she did to her boyfriend isn't revenge exactly, but Ange trying to "prove" Eva is the culprit is definitely vengeful in a markedly different manner.
  • Arguing the ep6 interpretation about Ange's possessiveness of Battler just doesn't work with the way Erika's own possessiveness is portrayed. Erika is seeking domination and power and vindication from Bern and has dispensed with any desire to actually find the truth (to the point that she's creating a ludicrous outcome that couldn't possibly be real). I'm not sure there's any evidence that Ange's love for her brother reaches that level in any sense.
  • Also, Ange is a character in ep6 and has a specific role in that narrative. It's not clear how this role coincides with Erika's at all.
  • Battler insinuates that Ange being able to go to the island on his board in ep8 is a special magical miraculous thing that is an exception for Ange and little-Ange seems to take this as a unique and novel experience. If Ange has already essentially been on the island as Erika, it cheapens that entire aspect of Battler's game.
  • Battler also invited Erika to his party which Ange was already at. The party is essentially incorporating all characters in their meta-identities. Is Erika a separate meta-entity or isn't she? How could she be both a distinct meta-entity and an aspect of a completely different meta-entity? Not even Bern acts like Erika is an essential part of her existence or anything.
  • Finally... Erika Furudo was a real person, even if all the stuff about her on the island is completely untrue. Ange would know this, more than anybody else would. It would be incredibly weird for Ange to choose to mentally associate herself with a different physical person just to get onto the island, and bastardize that person's entire characterization to represent some need she has. If she has that much of an imagination, why not just place herself there? Why do all those horrible things to an unfortunate stranger? Erika's portrayal is already pretty messed-up, and I don't think we're supposed to see her inclusion in the stories as a positive thing for anyone involved.
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Old 2013-10-10, 16:46   Link #33118
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I think Erika was actually a real person who fell in the sea prior to the tragedy and later on it was speculated she might have ended up on Rokkenjima. Likely there weren't so many info on her that were public knowledge and her life so her character is mostly fictional or speculation based on the little about her that was known.
Sure thing there are a lot of parallels between her and Ange and they're likely created on purpose. Interesting is that Erika appears as Bern's piece after Ance's piece destroyed herself due to her wish to help the brother she loved.

Erika seems to be a memento to Ange. Although love can lead you to see things that aren't there if you completely give up on it things will be actually worse, you'll become a worse person and you'll lose sight of the true truth, forcing your own views on something.

Erika can be seen as the symbolic representation of many things that plagued/risked to plague Ange.
However I don't think Erika IS Ange, it's more likely she was built to show Ange what she could become and in the bad ending Ange more or less choses to become like Erika. She loses faith in the people around her and destroy them, ending up on drifting aimlessly on the sea. Ironically in the same way as Erika her fate would become unknown as she would disappear and it would be unknown is she died in the sea or reached Rokkenjima as she planned or... something else.

Ange might have also felt some closeness with Piece Erika. Undoubtely she would have liked to be able to solve any mystery and placing the crime on Natsuhi might have been even better than placing it on Eva as she would have been able to deny the Rudolf's family culprit theory and yet accept Eva's love.
Also, even though later on Ange regretted hurting Maria it's likely when she was a child she did not. It's typical of small children to long for showing themselves as better than who's older than them. Waving off Maria's magic and going to play with the older cousins Ange defines herself as more mature than Maria. Dlanor said what pushed Erika to attack Maria were, according to him, negative emotions. It's possible Ange did the same to Maria for the same reason. Surely it's hard to think that she had negative emotions due to a boyfriend dumping her though it can be that part is a reference to Kyrie and Rudolf?

It's possible that Rudolf kept cheating on Kyrie even after marrying her, creating an unpleasant family situation so that Ange was subconsciously afraid her parents would divorce so Ange vented her feelings of frustration on Maria.

Though it'll be interesting if that scene is a hint to what happened between Rudolf and Asumu and would explain well Rudolf's guilt and Battler's reaction to Rudolf's marriage.

Interesting enough after all Erika's past drama apparently doesn't have direct references with Yasu (George and Jessica didn't cheat on her, as for Battler he might have had another girl but he's not there to interact with Yasu nor Yasu can find clues about him cheating), Battler (he claims he's single, sure, he has an interest in Shannon who's now George's girlfriend but the situation doesn't mirror Erika's) or Ange (no love relations unless you force things and say that's a twisted representation of Ange's love for her brother how she believed her brother was Tohya and how he refused to meet her, which might have lead her to feel 'cheated'. To me however it feels like a very forced parallel).
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Old 2013-10-11, 21:07   Link #33119
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Erika solved Shkanon in ep 8 manga. Seems like there are going to be more changes in the manga
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Old 2013-10-12, 19:18   Link #33120
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She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.

Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.
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