AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-10-28, 06:06   Link #33181
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
While Ange's not inclusion is a little bit hard to swallow, you could say she was either written out at the last minute (considering that she's a 6 year old child at that point, not impossible, since her influence would be marginal at best) or something else made it likely for her not to come.

The first message bottle was btw found adrift in the sea directly after the incident on the next morning when the police was searching the waters around Rokkenjima. It was taken up as evidence but not released as information to the public until the fisherman went out into the open with the bottle he found later on.
Also, research on the bottle and the cork apparently made it clear that the bottle was sealed around the time of the incident.
Ah, if that was clarified about the first bottle, then that would remove my doubts there then. I thought I'd remembered it was found later, but I guess that was the second bottle I had recalled, not the first.

I agree that her role in the stories would likely have been minor due to her age, or if Yasu still respected her status as a witch apprentice, then she probably would have just treated her more or less as an "extra Maria". I did think it was also possible that Ange's fragility of health may have made it less likely for her to show up usually.
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-28, 06:34   Link #33182
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The predicted typhon is apparently part of the setting of the Rokkenjima world. The parents complain they usually happen when they've a meeting and suggest the meeting should be moved to another date from now on, though they don't feel up to go and tell this out loud to Kinzo.

Interesting enough it seems in real Japan typhons in that zone aren't so common... but evidently prime is a bit different from real Japan.

As for Ange my feeling was when Yasu hired/bribed the siblings she also demanded they'll let Ange home as Ange had been written out of Marriage sorciere and couldn't be allowed to reach the golden land.

My feeling is that Beato was informed about Ange denying Sakutarou by Maria as it likely happened in Rokkenjima.
Yeah, I can understand the expectation of the typhoon. Of course if the typhoon hadn't looked like it was going to come, she could have altered her plans and never released those bottles...but that fragment is outside the catbox.

I'm not sure I could see Yasu influencing anyone significant to keep Ange from coming, but who knows?

I do think that the scenes of Maria asking Beato to revive Sakutarou reflect something that would have actually happened in the prior meeting on Rokkenjima, and be part of what was upsetting Maria during that last meet up (along with Ange's refusal to "play witches" on that trip and thus missing out on being introduced to Beatrice by Maria). Add to this that there was no letter from Battler to Shannon accompanying the ones with news of his return, and many other upsetting things that came together in 1985 when the two met the last time. This was part of the genesis of Yasu's plot, and her promise to Maria to take her with her to the Golden Land (and away from the Black Witch) where everyone could be happy together. Maria's ideas about the occult and such were a big influence on Yasu and as such she can be seen (unintentionally) as a sort of co-author...it's not hard to imagine why Yasu would sign the bottle-messages under her name, besides as a misdirection.

I noticed that the manga (if not the sound novel, I don't recall now) made it quite clear that Maria and Beatrice had their 1985 meeting(s?) at the Kuwadorian...which must have helped make quite an impression on Maria, I would imagine!
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-28, 11:39   Link #33183
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
While Ange's not inclusion is a little bit hard to swallow, you could say she was either written out at the last minute (considering that she's a 6 year old child at that point, not impossible, since her influence would be marginal at best) or something else made it likely for her not to come.
It's extremely difficult to believe Ange would be written out of the message bottles as the influence of a character, even a very minor character, would leave holes in the narrative. I think if they were pre-incident it's just a lucky guess that she wasn't coming, as had she been originally included there would be the possibility of Ange ending up a victim. While the message bottles (which we assume to be Legend and Turn) tend not to victimize the children where possible, Jessica and George are both killed in Turn so it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Of course it's possible that Battler, Maria, and Ange would've just been "off limits" to the original message bottle author and thus Ange's minor role was scratched, but I think it implausible that she wouldn't have had some impact on the story. So it's easier to just believe that she was either excluded by an educated guess (Ange is often sick and misses, so with a storm coming there's a good chance she'll be left behind) or by some kind of conspiracy to intentionally leave her there with Kyrie and Rudolf. I couldn't weigh in on that one way or the other, as it's a very strange request to make and a stranger one to comply with.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-28, 17:19   Link #33184
MysteriousLurkerGuy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Yasu is exactly the kind of person I can see fervently rewriting half her manuscript the night before in order to account for the disappearance of a minor character. Then again, if Yasu writes anything like Ryukishi, all the murders would have to be put off a few days until the swelling in the hand goes away.

I wonder if Ange receiving a safety-deposit box key in EP4 somehow implicates Rudolf and/or Kyrie as accomplices (being "paid off" in the same manner as Nanjo and Kumasawa's heirs). It's not like she really needs the money. Might also explain how the siblings were tipped off to Kinzo's death, as well as Rudolf's sudden reconciliation with Battler.
MysteriousLurkerGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-28, 21:46   Link #33185
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
As for the typhoon, if I remember correctly Jessica said the boats often didn't run in any sort of bad weather, and that was mostly what the family was complaining about with regards to the timing of the meeting. Even if not a full-on typhoon, the family and Yasu might have been able to guess/predict there would be SOME sort of bad weather, and maybe Yasu just upped the drama by making it a typhoon.

For all we know it was just a standard October heavy rain, and in walks Genji with the helpful news that the "boat can't leave in this weather, also the phones are definitely out so don't try them"

Though it is entirely plausible they orchestrated for the boat not to come, Ryu also implied via George that people generally knew a typhoon was scheduled for then.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-29, 17:47   Link #33186
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
I wonder if the typhoon and Ange's absence in the real world and in the tales are merely two more unlucky coincidences along with Battler's return that year and the parents being out of money.
After all it seems she tossed the bottles in the water because she hoped someone would solve her mistery, not because she believed people would believe that 'a witch did it'.
So in the end it didn't matter if they weren't perfectly fitting with the facts, just that someone could solve them.
By a set of coincidences they are missing Ange (which she probably dind't want to reach the golden land in her stories) and used a typhoon (which is a convenient excuse) to trap anyone on the island as it truly happened, two things that truly happened that day.

Then, due to another set of coincidences (Rokkenjima exploding, Eva surviving and selling Kinzo's library, the bottle being found and released to the public, the tales being recognized not as the writing of Maria who's aknowledged as dead) people assumed they were two possible depictions of what happened that day when they were just what if scenarios.

Wasn't it in Ep 5 that Battler talked of how a strange set of coincidences that seem instead connected might lead people to have the wrong perception of what happened when actually it was all strange coincidences?

It might be a hint to what really happened in Prime. A really odd set of coincidences was judged as something made on purpose because... well, it was such a really odd set of coincidences that accepting it as such seemed too unbelievable for the observers.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-29, 21:48   Link #33187
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I wonder if the typhoon and Ange's absence in the real world and in the tales are merely two more unlucky coincidences along with Battler's return that year and the parents being out of money.
After all it seems she tossed the bottles in the water because she hoped someone would solve her mistery, not because she believed people would believe that 'a witch did it'.
So in the end it didn't matter if they weren't perfectly fitting with the facts, just that someone could solve them.
By a set of coincidences they are missing Ange (which she probably dind't want to reach the golden land in her stories) and used a typhoon (which is a convenient excuse) to trap anyone on the island as it truly happened, two things that truly happened that day.

Then, due to another set of coincidences (Rokkenjima exploding, Eva surviving and selling Kinzo's library, the bottle being found and released to the public, the tales being recognized not as the writing of Maria who's aknowledged as dead) people assumed they were two possible depictions of what happened that day when they were just what if scenarios.

Wasn't it in Ep 5 that Battler talked of how a strange set of coincidences that seem instead connected might lead people to have the wrong perception of what happened when actually it was all strange coincidences?

It might be a hint to what really happened in Prime. A really odd set of coincidences was judged as something made on purpose because... well, it was such a really odd set of coincidences that accepting it as such seemed too unbelievable for the observers.
Even so, it seems bizarre that Yasu left out Ange when she gave so many other comparatively useless characters some mention, like Hideyoshi and Krauss... especially since Ange had been on the island for the previous 6 family gatherings and actually spent time with the other cousins. Sure, it could have happened by coincidence, but why did she choose to leave out Ange? It just seems strange that of all the other people she could have cut out, it was her.

So it sort of seems like post-incident authorship to me.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-30, 01:33   Link #33188
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Even so, it seems bizarre that Yasu left out Ange when she gave so many other comparatively useless characters some mention, like Hideyoshi and Krauss... especially since Ange had been on the island for the previous 6 family gatherings and actually spent time with the other cousins. Sure, it could have happened by coincidence, but why did she choose to leave out Ange? It just seems strange that of all the other people she could have cut out, it was her.

So it sort of seems like post-incident authorship to me.
Hadn't it been mentioned that it wasn't the first time she didn't come because she was sickly? Also, even if she did come, her participation for the first 2 years would have been practically nonexistent, for her being a baby and such...
She probably only started having any actual influence in terms of interacting actively with the cousins at maybe 4 or 5, so 1 or 2 years before the fatal conference. We also know that Maria excluded her from any play Beato, due to Ange's behavior when she was 5.

Even if Shannon did some babysitting, which is unlikely, considering she was apparently not considered the most trustworthy servant by Kinzo's children, she probably wouldn't have much of an actual relationship with Ange.
Krauss, Eva, Rudolph and Rosa she practically grew up with and would have met their spouses quite a few times. George, Jessica and Battler were her playmates when she was growing up and Maria was a perfect fit for her fantasies.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-30, 22:26   Link #33189
BeyondTheGrave007
anonymous
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
I just finished the anime two days ago and oh my god was it confusing, but I seriously think it was George and Shannon. If not than I'm mind blown.
BeyondTheGrave007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-30, 22:48   Link #33190
Golden Bug-Hunter
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeyondTheGrave007 View Post
I just finished the anime two days ago and oh my god was it confusing, but I seriously think it was George and Shannon. If not than I'm mind blown.
You, my friend, are in completely the wrong thread for this level of knowledge.

While it seems unlikely that there will be a season 2 of the anime, the visual novels have Umineko Chiru that reveal most of the answers, or at least enough to make it pretty obvious. The manga is approaching the end as well, although if you're waiting for the American release you have quite a bit of time ahead of you.
Golden Bug-Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-10-30, 23:57   Link #33191
BeyondTheGrave007
anonymous
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
You, my friend, are in completely the wrong thread for this level of knowledge.

While it seems unlikely that there will be a season 2 of the anime, the visual novels have Umineko Chiru that reveal most of the answers, or at least enough to make it pretty obvious. The manga is approaching the end as well, although if you're waiting for the American release you have quite a bit of time ahead of you.
Sorry. I'm new to this website so please excuse my previous message. I'll watch the visual novel. As for the season 2, I really hope they do make it.
BeyondTheGrave007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-01, 04:46   Link #33192
ALPHA-Beatrice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeyondTheGrave007 View Post
Sorry. I'm new to this website so please excuse my previous message. I'll watch the visual novel. As for the season 2, I really hope they do make it.
I'll say this in Red The VN is vastly superior to the Anime

More soundtracks, the soundtracks used in their original and not a rehashed or poorly made form(Example: Fake Red Shoes's VN version is more epic than the anime version). The story goes even deeper into detail.

Ep's 1-4(Which the Anime does cover fairly well but leaves out an imaginable amount of detail. But in watching Chiru, I can say in Blue Everything the anime left out was immaterial

Whether you go with the anime version or the VN of eps 1-4, you'll get the same crucial information you need. Though the VN of Ep 4 goes deeper with Maria/Sakutaro and ANGE.

So it's up to you whether you want to review the VN of eps 1-4(1-26 in the anime) or not. I personally did and it was enjoyable. But you don't have to do it IMO, anyone else here can correct me but I believe the anime covered just enough of the Mystery/Fantasy aspects to understand Beato's games.

Umineko Chiru(Eps 5-8) is the second and last installment of the Umineko Series. If Eps 1-4 were the Mystery, Chiru proposes the answers.

However Umineko Chiru only proposes the answers. So you can choose to accept them as they are, or to intellectually question them.

You've only begun to open up the Cat Box called Umineko, the twilight murders of 1986. I believe there's a lot of fun to be discovered and a lot of brain twisters.
ALPHA-Beatrice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-03, 19:07   Link #33193
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post

The first message bottle was btw found adrift in the sea directly after the incident on the next morning when the police was searching the waters around Rokkenjima. It was taken up as evidence but not released as information to the public until the fisherman went out into the open with the bottle he found later on.
Also, research on the bottle and the cork apparently made it clear that the bottle was sealed around the time of the incident.
Do you have a source quote regarding that "research"? Because I just checked both the manga and sound novel for the message bottle in episode 1 and both state clearly that the wine bottle was found by a fisherman several years later.

__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-04, 02:37   Link #33194
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Yeah, the fisherman's bottle was found years later, but the other bottle was recovered by the police on the day of the incident. It's described in EP4.

Quote:
It seems that, due to evidence from the surrounding area and the fact that the bottle was sealed, the police had decided that its likelihood of being a fabrication was low, and that it had been abandoned within several days before the accident. And the handwriting for both matched. This caused the credibility of the scraps of paper discovered by the fisherman to rise.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-04, 06:00   Link #33195
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Yeah, the fisherman's bottle was found years later, but the other bottle was recovered by the police on the day of the incident. It's described in EP4.

Oh? I'll have to dig that out and check that out too now. That's really interesting, so the second story came first then, and then the first one comes along years later? That seems kind of peculiar, since the way episode 1 frames it, it makes it sound like the first story was found first and that there hadn't been anything in between. Did Ryuukishi goof up here and retcon later? Is one an intentional mislead? Is the bottle described at the end of episode 1 actually the second story's message bottle? Could Ange have her info wrong about when the bottle was found?

Strange to see some seeming self-contradiction here for the message bottles' times of discovery.

(edit--did more research on Ep 4)
Okay, I see, so Ep 4 says that indeed the first story that reached the public was the one found several years later, and that the one found the day after the incident only came to light afterwards, that it had the same signature and handwriting, helping validate the first one publicly released.

This is really interesting though, because perhaps the first story WAS written later as the second one (written first) hadn't come out to the public and Yasu/Ikuko wanted it to be discovered?
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)

Last edited by Ayu-ayu; 2013-11-04 at 06:10. Reason: more research
Ayu-ayu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-04, 10:48   Link #33196
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It is peculiar, and I think it's peculiar enough that it could be evidence of post-incident authorship. It just depends what accounts you trust. It's also possible, as you suggested, that one was written before and the other written after.

We can't know that the bottle the fisherman found was set adrift on the weekend of October 4th, 1986. We can't even know that he actually found it adrift at all. Maybe he was paid to say he found it and produced the bottle. Anything is possible since he's an unreliable nameless extra mentioned only in the dialogue of other characters. "I heard that a fisherman found it" is not very authoritative when coming from someone who wasn't a direct witness. Although I would note that the anime features a scene where the fisherman actually finds the bottle at the end of the ep1 arc, but it's the anime so I'm automatically suspicious of it. Unless of course the manga closes that hole somehow.

At any rate, if you believe one or more of the bottles was post-incident, then you run into the obvious issue that the person who wrote the message bottles must have survived a considerable length of time after the incident, on the order of years. If you're going to posit the writer was Yasu as is assumed, then you must either conclude that Yasu survived the whole thing and was still alive well into the future, that the bottles couldn't have been post-incident, or that Yasu actually wasn't the writer of the messages after all, or that both were post-incident somehow (in which case you must address the reliability of the one found by the police, which is much harder to attack, plus identify who was the author). There's a lot of collateral consequences from those potential conclusions, obviously, which are matters of debate.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-04, 16:06   Link #33197
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
Oh? I'll have to dig that out and check that out too now. That's really interesting, so the second story came first then, and then the first one comes along years later? That seems kind of peculiar, since the way episode 1 frames it, it makes it sound like the first story was found first and that there hadn't been anything in between. Did Ryuukishi goof up here and retcon later? Is one an intentional mislead? Is the bottle described at the end of episode 1 actually the second story's message bottle? Could Ange have her info wrong about when the bottle was found?

Strange to see some seeming self-contradiction here for the message bottles' times of discovery.

(edit--did more research on Ep 4)
Okay, I see, so Ep 4 says that indeed the first story that reached the public was the one found several years later, and that the one found the day after the incident only came to light afterwards, that it had the same signature and handwriting, helping validate the first one publicly released.

This is really interesting though, because perhaps the first story WAS written later as the second one (written first) hadn't come out to the public and Yasu/Ikuko wanted it to be discovered?
In itself is not that peculiar.
The fisherman bottle was found later but was likely released to the public sooner than the one found by the police. So, if the meta is a construction in Tohya's mind as he learns about the tales and read them it makes sense that to MetaBattler Ep 1 takes place prior to Ep 2 merely because... Tohya read that first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It is peculiar, and I think it's peculiar enough that it could be evidence of post-incident authorship. It just depends what accounts you trust. It's also possible, as you suggested, that one was written before and the other written after.

We can't know that the bottle the fisherman found was set adrift on the weekend of October 4th, 1986. We can't even know that he actually found it adrift at all. Maybe he was paid to say he found it and produced the bottle. Anything is possible since he's an unreliable nameless extra mentioned only in the dialogue of other characters. "I heard that a fisherman found it" is not very authoritative when coming from someone who wasn't a direct witness. Although I would note that the anime features a scene where the fisherman actually finds the bottle at the end of the ep1 arc, but it's the anime so I'm automatically suspicious of it. Unless of course the manga closes that hole somehow.

At any rate, if you believe one or more of the bottles was post-incident, then you run into the obvious issue that the person who wrote the message bottles must have survived a considerable length of time after the incident, on the order of years. If you're going to posit the writer was Yasu as is assumed, then you must either conclude that Yasu survived the whole thing and was still alive well into the future, that the bottles couldn't have been post-incident, or that Yasu actually wasn't the writer of the messages after all, or that both were post-incident somehow (in which case you must address the reliability of the one found by the police, which is much harder to attack, plus identify who was the author). There's a lot of collateral consequences from those potential conclusions, obviously, which are matters of debate.
Although the post incident possibility exists and would solve a couple of problems (namely Ange's absence and the storm) the problem would be why to create them. Umineko says they were done because Yasu hoped that, if Battler weren't to solve her mystery, someone else did.

This would imply that:
- Yasu survived but was parted from Battler, assumed he was dead and, years later, bribed people to say they found her messages that didn't match with the truth as they left out how Eva survived and when the storm started (in the tales the storm started in different moments) and bribed the police into saying a message bottle was found earlier.
- Umineko lied and Yasu (who survived) created the bottles for removing the suspicions from Eva, although the idea it can work is terribly naive as normal people isn't going to swallow the culprit is the witch. Actually, considering the police had declared this to be an incident and the messages didn't match with this version, they would raise even more interest on the case and suspicions against Eva.
- the bottles weren't written by Yasu but... by someone else aware of many facts. Not Tohya though as he was informed about the bottles by Ikuko and by then he hadn't recovered his memory yet. Not Eva either as her writing doesn't match.

As I'm unsatisfied with the above solutions I prefer to think that Yasu wrote the messages earlier, bribed Kyrie and Rudolf so they would let Ange home and as for the storm Ryukishi purposely altered, for his setting the likeness of storms happening in that period and took care to inform us about this through a character dialogue (which is better than what he did with the rain that doesn't wet people.)

Of course people can prefer the other version as well as, so far, we've no red confirming when the messages were tossed in the sea or found.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-05, 23:40   Link #33198
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 44
No, my thought here is that the one found by the police (episode 2) was genuinely set adrift or such at the time, but as it was not made public, Yasu/Ikuko eventually put the second bottle out there years later (episode 1).

My current crack hypothesis (though I am still re-reading the story again and I know it is still a bit messy) is that Yasu and Battler escaped together, and that the "drowning" scene is a fiction and metaphor for putting "Beatrice" (and "Battler" for that matter) to rest with the gold.

It may be that the second message bottle and later "forgeries" were meant to be encrypted in such a way that only Ange would put things together over time...having the biggest "key" in the form of Yasu's writing in Maria's notebook. It was necessary for Battler and Yasu to remain hidden under new identities. The car accident and amnesia are possibly an invented story that would eventually allow Ange to meet Battler under his new identity as Tohya, once he is ready to do so--that is, once the events around the island were far enough in the past and the mess over the remaining inheritance was put to rest. It's not that he didn't want to meet her again, but rather the burden of what happened with the family along with the desire to protect Yasu's new identity would have made it difficult to directly meet with her given the scrutiny she was under.


The question is though why several years, if it was intentional? I'm thinking that it was done when they thought Ange would be at an old enough age to be able to start to understand the "love" part of the story...that is to say, close to Yasu's age when she first harbored the feelings that gave birth to her Beatrice.
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-06, 09:07   Link #33199
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The only real issue there is the same issue that is always the case with non-amnesia Battler survival: It makes him kind of a huge asshole. Besides, just how much scrutiny would Yasu really be under, especially under a false name? Nobody even knows what happened. The police think it was an accident (somehow). The only reason there'd be any scrutiny on her is if she published the message bottles, so it'd be entirely her own fault, and even then the one bottle the police found in this theory wasn't taken seriously anyhow. Why go along with a plan to publish something that will draw more scrutiny and make it harder to get back in touch with Ange?

Any construction of this sort of theory that I can see makes Battler out to just be a real ass, and all of Ikuko's employees to be incredibly naive; they just totally believe all that crap about a family they've never met if Ikuko-is-Yasu, because there is no family, plus they're totally okay with her having an amnesiac husband that as far as they know she just kidnapped or something. Even if Ikuko isn't Yasu, if Battler isn't amnesiac then the whole thing just gets really, really weird. And Battler had ages to track her down and all the money in the world to do it with and couldn't? Or just didn't want to?

Now I suppose if you want to go even crackier with your theory and propose that Tohya and Amakusa are the same person and all, and he was always sort of there for her... but there's nothing whatsoever in the text that supports that. Like, at all. In fact everything we know about Tohya suggests basically the opposite of something like that.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-11-06, 12:00   Link #33200
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
The question is though why several years, if it was intentional? I'm thinking that it was done when they thought Ange would be at an old enough age to be able to start to understand the "love" part of the story...that is to say, close to Yasu's age when she first harbored the feelings that gave birth to her Beatrice.
The biggest problem I have with this actually is the aspect that it has been established by EP8, and especially the manga, that Legend and Turn weren't the only message bottles with the Yasu-solution that were thrown into the sea. At least Land of the Golden Witch is also somewhere on the bottom of the ocean.

I would argue that there is no actual gain in one of the message bottles being post-incident...because if one of them is then the other could be as well. Both Legend and Turn tell basically the same story, with the same culprit and the same outcome, just slightly different turning points. If one of them was written pre-incident, why not both?
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.