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Old 2013-11-06, 21:56   Link #33201
Ayu-ayu
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Agreed, Renall, I don't subscribe to the Amakusa/Battler theory at all...it's just too messy, even more so than what I'm already fooling around with. I agree that my current theory seems to make Battler an asshole too, though my own current reconciliation attempt for this is something I'm still working out. But I think Yasu's anonymity being kept is a must while putting out message bottles. If it came out that Ikuko or Tohya were survivors of the incident, let alone if they were sharing info with Ange, the media would go bonkers, and the Sumaderas would be out for blood, and so on.

But yeah, I'm still going through my reread and admit this is more just an exercise for now. And (re: Haguruma's comment) I really need to read more of the ep 8 manga...I do like how many new hints or even answers it is slowly unveiling. I also admit I'm having more difficulty with the bottles being half pre, half post-incident than when I thought both were possibly post...but it still intrigues me that some, if awkward, potential exists there with that gap of several years.
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Old 2013-11-08, 03:59   Link #33202
Ayu-ayu
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I ought to mention a reason I have difficulty accepting Ikuko is NOT Yasu is that I keep seeing things that I don't see how recovering-amnesiac Battler/Tohya could really know about on his own (or non-Yasu Ikuko for that matter) in the forgeries. For one example the Chiesters/Siestas...if anything, Ange would be the only one who would know about them other than Yasu thanks to Maria's book.

I wonder at times if the meta-battles between Battler and Beatrice might be a pseudo-reflection of what "Tohya" and "Ikuko" might have bantered over.
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Old 2013-11-08, 05:12   Link #33203
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Originally Posted by BeyondTheGrave007 View Post
I just finished the anime two days ago and oh my god was it confusing, but I seriously think it was George and Shannon. If not than I'm mind blown.
Aww. To quote Rena, 'Can I take him home?'
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Old 2013-11-08, 18:51   Link #33204
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I've tried considering the case of Battler making out of Rokkenjima with Yasu alive but unable to contact Ange.

For example it could be that, although not amnesiac he was injuried, feverish, under shock so physically unable to contact her. However the fact that as soon as he's better he gets out and he's promply involved in an accident and loses his memory makes things slightly ridicolous.

Same goes if Yasu kidnapped him and, as soon as he managed to get free and try to escape, she manges to run over him with her car and give him amnesia.

Better theories would be if something with Eva happened, for example she believed him to be the culprit along with Yasu and he was unable to prove he was innocent, expecially because Yasu actually bribed the siblings and there could be things that would put her in a shady position. This might have scared him into hiding to protect himself and Yasu. Then, before he'll realize this is a stupid solution or just after he did and was about to do something against it, he lost his memory.

Another possibility is that he believed Eva to be the actual killer but had no idea how to prove it and was afraid to come out. It'll make him a jerk though because he let his sister in Eva's hands, or a really naive person as he believed Eva wouldn't murder Ange also.

An agreement between him and Eva might also keep him from showing up but I've hard time picturing such agreement.

Still, in the end, I would assume he really lost his memory and the story he told Ange about this is true.
Ange is old enough to face the truth, whatever that could be. If Battler had a reason to not show up sooned he should tell her. Also, if he didn't want to tell her he could simply not meet her.

The whole I'll meet you after so many years for just lie to you and tell you it's me but I've lost my memory and I don't consider you my sister anymore and can you please let me be when Ange is an adult living a normal life seems extremely pointless.

At this point it'll be better if the meeting had never happened for real but was just a dream Ange had before dying.

So I think Battler/Tohya really had amnesia. At best the circumstances of his incident might have been different from what we're told.
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Old 2013-11-09, 17:05   Link #33205
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've tried considering the case of Battler making out of Rokkenjima with Yasu alive but unable to contact Ange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu
My current crack hypothesis (though I am still re-reading the story again and I know it is still a bit messy) is that Yasu and Battler escaped together, and that the "drowning" scene is a fiction and metaphor for putting "Beatrice" (and "Battler" for that matter) to rest with the gold.
Battler and Yasu escaped just fine, but of all things to happen during their trip on the boat, Battler had his 'faaall faaall' moment because Yasu sped up not knowing/forgetting Battler's condition. Yasu then had an 'oh crap' moment and Battler promptly drowned along with one of the gold bars. Either Yasu managed to save him then or he washed ashore later like a message bottle, he woke up thinking he was a fish. So the drowning scene was a dramatization to mask for 'shit happens'.
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Old 2013-11-10, 11:11   Link #33206
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I always thought the ending with Beatrice and Battler in the boat was a hint towards there was some kind of boat accident. I personally believe the theory that Yasu died in the accident, or that she was meaning to drown (as Beatrice pretty much jumped out of the boat, if I remember correctly).

People seem to theorize that Ikuko is Yasu. Even though I kind of like the theory that she is somehow keeping Battler "prisoner", would this really be the case? Would Yasu just start living a new life with amnesiac Battler like nothing ever happened? Would she even think that Battler is the same person, hence red "Battler is dead"?

But I'm interested to hear why people think Ikuko could be Yasu, even though it is pretty much pointed that she had a way with writing the stories. Does any other evidence exist?
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Old 2013-11-10, 16:15   Link #33207
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http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-19820.html

Any news here?



I want a remake ;_;
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Old 2013-11-10, 17:49   Link #33208
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http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-19820.html

Any news here?



I want a remake ;_;
Sadly I've been told it's just a pachinko game... no idea how it works... but you can see some animated scenes here:



and here:



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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
I always thought the ending with Beatrice and Battler in the boat was a hint towards there was some kind of boat accident. I personally believe the theory that Yasu died in the accident, or that she was meaning to drown (as Beatrice pretty much jumped out of the boat, if I remember correctly).

People seem to theorize that Ikuko is Yasu. Even though I kind of like the theory that she is somehow keeping Battler "prisoner", would this really be the case? Would Yasu just start living a new life with amnesiac Battler like nothing ever happened? Would she even think that Battler is the same person, hence red "Battler is dead"?

But I'm interested to hear why people think Ikuko could be Yasu, even though it is pretty much pointed that she had a way with writing the stories. Does any other evidence exist?
I was thinking it was more simbolic, as Yasu buried her Beatrice's personality as that one could live only on Rokkenjima (it would be hard to keep alive the idea of Beatrice being around out of Rokkenjima) and Battler late on lost his memory, so his identity as Battler died as well.

Beatrice didn't so much as jump off the boat, it was more she suddently disappeared when Battler closed his eyes. If it's all simbolic it can be Yasu left him while he wasn't paying attention/fell asleep, he went to search for her worried she might do something drastic or get herself in troubles (because maybe she looked unhappy or because Battler told her they couldn't live in hiding with her playing Ikuko and he playing her husband but they've to go to the police or something as he would also have a sister he should care for) and ended up being involved in a car incident.
Yasu finds him and once she finds out he's suffering amnesia thinks this will solve everything and she'll be allowed to live with him the life she'd like to live, bribed the doctor and the servants (or simply lied to the servants who were newly hired) and happily began her life as Ikuko with Tohya.
She kept an eye on Rokkenjima matters though and a side of her was probably displeased Battler forgot everything.
In the end she sort of ended up placing Rokkenjima under his nose.
His reaction isn't the best one and she starts regretting things. She also feels guilty expecially when things escalates and Ange searches Tohya while Tohya almost kills himself. She has not the guts to outright tell him and works the truth into the tales she writes with Tohya. He figures out but, by then, Ange has disappeared. Years go by and Tohya manages to meet again Ange but he's still... cut apart from Battler.
Ange's party helps him to put together the two identities.

End of one of my many theories... though to know the truth about Ikuko being or not Yasu we'll have to wait if there will be more hints in the manga. Right now are being printed the chapters about Tohya living with Ikuko so I'm very anxious to see if in them there are some hints...
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Old 2013-11-10, 18:32   Link #33209
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I speculated with the possibility, that Ikuko is Yasu and Yasu wasn't even present on Rokkenjima. So Battler escaped alone and injured (e.g. someone on the island hit Battler's head or someone shot his head) and Ikuko=Yasu "kidnapped" Battler and asked him about what happened on Rokkenjima, etc.
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Old 2013-11-11, 10:40   Link #33210
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I speculated with the possibility, that Ikuko is Yasu and Yasu wasn't even present on Rokkenjima. So Battler escaped alone and injured (e.g. someone on the island hit Battler's head or someone shot his head) and Ikuko=Yasu "kidnapped" Battler and asked him about what happened on Rokkenjima, etc.
But that would be in no coherence with what the Episodes portrayed. The idea is fascinating if Yasu was described as being completely different, but the way s/he was portrayed the idea of her/him being a scheming mastermind, waiting for some contrived plan to play out, like an overgrown mousetrap...I don't know.

Too many things rely on her being in at least partial control of the islands events; like knowledge of the subterranean tunnels, the bomb, the trial of love, the test of succession, testing Battler...

I think the biggest problem with Yasu being Ikuko is, it would make her from a tragic character into more of a morally black character than the story lets on about. Not even by "holding Battler hostage", which is something that can be argued about, but by leaving the succession of the Ushiromiya fortune and all the bad luck that comes with it for Eva and Ange to manage.
If Eva did believe that Battler or Yasu were the culprits, would Yasu and Battler (after getting his memory back) just stand by and watch the events unfold?
If it was all a plan between the three (Eva, Yasu, Battler) to cover the whole thing up as an accident to protect the family's honor and escape, wouldn't at least Yasu have tried to contact either Eva or Ange?
If Battler and Yasu thought that Eva was the culprit, would they have left Ange in her care?

Yes, there is the whole thing about Tohya not wanting to contact Ange, but that is not only because he doesn't feel she is his responsibility anymore, he also feels that he would hurt Ange more than he could help her (not having any brotherly feelings for her anymore). EP8 is actually a way for Battler to communicate to Ange that she should let past things rest and transmits this feeling quite well.

No matter how you turn it, Yasu surviving would just make Yasu=Ikuko into a colossal dick, considering it was public knowledge that Eva was mentally unstable and that Ange apparently was less than a well-behaved high-society girl.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be fascinating if that WAS the case, but so far I don't see it being hinted at.

Additionally there is the whole, as long as the host lives anything can be revived innumerable times, but if the host dies the soul is lost too. That's the whole reason for Battler's frustration with Chick-Beato in EP6. If Ikuko was Yasu, who is by extension Beatrice, why did it then take decades for them to reunite and only with Ange's help?!
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Old 2013-11-11, 10:51   Link #33211
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Yeah, Ikuko is a weird and morally questionable character as-is, if she's someone with a direct connection to events it makes her entire pattern of behavior incredibly hard to take as anything but evil outright. And as haguruma and I have noted, as cool as it may be it just doesn't seem to fit the text. As cool as a crack theory can be... well, if there's nothing really pointing to it, then I don't know. While the Ikuko = Yasu thing is possibly supportable, the notion that Battler's situation was anything other than more or less what was portrayed seems highly dubious. The only scene that really offers much room for interpretation is the one with Beatrice at the end, and the interpretation that points to most strongly is Yasu's death in some fashion.

Amnesia is stupid, but I see no reason to doubt that Battler had it in the text as presented. And Ikuko being Yasu turns her from a morally ambiguous character into a really creepy one. In fact, I'd argue if she were Ikuko then her behavior would be so wildly out of character that the only explanation would be that she was irreversibly changed for the worse by the experience of that weekend to the point of becoming a dangerously cynical person. That doesn't fit at all thematically with the last episode, which for all its faults is definitely supportive of the idea of redemption and finally achieving what was believed to be impossible. Ikuko would seem to stick in the craw of that thematic idea if she were Yasu, as it would make her a distinctly broken person far beyond recovery. If she's just herself, then her being kind of a dick is merely who she is, and this story isn't about her redemption, so that's perfectly fine.
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Old 2013-11-11, 12:51   Link #33212
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The conclusion I ended up coming to was that Tohya couldn't remember anything at all about Ange, since she wasn't really in the message bottles. As such he didn't feel he could meet her - if he couldn't even remember his relationship with her, what good would meeting with him do? Ikuko then decided to get to know Ange herself and see if she could get Tohya to remember about her. I can sortof vaguely justify their course of action in that case.

Alternatively Ikuko is Yasu and she just never forgave Ange for making fun of witches.
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Old 2013-11-11, 14:58   Link #33213
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Don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but there is a quite of talk in ep 4 about ange being left out of mariage sorciere and everyone in the club being very pissed at her. Maybe ange isn't in the message bottles because no one thought her to be nice enough to be included in the secret stories of glamorous witches.

Also Ikuko is described as a dickhead character. Yasu killing people for retarded reasons is kind of dickhead move.

Even if there is very little evidence pointing I=Y, somehow yasu living in a household with crippled amnesiac battler and writing her twisted fictions (probably smiling creepily and forcing battler to eat terrible home made cookies) totally fits in line with her sort of obsessive attitude towards battler.

Also if one of the motives was to get rid of the gold and her burdens, do you think yasu would be bothered to see eva struggling with gold? We are talking about a person, that was ( if we believe yasu to be sort of a person boards want us to believe) pretty ready to kill pretty anyone because muh suffering and muh golden rulette. Also she never even liked ange, and while getting what she wanted (a creepy household with battler), would she give a shit about ushiromiyas anymore?

Now I don't necessarily believe this theory myself, but it's something nice to consider.
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Old 2013-11-11, 15:51   Link #33214
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I'm pretty sure that Yasu didn't actually kill anyone - she merely attempted to claim responsibility by throwing her scripts into the sea. That seems to fit better with episode 7 than her being an evil murderer.

In addition, an interpretation where she kidnaps Battler would make her the unambiguous villain of the story, and it seems unlikely that she wouldn't be revealed in that case.
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Old 2013-11-11, 16:45   Link #33215
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Even if there is very little evidence pointing I=Y, somehow yasu living in a household with crippled amnesiac battler and writing her twisted fictions (probably smiling creepily and forcing battler to eat terrible home made cookies) totally fits in line with her sort of obsessive attitude towards battler.
Actually she was never that much obsessive, rather fairly hurt by Battler promising her something and then basically everything pointing to him just forgetting about her altogether. Her fiction is clearly twisted to a certain degree, but, if we believe what Beato says in the EP8 manga, it was never supposed to be anything more than fiction she wanted Battler to read and solve in order to find out about her without having to tell him "I love you" in person.

I can actually see her writing these things over the period of time since she officially became Beatrice III and then being totally out of it when she learned that Battler was actually coming.



This actually got me an idea...
What if that was the actual reason for her to do the fucking murder mystery? That would explain the "if Battler had come the year before or the year after it wouldn't have been as bad" even more, and also the "because of you people die."
Let's think about it, her basic idea was making Battler read about them and think, but in 1986 everything pointed to her having to make a decision, especially because of George. So, even if she threw them in the sea a month or two before the conference, they'd never reach the shore in time for anybody to find them, and she probably didn't even know a way to send them to Battler personally without making an utter fool of herself. So, what better way to present him with it than using her temporary power to make her stories come true (in a way) and make Battler live her fantasy?!
If he solved the puzzle and apologized, she's have her peace. If he came out saying he still loved her, she'd go back to him. If he'd fail they'd all stand up in the end pointing at Battler and laugh at him for being incompetent.
She had basically been playing witch with not only Maria, but the whole household staff for at least a few years, so it was only upping the ante in way. No way this could go wrong now, could it?

Quote:
Also if one of the motives was to get rid of the gold and her burdens, do you think yasu would be bothered to see eva struggling with gold? We are talking about a person, that was ( if we believe yasu to be sort of a person boards want us to believe) pretty ready to kill pretty anyone because muh suffering and muh golden rulette. Also she never even liked ange, and while getting what she wanted (a creepy household with battler), would she give a shit about ushiromiyas anymore?
It is never implied anywhere that she didn't like Ange. Meta-Beato apparently simply despised Ange's piss-poor attitude towards the game, basically running all over it screaming, "Only my solution counts!!", ten times louder than her brother ever did, without having the proper insight to solve it.
The EP8 manga largely hints at Beato feeling horrible about what she put Ange through, but also feeling a little bit cheated out of a way to defend herself since Ange's mind is already made up.

And there is one important key-point you mentioned yourself, the boards want us to believe something about Yasu, but the ones where she appears as a murderer are specifically written to paint her as such, to the point of it lacking credibility.
The fact that EP3-6 basically paint Beato as going out of her way to somehow save the dignity of the Ushiromiya family by taking all the blame on herself via one method or another makes it hard to believe that she is the creation by a sociopath of a level that Ikuko-Yasu would be at.
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Old 2013-11-11, 17:12   Link #33216
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I agree with most of the "unwilling murder mystery night" theory, but I don't think Battler's return was a coincidence. Consider that:
1. Battler came back because Rudolf begged him to
2. Rudolf was in dire financial straights
3. A large amount of money arrived at Rudolf's house shortly after the conference
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Old 2013-11-11, 17:16   Link #33217
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Yasu probably didn't contact Eva or Ange because she thought it's no longer within her right and power to do anything. I actually think that things really wouldn't turn for the better had she actually met them. Ange would definitely not trust anything Yasu said at that point, no matter whether Eva thought Yasu as the culprit or they worked together. The only person that Ange would trust at that point was probably Battler, and he's either still in amnesia or have refused to see her. Thus all those years, Yasu worked to make Battler remember or care enough about his sister so they could meet again. Ange is left on her own all the while, but I'd argue that she needed that solitude to really sort out her feelings on her own accord.
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Old 2013-11-11, 18:22   Link #33218
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think the biggest problem with Yasu being Ikuko is, it would make her from a tragic character into more of a morally black character than the story lets on about.
Well, there's the problem that in Prime she might not be a tragic character but ended up being involved merely because prior to leaving Rokkenjima, she dropped some tales in the sea.

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Not even by "holding Battler hostage", which is something that can be argued about, but by leaving the succession of the Ushiromiya fortune and all the bad luck that comes with it for Eva and Ange to manage.
If Eva did believe that Battler or Yasu were the culprits, would Yasu and Battler (after getting his memory back) just stand by and watch the events unfold?
Well, Eva never accused anyone so it's hard to know what she believed. Personally I think if she wanted to accuse Yasu she wouldn't feel the need to protect Ange from this. Even if she were to do it though, she would have to find Yasu first and she likely believed her and Battler dead.

If they were to think she wanted to accuse Battler (a thing she apparently didn't do) though, Tohya never recovered the memories of those 2 days. He couldn't really defend himself, he might be afraid he were the real culprit and he refused the idea he was Battler apparently till Eva died and Ange disappeared.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
If it was all a plan between the three (Eva, Yasu, Battler) to cover the whole thing up as an accident to protect the family's honor and escape, wouldn't at least Yasu have tried to contact either Eva or Ange?
Assuming there was an agreement it can be Yasu kept in contact with Eva... or it can be the agreement was to never search for her again so as not to draw suspicions. It's not like Yasu needs to contact Eva and probably she's not so fond of her she wanted to.

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If Battler and Yasu thought that Eva was the culprit, would they have left Ange in her care?
Battler has little chances to do something as he's amnesiac. He might have planned to do something and then go stopped. As for Yasu it really depends on why she believed Eva did it, if she thought Ange would be in danger and if she believed she would be able to do something.

Let's assume Yasu thought Eva was the culprit. As things were, Eva had no reason to kill Ange as well, unless Eva is insane, very vengeful or feel threatened.
Yasu also likely has no way to prove Eva is the culprit, nor to defend herself should Eva turn the table.

After all in order for Yasu to be Ikuko she had at least gotten quite a bunch of money that belonged to Kinzo from Genji only Genji isn't around to tell he gave it to her out of his own free will and, anyway, as the money was Kinzo's I don't even think Genji could handle it to someone else freely.

So Yasu would be suspected of stealing Kinzo's money at best. If she was on Rokkenjima also and claimed she got it because she was Kinzo's daughter/son it could even be argued she had two motives to kill all the Ushiromiya, the money and hate toward the family for being tossed off a cliff, having been used as a servant and possibly even for Kinzo raping her mother.

So really, for Yasu reveal her identity might not be the best move. Battler might be the one interested in taking the risk as he probably loved Ange enough for this if he believed Ange in danger but Battler is ruled out soon by the amnesia.

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No matter how you turn it, Yasu surviving would just make Yasu=Ikuko into a colossal dick, considering it was public knowledge that Eva was mentally unstable and that Ange apparently was less than a well-behaved high-society girl.
If Yasu couldn't take Ange away from Eva revealing herself would be pointless though. Yasu can claim 'Eva did it' but can she prove it? Also I don't remember it being public knowledge Eva was unstable as for Ange it probably became known when Ange was older, years later the tragedy. At best it was public knowledge the two didn't get along which doesn't necessarily mean Eva threatened Ange's life or abused her.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Additionally there is the whole, as long as the host lives anything can be revived innumerable times, but if the host dies the soul is lost too. That's the whole reason for Battler's frustration with Chick-Beato in EP6. If Ikuko was Yasu, who is by extension Beatrice, why did it then take decades for them to reunite and only with Ange's help?!
Well, it is however hinted chick-Beato can turn into Beatrice in the future. Chick Beato, more than a completely different person, seems a part of Beatrice as she was back in the past and, in fact, she needs the other part to become complete.
The Beatrices are considered sisters and therefore daughters of the... let's call her original Beatrice as they're probably parts of her.

After all Ep 7 presents a Yasu that created various identities, one of which was the Beatrice that lived as a pranking ghost of Rokkenjima (and who can be the elder sister) but the other was the Beatrice born to love Battler in her place (chick Beato). The two were fused together then lived through the torture of waiting for Battler until they became the 'original Beato'.

Battler's tale present a parallel universe in which Battler managed to take care of the Beato born to love him and she fought to 'get him back' so that she never became an evil witch like the one the original Beatrice was. Chick Beato doesn't held against Battler the fact he 'left her' to solve the logic error, even if she was sort of jealous of how he was having 'fun' with Erika. She believes him and she tries to get him back, she doesn't just wait for him to figure things out.

As for the part of Ange's help technically Beato and Battler were united under the sea. But there's a part of Battler that's still inside Tohya and that couldn't unite with Beato because Tohya sort of rejected it. Ange's little magic trick might have caused Tohya to accept the Battler inside him which might mean for Tohya to stop rejecting the Ushiromiya family as his own and his story with past Yasu as well.

Ep 7 implied he wrote his final tale to be done with Beato, he put Beato to rest and, in a way, Battler's own feelings for her, so that he, as Tohya, could move over. If Ep 7 is also written by him he implied a disliking for Battler, who's not even allowed to show up or say his own side of the story. Battler is erased by it. Even in the teaparty he 'disappears'.

The fact he appears again at the end of Ep 8 might mean just Tohya reconciled with him.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Amnesia is stupid, but I see no reason to doubt that Battler had it in the text as presented. And Ikuko being Yasu turns her from a morally ambiguous character into a really creepy one. In fact, I'd argue if she were Ikuko then her behavior would be so wildly out of character that the only explanation would be that she was irreversibly changed for the worse by the experience of that weekend to the point of becoming a dangerously cynical person. That doesn't fit at all thematically with the last episode, which for all its faults is definitely supportive of the idea of redemption and finally achieving what was believed to be impossible. Ikuko would seem to stick in the craw of that thematic idea if she were Yasu, as it would make her a distinctly broken person far beyond recovery. If she's just herself, then her being kind of a dick is merely who she is, and this story isn't about her redemption, so that's perfectly fine.
To be honest I think if Ikuko is Yasu we should judge her on a rather large period of which we know nearly nothing.
She might have changed over the years and the text in a way implied she did.

For the person who took Battler in and changed his identity, going so far as to bribe doctors so they wouldn't tell about Battler to anyone, she became the one who tried to persuade Battler to meet who she assumed/knew was his sister.

While the Ikuko Battler met at the beginning clearly didn't care about how Battler's family might be searching for him as she kept him hidden, Ikuko later on began to worry.

So yes, after the Rokkenjima incident Yasu, if she's Ikuko, might have been a type of person and then she might have slowly changed.

Another parallel is Battler who left his family after his mother died and didn't want to have relations with it but that later on warmed up again to it and, in the end, returned to it.

So Yasu might have had a time in which she said she didn't want to be involved and who care about Ange, she didn't even like her, or Eva, let her deal with all the troubles (as in the beginning Eva couldn't count on the Ushiromiya fortune) as Eva was never nice with her and then began to regret it later on.

Yasu's not really described as the nicest person ever, after all. She liked to scare people with her Beatrice's ghost story, prank them and thrive on the power their fear gave her. She even pranks Jessica and it's possible one of her pranks caused a maid to get injuried, even if I don't think that was her aim. In her tales she uses Maria to deliver the letters when it's easy to guess all the adults would have jumped at Maria and her mother might have even ended up slapping her a bit because Maria would talk about witches.
I like to think she wouldn't go so far as to be willing to murder everyone but I don't see her as considerate or justice lover to risk what she has to protect Ange or Eva's reputation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I agree with most of the "unwilling murder mystery night" theory, but I don't think Battler's return was a coincidence. Consider that:
1. Battler came back because Rudolf begged him to
2. Rudolf was in dire financial straights
3. A large amount of money arrived at Rudolf's house shortly after the conference
Well, it would be really interesting if Yasu bribed Rudolf to have Battler to return back and to leat Ange home for that conference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Actually she was never that much obsessive, rather fairly hurt by Battler promising her something and then basically everything pointing to him just forgetting about her altogether. Her fiction is clearly twisted to a certain degree, but, if we believe what Beato says in the EP8 manga, it was never supposed to be anything more than fiction she wanted Battler to read and solve in order to find out about her without having to tell him "I love you" in person.
Battler made her a promise when he was 12 and 6 years after and with her having a boyfriend who's willing to marry her, she hadn't gotten over the fact he couldn't keep a promise he made when he was a kid and couldn't keep for a legittimate reason. It's less obsessive than keeping him trapped but she's still pretty much hung up on a boy who could have become radically different from how he was 6 years before, enough different she wouldn't be able to stand him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Yasu probably didn't contact Eva or Ange because she thought it's no longer within her right and power to do anything. I actually think that things really wouldn't turn for the better had she actually met them. Ange would definitely not trust anything Yasu said at that point, no matter whether Eva thought Yasu as the culprit or they worked together. The only person that Ange would trust at that point was probably Battler, and he's either still in amnesia or have refused to see her. Thus all those years, Yasu worked to make Battler remember or care enough about his sister so they could meet again. Ange is left on her own all the while, but I'd argue that she needed that solitude to really sort out her feelings on her own accord.
Likely enough. Ange believes only in her truth in which Eva is the culprit.
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Old 2013-11-13, 22:37   Link #33219
PsychoShion
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The whole Beatrice=Ikuto=True human monster culprit.


But isn't the climax of Arc 3 where Beatrice almost has us all fooled into believing she only has good-will in her heart? She tricks the reader and everyone LOL!

Don't you think this is very similar when we reach Arc 7 and "Yasu's Story " is told. Do we let her believe that because we now know the WHOLE story we finally understand the truth and don't see her as an EVIL HORRIFIC WITCH.

I think the whole Yasu=Ikuto thing isnt too hard to believe even if you have to consider that "Beatice" is totally evil just like we have seen from the beginning.

Wasn't that the whole point? Do we let her win?


Remember just to make sure that Arc 7 is mostly Bernkastel's version and that is what might be truly horrifying about it, its just a total lie to sucker you. Also Featherine and Bernkastel are up to monster stuff.

I doubt an innocent Yasu could be a true partner in crime with them but i believe the Beatrice we know is plenty. She is a monster.

Why do you guys try to go around so many circles to not see that IKuto=Beatrice =REal monster. The end of 8 shows she is the mastermind and evil being of this tale and manipulates everything so her image is how she wants it and when.

Why shouldn't it be? This is her Story. She is the Author.

Isn't this suppose to be the worst of HUMAN-TRICKS? Its easier to say a "Witch" did these things than to believe a human is this EVil without calling them a MONSTER?
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Last edited by PsychoShion; 2013-11-13 at 22:50. Reason: Made it much more legible
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Old 2013-11-14, 11:12   Link #33220
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Or... the bomb simply exploded when Battler and Eva (and Yasu) "explored" the tunnels which killed the rest. Seems very anticlimatic, but why not?
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