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Old 2013-11-19, 16:03   Link #33241
Drifloon
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Interesting that you think so too! I've noticed the same thing, as I mentioned a while ago. (I'm an INFJ myself, actually. Wouldn't be surprised if Ryukishi was too.)

And while we're playing with typology and Beatrice, I guess I may as well mention that she's also a Four on the Enneagram.

I've occasionally felt like it'd probably be a fun exercise (and possibly even a somewhat productive one!) to try and type the whole Umineko cast some time. Never gotten around to it though.
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Old 2013-11-19, 16:11   Link #33242
UsagiTenpura
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Oh read your previous post's point. Agree she has some INFP characteristics (eternal child mostly).
But yeah considering there's 16 people on Rokkenjima there seems to be a good chance that they are the 16 types.
Guess it'd be relatively easy to split them into temperaments if you want us to get into that.
The biggest question is then, would Battler be an ENTP? cause it sure feels that way.
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Old 2013-11-19, 16:26   Link #33243
Drifloon
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ENTP huh? I'd go for ENFP, personally. Battler likes to think he's a really rational and reasonable person, especially towards the beginning, but it's pretty obvious to me that he's ruled by his emotions.

...And, well, I admittedly have a bias that might particularly make me want to type him that way, mostly because I love how it makes this image basically a summary of Umineko's plot in a nutshell. But he definitely strikes me as a feeling type.
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Old 2013-11-19, 16:32   Link #33244
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'm mainly basing this off the TIPs and the existence of the meta-world in general, but I think it is the latter. Going for example by Forgery No. xxx we learn that besides the good Battler, who acted as the gamemaster of EP6, there is also Black Battler, who is "born from the wish for a Battler who can be the culprit." This would imply that the whole of the meta-world is an amalgamation of everything that is thought about 1986.

In this way EP8 could be a mixture of Ange's experiences and thoughts and those of Tohya. If so, then both the Ange in EP8 and the Battler in EP8 would be true (and would explain how their perspectives are mostly seperate for the main part of the narrative).
The problem here is there's a lot of information we more hear about than actually have presented and I get the sense it filters through some unseen primary entity... and then ep8 actually gives us that entity in the form of Tohya. His inclusion and profession just seem too obvious.

The other issue with that interpretation is that it essentially posits that the thoughts of Tohya and Ange can coincide despite not having contact with one another. One could perhaps argue that Battler and Beatrice are the same, but there we had a definitive originator for Beatrice's perspective in the form of the message bottles, and we knew that "Beatrice" was long gone (even if her creator was still alive, I'll set that aside from this discussion as it is potentially irrelevant and distracting). Also, most of what Beatrice does is to drive Battler to a conclusion, it's reflective.

This sort of thing could work if ep8 is entirely within Ange's perspective, as then Battler takes on the Beatrice role for her. But there's a lot of holes with that as well, such as why Ange would consider Battler to be antagonistic toward her when she has no apparent knowledge of his continued existence*. I consider either to be preferable to the notion that the story is actually being interpreted by multiple invisible viewpoints though, because it's not particularly clean writing. Which, given Ryukishi, isn't exactly much of an objection, I admit.

---

* Of course the whole "what if Ange actually has read the diary" thing could put this in an interesting light if the diary actually suggests that Battler was alive by the end but vanished with Beatrice or was otherwise lost and unaccounted-for. Ange would certainly have reason to feel hurt and view Battler as someone who "betrayed her" to run off to the Golden Land.

If Eva's diary said something like "Well a bunch of people got greedy and it escalated, and by the end it was just me and Yasu and Battler, and the two of them ran off and I fear they probably killed themselves," then Ange has every thematic reason to portray her brother as an enigmatic wizard who ran away with a witch and denied her what she truly wanted.

But the problem is that this wouldn't work too well in the sense of narrative timing, as it would take a construction of events that runs as "Ange grows up mad at Eva, Eva dies, Ange finds her diary and learns the truth, Ange becomes mad at Battler instead, Ange learns to overcome her anger by believing that Battler had his reasons, Ange moves on with her life." While the latter half of ep8 could arguably be said to follow this trajectory, the first half doesn't. It also makes the whole thing with the key and the book and Ikuko having it and so forth a bit questionable, as this entire thing would hinge on the theory that Ange became aware of the contents of the diary at some point before the events portrayed in the story in order to recast her mental landscape to make EVA-Beatrice her ally and Battler her enemy.

You could try to address this by portraying it as Tohya's take on Ange's mental struggle, but there's no way he could possibly know any of this unless he was just guessing, which again brings us back to "the Ange in Tohya's mind isn't real," which would make most of Ange's growth in this theory pointless since it really only works thematically if it has an impact on the observer; so either Ange's the observer and things all reflect on her own thoughts and actions, or Ange isn't the observer and her character growth has to instead reflect on whoever the observer is. Again, #1 is cleaner than #2.

EDIT: Although a thought is that the Book of the One Truth actually isn't the diary at all but a metaphor for Tohya learning that Ange already read it. Which is why we don't actually find out what she read; Tohya doesn't know, only Ange does. The revelation is actually to him, discovering that she knew. That would certainly shake up how he views Ange while also potentially fueling his fears that all she wanted was to learn the truth and die (which would be his inference from her discovery of the truth and subsequent disappearance).
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Old 2013-11-19, 16:37   Link #33245
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
ENTP huh? I'd go for ENFP, personally. Battler likes to think he's a really rational and reasonable person, especially towards the beginning, but it's pretty obvious to me that he's ruled by his emotions.

...And, well, I admittedly have a bias that might particularly make me want to type him that way, mostly because I love how it makes this image basically a summary of Umineko's plot in a nutshell. But he definitely strikes me as a feeling type.
LOL, amazing picture.
Okay guess I didn't really think of that much, yeah Battler's much more of an idealist then a rational.

Edit :
So I'm not really sure of all of them but almost.
Kumasawa : ENFJ - The Giver - Visionary
Yasu - INFJ - The Protector - Visionary
Battler - ENFP - The Inspirer - Visionary
Maria - INFP - The Idealist - Visionary
Hideyoshi - ESTP - The Doer - Artisan
Genji - ISTP - The Mechanic - Artisan
Jessica - ESFP - The Performer - Artisan
Rosa - ISFP - The Artist - Artisan
Eva - ESTJ - The Guardian - Protector
Natsuhi - ISTJ - The Duty Fulfiller - Protector
Gohda - ESFJ - The Caregiver - Protector
George - ISFJ - The Nuturer - Protector
Rudolf - ENTJ - The Executive - Rational
Nanjo - INTJ - The Scientist - Rational
Krauss - ENTP - The Visionary - Rational
Kyrie - INTP - The Thinker - Rational

Oh and Ange is definitively an INFJ as well.

This is clearly what Ryuukishi had in mind, you just don't get all 16 MBTI types "thanks to luck or coincidence".
Now it even seems he's using more or less textbook definition of them.
If anyone wants to make speculation about X or Y characters, what they can do, how they would react to stress, etc, I believe checking their MBTI personality type would be the easiest thing to do.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2013-11-21 at 09:40.
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Old 2013-11-21, 18:09   Link #33246
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Didn't Ange suspect that the forgeries were written by Battler? That would probably be enough for her to see him as a living person who betrayed her.

e: If the fantasy scenes were in the actual forgeries (I'm not sure if they are?) then she'd have fairly decisive evidence since characters from Maria's grimoire appear in them.
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Old 2013-11-21, 18:22   Link #33247
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Why do you think Ange's an INFJ? As an INFJ myself, I'm more than happy to share the personality type with her~ I've read that a broken INFJ can be one of the scarier personality types, and Ange certainly does have a lot of issues (though considering her past, she turned out much more functional than many people might have in her situation).
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Old 2013-11-21, 20:01   Link #33248
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Because young INFJs can be quite "magical" (to take umineko ideas) before reality hits them in the face. While the "strong" INFP Maria can continue to "dream" even when that happens, the INFJ tend to become drastically disenchanted with reality and can appear from an outside pov to be a thinker rather then a feeler (but really is on the verge of crying ^^;; ). That seems to describe Ange fairly well. Oh and she shifts between blaming Eva for everything, and blaming herself for everything related to Eva.

Well guess there's more INFJs then I thought, yeah we're prolly the only people who really cares about personality types to begin with.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2013-11-21 at 20:31.
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Old 2013-11-21, 21:10   Link #33249
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I'm INFJ too >.>;;

I think Ange falls in this pool, at least. Yasu too... which is scary...
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Old 2013-11-21, 22:32   Link #33250
UsagiTenpura
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Well I guess I have a theory then.
Umineko is about an INFJ's hopes to create something new from the synthesis of fantasy and mystery, rather then their opposition. Fitting with INFJ's interests for both rational and spiritual things, and introverted intuition creating new possibilities from the synthesis of paradoxes.
The first is fantasy, the second is mystery, this is the "third story" mentioned in "our confession".
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Old 2013-11-22, 14:52   Link #33251
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Eh, hm, I'm not too sure about some of those. Genji is practically the dictionary definition of "duty fulfiller", so giving him any type besides ISTJ is sort of stretching it. I don't know that I'd say any of the cast fit the bill for ISTP. I'd say that Kyrie is more INTJ than INTP, and I don't really see anything INTJ about Nanjo at all (though I'm not sure what type he'd fit better). If anyone in the cast is an INTP, I'd say it's Erika. I'd probably switch Rudolf and Hideyoshi too, or maybe even switch with Eva too (Eva being ENTJ, Hideyoshi ESTJ, Rudolf ESTP).

I'm definitely inclined to believe that Ange is much more an INFP than an INFJ. Her Fi is all over the place, really, it's pretty obvious. If I get the time I'll try to elaborate some more on this stuff later.

(Side note: I highly doubt Ryukishi actually had the MBTI in mind while writing the characters, it's really just a fun thing to play with. I don't even know if it's well-known in Japan at all, and it's certainly stretching things to say that most of the Umineko cast are 'textbook definitions' of any MBTI type.)
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Old 2013-11-23, 08:20   Link #33252
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Okay, I have more to say on this.

First, I think that for some characters, such as Kumasawa and Nanjo, we simply don't know enough about them to type them with any real certainty. Sure we know how they act, but I don't know that we have much of an insight into what motivates them or how they think. Honestly their characterisation is one of the weakest points of Umineko for me, because considering what a huge role they played in covering up Kinzo's various creepy pursuits, we still don't really have any idea why. Even if Genji is boring, we at least get the picture that he's an extremely loyal person (which is why I think we can confidently type him as ISTJ), but for the other two I honestly don't even know.

Second, I'm hesitant towards the "slot the 16 humans into the 16 types" idea because while it would be very nice and orderly if it turned out that way, it can also lead to people not getting assigned types that would fit them better just because someone else already has them. For example, I'd agree that Jessica is an ESFP, but I'd also say that Gohda is definitely one too; it's very obviously apparent that he's a "performer" and it's also plain to see that he's very much of the SP temperament. Natsuhi and Genji both fitting for ISTJ is another example of this.

On Maria and Ange, I'd actually say it's more likely that Maria is INFJ and Ange is INFP, rather than the other way round.

Quote:
Because young INFJs can be quite "magical" (to take umineko ideas) before reality hits them in the face. While the "strong" INFP Maria can continue to "dream" even when that happens, the INFJ tend to become drastically disenchanted with reality and can appear from an outside pov to be a thinker rather then a feeler (but really is on the verge of crying ^^;; ).
Let's just try examining this from a different angle. I think the scene where Maria goes crying to Beatrice about Sakutaro being dead and asks why her magic can't bring him back, refusing to accept any excuses, is a pretty classic INFJ "breaking" moment of the type that you're talking about. We're also told by Ange that the tone of Maria's diary got a lot darker and more twisted since that part. I think it's pretty common for INFJs to break internally and keep it locked inside themselves like that, while INFPs would tend to become depressed in a more obviously apparent way. Which is exactly what happens to Ange, funnily enough. But yes, I think it's difficult to type Maria because for one thing she's still really young and not fully developed yet, and for another, she also seems to have some form of autism and I think her character is probably more built around that than any particular MBTI type.

Mostly I'd type Ange as INFP because her attitude to people is very much based on how they make her feel (Fi dom), while INFJs are generally much more inclined to try and understand other people and look at things from other perspectives (Fe aux). Ange wants Eva to be the culprit because she doesn't like her, pretty much. That's pretty much the classic way for an unhealthy INFP to act. Also, you say that Ange doesn't continue to "dream" after being broken, but can you really say that when she's still spending all her spare time escaping into the wonderland of Maria's diary long after she already lost her family? She's pretty clearly a dreamer at heart, I think. But I agree that it is difficult to judge.

On the adults...The reason I think Kyrie fits INTJ better than INTP is simply because she's so driven. She latched on to a single goal (having Rudolf to herself) and obsessively fixated over that for 18 years. INTPs have a reputation for being absent-minded and distractable, moving from one thing to another, where Kyrie has a very clear sense of focus and sharpness to her that is more in line with the INTJ "mastermind" stereotype. Her style of reasoning is also very cold, calculating, and result-orientated (Ni-Te), where INTPs tend to go off on tangents and be more focused on reasoning for the sake of intellectual satisfaction rather than necessarily trying to reach a particular goal (Ti-Ne). That's why I'd say that Erika is a much more likely fit for the INTP type.

Rudolf is very much of the SP temperament; not really sure why you're typing him as NT. He's primarily concerned with enjoying life and satisfying himself, and most of the time he doesn't really care about anything outside of that. And really, just read any ESTP description and you should be able to see that it fits him like a glove. I can't see him as any other type.

Hideyoshi, on the other hand, is very much concerned with security and stability, both in his family and in his business, and should therefore be fit into the SJ temperament. ESTJ fits pretty well, I think. Whereas Eva is a very ambitious and driven person, who's never quite satisfied with her current position and almost automatically tries to maneuver things to give her family an advantage in whatever situation she finds herself. That would lead me to type her as ENTJ over ESTJ. Hideyoshi is content with keeping what he has safe, while Eva is very visionary and always focused on improving things, increasing her own standing and that of her family.

I think that's pretty much all I have to comment on at this point. I might also be inclined to type George as a Fi type (INFP or ISFP) because he seems to believe in the sanctity of his own feelings over pretty much all else, but he does also show SJ characteristics, so I'm kind of ambivalent there. Everything else I more or less agree with.
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Old 2013-11-25, 07:33   Link #33253
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Uuuuh sorry but I can't agree with most of what you wrote. Let's leave it at that I guess, that it seems we don't see personality types in the same way at all, considering the people I know who are actually of these particular personalities - tho I do think I got some of them wrong.
George is nothing alike an ISFP and even less INFP.
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Old 2013-11-25, 12:02   Link #33254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
(Side note: I highly doubt Ryukishi actually had the MBTI in mind while writing the characters, it's really just a fun thing to play with. I don't even know if it's well-known in Japan at all, and it's certainly stretching things to say that most of the Umineko cast are 'textbook definitions' of any MBTI type.)
While the MBTI is not unknown in Japan, and due to Jung's fame among Japanese writers me not being surprised if it did turn up, I doubt if this was actually an inspiration.
I do have to wonder how the MBTI suddenly got so much attention on the internet anyway, considering that it's a model that has been severely criticized and severely shows its age.

On two matters more related to the content of the series, thanks to jjblue I got at least some scans of the chapters currently only released in magazine form, until I get my copies of the GanGan-Joker from October to December.
First of, two pages I was unsure what they meant when trying to decipher the Chinese scans of chapter 20.
Spoiler for Further EP5 solution from the manga:


But also to return to the question of what was hinted before it's reveal and what not. I reread EP5 and 6 as manga as well, and I can't check if this was in the VN, but something sprung out to me.
When Chick-Beato complains about the love duel Elder Beato, Zepar, and Furfur give her an explanation and it goes like this:
Furfur: Does the social status of two lovers really not matter at all?!
For example, does a man who already has a wife have the right to love another woman?
Elder-Beato: Of course not!
If he loves two, then his feelings do not mount up to a whole feeling for one.
A man like this has no right towards love.

Furfur: Furthermore, hear us out!!
Can you allow love to a married man!?
Can you allow love to a married woman!?
Falling in love with ones parent!?
Can you possibly allow falling in love with ones child!?

You see? There is a multitude of people or social positions that do not have the right to love another!


I think this example should clear up whether it is intended that Yasu was born out of incest or not...
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Old 2013-11-25, 14:44   Link #33255
Drifloon
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Uuuuh sorry but I can't agree with most of what you wrote. Let's leave it at that I guess, that it seems we don't see personality types in the same way at all, considering the people I know who are actually of these particular personalities - tho I do think I got some of them wrong.
George is nothing alike an ISFP and even less INFP.
Um, well, okay? It's not like I'm particularly married to all of the typings I suggested there, I mostly just wanted to bring out some points to prompt some discussion and maybe get some explanations of your reasons for going with some of the types that you did. It's perfectly fine if you disagree; disagreements are what makes the whole exercise interesting in the first place, because they trigger us to share differing perspectives on a particular character and to try examining them from perspectives we wouldn't have thought to before. I'll admit I'm a little put out by your putting up a list without giving any particular reasoning behind it and then closing the discussion as soon as someone questions it.

There's no problem if you really look at things a different way, but if so then I'd be kind of interested in trying to figure out how our perspectives differ and in learning more about your personal approach. It seems a little abrupt to just say "Oh, we don't think the same way, so there's no point talking any more". I don't know about you, but I'm under the impression that INFJs are generally really interested in figuring out how other people think and finding new ways to look at things, so I didn't really expect that kind of defensive reaction. I'm perfectly happy for you to question my type choices and to tell me why, but if you're not even going to give reasons then I really can't engage you on any level because I have no idea what basis you're working from.
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Old 2013-11-25, 17:28   Link #33256
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But also to return to the question of what was hinted before it's reveal and what not. I reread EP5 and 6 as manga as well, and I can't check if this was in the VN, but something sprung out to me.
When Chick-Beato complains about the love duel Elder Beato, Zepar, and Furfur give her an explanation and it goes like this:
Furfur: Does the social status of two lovers really not matter at all?!
For example, does a man who already has a wife have the right to love another woman?
Elder-Beato: Of course not!
If he loves two, then his feelings do not mount up to a whole feeling for one.
A man like this has no right towards love.

Furfur: Furthermore, hear us out!!
Can you allow love to a married man!?
Can you allow love to a married woman!?
Falling in love with ones parent!?
Can you possibly allow falling in love with ones child!?

You see? There is a multitude of people or social positions that do not have the right to love another!


I think this example should clear up whether it is intended that Yasu was born out of incest or not...
So you definitely don't have the right to love somebody else's spouse, and a parent and child definitely can't love (at least, in the manner they're discussing). But loving your niece/nephew-cousin? Totally cool.

I mean it's either that or the entire Love Duel is a sham because Yasu wouldn't have the "right" to love any of them, so all the outcomes would be fraudulent. Which would certainly be a valid interpretation for Yasu to come to, but at the same time, what's the point of that part of ep6 then?
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Old 2013-11-25, 18:13   Link #33257
Drifloon
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Well, cousins can marry in Japan, right? So they have 'the right to love', I guess.
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Old 2013-11-25, 20:30   Link #33258
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Nanjo fathered Beatrice II and Genji begat Yasu. I think that is clearly what episode 6 is trying to tell us.
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Old 2013-11-25, 22:49   Link #33259
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Well, cousins can marry in Japan, right? So they have 'the right to love', I guess.
That seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also: Still also their aunt/uncle.

I mean I'm not saying this is something she can't do, I'm just saying justifying one but categorically rejecting another is... odd. Plenty of married couples fall out of love, why couldn't you love someone else who is married? It's a very odd interpretation.

I'll ignore that it's also completely overlooking a half-dozen other forms of love, because obviously Yasu is focused on one type in particular. But in that case... you'd think the rules would have to be pretty relaxed from the start to include "my cousin/nephew, my other cousin/nephew, and my cousin/niece/best friend I'm pretending to be a boy around." If you can go to that level of deception, sneaking around behind your wife's back with someone you "truly" love can't be that unimaginable.

Hell, are Zepar and Furfur saying Bice and Kinzo didn't have a right to love? He was married, with kids... yet ep7 portrays that as true love, and it's sort of the root cause of the entire problem Yasu finds herself in to begin with.
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Old 2013-11-26, 01:34   Link #33260
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That seems a bit arbitrary to me. Also: Still also their aunt/uncle.

I mean I'm not saying this is something she can't do, I'm just saying justifying one but categorically rejecting another is... odd. Plenty of married couples fall out of love, why couldn't you love someone else who is married? It's a very odd interpretation.

I'll ignore that it's also completely overlooking a half-dozen other forms of love, because obviously Yasu is focused on one type in particular. But in that case... you'd think the rules would have to be pretty relaxed from the start to include "my cousin/nephew, my other cousin/nephew, and my cousin/niece/best friend I'm pretending to be a boy around." If you can go to that level of deception, sneaking around behind your wife's back with someone you "truly" love can't be that unimaginable.

Hell, are Zepar and Furfur saying Bice and Kinzo didn't have a right to love? He was married, with kids... yet ep7 portrays that as true love, and it's sort of the root cause of the entire problem Yasu finds herself in to begin with.
I think the point that was to be made there was that the love duel was necessary because, in the state Yasu was in herself, she didn't have any right to call her feelings love (in her own interpretation). Because she loves 3 people her love is incomplete, it doesn't amount to one complete love for one person but simply one love stretched over three.
Yes, her interpretation of romantic love seems to be that there is supposed to be only one person you love, but don't most of us hold that? Nowhere does it say that they cannot DEVELOP (恋する事が出来ない) love for a married person, or ones child or parent, what it's saying is that this love is not to be ALLOWED (許されない).

And yes, for Yasu it was apparently the greatest kind of deception that Kinzo was married; not only to his wife but also to Bice, because he could never devote himself to either completely.
And this is also why she says that neither Beatrice, nor Shannon, nor Kanon have the right to love, because they are an incomplete soul, which is translatable into "they are an incomplete love." It's not only the role they have to kill in that duel, it's the emotion that gave birth to that role being more than a role that has to be killed.

Last edited by haguruma; 2013-11-26 at 03:00.
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