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Old 2009-11-16, 15:34   Link #3321
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It isn't her place to win the game. Its Battler's place. Her motives seem to be to get Battler to play the game seriously and correctly.

This is either because she wants Battler to win, or she's getting him ready to face Beatrice for real (or Lambda, who Bern would really like to see lose). Of course this would assume yet another troll out of Beatrice, which does not seem to be the case. Thus Bern is getting Battler set up to win and/or to take on Lambda in Meta, or the mastermind in the real world...since no matter who it is, it will shock him somewhat.
Honestly what.

Bern just pretty much wants to win. Throwing in Erika and letting her twist around red and even mocking Natsuhi herself just shows it. As Ssol said, Bern was ready to leave Battler and even she was shocked and freaked out when Battler suddenly came back from the grave.

Honestly people holding on to the hope that Bern is somehow good I want to see legible reasons other than "she's just toughening him up". I mean really, how much tougher can one get from turning someone's little sister into a burger.
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Old 2009-11-16, 15:49   Link #3322
Ithekro
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And yet he stopped playing. Went to sit with Beatrice instead.
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Old 2009-11-16, 15:59   Link #3323
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Honestly what.

Bern just pretty much wants to win. Throwing in Erika and letting her twist around red and even mocking Natsuhi herself just shows it. As Ssol said, Bern was ready to leave Battler and even she was shocked and freaked out when Battler suddenly came back from the grave.

Honestly people holding on to the hope that Bern is somehow good I want to see legible reasons other than "she's just toughening him up". I mean really, how much tougher can one get from turning someone's little sister into a burger.
There is the usual oriental war tactic often mentioned in anime and manga:

"if you want to trick your enemy, trick your allies first"

Though I'm more bent into believing that Bern is just an antagonist, I'm just not buying it completely yet...
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Old 2009-11-16, 16:33   Link #3324
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Though I'm more bent into believing that Bern is just an antagonist, I'm just not buying it completely yet...
Bern being an antagonist doesn't necessarily preclude her also being part of a huge Xanatos Gambit by Meta-Beatrice to help Meta-Battler solve the mystery. Virgilia basically admitted as much in Episode 5 by saying Bern and Lambda couldn't remain in Beato's kakera without her permission.
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Old 2009-11-16, 16:47   Link #3325
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Bernkastel did have the line: "Not only do I sympathize with you, I'm almost brought to tears by your tragic fate."
So if you believe the 'Bernkastel always tells the truth' theory then mabye she's using extreme measures to avoid a repeat of the 100 year battle. Still, I think it's more likely that she's simply an evil witch.

The question I have is regarding Lambdadelta. If she beat Bern for over 100 years why was she about to lose to her so easily?
As soon as Battler came back from break she was like, "Looks like it's game set for Bern!"
It's not like she didn't know what she was doing. Ronove commented that Lambda understood Beatrice's rules.

...
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Old 2009-11-16, 17:54   Link #3326
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Bern being an antagonist doesn't necessarily preclude her also being part of a huge Xanatos Gambit by Meta-Beatrice to help Meta-Battler solve the mystery. Virgilia basically admitted as much in Episode 5 by saying Bern and Lambda couldn't remain in Beato's kakera without her permission.
Alternatively, Ep5 is just one huge North Wind and the Sun on the part of Beatrice, as I suspect.

Since Battler, at this point, has basically accepted witches... yeah...

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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The question I have is regarding Lambdadelta. If she beat Bern for over 100 years why was she about to lose to her so easily?
As soon as Battler came back from break she was like, "Looks like it's game set for Bern!"
Was she really about to lose to her so easily? I'm not sure. Considering that she effectively "won" anyway, what with Battler perpetuating the game further, I'm not so sure it wasn't all just yet another plan on her part.
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:07   Link #3327
Marion
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
And yet he stopped playing. Went to sit with Beatrice instead.
Because it was his game with Beato, not his game with Lambda. He decided if he was going to play the game it would only be with Beato.
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:11   Link #3328
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Alternatively, Ep5 is just one huge North Wind and the Sun on the part of Beatrice, as I suspect.

Since Battler, at this point, has basically accepted witches... yeah...
It would make pretty much zero sense for this to be a NWatS based on everything we've seen. Hell, the first NWatS wasn't even as much of a troll as Beato pretended it was; this was even more obvious in the anime.

Not to mention several red truths pretty much make it impossible that this is the case.
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:11   Link #3329
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Was she really about to lose to her so easily? I'm not sure. Considering that she effectively "won" anyway, what with Battler perpetuating the game further, I'm not so sure it wasn't all just yet another plan on her part.
The only problem is that Lambda's face had an even more dumbfounded look than Bernkastel's when Battler came back after learning the truth.

If it was an act she must have had a ton of faith in Battler finding the truth because it really looked like Bern and Lambda were about ready to leave Battler dead.
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:11   Link #3330
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It feels like a trap. The problem is...who is the trap for? While one logic would be that the trap is for Battler, the other suggests it is a trap for Lambdadelta. Beatrice may be setting up the trap or maybe it is Bern. Either way, the goal seems to be to get Battler to fight and look for "the truth" rather than his usual deny witches stance. If it is a trap by Beatrice, then what is her goal? If it is a trap by Bern and Lambda the goal is to get an everlasting game so they won't be bored. If it is a trap by Bern, it is to counter Lambda and Beatrice and perhaps give Battler the cause and tools to actually win the game via finding the truth, rather than just beating the witch by denying her and proving the crimes could be done by humans. That's not enough. Just that it can be done by humans isn't enough to solve a mystery. One has to figure out who, how, and why for there to be a final truth to this mystery.

Finding the how is the first step. Finding the who is the second step. Finding the why is the step to prevent it from happening.
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:16   Link #3331
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size:


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size:
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:33   Link #3332
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
It would make pretty much zero sense for this to be a NWatS based on everything we've seen. Hell, the first NWatS wasn't even as much of a troll as Beato pretended it was; this was even more obvious in the anime.
I heard that extracting the sprites from Ep5 revealed Long-Hair Beato making trollfaces (as well as Dlanor in glasses).

Unused sprites, a troll/bonus for sprite extractors, or something to be used in future episodes?

I'm just questioning the validity of the recent behaviour we've seen from Beato...

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Not to mention several red truths pretty much make it impossible that this is the case.
Ah, good. Could you post them here, then? Due to a distinct lack of alternative lingual ability, I have yet to read Ep5.

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If it was an act she must have had a ton of faith in Battler finding the truth because it really looked like Bern and Lambda were about ready to leave Battler dead.
Both Lambda and Gaap have said that witches are very, very good at acting...

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It feels like a trap. The problem is...who is the trap for?
Speaking of traps, I think everyone is forgetting the "trap for the readers" that Ryukishi warned us all about...

Does anyone have any idea what that could be?

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Finding the how is the first step. Finding the who is the second step. Finding the why is the step to prevent it from happening.
Poetic.

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Spoiler for size:
Or if they're delusional like Natsuhi.
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Old 2009-11-16, 18:44   Link #3333
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Right, but we already know for a fact that scenes can be faked in EP5 (they spent like a billion hours explaining how we could see Kinzo), so you can't even really call that a trick. The point of the blue text is that you can use it to claim that a certain scene is false. This has nothing to do with whether or not Erika lied in the trial. As I've said, I think she did lie about some things, but you can't just say "everything about EP5 is false so I'm not even going to try and look at it". If something is false, try to figure out why it is. Don't just stop thinking.
I have given my own theory on how the murder in Ep5 was possible, which means I'm not completely giving up. However I can state that with red truths alone it' like walking in the dark. To have a slightest chance of solving a game you also need a reliable perspective.
In Ep5 a reliable perspective doesn't exist, so you just have a wall of text of red truths, and while there are many of those they are not enough to reach a solid conclusion. Any theory you will make will be highly far-fetched and haphazard. Not having a reliable perspective just makes too many variables undefiened.

In the previous episodes you knew that whatever Battler sees is the truth, but in Ep5 every scene might be fake, you have absolutely no way to tell a fake scene from a true scene.

BTW Erika lied in the trial, there is absolutely no doubt about it, unless you are claiming that she really made analysis in CSI style using Kinzo's equipment. Please don't tell me Ryukishi really expects me to believe this.
Also Erika knows that Natsuhi isn't the culprit, she didn't even flinch when she saw Battler's red truth. It doesn't matter if by the trial rules that red couldn't be used, Erika has seen it and red is indisputable. By claiming that Natsuhi was the culprit, she lied, and she knew it.

Another evidence that the trial was rigged, is the fact that the detective was supposed to provide proofs to back its claims. However in most situations Erika, in the trial, didn't bring any logic proof for her claims. I have mentioned the Genji's case above, which is based on a blatant lie, then there are Kinzo and Krauss cases, which do not prove anything at all.

Regardless of that Bern used red, even though she wasn't supposed to, hinting that she and Lambda were conniving.

After all this, can you really say that the trial wasn't rigged?


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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If the Knox rules are true, it should be possible to see through the false scenes. Also, if the hints given at the beginning of the episode are true, false scenes can only be shown if all present at the scene either lie about what they saw or mistake what actually happened. So instead of being an obstacle, fake scenes might sometimes be a huge clue instead.[/SPOILER]
That doesn't work. Fake scenes are something that are presented to Battler in the game. Therefore only such a perspective matters. One of those scenes showed Battler grabbing Beatrice and jumping out of a window. It wasn't Meta-Battler who did that, it was piece-Battler maneuvered by Lambdadelta as it was clearly stated. That one was a scene in the gameboard given also the fact it was piece-Beatrice the one that Battler grabbed. That scene happened when everyone was around, except deads. Even the detective was there.
Are you telling me that they are all lying about Battler grabbing Beatrice and jumping from the window?

That doesn't work, later we find out that everyone knew that Battler simply climbed down (and no Beatrice was involved).

Therefore in EP5 a fake scene can happen in front of everyone including Battler and Erika regardless of what they truly see and believe.
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Old 2009-11-16, 19:28   Link #3334
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That doesn't work. Fake scenes are something that are presented to Battler in the game. Therefore only such a perspective matters. One of those scenes showed Battler grabbing Beatrice and jumping out of a window. It wasn't Meta-Battler who did that, it was piece-Battler maneuvered by Lambdadelta as it was clearly stated. That one was a scene in the gameboard given also the fact it was piece-Beatrice the one that Battler grabbed. That scene happened when everyone was around, except deads. Even the detective was there.
Are you telling me that they are all lying about Battler grabbing Beatrice and jumping from the window?

That doesn't work, later we find out that everyone knew that Battler simply climbed down (and no Beatrice was involved).

Therefore in EP5 a fake scene can happen in front of everyone including Battler and Erika regardless of what they truly see and believe.
The usual rules don't apply to that scene. It's known that Lambdadelta and Bernkastel were allied for that, but we don't know why. That suggests that there's more to the scene than meets the eye (such as why they're fighting over Kinzo when they both know he's dead). Also, remember that this is a replay of a game with Lambda and Bern, and we never see the original. Therefore, any scene that includes Battler (meta or piece) is automatically suspect.

As I've said before, it's also possible that the whole scene occurred in the meta-world instead of a game board. You could say that the mere fact that living people interacted with meta-characters is proof that the scene is even less credible than a normal fake scene. Because we have this proof, such a scene can be allowed. The only other scene which matches these qualifications is the one when the corpses are first discovered. Either this scene is a total lie too, or it can be explained away as a lie told by one or several of the pieces.
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Old 2009-11-16, 19:44   Link #3335
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The usual rules don't apply to that scene. It's known that Lambdadelta and Bernkastel were allied for that, but we don't know why. That suggests that there's more to the scene than meets the eye (such as why they're fighting over Kinzo when they both know he's dead). Also, remember that this is a replay of a game with Lambda and Bern, and we never see the original. Therefore, any scene that includes Battler (meta or piece) is automatically suspect.

As I've said before, it's also possible that the whole scene occurred in the meta-world instead of a game board. You could say that the mere fact that living people interacted with meta-characters is proof that the scene is even less credible than a normal fake scene. Because we have this proof, such a scene can be allowed. The only other scene which matches these qualifications is the one when the corpses are first discovered. Either this scene is a total lie too, or it can be explained away as a lie told by one or several of the pieces.
I will counter your blue truth with this:

Almost the entire fifth game we see is a replay. Everything that happens before Erika claims that Natsuhi is the culprit is subjected to the same possibility. As for what happened next we have only seen a small fragment and then everything was cut. As for Bern and Lambda that might apply to all the game. Therefore your blue truth is only a slight adjustment of my previous statements.

pieces jumping in the metaworld would be a real mindfuck. Since you claim that the gemeboard is actually a real world kakera, the pieces cannot jump to another dimension without assuming magic exists. Until this point we have always assumed that rather pieces can have a metaworld counterpart. I.E. the people we see in the trial are meta-world counterparts of the people in the island and not the pieces of the gameboard that jumped in the metaworld.

We can imagine that fake scenes exist in a third layer above the gameboard. However the protagonists of the fake scenes are still the gameboard pieces.

I'd rather not think of the possibility that you can have a piece for the third layer that is different from the piece in the real gameboard because that would mean we'd have 3 Battlers instead of 2!!!
Please... give me a break... ; ;
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Old 2009-11-16, 19:54   Link #3336
chronotrig
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I'd rather not think of the possibility that you can have a piece for the third layer that is different from the piece in the real gameboard because that would mean we'd have 3 Battlers instead of 2!!!
Please... give me a break... ; ;
Well, we know for a fact that there are 3 Battlers, or at least there appears to be 3. Unless the Battler that 'won' the study closed room and 'fought' Dlanor was the piece Battler, he had to have been a third Battler. Furthermore, if there exists a real "Beato" on the game board, then we have three Beatos by EP5 (real, meta, and hair-down).

My guess is that the middle layer for both of these characters is an illusion created by Lambda. Still, even an illusion can be based on something real (a vessel).
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Old 2009-11-16, 20:15   Link #3337
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Oh man... is it official? Three layers and three versions of the same people.

Let me summarize it:

Real layer - what really happens in the gameboard
Fake layer - false scenes covering the real layer
Meta layer - that's where the spectators are

And each layer can have a version of the the same person. So far confirmed:

Real Battler - Fake Battler - Meta Battler

and

Real Beatrice - Fake Beatrice - Meta Beatrice

Now it would be really confusing if these three versions could jump from layer to layer therefore allowing the possibility of two of them being in the same layer.

However that would mean that red and blu can be used not only in the metaworld but also in the fake layer. I don't think that ever happened before Ep5.

in Ep5 during the Kinzo study scene we clearly see fake Beatrice and fake Battler using blue against Dlanor and company.
What layer is that? If that was a meta layer then that means we have two Battlers in the metaworld! And two Beatrices. That's messed up. And then again is that really possible? Since it is said that Lambda was controlling their actions then it means they were in the gameboard. I think it can be safely stated that the fake layer and real layer are both inside the gameboard.
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Old 2009-11-16, 20:53   Link #3338
Ithekro
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Please... give me a break... ; ;
No break for you.

Actually having another board makes sense in some ways. This is Lambda's game. Instead of recreating the gameboard, she makes another gameboard based on both the Meta and the real world, and then Meta-Battler enters the game. Thus it is possible that the Game 5 board is not on the real gameboard at all, and Erika is a fake as well...birthed from Lambda's game via Bern. The difference is that some layers are pulled back and exposed while others go all wacky and confusing.

Battler's challenge, if this is the case, would be to break through the new meta-gameboard and use that knowledge to solve Beatrice's gameboard...since he's the gamemaster now. And if he's the GM, Beatrice isn't anymore. Thus Battler can finish the game his way. Now if there are two GMs...well...it will be amusing to watch.
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Old 2009-11-16, 21:44   Link #3339
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I've assumed a 3-layer world at least since EP5 came out.

Real Beato(You can't stop me now, anti-shippers!) who can't do magic but CAN not crush the spirits of an abused little girl - Magic world Beato - Meta-Beato(Hair down).
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Old 2009-11-16, 23:07   Link #3340
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I've assumed a 3-layer world at least since EP5 came out.

Real Beato(You can't stop me now, anti-shippers!) who can't do magic but CAN not crush the spirits of an abused little girl - Magic world Beato - Meta-Beato(Hair down).
Even in the absence of facts and evidence against her? That's delusional, but I guess that's what shippers are in general.
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