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Old 2013-11-29, 18:05   Link #33401
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
JTiKey was the one who wrote it, so you can blame him for how the theory is presented in the wiki. I find it sad that the major support of the theory, the hints, are rather shallow:



That isn't really substantial. Calling servants a derogatory name is natural for those who have a high view of themselves especially when relating their own self- worth to those of their servants who they believe aren't worth much at all.
Yes, not mentioning Rosa grew up with Genji calling himself and his fellow servants furnitures so she might have ended up being influenced into using such way to refer to the servants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
And? Symbolism isn't a key piece of evidence when considering whether a person is a culprit of a murder. It's meant as an abstract that not only represents itself but something. The rose in the game is meant to refer to Beatrice and the game itself, not the culprit or anything directly related to the mystery at hand. It only has literary value.
Well, symbolism has some weight in Umineko, but I fear that's not the case in which symbolism is relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
These are the worst ones as far as my opinion goes. It seems like this plays on people's tendency to connect coincidences together to formulate a connection that isn't there.
Can we talk of:

Quote:
Kanon says Rosa is the culprit (Game 2)
Because of course what the Kanon of a fantasy scene in which he's also devious and set on killing everyone said is more relevant of what Battler, the detective, said in a real scene in EP 3 just before being shot by Eva and it's even more relavant than what Erika said in Ep 5 about Natsuhi behing the culprit.
If we've to believe one random character about who's the culprit, of course let's pick up the less believable one.
Geez, at this point, if I've to believe what a fantasy says, I can as well believe at Beatrice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
This is actually a perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about. I have two theories, one of which I think I've talked about before, and one that I believe was discussed about. I'm just simply mashing these two theories into one as they work well together.

The first theory is that the reunion was a planned mystery game by the adults to either entertain the kids and/or celebrate Battler's return to the family. It was hinted at in EP 2 when they were talking about celebrating Halloween and how the first murder was done with a Halloween theme. You can clearly see it in all games with the demonic symbols and gory murders. This puts into question the reactions and statements of the adults, servants, and possibly Jessica and George if you assume they knew about it. It could be that they were acting during certain times and some of their statements might not be truthful. If this be the case then it would explain certain reactions such as characters doing things that are not normal for their personality. This really isn't meant to address larger issues such as Shkannon/Yasu but rather a reaction to the idea that the family members have no reason to kill each other. That piece of blue can be supported by EP 8 where the family was happy during the party which shows that, unlike how the previous games showed, they were a very close family. So, without a substantial reason, the family wouldn't kill each other outright if not forced into doing so.
The trick is in your own words. The family might have a substantial reason to kill each other and actually Umineko gave some:
money problems
discord between siblings deeply rooted in their past
Kinzo's death being hidden, which was a definite source of strain for Krauss and Natsuhi
Some siblings being prone at violent attacking each other
Instability of Rosa but likely, in a more subtle, tamer way, of Eva also
Kyrie and Rudolf's weak coscience

Also, although hinted way more vaguely, there could have been discord even between the cousins.

Now, all this doesn't necessarily have to cause someone to go on a murdering rampage in cold blood, and honestly I feel that EP 7 teaparty was way too strained to be believable, but it can lead to some accidents that might lead to others accidents in a sort of rock rolling down of a mountain and ending up creating an avalanche.
So it's possible the guys went there without planning to murder anyone but then something happened and things took a turn for worse.

Also Ryukishi clearly hinted that in Prime the adults did something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Now, to explain who or what could force them, that's simple. Our Confession pretty much gives that answer. However, it's hard to reason out why Beatrice/Yasu would want to murder the family if not by the idea that she is mentally unstable. This is pretty much a given if you assume that she suffered brain trauma during her fall as a baby or is suffering through the emotional trauma of her life. It is possible that she has a number of mental issues, possibly depression, repressed anger and sadness, MPD, and has a hard time differing reality from her own delusions. So, her motive for the matters are probably the result of a skewered vision of reality, morality, and the value of life.

So, jjblue, what you say about the Golden Land being a forced fantasy could be the result of Yasu having a delusional belief that the Golden Land actually exists. Or it may be her simply stating that she's doing everyone a favor by killing them, taking them to a better place in the afterlife. Sadly, the theory of her mental instability isn't really strict in interpretation and can have multiple reasons for why Beatrice would do something. By the way, this is generally the same as the Final Culprit Theory made by Kylon. The major difference is that her brain injury is a major but not initial cause of her mental state since she had suffered it as a child and wouldn't have an identity for us to speak about.
While Yasu can have mental problems and likely had them, somehow I've heard time believing that, if she were to stage one of her games for real, it would have success. It requires quite a lot of cold blood from her but also from the accomplices, and a lot of luck. And, more important, it's sort of denied by the canon as Battler, while trying to escape with Beato, said she didn't kill anyone in their reality. My take of the scene is that Yasu might have thought to kill everyone, but either didn't have the gut to put her plan in action or was stopped.

So I'm more prone to think that Yasu only killed on the gameboard and, at best, she might have set up the conditions for the others to start killing, but didn't do the murders herself. Though we know so little about Prime that's hard to figure what really happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The biggest issue for me with any other theory is that it's clear what theory was intended and the themes of the work, flawed as they may be in execution, clearly array themselves around that particular theory. Believing there is some "hidden answer" requires the work to be reinterpreted thematically, and it never stands up to that. So either there is no hidden answer, or the hidden answer dispenses with the themes of the story... in which case those themes are pointless, and so is the work. Why bother, then?
This also. Rosatrice makes a good part of Umineko useless. I can understand how Rosa makes a better culprit than Yasu, and the Yasu's theory has its own weak sides but, at least, it fits with Umineko as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Arguably, Bern and Erika are right and that Golden Land doesn't exist anyway, except perhaps as an unattainable fantasy of Ange's imagination. Eva didn't die at her 1986 age (although Eva in ep8 acts like she both has and doesn't have her post-'86 memories anyway), Battler isn't even actually dead, and so forth. Allowing the Golden Land to exist is basically Ange's prerogative, so the disturbing implications of say Gohda (who has no family or close personal connection to anyone else) being "trapped" in the Golden Land whether he wanted to be there or not has nothing to do with "reality," where those people are simply dead. The whole thing with Tohya and Battler at the end of ep8 suggests either a metaphor for the former dying or just "allowing" the latter to escape to that mutual fantasy shared with him by "Yukari" so he can finally live as a person unburdened by Battler Ushiromiya's existence.

It's basically a pseudo-atheistic argument where the only "heaven" is conjured up by the living in the memory of the dead, so they behave as the living want and the living obviously can never join them there (if Ange dies, the fantasy of her memory dies with her unless it's shared)*. Of course then the work sort of casts an ambiguous light on the actual existence of witches, but let's not worry about that because it's obvious sequel-baiting and declaring that Bernkastel and Lambdadelta actually don't exist would obviously interfere with them showing up when Something Else Cries.

---

* This is actually one of the thematic issues that were just sort of tangential to ep8 that I thought was pretty interesting and covered in greater detail in Redaction. If KNM's work is a long attempt to provide a different answer to Umineko factually, mine is an even longer and more pretentious attempt to challenge it thematically. This is why I try to stay out of discussions of Rosatrice anymore.
Well, the golden land can also be Ange's fantasy and not just Beato but Eva had memory of past 1986. She apologized to Rudolf and Kyrie for how she mistreat Ange and they seemed to know too so it's like they've been informed about what happened after their death. Also in a way Battler and Eva died in 1986. Battler lost his memory while Eva's life and likely her personality took a brusque turn for the worse so you can say that 'her life ended in 1986' although she continued on living.

Ange said something about herself too having died in 1986, if I'm not wrong, referring merely to how her life had been destroyed by the tragedy, and not to her physical death.

In a way Umineko resembles Star Wars:

"Luke, Darth Vader killed your father!"

"Wait, Vader told me he's my father!"

"Well, what I meant is his dark side, which we'll conveniently call Darth Vader, killed his good side, which we'll conveniently call your father, so I didn't lie, I just told you something in a way that would surely mislead you but that according to my interpretation was technically correct."

"...."

Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-11-29 at 18:22.
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Old 2013-11-29, 21:38   Link #33402
Leafsnail
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Rosatrice is trying to make Rosa the gameboard culprit and the R-Prime culprit, right? I don't think she works very well for either. Under Rosatrice is it her writing the message bottles? If she is, why?

Incidentally, if there is an R-Prime culprit (which there may not be), I'm pretty sure it's Kyrie. We obviously don't have any real evidence, but all the data points we do have suggests that she is the one with the most plausible motivation and the best ability to do it (in addition to the obvious point about Eva).

Motive wise:
- She was raised to be a pitiless mafia leader
- She ran her business ruthlessly
- She is generally depicted as cold and calculating
- She once resolved to kill a largely innocent woman in order to get what she wanted
- There is an unbelievably terrible secret being kept from her, and learning it would probably cause her to snap

Ability wise:
- She almost certainly knew about Yasu's scheme, due to the fact that Yasu sent money to her house after the incident (she'd need her co-operation in order to leave Ange at home)
- She is generally presented as an extremely intelligent character, possibly the most intelligent on the entire island. This means she could easily have subverted Yasu's plan
- She was highly experienced in the use of firearms

It also works reasonably well thematically - if Battler had stayed around and gotten to know Kyrie as family, her anguish at learning Rudolf's secret may not have been as great. Also, Battler's return was probably what prompted Rudolf to reveal the secret, meaning that Battler coming back was what caused the murders.

So basically any other R-Prime culprit theory needs to try and at least match up to this amount of evidence. All of this stuff is fairly obvious, but I don't think we were given any real cause to challenge it in the later episodes (other than theories about no-one really being responsible).

Last edited by Leafsnail; 2013-11-30 at 08:45.
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Old 2013-11-30, 02:22   Link #33403
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Rosatrice is trying to make Rosa the gameboard culprit and the R-Prime culprit, right? I don't think she works very well for either. Under Rosatrice is it her writing the message bottles? If she is, why?

Incidentally, if there is an R-Prime culprit (which there may not be), I'm pretty sure it's Kyrie. We obviously don't have any real evidence, but all the data points we do have points to her as the person with the most plausible motivation and the best ability to do it (in addition to the obvious point about Eva).

Motive wise:
- She was raised to be a pitiless mafia leader
- She ran her business ruthlessly
- She is generally depicted as cold and calculating
- She once resolved to kill a largely innocent woman in order to get what she wanted
- There is an unbelievably terrible secret being kept from her, and learning it would probably cause her to snap

Ability wise:
- She almost certainly knew about Yasu's scheme, due to the fact that Yasu sent money to her house after (she'd need her co-operation in order to leave Ange at home)
- She is generally presented as an extremely intelligent character, possibly the most intelligent on the entire island. This means she could easily have subverted Yasu's plan
- She was highly experienced in the use of firearms

It also works reasonably well thematically - if Battler had stayed around and gotten to know Kyrie as family, her anguish at learning Rudolf's secret may not have been as great. Also, Battler's return was probably what prompted Rudolf to reveal the secret, meaning that Battler's coming back was what caused the murders.

So basically any other R-Prime culprit theory needs to try and at least match up to this amount of evidence. All of this stuff is fairly obvious, but I don't think we were given any real cause to challenge it in the later episodes (other than theories about no-one really being responsible).

And those theories(or the story that Meta-Battler pushed)was meant for Ange to move forward. Bernkastel revealed the 'truth' in the 7th game, and Aurora confirmed that truth exists within the Single Book.
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Old 2013-11-30, 07:26   Link #33404
Drifloon
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I think this post is pretty relevant to the current Rosatrice discussion.

Speaking of that site, they got done with EP3 recently, if anyone here is still following it.
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Old 2013-11-30, 10:37   Link #33405
Renall
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I think this post is pretty relevant to the current Rosatrice discussion.
I have this feeling that site and the Rosatrice people are like matter and anti-matter, given the latter's categorical rejection of Yasu and the former's slavish devotion to the character.

Of course, one side happens to be correct about the author's clear intent for the work, and correct that the work is character-centric. We're given the character, so we've got to make sense of it. "Attempting to explain the character away as somebody else despite no obvious factual connection between the two" is not really "making sense of it."
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2013-11-30, 14:10   Link #33406
rogerpepitone
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The family might have a substantial reason to kill each other and actually Umineko gave some:
money problems
discord between siblings deeply rooted in their past
Kinzo's death being hidden, which was a definite source of strain for Krauss and Natsuhi
Some siblings being prone at violent attacking each other
Instability of Rosa but likely, in a more subtle, tamer way, of Eva also
Kyrie and Rudolf's weak coscience

Also, although hinted way more vaguely, there could have been discord even between the cousins.
Anybody on Rokkenjima might have motive to kill any single other person, but kill everybody?


Also, the killer lacks an exit strategy. Whatever else happens, the next day will have the killer one of the few (only?) people left on the island. Any such person is naturally going to fall under suspicion.
Sure, Hideyoshi might have reason to kill Rudolf (to pull two names out of a hat), but why would he do such a crime on Rokkenjima? Why not do it off the island, where the suspect pool is way larger?
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Old 2013-11-30, 17:11   Link #33407
jTiKey
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http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...lden-witch/1/2

LOL. About, how shkanon gets confirmation.



Quote:
Because of course what the Kanon of a fantasy scene
Like every scene in EP7 and 8

Quote:
also devious and set on killing everyone
You probably are missing that he was still alive at the 1st scene, and was already proclamed dead at the second one.
-------------
If shkshit is true, does that mean Battler has four digits per hand?

Last edited by jTiKey; 2013-11-30 at 20:49.
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Old 2013-11-30, 21:33   Link #33408
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post

http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...lden-witch/1/2

LOL. About, how shkanon gets confirmation.

I think it was already mentioned but we don't know if Ep 1-4 respected Knox and Van Dine. As there's plenty of mystery books who don't, included the Agatha Christie's books who clearly inspired Umineko here and there, I wouldn't laugh much.

Also:

Quote:
R If everything happens in complete accordance to Van Dine’s 20 Rules of Detective Fiction, then the motive becomes basically obsolete and is removed from the cornerstones of the story. So that’s how it became my goal to eliminate the 20 rules and how they vanished from Umineko.
and

Quote:
K The one Van Dine Rule I pained myself about which actually appeared in Red was „It is forbidden for servants to be the culprit!“. Is there a gameboard to which it can actually be applied?

R I actually inserted that Red to test whether a player had understood the true culprit in the fullest sense. People who did not understand would clearly be mislead.
=which likely means the thing works in the same way as an overmentioned Christie's book. The culprit is presenting himself/herself as a servant but he actually is not/isn't anymore.

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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
Like every scene in EP7 and 8
I seriously doubt Ep 7 contained solely fantasy scenes. Likely Jessica was pranked in her past, Maria suffered for her lack of father and met a person who claimed to be Beatrice, Kinzo met a woman named Beatrice, came into possession of the gold stealing it from Italians, had a relation with Beatrice's daughter and the same applies for many other scenes.

But anyway which is your point? What would make that scene more believable than the others? If, according to the Rosatrice theory, we're supposed to wave away Ep 7 & 8 as fantasy, why not that scene?

And anyway honestly I was hoping in stronger hints by a theory that aims to replace the official one, expecially considering you came here and asked for the solution of the official theory to be basically spelled in red and all I get is as circumstancial as saying that Jessica did it because she's blond as Beatrice.

Really, I'm disappointed. I was hoping for much more from the Rosatrice theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
You probably are missing that he was still alive at the 1st scene, and was already proclamed dead at the second one.
Quote:
'Kanon was killed in this room'
...this room meaning Jessica's room and that's the only "proclamation" we have of Kanon's death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
If shkshit is true, does that mean Battler has four digits per hand?
Uh? He counted five bodies (Rudolf, Kirye, Rosa, Krauss, Gohda), then was lead to think there was a 6th by Hideyoshi and Kanon staring at a point out of his vision... which would stop him from counting them all with one single hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Anybody on Rokkenjima might have motive to kill any single other person, but kill everybody?

Also, the killer lacks an exit strategy. Whatever else happens, the next day will have the killer one of the few (only?) people left on the island. Any such person is naturally going to fall under suspicion.
Sure, Hideyoshi might have reason to kill Rudolf (to pull two names out of a hat), but why would he do such a crime on Rokkenjima? Why not do it off the island, where the suspect pool is way larger?
Yes, that's the general problem of explaining what happened to Rokkenjima.
Theoretically it's possible to assume that, as Prime isn't a mystery book but it's supposedly placed in the real world, we didn't have a single culprit, some deaths were due to incident, suicide and so on and that the culprits didn't act out of a premeditate scheme but due to impulse. Of course the number of deaths is so hight that even assuming this makes it as a really weird case of coincidences.

I remember in the past I tried making a random outline of how it was technically possible (although improbable even if it gets used in other stories who liked to deal with weird coincidences). But I think in the end, unless we get more clues, theorizing on what happened to Prime in details end up being pointless as, as of now, there's really too little info.

All we have is Ryukishi's hint we should suspect of the adults.
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Old 2013-11-30, 21:37   Link #33409
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Anybody on Rokkenjima might have motive to kill any single other person, but kill everybody?
Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems with any of the potential culprits on Rokkenjima Prime. For example, George. Purple truth in ep 8 aside, George has said some things in the games which suggest he'd do anything in order to be together with Shannon. And his image song is really, really creepy. Plus, he's one of the few people that Eva would have covered for, and he's also somebody that Yasu might not have been willing to go against if she knew something was up. At first glance I would have thought he was a decent potential culprit.

However...there isn't actually anything that his family could do to stop him and Shannon. Rather than being crazed over needing money ASAP, George has shown signs of wanting to make his fortune on his own. If he didn't have his family's approval for his marriage, that wouldn't stop him. There isn't really anything for George to gain by murdering everyone on the island. Not his family, not the servants.

I can think of a motive for George to kill Battler, though. But that's only one person. An oops-Battler-must-have-fallen-off-the-cliff murder disguised as an accidental death, maybe. Other than that, George might kill someone if things went out of hand and people went crazy with paranoia, but that's not a special motive for him; there are plenty of characters who could do that. Or...there's always the Kinzo-style insanity option, where he might kill everyone if Shannon died. Judging by Ryukishi's interviews, George isn't somebody who would flip out and start killing people upon finding out that his fiancee wasn't born a woman, so that's an unlikely motive.

So...it boils down mostly to a motive to kill one person but not all, and an insanity option. And George is one of the ones who seems the most plausible to me, even. Plenty of the others have even weaker motives in my opinion. In the end basically all the potential culprits don't have sufficient motives, which leaves the options of an accident (from sitting on tons of improperly stored explosives...) and misunderstandings leading to paranoia and shooting people.
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Old 2013-11-30, 21:55   Link #33410
detra
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think it was already mentioned but we don't know if Ep 1-4 respected Knox and Van Dine. As there's plenty of mystery books who don't, included the Agatha Christie's books who clearly inspired Umineko here and there, I wouldn't laugh much.

=which likely means the thing works in the same way as an overmentioned Christie's book. The culprit is presenting himself/herself as a servant but he actually is not/isn't anymore.
There's also the fact that Willard didn't even use that red on Uminekos game board but for an entirely different mystery.

But seriously, what's the point of arguing with someone who obviously doesn't see anything but Rosatrice as the truth? Just look at this statement
Quote:
If shkshit is true, does that mean Battler has four digits per hand?
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Old 2013-11-30, 21:56   Link #33411
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems with any of the potential culprits on Rokkenjima Prime. For example, George. Purple truth in ep 8 aside, George has said some things in the games which suggest he'd do anything in order to be together with Shannon. And his image song is really, really creepy. Plus, he's one of the few people that Eva would have covered for, and he's also somebody that Yasu might not have been willing to go against if she knew something was up. At first glance I would have thought he was a decent potential culprit.

However...there isn't actually anything that his family could do to stop him and Shannon. Rather than being crazed over needing money ASAP, George has shown signs of wanting to make his fortune on his own. If he didn't have his family's approval for his marriage, that wouldn't stop him. There isn't really anything for George to gain by murdering everyone on the island. Not his family, not the servants.

I can think of a motive for George to kill Battler, though. But that's only one person. An oops-Battler-must-have-fallen-off-the-cliff murder disguised as an accidental death, maybe. Other than that, George might kill someone if things went out of hand and people went crazy with paranoia, but that's not a special motive for him; there are plenty of characters who could do that. Or...there's always the Kinzo-style insanity option, where he might kill everyone if Shannon died. Judging by Ryukishi's interviews, George isn't somebody who would flip out and start killing people upon finding out that his fiancee wasn't born a woman, so that's an unlikely motive.

So...it boils down mostly to a motive to kill one person but not all, and an insanity option. And George is one of the ones who seems the most plausible to me, even. Plenty of the others have even weaker motives in my opinion. In the end basically all the potential culprits don't have sufficient motives, which leaves the options of an accident (from sitting on tons of improperly stored explosives...) and misunderstandings leading to paranoia and shooting people.
Yes, theoretically we can go and try to have different culprits for the various murders but it's pretty hard to picture a single culprit.
I can for example assume that:
- Krauss did comit suicide unable to bear any longer hiding Kinzo's deaht and in hope this would stop his siblings from going against his family and his suicide note wasn't seen, leading people to believe he killed himself... or Jessica and Natsuhi couldn't accept the note as real and believed someone had staged his death.
- Rosa losing it and merely trying to beat Maria maybe while they're in the garden and ending up killing her by mistake then being shocked by it, backwalking and stabbing herself on the fence, as suggested by Ep 3
- someone attacking someone else who had a gun and ending up getting shoot or killed (always in Ep 3 but also in the teaparty of Ep 7)
- Nanjo or Genji or Kumasawa conveniently having a heart attack due to their old age and possibly the strain.
- George, Battler and Jessica having a fight which might end with one of them getting seriously hurt or even killed even though that wasn't the purpose (George, Battler and Jessica are all represented as pretty strong and versed to fight so they could have ended up doing more damage then they planned)
- someone conveniently tripping by the stairs or by the shore and dying
- general distrust among the surviving members who might be unaware of what had caused the others to die and might feel under pressure and threatened, ending up on attacking each other.

It's still a scaringly long list of incidents, coincidences and what else and anyway felt very much like Ep 4. We know people died but as we don't have reliable sources on how and when we can't really say how and when (only it's even worse as iin Prime's case we can't even say where on the island they died...).

So really, solving Prime is more or less impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by detra View Post
There's also the fact that Willard didn't even use that red on Uminekos game board but for an entirely different mystery.

But seriously, what's the point of arguing with someone who obviously doesn't see anything but Rosatrice as the truth? Just look at this statement
You're probably right.
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Old 2013-11-30, 22:32   Link #33412
Leafsnail
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Or it could just be Kyrie. But ultimately I guess Umineko isn't really about who the true culprit is on R-Prime, so it's not a mystery we can really solve completely.

Also, Yasu a) is the head of the family, not a servant and b) is probably not the R-Prime culprit.
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Old 2013-11-30, 23:44   Link #33413
ErenselTheJester
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Arguably, Bern and Erika are right and that Golden Land doesn't exist anyway, except perhaps as an unattainable fantasy of Ange's imagination. Eva didn't die at her 1986 age (although Eva in ep8 acts like she both has and doesn't have her post-'86 memories anyway), Battler isn't even actually dead, and so forth. Allowing the Golden Land to exist is basically Ange's prerogative, so the disturbing implications of say Gohda (who has no family or close personal connection to anyone else) being "trapped" in the Golden Land whether he wanted to be there or not has nothing to do with "reality," where those people are simply dead. The whole thing with Tohya and Battler at the end of ep8 suggests either a metaphor for the former dying or just "allowing" the latter to escape to that mutual fantasy shared with him by "Yukari" so he can finally live as a person unburdened by Battler Ushiromiya's existence.

It's basically a pseudo-atheistic argument where the only "heaven" is conjured up by the living in the memory of the dead, so they behave as the living want and the living obviously can never join them there (if Ange dies, the fantasy of her memory dies with her unless it's shared)*.
The odd thing about trying to figure out what the Golden Land is that it has different interpretations for each character. So, while it's one thing for Ange, it was obviously a "heaven" for Maria and an "ideal world" of sorts for Beatrice. We can only agree that it's non- existent outside of the minds of its believers but, then again, that goes back to pseudo- atheism, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The trick is in your own words. The family might have a substantial reason to kill each other and actually Umineko gave some:
money problems
discord between siblings deeply rooted in their past
Kinzo's death being hidden, which was a definite source of strain for Krauss and Natsuhi
Some siblings being prone at violent attacking each other
Instability of Rosa but likely, in a more subtle, tamer way, of Eva also
Kyrie and Rudolf's weak coscience

Also, although hinted way more vaguely, there could have been discord even between the cousins.

Now, all this doesn't necessarily have to cause someone to go on a murdering rampage in cold blood, and honestly I feel that EP 7 teaparty was way too strained to be believable, but it can lead to some accidents that might lead to others accidents in a sort of rock rolling down of a mountain and ending up creating an avalanche.
So it's possible the guys went there without planning to murder anyone but then something happened and things took a turn for worse.

Also Ryukishi clearly hinted that in Prime the adults did something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's still a scaringly long list of incidents, coincidences and what else and anyway felt very much like Ep 4. We know people died but as we don't have reliable sources on how and when we can't really say how and when (only it's even worse as iin Prime's case we can't even say where on the island they died...).

So really, solving Prime is more or less impossible.
That's why I assume that their motives aren't substantial to cause a murder. While it is true that they have motives, it is hard to believe they would kill everyone on that basis. It is more believable if, like you said, one person killed someone else and that triggered the event. However, there is no info as to who did what, how, and when. Basically, the actual murders of Rokkenjima Prime are a blank canvas and the events can go any possible way that one can imagine. However, we can assume that there were no murders until the point of the explosion. That clears up the whole thing as a whole and only leaves the explosion as the sole cause of all the deaths. The only question is who caused the explosion and why.

Plus, there's also what Battler and Beatrice said to Ange about the family in EP 8 where Ange wondered why the family was so happy in their party and the two said that the family was always that happy. I would assume that this was a hint that the family, despite their problems, loved each other very much and the motives provided by the earlier games are an exaggeration of their more weaker aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
While Yasu can have mental problems and likely had them, somehow I've heard time believing that, if she were to stage one of her games for real, it would have success. It requires quite a lot of cold blood from her but also from the accomplices, and a lot of luck. And, more important, it's sort of denied by the canon as Battler, while trying to escape with Beato, said she didn't kill anyone in their reality. My take of the scene is that Yasu might have thought to kill everyone, but either didn't have the gut to put her plan in action or was stopped.

So I'm more prone to think that Yasu only killed on the gameboard and, at best, she might have set up the conditions for the others to start killing, but didn't do the murders herself. Though we know so little about Prime that's hard to figure what really happened.
Yasu doesn't necessarily have to make her mystery fiction but she just needs to have a desire to kill them and her motives for doing so can range from a broken heart to a valueless view of life. As long as she feels justified for what she does, it doesn't require her to be "cold- blooded" or any amount of luck since all she has to do is flip the switch and wait until the bombs blow.

However, what you said is true since Battler didn't blame her. It is more than likely that she just simply blamed herself for what happened, possibly because she showed them the bomb and someone set it off.
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Old 2013-12-01, 06:01   Link #33414
jTiKey
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Quote:
I think it was already mentioned but we don't know if Ep 1-4 respected Knox and Van Dine.
LOL, why is it RED is the original, but black in the english ver.?

Quote:
He counted five bodies
Read please.




Oh wait. I found how EP3 is solved:


Last edited by jTiKey; 2013-12-01 at 06:55.
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Old 2013-12-01, 07:08   Link #33415
Drifloon
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Except he didn't look closely at Shannon's "body", not even closely enough to see that it was Shannon. Her name is the only one he doesn't mention. We can surmise that he saw something vaguely body-shaped, or even just inferred that there was a body there from the way the others were standing. This stuff has been discussed to death lots of times; these arguments aren't really anything new, you know.
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Old 2013-12-01, 07:16   Link #33416
jTiKey
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Except he didn't look closely at Shannon's "body", not even closely enough to see that it was Shannon. Her name is the only one he doesn't mention. We can surmise that he saw something vaguely body-shaped, or even just inferred that there was a body there from the way the others were standing. This stuff has been discussed to death lots of times; these arguments aren't really anything new, you know.
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed

Guess, how many did he see? Hint: it was more then he had fingers on his hand.
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Old 2013-12-01, 07:52   Link #33417
Cao Ni Ma
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Did you not read ep5?

Did you see that yourself, Miss Detective...? It may be true that all corpses, no matter whose, would not lead to a mistaken autopsy, ......but it has never been said that there was a rule against something other than a corpse being called a corpse.

I'd recommend everyone to just add you to their ignore list and just starve you off attention since that seems to be the only reason why you post.
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Old 2013-12-01, 08:44   Link #33418
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed
Well, Shannon was not unidentified, Hideyoshi and Kanon said she still had half her face and when they replied to George's question whether that body had a ring on it's hand it gave additional credibility to the identity of any possible body.

Quote:
Guess, how many did he see? Hint: it was more then he had fingers on his hand.
EDIT: Managed to find the scene in a playthrough:
Quote:
服装でわかる。
・・・・・・ウチのクソ親父に、霧江さん。・・・蔵臼伯父さんに楼座伯母さん。・・・・・・向こうは、・・ ・郷田さんに、・・・まだいるのか?何人死んでんだよ・・・。・・・・・・ふざけんなよ、片手じゃ折る指が 足りねぇぞ、畜生ぉおおおぉッ!!!
Which closely translates to something like:
Quote:
You knew from their clothes. .......next to my bloody old man is Kyrie-san. ...Next to Krauss-ojisan is Rosa-obasan. ....over there, ...next to Gohda-san, ...are there more? That's too many deaths........you're fucking kidding me, I already ran out of fingers on one hand, son of a bitch!!!
Still, thank you Higurashi-Z!
Yeah, he basically starts with, "Next to Gohda...is there even more?!" which is likely because of Hideyoshi and Kanon positioning themselves in the far back.

Last edited by haguruma; 2013-12-01 at 09:46.
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Old 2013-12-01, 09:35   Link #33419
Higurashi-Z
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Quote:
Can somebody please look up that line in the Japanese script? I'm searching for it, but can only find the Japanese scripts of Episode 4-6...
And my Umineko game-disc is not in my reach right now.

He is wrong. Battler only said that it couldn't fit in one hand after counting 5 and saying "まだいるのか?" but is never said that he saw 6 people there. But he thought that could be more than 5 because how people were standing there.
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Old 2013-12-01, 11:02   Link #33420
jTiKey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Did you not read ep5?

Did you see that yourself, Miss Detective...? It may be true that all corpses, no matter whose, would not lead to a mistaken autopsy, ......but it has never been said that there was a rule against something other than a corpse being called a corpse.

I'd recommend everyone to just add you to their ignore list and just starve you off attention since that seems to be the only reason why you post.
THAT WAS RONOVE'S BLUE TRUTH regarding Virgilia's red truth about the "at a glance everybody could confirm that they are dead". But who am I talking to?..

What about Will said about Shannon's dead face? How ridicilously will you interpret that?

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-12-02 at 02:10.
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