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Old 2013-12-02, 11:48   Link #33501
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post

It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
And for the room it was said, "No routes for escape, except this door, exist!"
Also, this would break the definition of a locked room that Beatrice gave us in EP3, or might even count under hidden and not formerly announced hidden passage.

Ah, of course. And there's also the other red... Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

So, Kanon never left the room. However, Kanon does not exist in the guest room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
So I'll stick with dead Kanon.
Where did Kanon go? Kanon did not leave the guest room, yet Kanon does not exist in the guest room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
Erm... LambaBern talked about a posibility. I gave you one. Beato is already dead anyway.
Sorry, but I have to press you on this issue, because you haven't answered the question at all. That scene is stated to be something which reveals Beatrice's heart, and reveals the biggest mystery of the gameboards, which is the same thing as killing Beatrice. It has to be something major. Something vital, which would reveal Rosa's heart and her biggest riddle.

Erika not really existing because she was only there due to a special rule does not even begin to be important enough. Is Erika a part of Rosa's heart, her biggest riddle, and is revealing her to not to have existed on Prime the same thing as killing Rosa? That seems to be what you're saying, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If Rosatrice theory is to be defended at all, it must be able to account for why the solution to that locked room was so vitally important. Surely, if you believe that Rosatrice is correct, you have no need to shy away from answering that question.
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Old 2013-12-02, 11:50   Link #33502
Higurashi-Z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
As it seems for Ryu in his mystery novel - yes.




Aka, it's not Rosa who said the "I keep my promises".
. Sorry i'm not following... If it was not Rosa/Beatrice who said that? About who this red is referred?
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Old 2013-12-02, 11:52   Link #33503
jTiKey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Question: If ep6 has no detective, how can it be Van Dine compliant? Two of his rules are "there must be a detective" and "a detective isn't a detective unless he detects." Even if you argue someone other than Erika is ep6's detective, they don't investigate.

Obviously not an issue if ep6 isn't supposed to be Van Dine compliant, but you seem to be of the opinion that it, and everything, is.
EP6 isn't even a mystery story, it's a prank the family did on Erika. There is no culprin we must find. We only have a crazy killer name Erika.

Know what? Every magic scene isn't a mystery story either! It doesn't imply nor Knox nor Dine! EP7 and 8 aren't mystery stories too!

The mystery side of umineko, aka board games do imply Knox and Dine. If you don't like them all, then just accept the red ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Higurashi-Z View Post
. Sorry i'm not following... If it was not Rosa/Beatrice who said that? About who this red is referred?
Read my answer closely and maybe few times. If you don't get it, I'm sorry. I can't explane it more easy.

Quote:
Where did Kanon go? Kanon did not leave the guest room, yet Kanon does not exist in the guest room.
He is dead. He doesn't exist anymore.

Remember game 5 and the "Kinzo doesn't exist" thus his corsple was on the islant? Why should Kanon's corsple be counted as "Kanon exists"?

Quote:
That scene is stated to be something which reveals Beatrice's heart, and reveals the biggest mystery of the gameboards, which is the same thing as killing Beatrice. It has to be something major. Something vital, which would reveal Rosa's heart and her biggest riddle.
It were just 2 sentences between witches. Why are you making it a big problem?
The truth of Rokkenjima Prime does delete Erika's existence there, just like Kinzo's in every game.

Actully you may intepret as you wish. It doesn't contradict any red anyhow. If you wan't to corner me, do it with Red Truth, but not stuff that everybody can interpret anyhow.

As a detective, I don't even need to interpret the magic scene of 2 witches talking. They don't exist in the first place anyway.

Last edited by jTiKey; 2013-12-02 at 12:03.
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Old 2013-12-02, 11:56   Link #33504
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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
EP6 isn't even a mystery story, it's a prank the family did on Erika. There is no culprin we must find. We only have a crazy killer name Erika.

Know what? Every magic scene isn't a myster story either! It doesn't imply nor Knox nor Dine! EP7 and 8 aren't mystery stories to!

The mystery side of umineko, aka board games do imply Knox and Dine. If you don't like them all, then just accept the red ones.



Read my answer closely and maybe few times. If you don't get it, I'm sorry. I can't explane it more easy.
I don't remember the number but there is a van dine's rule that say that you can't have a crime without a body. Wouldn't you say that if you have a body there's a crime? Because in episode 6 we have a lot of corpses... Killed by Erika herself. Still there's no detective
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Old 2013-12-02, 12:02   Link #33505
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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
He is dead. He doesn't exist anymore.

Remember game 5 and the "Kinzo doesn't exist" thus his corsple was on the islant? Why should Kanon's corsple be counted as "Kanon exists"?
Because of the following quote:

Quote:
[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out.
Erika asked for confirmation about the meaning of the word people. That means that in that part of the story, "people" are defined as bodies. Which means that not even Kanon's dead body exists in the guest room...yet he never left the guest room.
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Old 2013-12-02, 12:02   Link #33506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
EP6 isn't even a mystery story, it's a prank the family did on Erika. There is no culprin we must find. We only have a crazy killer name Erika.

Know what? Every magic scene isn't a mystery story either! It doesn't imply nor Knox nor Dine! EP7 and 8 aren't mystery stories too!

The mystery side of umineko, aka board games do imply Knox and Dine. If you don't like them all, then just accept the red ones.
First, Bernkastel certainly seems to think there's a mystery in ep7, considering she asks Will to solve it.

Second, please provide textual evidence from the VN or an adaptation thereof which states, explicitly, that Knox and Van Dine are applicable to any part of Beatrice's games (that is, episodes 1-4). Please also explain away things like "No Knox, No Dine, No Fair" and the ep5 conversation in which Virgilia admits that neither she nor anyone else can tell Battler with any certainty that Beatrice's game is Knox-compliant.

Because they said that. In the actual script. Which I posted. I'm curious how you go from "there is no way to know if her game follows Knox" to "we can assume that her game follows Knox, and therefore reject any solution that doesn't follow it." Because to me that sounds like disingenuous cherry-picking of the parts of the script you want to be there but aren't versus the parts of the script that actually exist and say exactly the opposite.
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:08   Link #33507
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I realize that the thread had often its share of overboard responses whatsoever, but I will ask you all to keep in mind that debate are only proper discussions so long everyone are on good terms with what's necessary for a debate and common sense.

If anything is going wrong or haywire, please report it. But please do not escalate any discussion needlessly.

Also, I'm wondering if the spoiler thread isn't outliving its actual life span considering the arguments being quite cyclic as of late. No actual decision has been made yet, but either a new, better directed thread should be necessary, or purely and simply put this one on a permanent retirement.
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:14   Link #33508
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I understand what you mean and if it had been a few months earlier I would have probably agreed with you. However lately there was new content in the form of the EP8 manga coming, so I do think that this thread has a future for now.

(This thread being closed for a moment did shock me a bit to be honest)
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:15   Link #33509
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For the reason above, I won't have a conversations with any of you, except Pocuma or any new user I will meet here, who will want debates. If you don't wanna me here, and resolve all rosatrice debated, but reporting for no reason, I don't want to talk to you either. Have a nice day.
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:15   Link #33510
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I think things might be better-served by newer, more directed threads, but I'd be at a loss as to what specific things would be suitable. I do think it would be problematic to shut the thread down outright without a replacement, as this seems to be the primary source for discussion of the series at all at the moment.
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:23   Link #33511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
(This thread being closed for a moment did shock me a bit to be honest)
This measure is sometimes used to prevent additional posts being visible which could worsen the situation. It also works wonder when people has to calm down a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think things might be better-served by newer, more directed threads, but I'd be at a loss as to what specific things would be suitable. I do think it would be problematic to shut the thread down outright without a replacement, as this seems to be the primary source for discussion of the series at all at the moment.
As far as it goes, replacement will be provided should the spoiler thread is put to retirement.
Meanwhile, since I don't particularly follow the manga, I would like to know the progress of ep8 as of now. Perhaps it would be best to make a new thread once it is fully completed.
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:25   Link #33512
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I don't think that this thread should be shut down without a replacement. This is a really good, interesting thread in general, in my opinion. It would be a real pity for it to close, and I doubt the subforum would last long without it.

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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
For the reason above, I won't have a conversations with any of you, except Pocuma or any new user I will meet here, who will want debates. If you don't wanna me here, and resolve all rosatrice debated, but reporting for no reason, I don't want to talk to you either. Have a nice day.
I didn't report you. However, I don't think we were getting anywhere with our discussion, so there's no need to pick it back up again.
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:48   Link #33513
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Ah, of course. And there's also the other red... Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

So, Kanon never left the room. However, Kanon does not exist in the guest room.



Where did Kanon go? Kanon did not leave the guest room, yet Kanon does not exist in the guest room.
The biggest problem I have with Ryukishi's game 6 riddle, is that he pretty much ruled it out in the 4th game.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

A different person cannot claim his name!

Allow me to augment Lambda-sama's red with my Blue Truth.

If GM Battler were to argue that Lambda-Sama's red only pertained to the Fourth Game, then equally he couldn't have used Beato's Red Truth to prove to Dlanor that there was reason to believe that he could be The Man From 19 Years Ago.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenland
Sorry, but I have to press you on this issue, because you haven't answered the question at all. That scene is stated to be something which reveals Beatrice's heart, and reveals the biggest mystery of the gameboards, which is the same thing as killing Beatrice. It has to be something major. Something vital, which would reveal Rosa's heart and her biggest riddle.

Erika not really existing because she was only there due to a special rule does not even begin to be important enough. Is Erika a part of Rosa's heart, her biggest riddle, and is revealing her to not to have existed on Prime the same thing as killing Rosa? That seems to be what you're saying, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If Rosatrice theory is to be defended at all, it must be able to account for why the solution to that locked room was so vitally important. Surely, if you believe that Rosatrice is correct, you have no need to shy away from answering that question.
Allow me to take a stab at this if you will. In the First two games, the connection between Maria and Beatrice is clearly made.

Are we to argue that Yasu and Maria established a connection, or at the very least
shared the same ideas?

While we know that Rosa spent a fair amount of time on Rokkenjima, Maria(obviously) wasn't alive at that time. Rosa also Was the one who found the Kuwadorian Beatrice

We also know that Rosa feels a tremendous amount of guilt for "killing" the Kuwadorian Beatrice When Will confronted her in the 7th game.

I'd also argue that the biggest riddle was revealed not during the 6th game.

But towards the end of the 5th game.

Battler hinted towards the idea that Beatrice was aiming for "a miracle so unlikely it was like finding a pebble amongst the sand". What could a miracle so unlikely be?

What if the 'Miracle' is the revival part of the Ceremony? The idea that everyone'll come back to life, including perhaps even the Kuwadorian Beatrice?
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:51   Link #33514
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Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
The crime wasn't done for hating the entire family.
And as a group of people together they got along fine. By they may have individual issues with ech other in particular .
The applicability of The family was getting along fine' to other game boards is not the same as whether or not it was the motive for murder. They are two different questions.

And no, they didn't really get along as a group in the first four game boards either. Remember Eva sniping at Natsuhi over every little thing? That wasn't limited to when other people weren't around. Remember Rosa's 'Best Mom Ever' moments? She didn't hold back just because the other cousins were watching. I don't think things like that are really compatible with the idea of the family getting along fine when they're all together in public and not discussing the money. There are some deep seated issues there that probably could have been healed, but were not portrayed as such in the first few game boards.
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Old 2013-12-02, 13:52   Link #33515
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Perhaps a new thread for "alternative theories" or something could be useful? In order to keep things a bit more tidy. Then we could keep this thread for discussing new materials, spoilers and the “official theory” while still having another thread for alternative theories (both serious and not-so-serious).

Discussion and debate are one of the core elements of Umineko, so it’s bound to be quite a lot of posts right? Although I agree that it’s starting to get quite a cynical tone, let’s keep in mind that we all have our own opinions and interpretations. Part of Umineko’s theme is to create you own personal truth, so even if anyone thinks someone else is “wrong”, please try to still keep a friendly tone when giving counter arguments and/or your own view on things.

I personally really enjoy reading the discussions since it gives a lot of new interesting views on things. I think it would be sad if it was stopped just because we don’t se eye-to-eye on everything.

Edit: Perhaps it could even be an idea to have a separate thread for discussion regarding Yasu/Lion him/herself? Just a suggestion.
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Old 2013-12-02, 14:04   Link #33516
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I'm willing to continue the discussion too.
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Old 2013-12-02, 14:33   Link #33517
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
The biggest problem I have with Ryukishi's game 6 riddle, is that he pretty much ruled it out in the 4th game.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

A different person cannot claim his name!

Allow me to augment Lambda-sama's red with my Blue Truth.

If GM Battler were to argue that Lambda-Sama's red only pertained to the Fourth Game, then equally he couldn't have used Beato's Red Truth to prove to Dlanor that there was reason to believe that he could be The Man From 19 Years Ago.
Ep 6 also re-states that "All people can only use their own names!!" and "Battler and Kanon are different people.". The latter is a little interesting, because it implies that had the facts been otherwise, Battler and Kanon could have been the same person (ie: the same body...) and thus the same body could be capable of using both names.

Battler's argument in red to Dlanor in ep 5 seems fairly straightforward.

Quote:
(List of some ep 5 reds quoted from the wiki)
# Beato wanted me to solve it, so she made the riddles of this game solvable
# I can construct a theory with someone other than Natsuhi oba-san as the culprit.
# It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!
# Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!
# Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!
# The red truth from the 4th game that I am not the son of my mother Asumu.
# The feeling that Dad was hiding something in both the first game and this game.
# In particular, in this game, it was made clear that there were some special circumstances having to do with my birth.
Battler doesn't appear to be actually claiming in red that he could be the man from 19 years ago. I don't think there's a contradiction there with ep 4 or any of the other reds saying a person can only claim their own name. Is there something I've missed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Allow me to take a stab at this if you will. In the First two games, the connection between Maria and Beatrice is clearly made.

Are we to argue that Yasu and Maria established a connection, or at the very least
shared the same ideas?

While we know that Rosa spent a fair amount of time on Rokkenjima, Maria(obviously) wasn't alive at that time. Rosa also Was the one who found the Kuwadorian Beatrice

We also know that Rosa feels a tremendous amount of guilt for "killing" the Kuwadorian Beatrice When Will confronted her in the 7th game.
No arguments about those points. Continuing on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I'd also argue that the biggest riddle was revealed not during the 6th game.

But towards the end of the 5th game.

Battler hinted towards the idea that Beatrice was aiming for "a miracle so unlikely it was like finding a pebble amongst the sand". What could a miracle so unlikely be?

What if the 'Miracle' is the revival part of the Ceremony? The idea that everyone'll come back to life, including perhaps even the Kuwadorian Beatrice?
Ep 6 seemed to say otherwise, but anyway, let's look at the 5th game. Looking at the relevant part, where Battler has his epiphany about Beato.

Spoiler for Quote from text cut for length:


That passage makes it sound as if the miracle that Beatrice wanted was for Battler to solve the difficult riddle she had set for him and reach the truth. He doesn't tell us what the answer is, so for us, any in-depth revelations about its content would have to come later or not at all. But, if the miracle she was after was Battler understanding the truth, that would suggest that the miracle she was looking for wasn't a miraculous resurrection of Kuwadorian Beato.

Kinzo would definitely have liked to revive the Kuwadorian Beatrice, but it's hard to think of anyone else who would get a-murdering to bring her back. I think one of the main problems with the idea of anybody committing the murders in order to bring about genuine magic is that they would need to be nuts, with the possible exception of Maria.
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Old 2013-12-02, 14:34   Link #33518
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I have no problem continuing the conversation either.
It might be unusual for a series that is no longer in syndication or production (except the adaptation) to be that heavily discussed. Ripping the "official" and "non-official" discussion apart doesn't really help the discussion, it only puts a marker of non-seriousness on the non-official stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
Translation is thing, that gains context thanks by the translator. I no japanese speaker, so I can't agree or desagree here.
Just so you can get an idea that I am not speaking about interpretation but very simple grammar, please take a look at this explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTiKey View Post
EP6 isn't even a mystery story, it's a prank the family did on Erika. There is no culprin we must find. We only have a crazy killer name Erika.
Do you know why people have a problem with this approach?
It's the basic approach that certain elements, you also mentioned magical scenes and meta-scenes, can simply be discarded from the plot. Yet you say that Van Dine is active for at least the mysteries, a set of rules that actively proclaims that there should not be any parts unnecessary to the mystery in a story.

Declaring elements of a story unimportant appears to be a fallacy to many because it begs the question of why they are there. Misdirection is something different than inserting superfluous elements. In a mystery story nothing can be ignored, everything plays into the grander scheme. If there is misdirection there needs to be a hint that something is misdirection, just saying "this is fantasy so I can ignore it", while arguing with other information gained in fantasy-scenes, like the Red Truth itself, just appears insufficient.
Why would Beatrice on the meta-plane saying that her Red is the truth be more true than other witches talking about the quality of her game?

Quote:
Remember game 5 and the "Kinzo doesn't exist" thus his corsple was on the islant? Why should Kanon's corsple be counted as "Kanon exists"?
The big problem with this would be that it would imply that the number of people on the island changes with the death of somebody. It would make it possible to say "There are no more than 5 people on the island" in Red at the end of even the first few games.

The problem with Erika and Kinzo is that they exist in the same half-state of existence on the island.

Additionally, I'd like you to take a look at these pages about EP5 from the EP8 manga:
Spoiler for EP8 chapter 20:
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Old 2013-12-02, 14:40   Link #33519
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The big problem with this would be that it would imply that the number of people on the island changes with the death of somebody. It would make it possible to say "There are no more than 5 people on the island" in Red at the end of even the first few games.
Very shortly after the scene where Kanon is confirmed to not exist in the guest room, Battler and Beatrice give the There are 17 people. red, so any possibility of people no longer counting as people after their deaths in ep 6 is straightforwardly ruled out even if not looking at the other games.
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Old 2013-12-02, 15:17   Link #33520
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
The biggest problem I have with Ryukishi's game 6 riddle, is that he pretty much ruled it out in the 4th game.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

A different person cannot claim his name!
There is no rule against a person having more than one name/alias. These reds strictly forbid someone else from claiming them, but if the name/aliases already belonged to that person then its none issue.
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