AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-11-16, 23:33   Link #3341
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
ijrims, in your hypothesis:
1) What reason do you have for naming Kyrie as your mastermind?
2) How long has this been planned out? If it's been for 18 years, why didn't the Sumaderas see to it that Asumu disappeared or suffered an "accident"?
3) If she knew that there was a substantial chance of her dying, and that the Sumaderas would get custody of Ange, why not openly mend fences with them?
4) Why commit murders imitating the epitaph? There's no evidence Kinzo ever intended it to be a ritual.
5) If the goal is to see whether family members can mend fences, why kill so many of them at the beginning?
1). The major reason I could recall is that she was the most likely one to have written 07151129 on the door in EP3. And it was hinted that it was related to Battler's birthday. And it was stated that in EP3 that she had a (miscarriaged or stillborn) child at the same time as Asumu, while Battler we know was not Asumu's son. And then we know the one who know the password was also the one who wrote the letters-in-the-bottle and Maria's master. So I think Kyrie was the real Beatrice and also mastermind Beatrice.

2). Around 18 years, I suppose. I thought the Sumadera family somehow was like Mafia, but they still were not. They would not risk causing "accident" unless necessary and beneficial to not killing(Kasumi desired to kill Ange mostly out of personal issue, not rational reason. Her family ordered her to capture Ange but not to murder her on Rokkenjima). And in fact, what would Rudolf and other family think if Kyrie got into the Ushiromiya family because Asumu opportunely got an "accident" or died? This would pose enormous obstacle for the plan if Kyrie did not get into the family naturally enough. I thought the Sumadera family just gave up on the plan after seeing that Kyrie's son just die while Asumu's son survived on the same day. Kyrie revived the plan after Asumu died and Rudolf proposed to Kyrie. In fact, all the murders were planned by Kyrie but not Sumadera family.

3). A run-away Kyrie would pose less suspicion over the connection between Sumadera family and the Rokkenjima massacre.

4). This question was not specific to Kyrie=Beatrice alone. Anyone who was creative enough could use the epigraph to hide the identity of the culprit as witch. In fact, a deeper question was why doing so hard to make the whole thing as witch's doing? My hypothesis was that part of the reason was Maria thought Beatrice was a witch, second reason was emotional because I proposed that Kyrie's mother was Beatrice, and the third reason was to discourage the people from looking for the culprit but to focus on the epigraph.

5. This is a hard question. Kyrie decided who to be killed at the first twilight depending on how the siblings were doing during the "discussion". If they showed no inclination to solve the epigraph at all, then Kyrie was willing to kill them. If they showed real inclination (as in EP3, also in EP2 I think, until Rosa somehow accidentally killing every adult in the chapel), then she did not pick them but pick the other people (the servants). She killed the people she deemed as hopelessly unwilling to mend the fences and leave the people with possibility to solve the epigraph. From the beginning, she knew that there was almost a miracle that the family could mend their fence and solve the epigraph, so from her perspective she was merely giving a last chance to them. If she did not kill some people, others could have little reason to take Beatrice's letter serious at all. After all, the whole family were to die in the final disaster if no one solved the epigraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It still doesn't cover her dying in the First Twilight...twice. With red covering her death.
So true. But I suspect that every person on the island did not fit into being the mastermind in different episodes. I tried to think out a situation where Kyrie died at 1st twilight in EP1 but could not. While in EP2, I am quite sure that Rosa accidentally killed all adults (maybe it was sleeping pills overdose, maybe not) and Genji proposed to use the epigraph and Beatrice as a coverup since he was to continue implementing Kyrie's order (as stated in Kinzo's wills) anyway. Rosa agreed if Genji did not touch the remaining Ushiromiya family memebers (just her and the remaining children, in total 5 people, 18-13 = 5. It fitted. Then Rosa had to murder Jessica since she discovered Rosa killing her parents. And George went out with Shannon, in effect, a disregard of Rosa's warning and a suicide)


I am getting tired of defending my hypothesis. I want to hear some new ideas on the whole background of the game and Beatrice's motive instead.
-------------------------------------------

Concerning the EP5 discussion, do you think that Lambda's intention was really to detain Bern? Bern and Lambda took hold of the gameboard and Bern used Erika to solve the whole game. She was even bidding goodbye to Lambda before Battler's resurrect.

If detaining Bern indefinitely was her real intention, shouldn't she do something else other than to see Erika "solving" the mystery? Or in fact the resurrect of Battler was her trick to detain Bern by making the game draw again?

In EP5, it was almost certain that there was no absolute reliable narrator (from all your discussions), because the gameboard was played not by Beatrice and Battler but by Lambda and Bern. Was the gameboard the same one as in EP1-4? Or a total different one with different rules and starting conditions? (an additional piece was added to the gameboard, namely Erika)

If that gameboard was a new one, then Battler taking as GM because he has understood the whole game could only apply to EP5 alone. If it was the same gameboard as in EP1-4, then it meant he had solved all mysteries actually. How could he do so in a sudden was still a mystery to me? (The omniscient God, Ryukishi07, revealed the truth to Battler?)

My impression is that Erika showed that solutions exist for involving human only for the game, but her solution was not the truth (the intended one). So starting from EP6, Battler would try to locate the intended solution. Successfully finding it in EP7. And prevent the whole massacre from happening in EP8.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-17 at 00:05.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-16, 23:51   Link #3342
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now it would be really confusing if these three versions could jump from layer to layer therefore allowing the possibility of two of them being in the same layer.
That's exactly what happened at the end of episode 4 when piece Beatrice asked meta Beatrice to be relieved of her duty.

What about the phone call Battler received from Beatrice in episode 4:
Spoiler for Phone Call:

It seems as though whoever Battler talked to on the phone knew they were 'on the board during the game'.

In Higurashi, Rika could interact with Hanyuu while Rika is in the real world. It was stated early on that Rika can speak to 'Oyashiro'.

It was stated early on that Kanon, Shannon, and Maria can speak to 'Beatrice'. Kanon and Shannon even commented once how it was rare for both of them to survive the first twilight, even though it was a magic scene. Maria is never surprised when the murders start happening.

The meta world must exist. There cannot be a complete real world solution for Umineko no naku koro ni. The end solution will probably be similar to Higurashi's end solution with real world and meta world elements. And finally, the real world "Beatrice" on the game board is able to communicate with Beatrice in the meta world during the game. This is shown near the end of episode 4.

That said, episode 5 clearly shows that the "magic world" is fake.
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 00:02   Link #3343
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Well that's messed up. How exactly do you call the ability to jump from the real world to another world? Or the ability to know what happens in other worlds?

If it doesn't have a rational explanation it's called magic.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 00:05   Link #3344
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
If that's what your definition of magic is then magic exists. However, magic did not cause any of the murders. Battler will prove this.
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 02:59   Link #3345
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Speaking of traps, I think everyone is forgetting the "trap for the readers" that Ryukishi warned us all about...

Does anyone have any idea what that could be?
A while back I guessed that it had to do with Hideyoshi's death, which the trial didn't even bother to examine. If you exclude Natsuhi as a culprit but continue using Erika's thought process, you're naturally led to suspect that Eva killed her husband and then tampered with the door in some way, possibly conspiring with Gohda. However, since Natsuhi being in the closet could be a lie, it's possible that whoever entered the room last when the scene was discovered had actually slipped out of the closet, which is in a blind spot relative to the rest of the room.

On the other hand, since Natsuhi is alive and we saw her POV in the closet, that wouldn't be consistent with the "lies can only be presented by collaborating observers" theory. So lately, I've started to think that Hideyoshi wasn't dead in the first place. Instead, what Natsuhi heard from the closet was an act for her and possibly Eva's benefit. This would explain why Hideyoshi just happened to come into the room Natsuhi was hiding in and how he "died" even though the supposed killer couldn't have escaped a search of the room. There's not even a reason to believe he was staked, since by the time Erika arrived on the scene, the stake had already (apparently) been pulled out by Eva, and Erika very loudly announced that she didn't care about the body and wasn't going to examine it.
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 03:07   Link #3346
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
That is rather inconsistent with the title "detective" that's been hung on Erika...combined with the other stuff she does that seems rather complete (lie or not) in keeping all the rooms secured.

Come to think of it, can anyone confirm that anyone actually died in Ep5? If the bodies of the First Twilight are missing before being seen by Natsuhi (I can't recall of Erika observed the six bodies) and Hideyoshi's body isn't examined...did anyone really die?
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 03:21   Link #3347
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Thanks to the trial and Virgilia's talk with Beato, we know that:
All of the first twilight victims are dead.
George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji were dead as of roughly 12:30pm.
Krauss died immediately after Natsuhi heard him on the phone (presumably around 7:00am).

Erika didn't observe any of the guesthouse bodies at all, since they'd already been covered up with blankets by the time she arrived, but I'm not sure whether she saw Genji's or not. Somehow she found out that Genji's master key was missing, but that might just have been what she was told by Kanon and Kumasawa. There wasn't any scene of her inspecting the waiting room.

It's a nuisance, but there's nothing saying that Rosa and the cousins were actually in the guesthouse when Erika searched the cousins' room. They could have been killed during the night or something. On the other hand, since the door was locked after the bodies were found but was open later, we can at least suppose that someone opened it from the inside.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-11-17 at 03:33.
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 08:10   Link #3348
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
You mean that Erika didn't check the bodies? How can someone be so anal to place dozens of tapes around a house before the crime actually happened and then not checking the corpses with her own eyes?

We might have no red to confirm it, but this goes beyond any acceptable logic. I'd rather think the whole scene was fake.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 15:35   Link #3349
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You mean that Erika didn't check the bodies? How can someone be so anal to place dozens of tapes around a house before the crime actually happened and then not checking the corpses with her own eyes?
I've said before, where's the proof she actually placed any of that tape?

She's not a detective... that's her position on the game board, but not in reality. She's more likely a con artist.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 16:55   Link #3350
Workworkwork
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I've said before, where's the proof she actually placed any of that tape?

She's not a detective... that's her position on the game board, but not in reality. She's more likely a con artist.
Really? I say Renon and Manon are the names of Rena and Mion, and "E"Rika wanted to apologize to them or something. It just so happens that she was delayed/arrived early/some time modifier in EP5 that changed the "When" she appeared from previous episodes.

It's the easiest way for her to gain sympathy points.
Workworkwork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 17:08   Link #3351
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
If this series introduces any more goddamn Higurashi characters (other than maybe a certain "Magician of Words", who, given his title, would definitely fit in this setting) I will be very, very upset.

Besides, Erika acts nothing like Rika. Nothing. I doubt that's even her real name...

Why does she even need sympathy points? Her humiliation at Bern's hands is more than enough, and she's an effective villain as of now. Umineko needs unsympathetic villains, characters we can hate, now that Beato is all Neutral Good.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 17:24   Link #3352
Antera Caramichael
French Maid
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Poitiers; France
Age: 22
If Erika was just an evil character, I would be disappointed.
That is why I didn't liked the fact that it is said that she was just thrown in the game, without past nor future.
I mean, it is pretty manichean, and it is not Ryukishi's type to give us (a) character(s) which we can make carry all our hatred. Even the great bad guy in Higurashi, 34 was not like this, she had a past, a understandable reason which leads her to madness/"bad guy"ness. Okonogi was a military guy who follows the orders he is given and know when to stop.
The only real bad guys we can found are Tokyo, but they were minor characters, not even develloped.
I really hope that we can get more about the real Erika, and maybe about 34 and Bernkastel, but for this one I think they can be a good reason for her to act so evilish with Battler.
I expect that his position as Game Master will clarify a thing or two...
Antera Caramichael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 17:30   Link #3353
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Really? I say Renon and Manon are the names of Rena and Mion, and "E"Rika wanted to apologize to them or something. It just so happens that she was delayed/arrived early/some time modifier in EP5 that changed the "When" she appeared from previous episodes.

It's the easiest way for her to gain sympathy points.
Sure, and I can claim that since they have the same voice actress, Maria is actually Hanyuu in disguise, and she writes out the message bottle notes on the boat each cycle by looking forward in time with her magic time control powers. The witch's darkness permits many things.
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 17:35   Link #3354
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I've said before, where's the proof she actually placed any of that tape?

She's not a detective... that's her position on the game board, but not in reality. She's more likely a con artist.
Well there are several red truths that mention the seals, just look at the list made by LyricalAura

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=849

You can search for "seal" to make it faster, you'll notice there are a lot, and some of them are mentioned by Dlanor herself.
Though they do not tell how many seals were actually placed, the most relevant are confirmed.

Anyway I myself would strongly doubt the existence of these seals if it wasn't for those red truths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Really? I say Renon and Manon are the names of Rena and Mion, and "E"Rika wanted to apologize to them or something. It just so happens that she was delayed/arrived early/some time modifier in EP5 that changed the "When" she appeared from previous episodes.

It's the easiest way for her to gain sympathy points.
Yeah it is perfectly logical for Rena and Mion to be orphans and fukuin children. Especially considering they should be already in their twenties in 1986.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 17:51   Link #3355
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
If Erika was just an evil character, I would be disappointed.
That is why I didn't liked the fact that it is said that she was just thrown in the game, without past nor future.
This is Bern's doing, not Ryukishi's. Don't blame the writer for the character being a bitch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway I myself would strongly doubt the existence of these seals if it wasn't for those red truths.
Geh, I know the doors are sealed, but was it ever confirmed she sealed the windows from OUTSIDE? Because that should be impossible.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 17:58   Link #3356
Antera Caramichael
French Maid
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Poitiers; France
Age: 22
I disagree with this, Ryukishi is always the one who create the plot^^
Moreover, the meta-world isn't supposed to exist. Without that, all we got is just a young girl who plays detective. For me it is not very consistent, she is below all the over character at this state. I expect more from the future Ep, unless that I would be really disappointed by this character....
Antera Caramichael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 18:06   Link #3357
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
Moreover, the meta-world isn't supposed to exist.
Er...

The meta-world does exist, just on a conceptual rather than real level.

However, it has no effect on the murders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
Without that, all we got is just a young girl who plays detective. For me it is not very consistent, she is below all the over character at this state.
That's kind of the point. She doesn't make any sense. She's contradictory, inconsistent. She's a hijack of the game.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 18:13   Link #3358
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Geh, I know the doors are sealed, but was it ever confirmed she sealed the windows from OUTSIDE? Because that should be impossible.
Spoiler for Epiosde 5:
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 18:17   Link #3359
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
A passage that the detective cannot find is a secret passage. Therefore, a passage that Miss Erika cannot find does not exist!
I laughed so hard when I played through and read that. Best twisted logic ever.

It's literally like saying "If the detective could not find chocolate in a convenience store then chocolate simply doesn't exist" or something similar to that degree
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-17, 18:21   Link #3360
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I laughed so hard when I played through and read that. Best twisted logic ever.

It's literally like saying "If the detective could not find chocolate in a convenience store then chocolate simply doesn't exist" or something similar to that degree
This is why Ep5 is such a fucking farce. I know it's intended to be, but if Ryukishi wasn't as talented as he is, I'd be a lot angrier that we seem to be forced into accepting this.

Furthermore, Dlanor's red only works if Erika is actively looking for secret passages.

Invasion Entrance X can exist so long as the detective does not look for it, which Battler NEVER did in previous Eps.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.