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Old 2013-12-09, 05:23   Link #33601
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I still kind of like the idea that Eva, Battler, and Yasu survived and the latter two left to do a mutual suicide and Eva kinda knew that was happening but accepted it at the time. "Your brother was alive at the end of it all but chose to die anyway and I didn't stop him for reasons you can't possibly understand" is pretty traumatic and ties up a lot of themes
I actually like this a lot too, for several reasons.
It doesn't even need to put Battler in a bad light. It could be that they decided that Battler wanted to go and protect Yasu to at least make up for some of the horrible things he kind of caused. We know that even though he didn't know, EP5's ??? makes clear beyond doubt that he blames himself for the things that happened almost as much as if he caused them himself.

Maybe it wasn't even the idea of mutual suicide, but at least the idea to vanish.
Yasu had cast her bottles into the sea so her turning up would actually connect her to these and thus to the crimes, making her the prime suspect (if not even guilty on some accord), so her going public is impossible no matter how much Battler pleads.
Battler is a minor by law so it is unlikely that a Japanese court would actually hand him legal guardianship of a 6 year old, especially if his deceased parents were broke and involved in illegal activities.
Eva was always the safest bet to (a) give Ange a stable home and (b) get her away from the Sumaderas.

According to what Tohya's memories show us, it is not unlikely that Eva either thought he died by accident or committed suicide together with Yasu, either way it is likely that this "you almost got your brother back, if he hadn't valued his loyalty to that person more than you" would send Ange over the edge.

Yes, it would be the message to her, the main person who destroyed your chance at happiness is yourself for doubting Eva over everybody else.
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Old 2013-12-09, 18:10   Link #33602
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Old 2013-12-09, 18:44   Link #33603
AuraTwilight
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Holy crap I didn't know Ryukishi wrote a new manga.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
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Old 2013-12-09, 18:58   Link #33604
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I do wonder though, since that scene in EP8 goes into a lot more details on what actually motivated Ange, what society's reaction was like and what her choices were:
Spoiler for Size:


In another panel, when Bernkastel says that what she showed was "not necessarily the truth", she also says that it was all a way to test Ange, because it was the most horrible alternative that Ange herself could ever imagine and whether she had the resolve to find an even more horrifying truth and still go on pursuing it.
If we go by what EP8 now tells us, then Ange basically threw her life and any attachment away in order to learn the truth, so it can't simply be that everybody is dead.

Btw. I love the reaction to "Hey, I heard some people committed suicide after Rudolph took their money" being "Ah well, then it's not big step to killing your whole family!"
That's the kind of logic problem that we ourselves are also faced with, basically gripping at straws to find a palpable argument towards somebody being a killer above the others.
I love how the manga gives more weight to Ange's pain and loneliness.
If the people around her suspected her parents to be murderers it was way more likely they shut her out and mistreated her.

Also Eva-Beatrice's sweet smile and kindness while dealing with Ange is so touching I'm melting.

It's interesting also to see Ange's thoughts. She has already decided what the truth is, in a way. She has already decided that the truth includes her family being dead when there could be reasons for which they simply couldn't go back to her.

Ironically it's not that in order to pursue the truth she had to let go of her family. It's in order to pursue the truth she had chosen she has to give up on her family.

Even the comparison with Erika is interesting if we think back at how Dlanor pointed out that Erika couldn't disprove the fact her boyfriend had loved her but yet decided on the worst truth.

As for the logic problem... well, it's really hard to prove that someone who had never killed can actually be willing to murder, expecially so many people. It's hard to reason it out, expecially if we don't know what he's thinking.

We know that potentially everyone can kill and can even have reasons and means to do so... but the strenght of will to do the killing... it's actually the hardest part to reason over. So you go and search for lack of morals, like the girls in the manga did, but actually even criminals can draw a line at certain things.

Kyrie left her family and Rudolf never directly killed anyone. Although they might not have had a common sense of moral it's possible they wouldn't have managed to kill anyone.

After all we know that Natsuhi, so righteous and severe, not only was actually lying to cover up Kinzo but killed a servant in the attempt to kill a baby and that Kinzo potentially caused the slaughtering between Italians and Japanese... though now I'm wondering how we should take that red truth...

Was it a red truth for that game board? Or a red truth for the human world as well?
Had people created a Kinzo culprit theory because he was the only one who survived to the massacre and Bern had turned it to be true in her gameboard which we know is already a twisted world? Or is that a true fact? After all without Kinzo's confession it would be hard to prove him as... there were no survivors.

Ideas anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The thing is, if that's the worst thing Ange can imagine, what's in the diary? I mean she was pretty put out by it. If she can already imagine the notion that her parents and brother were the killers, what could possibly be worse?

About the only thing I can think of is something like "I don't know except [details Eva is actually able to confirm]." It's the only thing worse because it thematically goes along with Amakusa's warning to basically not devote her entire life to the pursuit of something, and Battler's warnings about the truth not existing (even though obviously and logically something did happen, even if it was just an accident). Really, the only thing worse than "Yup, your family did it" would be something like "I have no idea what actually happened and I'm the last person who would ever be able to know the truth, so the truth is lost." It'd give Ange's desire a collapse into apparent futility because, as far as she knows, that's it.

The problem is that Ange appears to have read something in there. So either it was exactly as bad as her expectations (in which case shouldn't she have been better-prepared for it?) or it was something really out of left field (in which case why did it seem to bother her even more than the ep7 TP and Bern's ep8 game result?).
Well, Eva likely should have known something, although that something might be incomplete and subjective facts. We know one of the censored scenes showed Kyrie holding a gun... so Kyrie might have done something that, in Eva's perspective, had to be covered up. Theoretically it can even be that Natsuhi jumped on Kyrie instead than Eva and it was Kyrie's gun that ended up killing Natsuhi, not Eva's. Though again, I've a hard time figuring out how all this developed into the Rokkenjima incident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I actually like this a lot too, for several reasons.
It doesn't even need to put Battler in a bad light. It could be that they decided that Battler wanted to go and protect Yasu to at least make up for some of the horrible things he kind of caused. We know that even though he didn't know, EP5's ??? makes clear beyond doubt that he blames himself for the things that happened almost as much as if he caused them himself.

Maybe it wasn't even the idea of mutual suicide, but at least the idea to vanish.
Yasu had cast her bottles into the sea so her turning up would actually connect her to these and thus to the crimes, making her the prime suspect (if not even guilty on some accord), so her going public is impossible no matter how much Battler pleads.
Battler is a minor by law so it is unlikely that a Japanese court would actually hand him legal guardianship of a 6 year old, especially if his deceased parents were broke and involved in illegal activities.
Eva was always the safest bet to (a) give Ange a stable home and (b) get her away from the Sumaderas.

According to what Tohya's memories show us, it is not unlikely that Eva either thought he died by accident or committed suicide together with Yasu, either way it is likely that this "you almost got your brother back, if he hadn't valued his loyalty to that person more than you" would send Ange over the edge.

Yes, it would be the message to her, the main person who destroyed your chance at happiness is yourself for doubting Eva over everybody else.
I like the idea of Battler leaving with Yasu. Maybe they didn't have to say they planned to kill each other or disappear, maybe one of the two was hurt and the other decided to take a risk and try and leave the island on the boat to get medical aid. And maybe they didn't even plan to disappear from Ange's life. Maybe they wanted to meet her later, when things calmed down.

However things happened and Battler lost his memory and either Eva wasn't informed he survived or decided it was better for Battler to never remember what had happened and start a new life.

In a way this would be bad for Ange as Eva didn't just protect her but Battler as well... although her brother is in a way dead to her, as he doesn't exist anymore and yes, now he's leading a happy life with someone else.

It would explain why Eva kept the diary with herself even when she was about to die and didn't destroy it and called Ange by her. She wanted Ange to read the diary and find out that her brother still lived, even if memory less in some hidden place or could be still alive as the last time Eva saw him he was escaping.
The fact that Ange was given the key to the book of one truth can also be seen as a subtle hint of Eva giving Ange the key to her diary.

On a sidenote the talk Ange and with Erika implied that she expected the truth to be that something caused the bomb to malfuction and explode so it can be she simply had already rejected Bern's truths so finding something that involves more than just an incident could have come to a shock with her.
Ironically though when she cames to her senses she also realized her family loved her... so the truth might have contained something that helped her to get this?
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Old 2013-12-10, 01:00   Link #33605
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Oh. Hell if I know. Maybe sometimes a meta-world is just a meta-world.
No, if you can imagine it, the original two stories don't have any written solutions to them which is why no red truth was made for them until EP 4. In EP 3 and EP 4, Ikuko had written set solutions and was challenging Tohya and the rest of the world to solve them at the time. So Red Truths were written in response to the highly- imaginative nature of the thinking process of the masses at the time.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
This is what I theorized as well when I considered the possibility so many post ago... however even to me it had always seemed a little weak.
I'll cut your qoute because I think I can reply by just saying that my theory really wasn't meant to explain absolutely everything just yet but is acting as a basis for a more developed solution to what happened in R- Prime. So I'll have a more detailed version later but, as of right now, it still has a lot of holes.

By the way, does anyone have any idea about that "world peace" thing Amakusa was talking about?
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Old 2013-12-10, 04:21   Link #33606
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
By the way, does anyone have any idea about that "world peace" thing Amakusa was talking about?
It's basically that Ange is technically in control of a highly influential corporation with a past that is challenging legal definitions to say the least. If she wanted she could sell the whole company, let it go down in flames, cancel all the stocks at the international market that the Ushiromiya group seems to have gotten back under Eva's control.
Her just tossing the group away or ignoring it wouldn't simply hurt her but a large group of people.

It is also not unlikely that at least due to Amakusa travelling with Ange, Okonogi would also know about the bank vaults, which are also a huge risk if somebody just started throwing that money around and it being questioned.

Above all, rumors about Kinzo acquiring an island full of wartime exposives and stolen gold from Italy are hovering around, but if Ange was to go public with it and actually vouch for them being true, this wouldn't only hurt the group but could kick of a whole other dilemma.

Mind you, Okonogi is apparently quite a selfish bastard, and his main reason for killing Ange and getting rid of the extremist faction of the Sumadera syndicate would be his own gain, so I could see him using words like "world peace" to influence Amakusa as well, who is known to have fought as a child soldier.
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Old 2013-12-10, 18:26   Link #33607
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A question on Ep.1 Twilight 1

Hello, experienced ones! I am going through the Umineko manga at the moment and I want to ask a question (and may be more later) without going through 1.6K pages of this thread and learning too much. Please do not blame me for that.

So... I kinda accepted that Shannon and Kanon should be the same person but I do not get the first twilight in the Episod 1 when Shannon is found and proclaimed dead among others by Kanon (no surprise) and Hideyoshi. How was it possible for Hideyoshi to see a corpse that was not there? Unless the island is packed with spare ones.

Thank you

PS Just found that I screwed and posted this question in a dead thread. I hope I will not be banned for a duplicate. Cheers
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Old 2013-12-10, 19:59   Link #33608
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Originally Posted by passer_by View Post
Hello, experienced ones! I am going through the Umineko manga at the moment and I want to ask a question (and may be more later) without going through 1.6K pages of this thread and learning too much. Please do not blame me for that.

So... I kinda accepted that Shannon and Kanon should be the same person but I do not get the first twilight in the Episod 1 when Shannon is found and proclaimed dead among others by Kanon (no surprise) and Hideyoshi. How was it possible for Hideyoshi to see a corpse that was not there? Unless the island is packed with spare ones.

Thank you

PS Just found that I screwed and posted this question in a dead thread. I hope I will not be banned for a duplicate. Cheers
My answer from the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Maybe you should rather ask: "Why did Hideyoshi supposedly see a corpse that possibly doesn't exist?"
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Old 2013-12-11, 03:26   Link #33609
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*Smirks*. I've found an interesting way to create a Rosatrice theory. At the very least, for the 2nd game, any culprit other than a Rosa culprit is impossible.

If we remember, there was the servant murders in the 2nd game. My master, Lady Lambadelta proclaimed a very interesting Red Truth:

After the master keys came into Rosa's control, never did any of them leave her hands! Except for the time when she lent it to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room.

My deepest apologies to my Master, but there's two things with her red that allows me to attack Rosa.

The first thing that I want to point out is that this Red Statement doesn't specifically rule at which time they came in Rosa's Control, just that they came into control and that secondly, they never left her hands.

Since no Statement's been made about the before or after, we can highly assume that Rosa already has possession of a servant's key at the time of the murder. This is also how the six-closed room ring murder took place.

What about Jessica and Kanon's murder?

The struggle depicted in the metaphysical world occurred in the real world as well(obviously disregarding the metaphysical aspects of it). While Rosa succeeded in murdering Jessica and Kanon, Kanon's Master Key fell out of his pocket. Either Rosa didn't notice this, or that around the time of the murder's discovery, she didn't have enough time to make it look like a closed room and get the key.

With this blue truth, it's still possible to assign Rosa as the culprit, even if she didn't have Kanon's master key at the time.

Natsuhi's murder is also easy to explain along similar lines to my theory about Jessica/Kanon.

The murder was committed long before the group actually made it to Natsuhi's room. Rosa murdered Natsuhi, restructured the closed room and afterwards gave the key to Battler.

The key to the trickery in which the Rosa deception occurs is assuming she doesn't have access to the key when the murder occurs. Even if Rosa doesn't have access to the keys when the murder occurs, it's still possible for her to have access to the keys before or even after the murder occurs.

(This is the exact same argument Battler used to explain how 'he' could have murdered George's group in the 5th game).
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Old 2013-12-11, 05:14   Link #33610
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Depending on how you interpret the red, you must fulfil 1 condition though: The must be in possesion of all 5 master keys, when she gave 1 to Battler to open Natsuhi's room.

So... when did she retrieve Kanon's master key?
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Old 2013-12-11, 06:17   Link #33611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Depending on how you interpret the red, you must fulfil 1 condition though: The must be in possesion of all 5 master keys, when she gave 1 to Battler to open Natsuhi's room.

So... when did she retrieve Kanon's master key?
If you mean during Kanon's murder, I posited a blue theory that Rosa either didn't notice Kanon's key dropping or didn't have the time to collect the key after everyone came to the room.

While Ryukishi may have made a Nanjo Accomplice theory pretty much canon via implication for Yasu, I don't want to do that. It's much more fun(and interesting) to use a theory that's neither been proven nor denied in red.

Dr. Nanjo had been killed by Rosa shortly in between Jessica and Natsuhi's deaths. Because the servant's room was relatively farther away from the others, it's possible to hide Dr. Nanjo's death until later. Rosa took Kanon's key after killing Nanjo who had possession over it at the time.
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Old 2013-12-11, 09:48   Link #33612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Dr. Nanjo had been killed by Rosa shortly in between Jessica and Natsuhi's deaths. Because the servant's room was relatively farther away from the others, it's possible to hide Dr. Nanjo's death until later. Rosa took Kanon's key after killing Nanjo who had possession over it at the time.
Just to clarify, about what game are we talking right now?
Because in the 2nd game Natsuhi's death occurs during the 1st twilight
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Old 2013-12-11, 14:14   Link #33613
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You know, I think the biggest blank in my understanding of the series is still the bomb. And I don't mean in terms of how it got there or how it works, but why it was used. It's generally accepted that Yasu intended to use it, or at least had a contingency plan that involved using it. Why? Thematically it seems clear that Yasu never intended to actually kill anyone.

I guess Yasu must have been planning to fake a "Rokkenjima incident", at least as a backup plan? The gold and contacts Kinzo had given her would probably let everyone establish new identities. Then the message bottles would confuse the hell out of everybody. I'm not sure if she could win the support of the parents on this though, considering that Natsuhi and Eva in particular value the honour of the Ushiromiya family. Maybe she'd give people the option to "survive" the blast if they so wished? Or maybe the siblings disagreeing with this plan is what caused it not to work? I'm kinda lost on this one too be honest.

e: I'm getting a strong feeling that the whole "love question" thing from episode 4 is relevant, in terms of giving people a choice about who dies.
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Old 2013-12-11, 15:26   Link #33614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
My answer from the other thread:
Maybe you should rather ask: "Why did Hideyoshi supposedly see a corpse that possibly doesn't exist?"
GreyZone, I am totally in the realm of your nickname after your answer.
Do you imply that Hideyoshi did not see a corpse but rather was told by Kanon? As far as it is shown, Kanon points to the corpse and the ring but says nothing at the moment.
A theory of Shannon/Kanon threatening family members into cooperation seems unreasonable at the least.
So, an extra corpse after all or a dummy?
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Old 2013-12-11, 15:30   Link #33615
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GreyZone, I am totally in the realm of your nickname after your answer.
Do you imply that Hideyoshi did not see a corpse but rather was told by Kanon? As far as it is shown, Kanon points to the corpse and the ring but says nothing at the moment.
A theory of Shannon/Kanon threatening family members into cooperation seems unreasonable at the least.
So, an extra corpse after all or a dummy?
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

No dummies. Either there was a corpse or not.
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Old 2013-12-11, 15:44   Link #33616
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Just to clarify, about what game are we talking right now?
Because in the 2nd game Natsuhi's death occurs during the 1st twilight
I was going off memory, based on the fact that Rosa gave Battler the key to open up Natsuhi's room. I was suggesting that There was a time interval between the deaths of Natsuhi and Nanjo. In that time interval, Rosa obtained the master key from Nanjo.

I'd have to play the game again, but my theory pretty much works with whoever was murdered before we saw Nanjo's body. Rosa created the illusion that she didn't have the opportunity to possess a key before a murder occurred, but that's not true if she does it in a similar fashion to this.
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Old 2013-12-11, 15:48   Link #33617
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The people found dead in Natsuhi's room were Shannon, George and Gohda. They all appear after Rosa takes the keys so I don't think that theory really works.
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Old 2013-12-11, 18:16   Link #33618
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Originally Posted by passer_by View Post
GreyZone, I am totally in the realm of your nickname after your answer.
Do you imply that Hideyoshi did not see a corpse but rather was told by Kanon? As far as it is shown, Kanon points to the corpse and the ring but says nothing at the moment.
A theory of Shannon/Kanon threatening family members into cooperation seems unreasonable at the least.
So, an extra corpse after all or a dummy?
Well, I don't know exactly how far you're in your knowledge of Umineko so I wouldn't want to spoil you too much.
Anyway you've already figured out that there's no Shannon's corpse in the shed so either Hideyoshi is lying or he's being tricked into seeing something that's not there.

Now to understand Hideyoshi's mindset and see if it could be he was lying or he was seeing things, it can be of some help to think at Hideyoshi and Eva's behaviour after all this mess, when they decided to leave everyone else (even George) and stay alone in the room and behaved as they just didn't find 5/6 corpses and had a killer on the loose on the island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
You know, I think the biggest blank in my understanding of the series is still the bomb. And I don't mean in terms of how it got there or how it works, but why it was used. It's generally accepted that Yasu intended to use it, or at least had a contingency plan that involved using it. Why? Thematically it seems clear that Yasu never intended to actually kill anyone.

I guess Yasu must have been planning to fake a "Rokkenjima incident", at least as a backup plan? The gold and contacts Kinzo had given her would probably let everyone establish new identities. Then the message bottles would confuse the hell out of everybody. I'm not sure if she could win the support of the parents on this though, considering that Natsuhi and Eva in particular value the honour of the Ushiromiya family. Maybe she'd give people the option to "survive" the blast if they so wished? Or maybe the siblings disagreeing with this plan is what caused it not to work? I'm kinda lost on this one too be honest.

e: I'm getting a strong feeling that the whole "love question" thing from episode 4 is relevant, in terms of giving people a choice about who dies.
You can go through it in 2 ways:

- Yasu never intended to kill anyone, the bomb existed but was merely a device she used in her stories to make them more mysterious. In Prime though the bomb ended up on exploding anyway for unrelated reasons.

- Yasu intended to kill everyone and then seal what had happened in those two days in a catbox, thanks to the bomb that would make impossible to make investigation. In this way no one would know if they lived or died or what happened to them and it could be that, as this would generate infinite possibilities, in her mind, this was the same as saying that it was possible they had reached the Golden Land.

Also good hints to why people became Yasu's accomplices can be found in Our Confession.

In truth the love question can also be a subtle way to ask Battler if there's a girl he love and this girl is Shannon or he found someone else. Battler's answer is, once you finish reading Umineko, the most ironic thing ever.
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Old 2013-12-11, 19:23   Link #33619
passer_by
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Now to understand Hideyoshi's mindset and see if it could be he was lying or he was seeing things, it can be of some help to think at Hideyoshi and Eva's behaviour after all this mess, when they decided to leave everyone else (even George) and stay alone in the room and behaved as they just didn't find 5/6 corpses and had a killer on the loose on the island.
jjblue1, I am on the chapter 6 and still the biggest headache is the chapter 1.

It does look like Eva and Hideyoshi became lucky successors of the Ushiromiya family by chance (hahaha!). It does not explain the appearance of Shannon's “corpse”, though. If Hideyoshi lies about the corpse so do Kanon and Nanjo; which makes sense only if Eva and Hideyoshi teamed up with ALL FOUR remaining servants. I do not see a motive for servants to do it. Well… Honestly, I do not get motives of Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa in general except for the money (booooring) but Eva does not have any.
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Old 2013-12-11, 19:40   Link #33620
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Chapter 6 may give you some ideas as to why they would team up. Chapter 5 already hinted at the possibility a bit.
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