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Old 2013-12-11, 19:56   Link #33621
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
You know, I think the biggest blank in my understanding of the series is still the bomb. And I don't mean in terms of how it got there or how it works, but why it was used. It's generally accepted that Yasu intended to use it, or at least had a contingency plan that involved using it. Why? Thematically it seems clear that Yasu never intended to actually kill anyone.
In my opinion, she really did never fully intend to use the bomb to kill anybody. She might have considered it in her fantasies but never would have had the power to pull it through. But she might have considered using it after everybody got off the island, as a way to escape not only from her life, but cut the ties of the Ushiromiya family altogether.

The general theory though is that it was used to cover up something horrible that actually happened on the island, as an agreement between Eva, Battler and Yasu (largely hinted at in EP8).

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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I was going off memory, based on the fact that Rosa gave Battler the key to open up Natsuhi's room. I was suggesting that There was a time interval between the deaths of Natsuhi and Nanjo. In that time interval, Rosa obtained the master key from Nanjo.
Between Nanjo and Kumasawa disappearing from the servants room and him being found in the backyard, Rosa, Maria and Battler were barricaded up in the parlor. From the discovery of Nanjo's body they immediately went up to Natsuhi's room, where they found Gohda, George, and Shannon dead.

I would really advise you to at least watch the anime or read the manga, to get an idea of the chain of events.

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Originally Posted by passer_by View Post
jjblue1, I am on the chapter 6 and still the biggest headache is the chapter 1.
Do you mean CHAPTER or Episode? Because chapter 6 of Episode 1 would imply that you spoiled yourself for some elements.

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I do not see a motive for servants to do it. Well… Honestly, I do not get motives of Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa in general except for the money (booooring) but Eva does not have any.
Then, could you possibly construct motives for them helping a culprit who has some kind of connection to Beatrice? Think about everything that we learned, not only about the culprit now, but also about Beatrice, the island and the servants connection to its history.
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Old 2013-12-11, 20:12   Link #33622
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
In my opinion, she really did never fully intend to use the bomb to kill anybody. She might have considered it in her fantasies but never would have had the power to pull it through. But she might have considered using it after everybody got off the island, as a way to escape not only from her life, but cut the ties of the Ushiromiya family altogether.

The general theory though is that it was used to cover up something horrible that actually happened on the island, as an agreement between Eva, Battler and Yasu (largely hinted at in EP8).


Between Nanjo and Kumasawa disappearing from the servants room and him being found in the backyard, Rosa, Maria and Battler were barricaded up in the parlor. From the discovery of Nanjo's body they immediately went up to Natsuhi's room, where they found Gohda, George, and Shannon dead.

I would really advise you to at least watch the anime or read the manga, to get an idea of the chain of events.


Do you mean CHAPTER or Episode? Because chapter 6 of Episode 1 would imply that you spoiled yourself for some elements.


Then, could you possibly construct motives for them helping a culprit who has some kind of connection to Beatrice? Think about everything that we learned, not only about the culprit now, but also about Beatrice, the island and the servants connection to its history.

I watched both the anime and played the games 1-4. The actual scene itself wasn't buried in my mind. I've just been sifting through reds and blues to see if there's a loop hole.

Yasu couldn't have been the culprit of the 2nd game, since Shannon is dead(and that game in particular, really put emphasis on Kanon's existence or lack thereof. We wouldn't know until later(5th game), but clearly Kanon's never real.

I'll elaborate on Lambda's red. Shannon is Kanon. This is true of all games.. Kanon is like the fantasy creatures: An illusion.

As for why the family would play along(aside from the money). It could be they felt sympathy for Shannon who was adopted from a homeless shelter and basically knew no one.
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Old 2013-12-11, 20:23   Link #33623
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I watched both the anime and played the games 1-4. The actual scene itself wasn't buried in my mind. I've just been sifting through reds and blues to see if there's a loop hole.

Yasu couldn't have been the culprit of the 2nd game, since Shannon is dead(and that game in particular, really put emphasis on Kanon's existence or lack thereof. We wouldn't know until later(5th game), but clearly Kanon's never real.

I'll elaborate on Lambda's red. Shannon is Kanon. This is true of all games.. Kanon is like the fantasy creatures: An illusion.

As for why the family would play along(aside from the money). It could be they felt sympathy for Shannon who was adopted from a homeless shelter and basically knew no one.
When Shannon died, no more murders occured until 24:00.
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Old 2013-12-11, 20:38   Link #33624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Do you mean CHAPTER or Episode? Because chapter 6 of Episode 1 would imply that you spoiled yourself for some elements.
Oops... I screwed.
Episodes. Not Chapters.

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Originally Posted by haguruma
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
Haguruma, is there any indication that the red truth applies across all Episodes?
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Old 2013-12-11, 20:50   Link #33625
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post

Then, could you possibly construct motives for them helping a culprit who has some kind of connection to Beatrice? Think about everything that we learned, not only about the culprit now, but also about Beatrice, the island and the servants connection to its history.
I do have ideas, but all of them are sunk after I try to think as a servant: "Beatrice" is a nice kid except for being crazy. Lets help "her" to kill everyone.
Japanese are different people but not SO different I hope.

And after all, servants' families got money after their death. So...
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Old 2013-12-12, 02:36   Link #33626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passer_by View Post
I do have ideas, but all of them are sunk after I try to think as a servant: "Beatrice" is a nice kid except for being crazy. Lets help "her" to kill everyone.
Japanese are different people but not SO different I hope.

And after all, servants' families got money after their death. So...
No, no, I wouldn't say that it necessarily has to connect to them simply pitying "Beatrice".
But think about it, what Beatrice's have there actually been? Not Meta-Beatrice but actual people with that name. We know that Kinzo is said to have met Beatrice during the 1940s, then there was the young Beatrice Rosa met in 1967 and died subsequently, and then there is the Beatrice that seems to kill everybody who Battler at least met during EP4 in 1986.
We also know that at least Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo have been at Kinzo's side for a long, long time, so their connection to Beatrice comes into question as well, doesn't it?

We also know that the core of all the games, the person around whom everything revolves is 19 years old, as confirmed by Zepar and Furfur in EP6. Ring a bell?
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Old 2013-12-12, 12:44   Link #33627
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Originally Posted by passer_by View Post
jjblue1, I am on the chapter 6 and still the biggest headache is the chapter 1.

It does look like Eva and Hideyoshi became lucky successors of the Ushiromiya family by chance (hahaha!). It does not explain the appearance of Shannon's “corpse”, though. If Hideyoshi lies about the corpse so do Kanon and Nanjo; which makes sense only if Eva and Hideyoshi teamed up with ALL FOUR remaining servants. I do not see a motive for servants to do it. Well… Honestly, I do not get motives of Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa in general except for the money (booooring) but Eva does not have any.
Okay, I'll give you hints through the episodes.
Ep 5. Natsuhi does what the man of 19 years ago asks... but did she know the identity of said guy?
Ep 3. In a way the adults play along with Beatrice's request by trying to solve the epitaph. Did they know who Beatrice was though?
Ep 6. We know everyone was an accomplice that ganged up against Erika. Did they do it to cover up a murder or they were believing it was something else?
Ep 5. The adults gang up against Natsuhi accusing her of George and Co's death but we know they weren't dead yet. Why?
Ep 2. The first 6 corpses were find in the chapel in front of a candy banquet while on the door there was something written. Is it possible the adults went there with the excuse to prepare a certain something?

Accomplices change from Ep to Ep and the motive switch according to who's involved.
Of course money can be one motive and in some cases it is. But if you study all the characters you'll realize the game gives you other motives as well.

And I really hope I hadn't made it too easy now...
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Old 2013-12-12, 12:47   Link #33628
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
No, no, I wouldn't say that it necessarily has to connect to them simply pitying "Beatrice".
But think about it, what Beatrice's have there actually been? Not Meta-Beatrice but actual people with that name. We know that Kinzo is said to have met Beatrice during the 1940s, then there was the young Beatrice Rosa met in 1967 and died subsequently, and then there is the Beatrice that seems to kill everybody who Battler at least met during EP4 in 1986.
We also know that at least Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo have been at Kinzo's side for a long, long time, so their connection to Beatrice comes into question as well, doesn't it?

We also know that the core of all the games, the person around whom everything revolves is 19 years old, as confirmed by Zepar and Furfur in EP6. Ring a bell?
Haguruma, I guess I see the point you are guiding me to. Beatrice’s lineage is quite obvious (Kinzo you old pervert). Servants’ role in all of this is pretty much lying non-stop. Regardless, no matter what traumatic experience it could be for all of the people involved I do not see a reason for servants to cover up/participate in the murders and to die at the end (except for the money but again it’s soooo boring).
Any of this does not answer a question of how a family member except for Natsuhi and Krauss could make any of servants lying (e.g. about Sannon’s corpse in Ep.1).
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Old 2013-12-12, 12:57   Link #33629
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Originally Posted by passer_by View Post
Haguruma, I guess I see the point you are guiding me to. Beatrice’s lineage is quite obvious (Kinzo you old pervert). Servants’ role in all of this is pretty much lying non-stop. Regardless, no matter what traumatic experience it could be for all of the people involved I do not see a reason for servants to cover up/participate in the murders and to die at the end (except for the money but again it’s soooo boring).
Any of this does not answer a question of how a family member except for Natsuhi and Krauss could make any of servants lying (e.g. about Sannon’s corpse in Ep.1).
In Ep 3 Kyrie theorized the one who calls herself Beatrice and that wrote them a letter was already in possession of the gold and that getting the gold would also mean getting the headship which would make 'Beatrice' more important than Natsuhi and Krauss.

And I already gave you hints about how people might believe they aren't covering up for a murder but for people playing dead under a heavy make up.
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Old 2013-12-12, 13:01   Link #33630
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Okay, I'll give you hints through the episodes.
...

And I really hope I hadn't made it too easy now...
Easy and Umineko ... Ha! A great oxymoron.

It was a theory of the guests not to be so unorganized as it seems at the first glance. It would solve so much if not everything. The problem is that it would require at least some servants to be in the gang and I see no motive for them or a way they could be recruited.
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Old 2013-12-12, 13:10   Link #33631
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Do you remember that scene in EP2 where all the parents are "acknowledging" beatrice? Where they all say "I acknowledge it"?
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Old 2013-12-12, 14:35   Link #33632
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Do you remember that scene in EP2 where all the parents are "acknowledging" beatrice? Where they all say "I acknowledge it"?
Supposing Shannon as Yasu really is Kinzo's secret child or something, why would Shannon keep it bottled up until 1986? One theory about Yasu is that she snapped because she really didn't know who she was anymore.

Isn't she bringing this upon herself?
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Old 2013-12-12, 15:03   Link #33633
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Supposing Shannon as Yasu really is Kinzo's secret child or something, why would Shannon keep it bottled up until 1986? One theory about Yasu is that she snapped because she really didn't know who she was anymore.

Isn't she bringing this upon herself?
Theoretically Umineko explains it as having Shannon not interested in being the head. Another possibility is that Kinzo didn't really left her the title of family head but just a lot of money in a secret bank account.
After all he was supposed to return to her what he got from Beatrice which is the gold. Apart from maybe Rosa his other children had birth before he met her and he was family head before he met her so the title didn't really belong to her.
Or since Yasu now... had a body unable to love he might have decided it wasn't a good idea to pass the title also.
Alternatively Kinzo wanted to make Yasu the head... only he died before he could declare it to the family making Yasu's position very uncertain.

The family would likely not accept Yasu as the new head and, if Yasu were to try and get herself recognized legally, this would put a lot of people in an unpleasant position. Genji basically kidnapped him/her in collaboration with Nanjo and Kumasawa and they're also responsible for helping Kinzo in keeping hidden his mother and committing incest with her, not mentioning he also hid Beatrice Castiglioni. Plus the matter of the gold might get public.

So they probably told Yasu to accept... let's call it hush money and don't try to get the title, contrary to what Ep 7 seems to suggest as we know the conversation didn't quite went like that. Yasu though wanted to wait for Battler so she remained on the island.

Another interesting theory is that Yasu actually accepted the money, left and became Ikuko and when she discovered of the family troubles she tried to help them by sending money. However she was too late and the family searched for the gold. Rokkenjima exploded for matters unrelated to Yasu, and the press ended up mixing the identity of the servant who blew up with hers (maybe they were given the same blessed name?). Kanon obviously was another person, one Yasu had known and that in her mystery tales had fun as using as her 'other identity'.
Ironically in his escape from the island Battler ends up being found by her who hides him believing Eva is the culprit and might harm Battler as he might know something, while it's unlikely she'll harm Ange as she poses no threat.
Alternatively she hides him because she's afraid declaring she found him might lead people to discover she's living out of the Ushiromiya secret bank account.

In short her forgeries are the fartest thing from what had happened on the island and she didn't expect people to take them seriously. She'd merely tossed them away when she heard of the island's explosion believing now she would have no chance to have Battler reading them and she'd been surprised to find him close to her house short later.

Ergo, everything was a sad coincidence and she's completely innocent.


On a childish sidenote everyone could care less it seems the next volume of Requiem of the Golden Witch will figure on his cover Shannon and Battler. Cheers for my fave couple who finally have a color image of them together! (Twilight should have Dlanor and Will looking badass)
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Old 2013-12-12, 16:06   Link #33634
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In Ep 3 Kyrie theorized the one who calls herself Beatrice and that wrote them a letter was already in possession of the gold and that getting the gold would also mean getting the headship which would make 'Beatrice' more important than Natsuhi and Krauss.

And I already gave you hints about how people might believe they aren't covering up for a murder but for people playing dead under a heavy make up.
Yeah, gold-derived "Beatrice" complicates situation even more in regards to the loyalty of the servants but it hardly helps to solve the first twilight of the Ep.1.
I can admit that Battler is dense as golden ingots and he did not notice that during the first twilights of Ep.1 and Ep.2 a stench of blood should have been overwhelming and its absence would have been totally suspicious. Nonetheless, in the Ep.1 at least the following people are getting to corpses close enough to see if they are fake or not: Natsuhi, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, Battler, Kanon (we can disregard him), and may be Genji but his position is unclear. How could the former four team up in the same conspiracy? Who this conspiracy would be against?
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Old 2013-12-12, 17:37   Link #33635
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Yeah, gold-derived "Beatrice" complicates situation even more in regards to the loyalty of the servants but it hardly helps to solve the first twilight of the Ep.1.
I can admit that Battler is dense as golden ingots and he did not notice that during the first twilights of Ep.1 and Ep.2 a stench of blood should have been overwhelming and its absence would have been totally suspicious. Nonetheless, in the Ep.1 at least the following people are getting to corpses close enough to see if they are fake or not: Natsuhi, Nanjo, Hideyoshi, Battler, Kanon (we can disregard him), and may be Genji but his position is unclear. How could the former four team up in the same conspiracy? Who this conspiracy would be against?
Nope, there likely was a strong stench of blood in the firt twilights of Ep 1 & 2 but if the accomplices were thinking the murders were fake ones they might have assumed the blood was... let's say animal blood used to cover dunny corpses or real people wearing make up. They can't hear the red so they don't know the guy in there are really dead and aren't even fake corpses. Both places aren't well light but what matter the most is that they might self delude themselves into believing they're dummy corpses or people playing dead.

If your classmates/workmates were to involve you in a mystery game in which some play the role of the dead ones when you see them on the ground covered in what you think is fake blood, apparently not breathing you might think 'oh what a realiztic make up and performance' at first because it'll be hard to think that while you were playing someone really went and killed them.

Of course if you were to check them well you'l probably realize they aren't faking it but at first you'll be fooled because that's what you want to believe. That they're just faking.

Also, not necessarily all the accomplices are in the same team.

Natsuhi in Ep 5 is an 'accomplice' (as she's doing what the man of 19 years ago told her) but the same can be said for the siblings, who're pretending everyone died to have her to confess and therefore aren't in her group. The cousins too are 'accomplices' as they're playing dead but they likely think it's just a prank, and not an act against Natsuhi.
The servants, which Natsuhi believes on her side as they should supposedly help her in hiding Kinzo's death, are likely instead working for Yasu, so they can be considered another team.


In addition to this each team was likely 'bribed' in a different way. Natsuhi was blackmailed and threatened, the servants were likely obeying their master and promised money, the siblings were likely persuaded in this way they could uncover Kinzo's death and therefore claim part of the inheritance while the cousins were in just because they thought to a game.
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Old 2013-12-12, 18:00   Link #33636
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In short her forgeries are the fartest thing from what had happened on the island and she didn't expect people to take them seriously.
If true, What's the point of the forgeries? In other words, if someone new discovered Umineko and then learned of this hypothesis, what would be in it for them to play a 10+ hour long game?

(And that's more like 10+ hours per forgery.)

For Battler, sure, it's to discover Yasu but for us, is it merely to kill time?
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Old 2013-12-12, 18:15   Link #33637
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It's the same thing for us at it is for Battler. They're crucial to the mystery we are being asked to solve, which is to understand the true nature of Beatrice and what motivates her to do what she does.
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Old 2013-12-12, 18:38   Link #33638
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
If true, What's the point of the forgeries? In other words, if someone new discovered Umineko and then learned of this hypothesis, what would be in it for them to play a 10+ hour long game?

(And that's more like 10+ hours per forgery.)

For Battler, sure, it's to discover Yasu but for us, is it merely to kill time?
We're not supposed to know/focus on what happened to Prime, Ryukishi did that purposely in the dark, although he said we can make some guesses.
The purposes of the games are various:
- solve the mysteries Yasu/Tohya/Beatrice/Lambda/Battler/Bern created.
- understand the motive of the culprit
- understand the message Battler is trying to pass to Ange
- think over how the press and the public played with the Rokkenjima tragedy and made Ange's life a living hell even if there were no proofs Eva or Rudolf and Co did something and how they did it just for fun
- remember that if you make a promise to a supposedly female child and then don't keep it THERE CAN BE CONSEQUENCES you might not like...
- understand that people aren't just black or white. Rosa was a bad mother but she loved Maria... her own way
- understand that the press might not present the right portray of a person
- learn to think with our head and decide in what we want to believe
- have fun!
- other stuffs I don't remember right now

At least those were some of the messages/themes/point to ponder of Umineko.

Of course who wanted the solution to Prime can feel disappointed... still I'll say Umineko has something to say even if it's not what happened to Prime.
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Old 2013-12-12, 19:22   Link #33639
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- If you don't like someone then for god's sake just tell them. Adopting a new persona to love them or swapping their child with the stillborn offspring of your preferred partner will only lead to trouble.
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Old 2013-12-12, 19:45   Link #33640
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- If you don't like someone then for god's sake just tell them. Adopting a new persona to love them or swapping their child with the stillborn offspring of your preferred partner will only lead to trouble.
Also if you like someone then tell them! In the easiest way possible. And who cares if they've found a new love. They might still be hung up on you and merely faking or pretending they love someone else to make you jealous.

Also: phone is your friend! Letters are also! use them!

Another plus would be: if you don't trust a man to not abuse of his male child, when the baby get tossed of a cliff and his sex get swapped for some... technical problems, don't hide the child in an orphanage and then hire him when he's too young for working there, coddling him more than the other servants but not enough to make his life decent.

Teaparties aren't as nice as they might sound.

If someone encourages you to jump off a cliff... maybe she's not really a nice person...

If someone who calls herself a detective tries to get into your home... kick that person off the island. Not only it'll surely cause murders and if they don't happen she'll make them happen but she'll also might accuse you of being responsable for them.
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