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Old 2013-12-14, 19:38   Link #33661
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
This has always been on my mind. The "brain damage" could have been caused by a non-fatal gunshot.



Well supposedly there is at least one Winchester full of blanks...



At least in the games that seems to be the intention, but does seemingly not always work out as intented, as seen in EP3 where Battler is shot by Eva, before the bomb explodes.
Well, but that's Eva who shoot him. Not the 'culprit', which in game 3 hid behind Eva-Beatrice but wasn't Eva. In short my red truth didn't mean that Battler couldn't be shoot but that Yasu couldn't shoot him, a truth he might have learnt in Prime (and then forgotten or remembered) or in which he might believe or that he might have figured out by solving the messages in the bottles.
Everyone else that's not Yasu though can shoot at Battler as much as they want... :P
Okay, probably they wouldn't but I guess there's not a red truth that would stop them...
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Old 2013-12-14, 22:25   Link #33662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
This has always been on my mind. The "brain damage" could have been caused by a non-fatal gunshot.
That would actually explain a little about why exactly they were split up when they escaped. Tohya said that he didn't remember why they were split up and anything that went down in the exact vicinity of that moment.
So it could technically be that it happened as shown at the end of EP3, that he "closed his ears" because he trusted "Beatrice" more than he would any of his relatives now, so he ended up misunderstanding something that lead to him believing that Eva was the culprit and since Eva didn't know any better either or felt cornered, she shot him in self-defense.
That's be kinda funny if the Book of Single Truth contained Eva confessing that she shot Battler, but never checked if he was actually dead.

It would also explain a little bit better why she wouldn't check if he survived, even if he got separated from her during their escape. Unless of course they were never told where their escape paths might be leading.
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Old 2013-12-14, 22:50   Link #33663
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That would actually explain a little about why exactly they were split up when they escaped. Tohya said that he didn't remember why they were split up and anything that went down in the exact vicinity of that moment.
So it could technically be that it happened as shown at the end of EP3, that he "closed his ears" because he trusted "Beatrice" more than he would any of his relatives now, so he ended up misunderstanding something that lead to him believing that Eva was the culprit and since Eva didn't know any better either or felt cornered, she shot him in self-defense.
That's be kinda funny if the Book of Single Truth contained Eva confessing that she shot Battler, but never checked if he was actually dead.

It would also explain a little bit better why she wouldn't check if he survived, even if he got separated from her during their escape. Unless of course they were never told where their escape paths might be leading.
Another thing to wonder is if he really was escaping with Eva. Some like to assume it was Yasu but... it could be everyone, even Rudolf and/or Kyrie and, in the end, the person with whom he was escaping couldn't continue escaping with him for... unknown reasons.
After all Battler never said it was Eva. It was just Ange who assumed it.
If Battler was escaping with Kyrie under some false belief and then Kyrie tried to shoot him because she couldn't stand the idea Rudolf was dead and Asumu's son was not but managed only to injure him and he killed her in self defence it might make sense he removed the fact from his memory.

After all we don't know if Rudolf ever managed to tell her that Battler was her son. Personally I've the feeling he didn't as the only time he gets to say so is in Ep 8, when it's basically ways too late. But let's see how the manga will deal with this. Honeslty I'm really curious about which sort of ending we'll get.
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Old 2013-12-15, 00:51   Link #33664
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I just stumbled upon a collection of scenes with Black Battler from Ougon Musou Kyoku, and, while we might have to reconsider how canon this can actually be once the manga goes on, there were some interesting things being said.
For example in a match with EVA-Beatrice they say stuff like:
B-Battler: "Then kill me, if that is what satisfies you."
EVA: "I'm sorry, but I just cannot let you leave this island."
EVA: "I am Beatrice! It is my final duty to seal you away until you die!"
EVA: "To kill you is the duty of my current self. I will not let you reach Ange!"

Of course this also applies to Eva keeping the whole Rudolph-family culprit theory from Ange by not denying her guilt and not blaming them in front of her, but wouldn't it be delicious if the reason Eva shot Battler was exactly because she started doubting him. Even if it wasn't Kyrie or Rudolph doing the killing, it doesn't take much to find out that Battler has a certain connection to the person who set the whole crazy show up, so doubting him isn't that far away.

This would be a truth so horrible that Ange couldn't bear it, because it's a truth without a Whydunnit, without a reason, and finally without a heart. Battler has no reason to kill, so even if he just appeared to be the culprit to Eva and that was the reason she shot him, that would probably be enough to send Ange over the edge.

In this sense we could say that Battler-kun, the Battler that Ange revives at the end of EP8, the one who fought against Beatrice, and the one who joins the fantasy beings in the very end, is just as much a fantasy as the purely evil Black-Battler.
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Old 2013-12-15, 01:33   Link #33665
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Obviously so; we have no idea if Battler ever had it as a motive to fight for Ange's sake at all. The Battler in her head certainly would, but that doesn't mean the "true" Battler even had his sister in the top list of his priorities.
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Old 2013-12-15, 02:36   Link #33666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Obviously so; we have no idea if Battler ever had it as a motive to fight for Ange's sake at all. The Battler in her head certainly would, but that doesn't mean the "true" Battler even had his sister in the top list of his priorities.
It would also end up being a better explanation of why Tohya refused to meet with Ange if he even had a doubt about whether he had a culpability in the crime that happened. "The Battler you want to return might have never existed in the first place", is at least a better explanation than simply, "I'm not your Battler anymore."

Sure, Ange remembers her brother being nice to her and buying her cute things, but she also only met him on certain occasions, she was only 6 years old when he vanished, we even now that Kyrie was basically pretending around Battler a large deal as well.

It doesn't make Tohya any less of a weakling, because he could have at least tried, but in the end that's what all of Umineko is about, weak humans.
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Old 2013-12-15, 03:59   Link #33667
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One could easily imagine that he has no idea which Battler he's supposed to be in the first place, given all the conflicting portrayals that could exist. It's trouble enough to sort through, but when it's you, or at least the guy you used to be, it must be especially unnerving.
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Old 2013-12-15, 11:19   Link #33668
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If Battler took a head shot bad enough to cause memory loss, though, shouldn't there be some kind of obvious scar even all these years later? Shouldn't Ange have noticed something like that at their meeting? 'It looks just like Onii-chan... with a dent in the side of his head.'
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Old 2013-12-15, 13:43   Link #33669
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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
If Battler took a head shot bad enough to cause memory loss, though, shouldn't there be some kind of obvious scar even all these years later? Shouldn't Ange have noticed something like that at their meeting? 'It looks just like Onii-chan... with a dent in the side of his head.'
I'd say it doesn't necessarily need to be a head-shot.
The stress of the events, with the physical and psychological trauma of being shot being the actual trigger, could be great enough to propel him into what is called a fugue state, similar to dissociative amnesia. People in fugue states are actually described as wandering off from their usual place of belonging, taking on another identity and completely separating themselves from the memories of their "former identity."
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Old 2013-12-15, 14:20   Link #33670
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Aside from that, can't brain damage be caused by blood loss as well? As far as I know a deficit in blood supply can be fatal for the brain.
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Old 2013-12-15, 15:24   Link #33671
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And oxygen loss. If he really did attempt to drown himself with Beatrice and cocked it up, there'd be a lot of dead brain cells.
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Old 2013-12-15, 17:42   Link #33672
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A strong bump on his head will also do.
Basically we can't know if it was supposed the car crash that erased Battler's memory or if he lost it long ago.

Honestly it'll be nice if there was more development on the real Battler. I think he was supposed to be a good boy as even the ones that create the Battler-culprit theory couldn't give him a motive. This however doesn't mean he liked Ange as much as Ange believed and Kyrie. He might have liked Kyrie prior to discovering she was having an affair with his father and he might have tried to like Ange and be a good brother but what we know about his true feelings?

Ep 7 hinted that even if in the other previous episodes he did his blessing to George and Shannon he actually was jealous of them and the manga had him talking with Shannon about how things could have had a chance to go different among them if he'd came back sooner, which seems to be not just a hint that he didn't want the tragedy to happen but also that he would have liked to have Shannon back.

So Battler, like Kyrie, might have been the type that on the outside tried to act in a certain way when certain people were involved but on the inside he felt differently. After all he's quite possessive of Beatrice, really his mother's son. Maybe even his acting childish was a facade, a way to hide his own feelings.

Even through he's popular with girls he doesn't try to get one and doesn't think at getting one until he saw Shannon with George. Was he still hung up on her deep down?
Could it be that seeing her with George had made him felt as if she cheated on him like his father did with his mother?

Really, it would have been interesting to have an in deep look at Battler's mind.

Going back to Ougon another interesting thing is when you pair black Battler with Shannon. Sort of a proof he's still hung up on her and you can also note how he calls her a cruel woman. And it's also interesting how he notes she's paired up with him and not with Battler, as if he's the real and not Battler and how he'll call her first Shannon and not Shannon-chan and then just Sayo. And when he face her as his enemy and beat her he declares she'll be his woman, while with Kanon and Beato he just says he broke their cages of flesh.

And when he faces George he says he can't forgive him for the way he looked as Shannon and that he'll take Shannon (he also encorages Shannon to stomp on George though).

It sounds like Black Battler, although claiming not to have a motive, was pretty angry with someone and wanted rather badly to have someone else, wasn't he?
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Old 2013-12-15, 22:47   Link #33673
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Battler vs George does seem like a potentially interesting clash, and it seems like a shame it was never fully explored in the series. If George learnt that the girl he's madly in love with is still in love with the cousin he hates then it seems perfectly possible he'd resort to violence.

It would make a good spark for the Rokkenjima incident, if say Battler or one of his parents ended up killing George in self-defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Obviously so; we have no idea if Battler ever had it as a motive to fight for Ange's sake at all. The Battler in her head certainly would, but that doesn't mean the "true" Battler even had his sister in the top list of his priorities.
I can't remember, does piece-Battler ever give off the impression that he really cares about Ange? I don't recall him ever really thinking about her except when directly prompted to.

Ange would probably have fond memories of him because Battler is good with kids, but it seems pretty likely that he emotionally distanced himself from her in the same way he distanced himself from Kyrie.

The hairpiece he got Ange kindof supports this too - it seems like something he carelessly picked up on the way to see her, rather than something he put effort into selecting in advance.

e: Battler had actually been struggling with anterograde amnesia for years, but he was too embarassed to tell anyone outside of a few people who all died in the incident. That's why he forgot his promise to Shannon. The stress of the weekend just made it worse.
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Old 2013-12-16, 22:29   Link #33674
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Well, in episode 3, he went on about how he (Piece!Battler) had to survive to come back to Ange.
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Old 2013-12-17, 08:56   Link #33675
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Well, in episode 3, he went on about how he (Piece!Battler) had to survive to come back to Ange.
What if Piece Battler was Ange's piece? Just like Sakutaro's Maria's piece, Piece Battler is the delusion of Ange that loved her, when in reality Battler had the same feelings towards Ange that Kyrie had towards Battler. He didn't know if Ange was REALLY his sister(since he believed Asumu was his mother). Maybe he just acted the part of a big brother on the outside.

On another interesting note, what if Ange realizes this when reading the Book of Single Truth? Maybe what devastates her isn't so much the murders, but the reality that Battler didn't really think about her during 1986. We get a "playful" scene towards the end where Ange says she still "doesn't" approve of her relationship with Battler.

Seeing a love that didn't exist, might be another hint for the Ange=Erika theory.
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Old 2013-12-17, 14:53   Link #33676
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
What if Piece Battler was Ange's piece? Just like Sakutaro's Maria's piece, Piece Battler is the delusion of Ange that loved her, when in reality Battler had the same feelings towards Ange that Kyrie had towards Battler. He didn't know if Ange was REALLY his sister(since he believed Asumu was his mother). Maybe he just acted the part of a big brother on the outside.

On another interesting note, what if Ange realizes this when reading the Book of Single Truth? Maybe what devastates her isn't so much the murders, but the reality that Battler didn't really think about her during 1986. We get a "playful" scene towards the end where Ange says she still "doesn't" approve of her relationship with Battler.

Seeing a love that didn't exist, might be another hint for the Ange=Erika theory.
Uhm... I'll say PieceBattler is more like the piece of whoever spin/play the games and Ange is never a gamemaster and only once she's a player but we see that her piece, youngAnge, is mostly controlled by the gamemaster, though not completely (pieceAnge can stop in the rose garden and she can also wander in Bern's game).
If you're referring to MetaBattler it's unlikely he's her piece as he's often doing what she doesn't want him to do, so either he's not her piece or she fail completely at controlling him.

However Ange is likely going to become a gamemaster herself as she can create her own words that move according to her own rules so in a way Battler can become her piece... but I'll say that's something that can happen from her Battler with Bern in EP 8 not previously...

Prior to it she's more like a watcher/reader. She probably gives her own interpretation to facts so she can make sound Battler more concerned for her than what he is but not much more.

Well, it'll be interesting if the truth she discovered was this one. Battler decided to escape with Yasu and abandoned his sister in Eva's care as he doesn't want to go back to Kyrie's child. However he disappeared and Eva believed he died.
It can work. He doesn't even have to be the killer, all it's needed is that simply he gave up on returning to Ange.
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Old 2013-12-18, 10:48   Link #33677
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Chapter 21 from the ep8 manga is out, seems to be a repeat of what actually happened in the vn with the starvation puzzle. It does have more scenes though, cant make any sense of it.
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Old 2013-12-19, 01:59   Link #33678
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Nanjo has plenty of things for which he can be blackmailed
I just had a crazy idea which explains why Nanjo was on the island for so long and what kind of connection he might have with Beatrice. This idea requires Nanjo's medical skills and explains what kind of Beatrice's awakening Kinzo was waiting for.
It also explains the gender duality of Shannon/Kanon. Wow ... its really bad.
Am I on the right track?
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Old 2013-12-19, 16:07   Link #33679
jjblue1
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Chapter 21 from the ep8 manga is out, seems to be a repeat of what actually happened in the vn with the starvation puzzle. It does have more scenes though, cant make any sense of it.
*nods* I love how they put a parallel between Ange waiting and Yasu waiting.
The scary thing is it really seems to imply Ange jumped off that building though maybe it's just symbolic. Ange's drama is simply better played and her emotions are easier to grasp than in the VN.

The rest played mostly as in the VN, apart the fact that Battler and Erika didn't duel over silly closed rooms that looks as such only because they aren't described properly but over the mysteries of Umineko's Ep 5. Battler hands out another red truth about it but Erika counters with an effective blue, which should have been very good as it's implied it can be a checkmate.

And again I catch this chance to remark how I love how Ep 8 manga version hands out the solutions one by one.
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Old 2013-12-25, 11:04   Link #33680
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Please allow me to speak:

Is there anywhere where I can read the up-to-date chapters of Ep 8? I wanna see Battler/Erika's battle for myself and to clarify Erika's Truth.
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