AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-12-29, 19:47   Link #33761
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Krauss probably wouldn't convert all the money and skip the country with it. Jessica and Natsuhi would be unlikely to be on board with that, at least.
And it's the word probably that turns a normal conversation into a powder keg.
We saw how they jumped at each others' throats when it was only about hypothetical money...imagine how tense they get when the money is literally in front of them.

Yes, you can pull a double-trick by threatening Krauss with revealing his actions to the authorities, but then he can pull another bunny out of the hat and say that by doing that the money would be automatically lost to them as well...since it's legally not even THEIR gold.
Again, a dead-lock...

Now imagine how their minds must have run in circles, with having actually a lot more at stake then us, who are just debating purely theoretically.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-29, 20:14   Link #33762
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yes, you can pull a double-trick by threatening Krauss with revealing his actions to the authorities, but then he can pull another bunny out of the hat and say that by doing that the money would be automatically lost to them as well...since it's legally not even THEIR gold.
Again, a dead-lock...
While broadly I agree with what you're saying and the difference between debating things here and in a tense situation, I don't think that is a deadlock. If Krauss doesn't give them enough money for it to be worth their while, and they threaten to dob him in, Krauss can't threaten them further because the deal he would have given them would already not be worth their while. Krauss' threat there would only take effect in a situation where he had already given them the minimum amount they would accept without turning him in to the authorities.
GoldenLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-29, 20:14   Link #33763
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Krauss was dead by the time Kyrie made her move anyway. She couldn't accept his offer even if she wanted to.

Incidentally, has anyone considered the implications of Lion's death in the E7TP? Even with no Beatrice, no Battler and no epitaph Kyrie still kills people in 1986. I'm not really sure what to make of that - does Kyrie have a lot more knowledge than we think she does, allowing her to know about the bomb even without Yasu? Does she just bug out over Battler's parentage regardless? Is she trying to seize the Ushiromiya headship for Rudolf/Battler since she doesn't know about the gold?
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-29, 20:19   Link #33764
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
There are two problems I see in this situation:
(A) The conversion of the gold into money would have to be left to Krauss, who they don't trust. And can you blame them? This man and his wife hid their father's death for 2 years and embezzled the whole company's fortune. Would you trust that man not to run off with the money the second he left your sight?
The others aren't any more trustworthy, they all played with hidden cards, keeping their individual problems private in order to avoid showing weakness.
Eva is furious so I can give her some slack but still killing Krauss or handling him all the money for Kyrie should equal to the same. She doesn't believe without Krauss they can convert it ergo they can either bet on Krauss or on the witch (Beato converted some of the gold so she has the meanings to do so) or give up on any extra. Betting on Krauss is less risky that allowing an overly upset Eva to wave around a gun she's not really good at using risking someone to get shot.

That was the moment in which she should have said: calm down everyone and let's think at this rationally. And then she should have pulled off the fact that Krauss hid Kinzo's death and if they don't get their share of the gold as hush money they'll inform the police (something that got mentioned not so much ago) and Jessica about it and by the way if they really want to play the criminal side they can take Natsuhi and Jessica as obstages and blackmail him further.

So it's not really a problem of trust, more a problem of getting nothing versus the chance they might get something. And even if they keep the cash and share it in 3 they'll probably have enough to cover their debt. 300 milions were more than enough to cover Eva's debt or so Eva says.

So it's also the rush that doesn't get really justified. The gold isn't getting anywhere and they've all the time in the world to force Krauss to hand it.

If worse came to worse they can even threaten him by saying he found the illegal gold so that he too wouldn't get it.

Kyrie is described as someone calm and that can reason but really, it doesn't seem like she's doing it much. And Hideyoshi had always calmed her wife previously and now that she's holding a gun he's quiet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
(B) The plan to convert the gold vanished the second Natsuhi was shot in the struggle with Eva. Krauss looses his temper and even if he hadn't been shot in the struggle with Hideyoshi, who was protecting Eva, he wouldn't have cooperated that easily anymore. And as soon as he was dead, the chance to convert the gold was gone.
And the scuffle is a really weak point in the plot as it's explained horribly.

We have:

Eva who gets a gun and starts a scuffle with Krauss, who claims Eva is scaring them but evidently his fear isn't stopping him from having a scuffle with her... and probably he's right in not being scared as she's not shooting at him.

We assume that now logically people will pay them attention, that Krauss is probably trying to rip the gun away from Eva and that Hideyoshi is either defending his wife from Krauss or telling Eva to put down the gun as it's dangerous but no, we've no info on what Hideyoshi or Rosa are doing, we're only told that after Eva got the gun and Krauss started a scuffle with her Natsuhi is arguing with Rudolf and Kyrie.

Then all of sudden Natsuhi jumps on Eva and Eva ends up shooting her

So hum... Natsuhi dropped the discussion she was having with Rudolf and Kyrie, pushed away Krauss and jumped on Eva? No idea but let's assume so.

Eva drops her gun claiming she was an accident but Krauss, while holding his own, run toward her aiming to tear her to pieces. Hideyoshi gets in between and Krauss is shoot.

So... all of sudden Krauss is holding a gun? When did he get it? Why if he get it after Natsuhi was shot didn't he use it to shoot Eva? How far he got he so suddently that he has room to run toward her? And why now Hideyoshi gets in between? Why not before? His wife was holding a gun while being furious and could have shot someone and even if she hadn't wasn't she having a scuffle with Krauss, a man?

And yay, now everyone suddently has guns because apparently Rosa as one too. She argues without fear with Eva who evidently recovered her gun which she had dropped but neither shoot until Kyrie shoot Rosa because evidently Kyrie got a gun as well.

When had Rosa gotten her gun? Why had she gotten it? She's not afraid of Eva, for once she sounds way overconfident. She's not using the gun to threaten Eva as there would be no point as Eva has her own gun which Rosa courteously allowed her to retrieve as Eva had dropped it few minutes ago. If Rosa wanted to shoot Eva she could have done it without trying to talk her into confessing everything to the police, she could have done it when Eva tried to pick up the gun claiming she wanted to use it to kill them. I'll say Rosa didn't want to kill anyone, nor was afraid of being killed since she let Eva get the gun.

Kyrie starts talking explaining to Eva how stupid Rosa's plan was and why she had to kill her. Oh but wait, Eva had dropped her gun somewhere in all this again because at her feet there are her gun and Krauss'. Kyrie courteously informs them she had to kill Rosa FIRST because for her it would be easier to shoot while Hideyoshi and Eva would be slowed by the fact it's not so easy to recharge the guns then let them try to pick up the guns before shooting at Hideyoshi's chest. Eva has all the time to try to recharge but fail so Kyrie reminds her it's not so easy, recharges and shoot at Eva's head, vaguely grazing it because evidently her aim suck even if it's unlikely she's that far from Eva and the best place to shoot at her would have been her chest like she did with Hideyoshi.

And why in the world Kyrie wasted so much time explaining things? If she's so good at recharging after shoot ing at Rosa couldn't she have shoot at Eva and Hideyoshi, possibly without giving them the chance to try and shoot at her? Or maybe if she really wanted to shoot at them wasn't it better to try and persuade them to move away from the guns so that she wouldn't risk being shoot? She basically even informed them it was difficult to recharge so they had to be careful! And how could she know Eva and Hideyoshi had no enough ability to recharge those guns? Hideyoshi lived through the war and was a man, he could be familiar with guns. The guns are Kinzo's so Eva might have seen him using them even if maybe she had never been allowed to try them. She should have just shoot them immediately instead of chatting as that's what she planned to do.

That's what I mean with the scuffle being poorly handled. Natsuhi should have jumped on Eva immediately, before Eva started having a scuffle with Krauss and Eva should have shot Krauss short after before Krauss managed to get a gun he didn't plan to use and that I don't even know how he got as it should be Eva the one near the guns as she was the first to grab one and Krauss is far from her if he has to run to her (why anyway? Wasn't they having a scuffle?).
Rudolf should have grabbed the other gun.
Kyrie should have shoot Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva immediately or even better Rosa could have shoot Eva when she picked up the gun (and only grazed her and cause her to faint) and then Kyrie could have finished off Rosa and Hideyoshi.
It would have made more sense if it was Rosa who made a mistake in shooting and did it in self defence.

So I really need some manga visual aid because the way the novel paint it... well it doesn't come out very well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Krauss was dead by the time Kyrie made her move anyway. She couldn't accept his offer even if she wanted to.

Incidentally, has anyone considered the implications of Lion's death in the E7TP? Even with no Beatrice, no Battler and no epitaph Kyrie still kills people in 1986. I'm not really sure what to make of that - does Kyrie have a lot more knowledge than we think she does, allowing her to know about the bomb even without Yasu? Does she just bug out over Battler's parentage regardless? Is she trying to seize the Ushiromiya headship for Rudolf/Battler since she doesn't know about the gold?
Maybe deep down Sayo was hoping they'll accept her in the family and she'll sort of become Lion?
I've been wondering if Lion watching the Teaparty with Ange just symbolize Yasu watching it all play out in front of her without having a chance to do anything.
Yet Kyrie shoot Sayo, definitely cutting off any chance she had of becoming some sort of Lion.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-12-29 at 20:40.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-29, 22:11   Link #33765
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's actually perfectly valid; it's literally one of the biggest tropes in post-modern fiction.
I'm not saying it isn't a valid trope, and it's certainly an interesting idea, but at least as far as Umineko is concerned ... I've gotten the impression that Ryukishi had a solid idea of who these people were, and portrayed them faithfully. I just don't find much evidence for one to seriously consider otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I'm sure some people would cry foul. But why would Kyrie care? Nobody can prove anything, and she can tell a fairly plausible story in which she is the victim. Heck, no-one would even be able eto come up with a plausible scenario in which Kyrie is guilty - did she take tonnes of explosives with her on the boat or what?
Yeah, she can make up whatever story she wants, but as far as actually enjoying the rest of her life and absurd amounts of money, having other survivors just seems to make things easier, without requiring further work. George / Jessica / Maria wouldn't have any choice but to believe whatever Kyrie or Rudolf decided to tell them. It just seems like killing the kids/servants makes things harder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Incidentally, has anyone considered the implications of Lion's death in the E7TP? Even with no Beatrice, no Battler and no epitaph Kyrie still kills people in 1986. I'm not really sure what to make of that - does Kyrie have a lot more knowledge than we think she does, allowing her to know about the bomb even without Yasu? Does she just bug out over Battler's parentage regardless? Is she trying to seize the Ushiromiya headship for Rudolf/Battler since she doesn't know about the gold?
This is one of the reasons everyone assumed/s that Bern was basically being mean for the sake of being mean (which, I mean, she kind of was, nonetheless). In Lion's world, Krauss is only hiding embezzlement, Natsuhi probably doesn't even know about the embezzlement because Kinzo isn't dead, and the bank card that Kyrolf tries to get wouldn't even exist. One must assume Kinzo takes Beatrice's place in the gold room, to explain the bomb mechanism, but would he completely bow out of the discussion in the same way that Beatrice did? With winchesters in the room?

I like to think that probably Bern was just being a dick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
And yay, now everyone suddently has guns because apparently Rosa as one too. She argues without fear with Eva who evidently recovered her gun which she had dropped but neither shoot until Kyrie shoot Rosa because evidently Kyrie got a gun as well.
I agree with many of your points (Natsuhi jumps from arguing with Kyrolf, to physically grabbing Eva?), but to be fair the narration said that the 4 guns had already been picked up. Based on what we see, it seems each of the siblings had picked up one.

I'd personally be much more interested in the part of the discussion where the first person decided to pick up a gun, because THAT'S when things get really off track for them.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-29, 22:53   Link #33766
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
This is one of the reasons everyone assumed/s that Bern was basically being mean for the sake of being mean (which, I mean, she kind of was, nonetheless). In Lion's world, Krauss is only hiding embezzlement, Natsuhi probably doesn't even know about the embezzlement because Kinzo isn't dead, and the bank card that Kyrolf tries to get wouldn't even exist. One must assume Kinzo takes Beatrice's place in the gold room, to explain the bomb mechanism, but would he completely bow out of the discussion in the same way that Beatrice did? With winchesters in the room?

I like to think that probably Bern was just being a dick.
Well, I see Bern in that moment as the representation of life/fate/whatever so... not as something so nice considering how things went. And theoretically Bern is the representation of a rather low chance of something happening so it makes sense.

But we don't know if Krauss was doing something... Kinzo was alive and probably in full control of his finances and it's possible if the siblings had asked him help the past year they weren't even that much in troubles...

I prefer to think Lion being there as symbolic of Sayo being forced to watch what had happened back then. To see what she had caused after having maybe hoped that since the outcome wasn't so bad she could meet a happy ending too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I agree with many of your points (Natsuhi jumps from arguing with Kyrolf, to physically grabbing Eva?), but to be fair the narration said that the 4 guns had already been picked up. Based on what we see, it seems each of the siblings had picked up one.

I'd personally be much more interested in the part of the discussion where the first person decided to pick up a gun, because THAT'S when things get really off track for them.
Yes but the narration also say Krauss was having a scuffle with Eva while... he was also holding a gun? What were they doing, waving them against each others as if they were swords? Honestly I was hoping that part only wanted to imply they would get the gun, not that they already have them because again, if they all grabbed them, they all should have pointed them against Krauss and corner him. One gun against 3 doesn't really stand much chances... and why if Rosa is holding a gun no one is paying her attention and she's doing nothing?

And shouldn't Rudolf worry about his wife who's facing Rudolf and Kyrie while Kyrie have a gun and she doesn't? And why would Natsuhi focus on Eva when she's under gun threath by Kyrie?

No, really, it makes even less sense if they already has the guns (and the manga didn't seem to show them as having them when Krauss is shoot so I hope it'll fix this...)
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-29, 23:33   Link #33767
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Though what we see in the book is certainly up to interpretation, in that Eva is allowed to present her opinions on things as red truth, Ryu has been pretty consistent on the basics for a long time.

Gold alone is not sufficient motivation for murder, but certainly can create huge conflict. Things got tense in the gold room, the siblings had some big argument, things got out of hand. (Guns were fired, people died, communications broke down).

It is interesting that he confirmed the death of the cousins, when it would have been so much easier had there just been a big scuffle with some deaths in the gold room, and then most everyone else dying when the bomb went off. Killing Jessica and George is an odd move for any culprit and for each other (I don't really buy into it) but they definitely seemed to have died somehow. Yet it is too early for Yasu to even have gone all suicide pact on them (unless she snapped after what happened and went around trying to arrange a perfect magic ending by bringing about the golden land, but then couldn't bring herself to kill Battler). I can't believe that Ryu would have set it up to occur without motivation, when motivation was his whole schtick, so we should really ask why it occurred. We know that Jessica at least can attack people when angry, but shooting an angry teenage girl seems a little much.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Kyrie had the blanks gun? Unless Yasu never loaded one this time (though she seems to have usually loaded the main sibling accomplice's gun with them for her own safety), it would be interesting if she was completely incapable of killing DESPITE pulling the trigger. Maybe she tried to shoot Yasu, and then Yasu went around mopping up the survivors to create a catbox, creating more confusion, making the surviving adults suspect each-other and all the rest. Kyrie was goading Eva because she had a non-functional gun and WAS guilty (she is likely to have killed the servants in the guest house for being co-conspirators) and that is where we ended up.


Also, for all of the Yasu sympathisers out there, no completely innocent murder mystery game involves the use of at least 3 loaded rifles...
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-29, 23:43   Link #33768
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
If Battler's return was enough to make her plan a murder mystery epitaph game that included REAL WINCHESTER RIFLES, it is possible she was able to kill Jessica and George when things went pair shaped.

Remembering that the incident wouldn't have occurred in the same manner had Battler not returned, Rudolph family culprit can't have occurred exactly as how the public thought, with premeditated crazy killing spree, since they surely would have done that whether Battler was there or not. If you argue that Battler returning simply made Yasu plan a murder mystery night that involved revealing the bomb and things got out of hand, I guess just LolWinchesters?
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 01:14   Link #33769
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also, for all of the Yasu sympathisers out there, no completely innocent murder mystery game involves the use of at least 3 loaded rifles...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
If Battler's return was enough to make her plan a murder mystery epitaph game that included REAL WINCHESTER RIFLES, it is possible she was able to kill Jessica and George when things went pair shaped.

...

If you argue that Battler returning simply made Yasu plan a murder mystery night that involved revealing the bomb and things got out of hand, I guess just LolWinchesters?
If those images are reliable and yep, Yasu got a bunch of loaded rifles ready for the murder game and nobody would have died had Battler not returned just because Yasu wouldn't have got them ready if he hadn't come back, then yes, it does look rather bad for her. Maybe Ryukishi kept quiet about Rokkenjima Prime on the grounds that the reality was suckily written and would detract substantially from the Beatrice's heart mystery that he really wanted to tell?

That said, even if we trust that content from Eva and it's the real truth, there's still a lot we could be told later in the manga which could make the story look better.
GoldenLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 02:24   Link #33770
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But we don't know if Krauss was doing something... Kinzo was alive and probably in full control of his finances and it's possible if the siblings had asked him help the past year they weren't even that much in troubles...
It's possible, yeah, since the version of Kinzo that Lion knows went considerably less bonkers, since his magic baby survived. I just generally make the assumption, since Krauss was embezzling while Kinzo was alive in all the other games as well, and Kinzo is pretty much at the end of his lifespan either way, so it's understandable if he had retired from really doing much actual business-y stuff, personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I prefer to think Lion being there as symbolic of Sayo being forced to watch what had happened back then. To see what she had caused after having maybe hoped that since the outcome wasn't so bad she could meet a happy ending too.
Could you elaborate on this a bit?



Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes but the narration also say Krauss was having a scuffle with Eva while... he was also holding a gun? What were they doing, waving them against each others as if they were swords? Honestly I was hoping that part only wanted to imply they would get the gun, not that they already have them because again, if they all grabbed them, they all should have pointed them against Krauss and corner him. One gun against 3 doesn't really stand much chances... and why if Rosa is holding a gun no one is paying her attention and she's doing nothing?
1. Despite having grabbed them, nobody seemed serious about firing the first shot, as far as we know. It's possible to have a scuffle while holding something, and the guns themselves are not particularly large or unwieldy or anything.

2. As I said, yeah three guns put the younger siblings at a huge advantage, but their argument clearly shows that they weren't willing to try to use physical force. Or at least hadn't thought to do so.

3. Eh, what's Rosa really gonna do. Evayoshi and Kyrolf are her allies, and she herself is really opposed to the risks of murder (at least if EP3 is anything to go by). Even if Kratsuhi was worried about the guns, the two of them are outnumbered, and, frankly, Rosa's siblings barely give a crap about her since she's usually the "weakest" in their discussions. Afterwards, after the initial shock of Kratsuhi dying, she (my opinion, here) seemed to know full well that it was an accident, probably didn't feel threatened, and tried to convince Eva of her own plan (which was probably the easiest left, at that point)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
And shouldn't Rudolf worry about his wife who's facing Rudolf and Kyrie while Kyrie have a gun and she doesn't? And why would Natsuhi focus on Eva when she's under gun threath by Kyrie?
I'm assuming Natsuhi tried to intervene when she saw Krauss was in an actual, physical scuffle with Eva. I believe that was the intention, OR (considering the way the scene is written in general), we had skipped forward to a time when Natsuhi had moved back to arguing with Eva, and she started a second scuffle, herself. That's what I get from it, anyhow. I agree that the whole shebang could've been better written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
No, really, it makes even less sense if they already has the guns (and the manga didn't seem to show them as having them when Krauss is shoot so I hope it'll fix this...)
The images in the manga are so small and obscure, it's hard to tell. Maybe they have the rifle at their sides in one hand, which is how I assume they hold it when their sprite doesn't explicitly show them "holding rifle in both hands" or "pointing rifle at eye level".

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Maybe Ryukishi kept quiet about Rokkenjima Prime on the grounds that the reality was suckily written and would detract substantially from the Beatrice's heart mystery that he really wanted to tell?
This is probably true. Featherine was all "The truth is uninteresting.", and she's pretty much Ryukishi's self-insert. Umineko as a whole is obviously much more concerned with YaShKanon's tale, so...
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 07:09   Link #33771
ALPHA-Beatrice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haguruma
Due to your sin a great number of the people on this island dies, nobody can evade it.
All will die.


This Red Truth doesn't deny my theory,
I was afraid of the way I worded the original post and this truth is why.

Allow me to rephrase it.

Ushiromiya Battler's sin is one of,
but not THE main causes of what
happened on Rokkenjima.


If Rudolf doesn't commit his sin against Asumu and Kyrie, Battler's Sin doesn't exist. Saying Battler's Sin is responsible for Rokkenjima is like eliminating half of the equation IMO.

It's not: Battler Leaves> Shannon's heart breaks> Battler Returns.

It's: Rudolf cheats on Asumu> Battler Leaves> Shannon's heart breaks> Battler Returns.

If Rudolf doesn't cheat, Battler doesn't leave. If Battler doesn't leave, Shannon's heart never breaks.
ALPHA-Beatrice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 10:42   Link #33772
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Though what we see in the book is certainly up to interpretation, in that Eva is allowed to present her opinions on things as red truth, Ryu has been pretty consistent on the basics for a long time.

Gold alone is not sufficient motivation for murder, but certainly can create huge conflict. Things got tense in the gold room, the siblings had some big argument, things got out of hand. (Guns were fired, people died, communications broke down).
Well, I could buy they shoot each other in the gold room. Possibly in a better way than what presented as, as I said, the one presented is a bit shaky on the action level but hey, it can be that it actually went better but Eva had confused memories of what happened so she wrote it down messily. Only the narration at this point would have worked better if we had Eva has narrator saying sentences like:

'I was arguing with Krauss, can't remember what the others were doing, can't remember anything well, I think I've heard Natsuhi arguing with Kyrie and Rudolf but it could be just me because then Natsuhi was jumping in front of me and... and... and there was a hole where her eye was and then Krauss was jumping on me and my husband tried to stop him and there was a shoot and Krauss... Krauss must have been holding a gun and my husband said the shoot was fired by mistake... and Rosa and Rudolf refused to admit we did it in self defence and I tried, I tried hard to think at a solution, to cover everything up, ah it had to be only a bad dream, but Rosa insisted I had to go to the police, she insisted the greedy thing she is , she even pointed a gun at me and then... then Kyrie shoot her, she said she did it because Rosa too was holding a gun and could have fired it, and it's horrible but I felt relief at Kyrie shutting her up, I thiught she deserved it for having been so mean to me and that's insane, maybe we were all insane back then, but...

and so on.

Ange can built from here a scene that's confusing and not accurate but that more or less follow Eva's description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
It is interesting that he confirmed the death of the cousins, when it would have been so much easier had there just been a big scuffle with some deaths in the gold room, and then most everyone else dying when the bomb went off.
Well, it wouldn't have still made much sense why Eva didn't try to save the cousins if they were alive, expecially George. George had to be dead... although we don't see Kyrie or Rudolf killing them, actually we don't even see who shoot Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa. And interesting enough when Krauss fell it didn't seem like Kyrie had a gun. But probably either in the diary there's room enough to think Rudolf and Kyrie had done it or it's just that the manga author forgot to draw the guns. If the diary were to say there's a remote change Rudolf and Kyrie didn't do it Ange would have jumped at it so, even if they're not shown doing the killing, at least for what regards the gold room, they must have done it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Killing Jessica and George is an odd move for any culprit and for each other (I don't really buy into it) but they definitely seemed to have died somehow. Yet it is too early for Yasu to even have gone all suicide pact on them (unless she snapped after what happened and went around trying to arrange a perfect magic ending by bringing about the golden land, but then couldn't bring herself to kill Battler).
Well, it'll be hard for Yasu to go and kill him unless Kyrie were to let her escape after she had seen Kyrie kill the others in the golden room.

The most logical thing is that either Kyrie tried to kill her and failed or that she let her alive in the hope she could convert the gold and in this case she would keep a close watch on her.
So unless we're missing something (like George going to search for her, out of pure luck not crossing Kyrie's path, meeting Yasu who survived to being shooted and being shoot by her) I've hard time picturing Yasu as going around murdering George and Jessica.

Though as the story implied a love duel between them more than once they could have killed each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I can't believe that Ryu would have set it up to occur without motivation, when motivation was his whole schtick, so we should really ask why it occurred. We know that Jessica at least can attack people when angry, but shooting an angry teenage girl seems a little much.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Kyrie had the blanks gun? Unless Yasu never loaded one this time (though she seems to have usually loaded the main sibling accomplice's gun with them for her own safety), it would be interesting if she was completely incapable of killing DESPITE pulling the trigger. Maybe she tried to shoot Yasu, and then Yasu went around mopping up the survivors to create a catbox, creating more confusion, making the surviving adults suspect each-other and all the rest. Kyrie was goading Eva because she had a non-functional gun and WAS guilty (she is likely to have killed the servants in the guest house for being co-conspirators) and that is where we ended up.


Also, for all of the Yasu sympathisers out there, no completely innocent murder mystery game involves the use of at least 3 loaded rifles...
Well, Yasu says she wanted to do the killing.
My general point isn't that she didn't have the intention, more that she didn't have the will, the gut, the ability to do it.
One thing is to write fictions in which you go around and kill everyone. Another is to look at someone in the eyes and shoot him in the face.
Everyone can write fiction but as for the shooting... even if you hate that person is not so easy to pull the trigger. Eva, who hated Krauss and was furious with him, didn't shoot at him even if she was holding a gun. And when he and Natsuhi died she was very much in shock. And likely killing Rudolf and Kyrie out of self defence still haunted her. And Sayo should have killed multiple times in various ways. Unless she was completly broken I've hard time thinking she would manage to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
If Battler's return was enough to make her plan a murder mystery epitaph game that included REAL WINCHESTER RIFLES, it is possible she was able to kill Jessica and George when things went pair shaped.

Remembering that the incident wouldn't have occurred in the same manner had Battler not returned, Rudolph family culprit can't have occurred exactly as how the public thought, with premeditated crazy killing spree, since they surely would have done that whether Battler was there or not. If you argue that Battler returning simply made Yasu plan a murder mystery night that involved revealing the bomb and things got out of hand, I guess just LolWinchesters?
I think that the idea that Battler not returning would have changed things is all in Yasu's head and didn't match reality. When she voices it she thought she was in control of the options but in truth the adults could have very well found the gold and the rifles and killed each other even without her challenging to find the gold and showing them the riffles.

I think that's the point of the Teaparty. As long as the epitaph exist and is known the adults can always use it to find the gold. As long as there are rifles they can be used to kill. That's what Lion watching that scene while chained to a chair symbolizes for me. Yasu wasn't in control, far from her. Things would have gone that way even if Yasu hadn't existed and Battler hadn't returned, and that's why we can see Bern showing us Lion would end up being shoot.

I guess it's Bern's way to give Yasu a reality check. She wasn't in control so she could drop her stance as master of Rokkenjima and realize she was just a silly girl that hoped adults would accept her as such (accept Lion as the head).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
If those images are reliable and yep, Yasu got a bunch of loaded rifles ready for the murder game and nobody would have died had Battler not returned just because Yasu wouldn't have got them ready if he hadn't come back, then yes, it does look rather bad for her. Maybe Ryukishi kept quiet about Rokkenjima Prime on the grounds that the reality was suckily written and would detract substantially from the Beatrice's heart mystery that he really wanted to tell?

That said, even if we trust that content from Eva and it's the real truth, there's still a lot we could be told later in the manga which could make the story look better.
Well, honestly I'm really hoping so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It's possible, yeah, since the version of Kinzo that Lion knows went considerably less bonkers, since his magic baby survived. I just generally make the assumption, since Krauss was embezzling while Kinzo was alive in all the other games as well, and Kinzo is pretty much at the end of his lifespan either way, so it's understandable if he had retired from really doing much actual business-y stuff, personally.
Even if Kinzo has retired the siblings always insisted in dealing with Kinzo so he would have at least had the power to help them. Ergo they wouldn't be in such financial problems they could face disaster...
Unless he acted like a jerk with them as Kinzo-gentle granpa is somehow a thing I doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Could you elaborate on this a bit?
It's a theory I'm working at.
I though having Ange and Lion as viewers at the Teaparty is a symbolism that represent the way in which 2 real people learnt the truth in a helpless way.

In Ange's case she read the truth from the diary, which means she couldn't do a thing to change what happened and then the truth was so painful for her she denied it in her mind so hard she 'self-destroyed' and reverted to her child self where she asked Battler for help. But the Battler that's in her mind can only try to counterbalance the weight of the traumatic info she had received by attempting to make her remember of the nice sides of her family, countering Eva's truth with a fantasy in which everything is perfect, a fantasy that's Ange's creation but that Ange denies because she knows that's not the truth. If she denies the fantasy though she has to embrace the truth and this brings her back to Eva's diary which she had previousliy denied and temporally removed by her mind.
If she goes back to the memory of what she had read, she'll have the truth but she's still unable to face the truth so she ends up breaking down again.
She can't accept the truth, she can't accept the fantasy, where does that leave her? On top of a building trying to scream at the world her pain and to end it by throwing herself off of it.

In Lion's case she represents Yasu as she viewed the events of that day. Once the family solves the epitaph Yasu discharges her role as Beatrice and I think she had previously killed Shannon and Kanon inside herself as well, which is what's supposed to mean the fact that Beatrice is acting like a corpse.

However Yasu isn't death and maybe she arboured the hope that now they would accept her true self, Lion, who's technically Kinzo's baby and heir, as part of the family.

But then it became pretty clear they weren't going to accept her as a family member, maybe they not even recognized her as Shannon or Kanon or as the baby from 19 years ago, she didn't exist to them and she's powerless to stop the drama as it unfolds in front of her. She's not Beatrice, the master of Rokkenjima, she's a powerless creature with a dream of being accepted and they kill that dream that night. Lion, as her being accepted into the family, will never came to be. He too got killed that night when the adults refused to recognize her as a family member, worried about the gold only and then started to kill each other... which is more or less what happened in Bern's vision of Lion's world.
The adults argued over the ineritance, all united in refusing to accept Lion and Lion got killed.

That's my theory at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
1. Despite having grabbed them, nobody seemed serious about firing the first shot, as far as we know. It's possible to have a scuffle while holding something, and the guns themselves are not particularly large or unwieldy or anything.
Yes but it sort of become ridicule that Krauss and Eva were having a scuffle while each of them is holding a gun/rifle and makes you wonder why they took them in the first place as well as it makes the scuffle uncomfortable as both of them have at least one hand busy... and what do they do with the other which should be the right one by the way? They let it limp, holding the gun or use the guns as if they were swords or something?

They can technically have done it but... it's ridicule and too complicate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
2. As I said, yeah three guns put the younger siblings at a huge advantage, but their argument clearly shows that they weren't willing to try to use physical force. Or at least hadn't thought to do so.
I don't know, somehow the situation is presented in such a weird manner I can't quite follow the action that's supposed to get going on. I'll accept it if the narrative made clear the narrator is confuse and don't really know well what's happening but that's not what the narrative does so... I'm confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
3. Eh, what's Rosa really gonna do. Evayoshi and Kyrolf are her allies, and she herself is really opposed to the risks of murder (at least if EP3 is anything to go by). Even if Kratsuhi was worried about the guns, the two of them are outnumbered, and, frankly, Rosa's siblings barely give a crap about her since she's usually the "weakest" in their discussions. Afterwards, after the initial shock of Kratsuhi dying, she (my opinion, here) seemed to know full well that it was an accident, probably didn't feel threatened, and tried to convince Eva of her own plan (which was probably the easiest left, at that point)
Honestly Rosa didn't really need a gun. She wasn't going to use it to shoot or to threaten anyway. She could have said whose words out of spite because Eva had always been abusive toward her and during the teaparty she's very much a jerk toward her so I get Rosa was more angry at her than Krauss and maybe she'll be happy she ends in a jail.
Also Kyrie was going to kill everyone anyway so... why give Rosa a gun? Decoration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I'm assuming Natsuhi tried to intervene when she saw Krauss was in an actual, physical scuffle with Eva. I believe that was the intention, OR (considering the way the scene is written in general), we had skipped forward to a time when Natsuhi had moved back to arguing with Eva, and she started a second scuffle, herself. That's what I get from it, anyhow. I agree that the whole shebang could've been better written.
It could be that was the intention but the description is so poor the scene comes out as weak.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
The images in the manga are so small and obscure, it's hard to tell. Maybe they have the rifle at their sides in one hand, which is how I assume they hold it when their sprite doesn't explicitly show them "holding rifle in both hands" or "pointing rifle at eye level".
It can be, I'm waiting for better scans or for the Teaparty in Ep 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
This is probably true. Featherine was all "The truth is uninteresting.", and she's pretty much Ryukishi's self-insert. Umineko as a whole is obviously much more concerned with YaShKanon's tale, so...
Yes, I agree. Although it can be that Featherine is just... let's say on Yasu's and Battler's side. The messages in the bottles were supposed to be a key to Yasu's heart, not to the truth in Rokkenjima for which there's no ways for it to be found out, apart from Eva's diary (and as there's no red truth in the world we don't know if she wrote the truth) and Featherine is interested in them, not in the truth.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 16:37   Link #33773
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I like to think that probably Bern was just being a dick.
I'm sure Bernkastel was just being a dick. At the same time, I think it's pretty clear that what she showed them was true.

Willard called it a "heartless truth". If Bernkastel was just making it up then he could've instead said "this is just straight-up false".
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 18:33   Link #33774
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Haguruma, if it's not a problem I've been wondering if we can ask you to type down the new red truths and blue truths in Ep 8 that came up in the battle between Will, Dlanor and the goats and the one that came up in the battle between Battler and Erika so we can reason better on them.

I'm not asking for the ones that came up during Bern's game because I think they're relevant only to it and/or are more or less the same of the VN.

Of course if it's not a problem and you've free time. I know you've translated some already but a more ordered collective post would probably help.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-12-30 at 21:37.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 21:26   Link #33775
Golden Bug-Hunter
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I'm sure Bernkastel was just being a dick. At the same time, I think it's pretty clear that what she showed them was true.

Willard called it a "heartless truth". If Bernkastel was just making it up then he could've instead said "this is just straight-up false".
In context, I think the phrase 'Truth' means 'any reasonable theory that can not be disproved from the available evidence'. Remember the talk about the Von Braun tube and such in Ep 3. Saying 'This is just straight up false' requires a lot more evidence than anyone has for Prime. So, it's not something he can prove is wrong, but being mister 'Don't forget the heart', he doesn't exactly find it likely.
Golden Bug-Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 21:43   Link #33776
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
In context, I think the phrase 'Truth' means 'any reasonable theory that can not be disproved from the available evidence'. Remember the talk about the Von Braun tube and such in Ep 3. Saying 'This is just straight up false' requires a lot more evidence than anyone has for Prime. So, it's not something he can prove is wrong, but being mister 'Don't forget the heart', he doesn't exactly find it likely.
Well, as it had been confirmed by Eva's diary, the core of Bern's story is true. It probably speculated on some things like Jessica's death for example and might have been biased toward Eva but... I think overall a good part of what Bern showed has good chances of being true and probably Will figured it out as well. In fact his only countering is that Bern can't prove it, which can be the same countering one can use against Eva's diary. Eva might have lied while writing it, we can decide not to believe in it... but it's not likely she completely made up a story in order to seal it.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 21:58   Link #33777
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Eva might have lied while writing it, we can decide not to believe in it... but it's not likely she completely made up a story in order to seal it.
Then the question would also come up, why would Eva have lied in her diary? In a book that was not supposed to be seen by anybody. A book that starts with the words, "I write this to forget, or maybe to never forget. But if I do not write it down, I will go insane."

It would be a completely different thing if it was a statement she released, but this is something completely different. It won't be lies, but it's likely that it is told from a certain perspective with a not completely objective perception.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-30, 22:50   Link #33778
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Then the question would also come up, why would Eva have lied in her diary? In a book that was not supposed to be seen by anybody. A book that starts with the words, "I write this to forget, or maybe to never forget. But if I do not write it down, I will go insane."

It would be a completely different thing if it was a statement she released, but this is something completely different. It won't be lies, but it's likely that it is told from a certain perspective with a not completely objective perception.
Well, my idea is that she didn't lie although she could have done it. LOL, a loveless diary? Like Ep 5 game? ^_-

Anyway personally I don't think she lied in the true sense of the word, more likely she reported things from her perspective so for example Rosa could have sounded more of a jerk than what she actually was. Same for Krauss.

Theoretically it would be possible for her to alter the truth were she... believe in her lies. Sort of like Maria who wrote she had a teaparty with the witches. As Ryukishi had said we can still stretch the Eva culprit theory. If Eva went themporally insane and then fabricated a truth to cover up the fact she killed everyone and believed in that truth because her mind couldn't face reality... that was the truth for Eva.

Put this possibility aside I BELIEVE EVA HAD TOLD IN HER DIARY THE FACTUAL TRUTH AS FAR AS SHE KNEW IT AND MAYBE A LITTLE BIASED TOWARD HER AND NOT A CONSTRUCT OF HER FANTASY THAT SHE USED TO COVER UP THE REAL TRUTH OR A DELIBERATE LIE.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-31, 02:47   Link #33779
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Theoretically it would be possible for her to alter the truth were she... believe in her lies. Sort of like Maria who wrote she had a teaparty with the witches. As Ryukishi had said we can still stretch the Eva culprit theory. If Eva went themporally insane and then fabricated a truth to cover up the fact she killed everyone and believed in that truth because her mind couldn't face reality... that was the truth for Eva.
I'd agree it's a little far-fetched but possible that Eva went insane and made something up.

But even with that possibility aside, there are several things that could have made her account not 100% factual. Bias, yes, but also things like gaps in her memory that she could have filled in without realising she had done so. Any time a person accesses a memory, the memory changes, and in the end a memory can be something totally different from the original, especially if it's a memory that's recalled many times. Eva probably couldn't get the incident out of her mind during the time before when she wrote her diary. I'd say her account is probably broadly true, but a lot of the details could be wrong.
GoldenLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-12-31, 08:09   Link #33780
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I'd agree it's a little far-fetched but possible that Eva went insane and made something up.

But even with that possibility aside, there are several things that could have made her account not 100% factual. Bias, yes, but also things like gaps in her memory that she could have filled in without realising she had done so. Any time a person accesses a memory, the memory changes, and in the end a memory can be something totally different from the original, especially if it's a memory that's recalled many times. Eva probably couldn't get the incident out of her mind during the time before when she wrote her diary. I'd say her account is probably broadly true, but a lot of the details could be wrong.
Yes, but I guess the core is what really matter, at least for Ange, and the core is likely that Eva (or Eva and Hideyoshi) killed Natsuhi and Krauss while arguing (Natsuhi by mistake, Krauss in self defence) and Rosa refused to help them covered it up. Then Rosa and Hideyoshi were shot to death while Eva was shoot but only ended up unconscious.
The shooting wasn't done by Beatrice and the only other people Eva could see in the room that could have done the shooting were Kyrie and Rudolf.
Later, when Eva woke up, she found the bodies of Jessica and George while Rudolf and Kyrie were wandering for the place still alive.

Let's assume Eva didn't see Kyrie and/or Rudolf killing anyone and the dialogues in Ep 7 were purely a fantasy. It's still hard to picture that, at least in the room of the gold, someone else had slid inside unseen and had managed to grab a gun or had a 5th gun with himself and shoot at Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva.

Out of the room of the gold everything could have happened, maybe Rudolf and Kyrie didn't mean to kill George and Jessica but they saw something and attacked them and they reacted in self defence. Or they had already killed each other in a 'love duel' and Eva assumed they were killed by Rudolf and Kyrie.

Whatever it is, I still think the fact her parents killed 2 people, tried to kill Eva and were assumed to be the culprits of the death of everyone else is enough to break Ange.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.