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Old 2009-11-17, 18:40   Link #3361
Workworkwork
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Like I said, sympathy points.

Not to mention she's like, the only character in Umineko that wears pantyhose aww damn where are all the Erika foot fetish images Japan
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Old 2009-11-17, 23:12   Link #3362
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Like I said, sympathy points.

Not to mention she's like, the only character in Umineko that wears pantyhose aww damn where are all the Erika foot fetish images Japan
I think Natsuhi wears them too... and Lady MARIA.
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Old 2009-11-18, 02:00   Link #3363
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This is why Ep5 is such a fucking farce. I know it's intended to be, but if Ryukishi wasn't as talented as he is, I'd be a lot angrier that we seem to be forced into accepting this.

Furthermore, Dlanor's red only works if Erika is actively looking for secret passages.

Invasion Entrance X can exist so long as the detective does not look for it, which Battler NEVER did in previous Eps.
I don't think it's a farce, it's just that we haven't been told all the rules. The two players in EP5 are Bern and Lambda, so it's only natural that we don't know all the rules and everything that went on during the first play-through of the game. If they made a rule at the beginning of the game that Erika could find all secret passages, then it's just like a chess piece. No one complains that a queen can move all the way across the battlefield instantly to capture a castle when most real queens were not capable of such a thing (as far as I know...) Seems to me like they just added a few rules that ruin the spirit of Beato's game, but not the actual game itself.
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Old 2009-11-18, 02:43   Link #3364
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I agree. Ronove was able to see how they were playing the game before Battler was there and said it lacked love and was dishonorable.

Dlanor explained some problems to Battler when they were outside the game board:
-Dlanor gave Cornelia the red text to guard that window but she couldn't use it.
-Bern and Lambda were playing like they didn't know Kinzo was already dead.

I think that the game board for episode 5 is still under Beatrice's rules but the players are not playing the game the way it was intended to be played.

Beatrice's rules:
-Only red/gold truth can be trusted regarding events of the game board.
-All blue truth must be countered by red truth before the game ends.
-During the game an attempt must be made to murder people according to the epitaph.

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Last edited by Ssol; 2009-11-21 at 01:37.
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Old 2009-11-18, 04:51   Link #3365
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I don't think it's a farce, it's just that we haven't been told all the rules. The two players in EP5 are Bern and Lambda, so it's only natural that we don't know all the rules and everything that went on during the first play-through of the game. If they made a rule at the beginning of the game that Erika could find all secret passages, then it's just like a chess piece. No one complains that a queen can move all the way across the battlefield instantly to capture a castle when most real queens were not capable of such a thing (as far as I know...) Seems to me like they just added a few rules that ruin the spirit of Beato's game, but not the actual game itself.
But the real world doesn't work this way. The meta-world is conceptual, it should have no actual effect on reality.

All the things Erika said she did and we're told is capable of doing, breaks willing suspension of disbelief entirely. It's just stupid.

I'm sort of inclined to side with Jan-Poo and believe that the real world we're shown in Ep5 isn't the real world at all.
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Old 2009-11-18, 04:57   Link #3366
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From the extra TIPS "Bernkastel letter", Bern said that the Rules X, Y and Z were like this:

1. Rule X: it pointed to the heart of the witch. Just like in Higurashi, the fact that "the incident started after the festival and Rika died whatsoever" pointed to a plot and suspects behind the scene. In Umineko, the killing started from 4th Oct and finished at the end of 5th Oct while no one was able to survive in the end normally was the situation. The heart of the witch is the identity of Beatrice.

2. Rule Y: In Higurashi, people got killed in the violent ways and different people became murderers in different conditions. This pointed to the truth of Oyashirou: Hinamizawa Syndrome. In Umineko, even though people were killed in different order, the killing was accorded to the epitaph. Rule Y pointed to the nature and motive of serial killing.

3. Rule Z: In Higurashi, Sonozaki family was posed as culprit behind all previous deaths. In Umineko, magic and Beatrice confused the exact nature of Rule X and Y. Bern said that while Rule Z in Higurashi is fixed (like a maze with fixed structure), rule Z in Umineko is indefinite but still take a form (a maze changing its structure in each episode.

(The three rules are my interpretation, anyone could interpret them differently.)

Interestingly, the letter seemed to be writing to an entity even higher to herself (to Hanyuu? or to Rika?). She stated also that Beatrice was close to that entity and suffered from the same "disease".

Spoiler for Bern's letter (translated by someone else):

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-18 at 09:48.
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Old 2009-11-18, 05:56   Link #3367
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Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
I think Natsuhi wears them too... and Lady MARIA.
Yeah, but Erika is a likelier candidate because she's like, 16 years old with a flat chest.
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Old 2009-11-18, 08:16   Link #3368
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I'd like t to know how chrono and Ssol interpret the "lack of love" Ronove is talking about.

In other words, what is this love Ronove is talking about? Certainly a game where people get killed in gruesome ways doesn't look like something a person would define "filled with love" in a conventional sense. You can't even think there is respect or care for the characters seeing at how Kanon was mocked in Ep3 or the Jessikanon and George+Shannon scenes of Ep2. What love is there for people who get their faces completely smashed or get their stomaches open and filled with sweets?

I think there is only one possible interpretation, and that's the one Dlanor explains. "Love" in this case is the bond of trust that is created between the writer and the reader. It naturally goes both ways, the writer must create a story for the reader to use and the reader must have faith that the writer isn't "cheating".
The definition of what is "cheating" and what is not is expressed by the Knox rules themselves. As Dlanor said, her father created those rules for this very reason.

In conclusion, imho, if a story is solvable then there is love, if a story isn't solvable then there's no love. But Lambda's game shows no love as stated by Ronove. This is why I say Lambda's game is not solvable. Not because "I gave up", but because saying that is solvable goes against what it is said in the story itself.
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Old 2009-11-18, 09:20   Link #3369
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Is it only me who read Bernkastel's letter and was somehow reminded of BT-san? ;_; *sobs*

Ryukishi-san is really trying to wreck our brains throwing references to Higurashi here and there. I guess that beside from solving the murder, how higu and umi relate to each other (or whether they have any connection at all) is a mystery he throws in for us to solve...or just to distract us?

I am interested in Battler's new status as a GM at the end of EP5 and how it will affect his final game with Beatrice (assumes that there will be one). If the GM status is kept until that time then we will have 2 GM playing against each other, freely modifying the game board per turn as they wish? (Something like Beato carrying out the murder VS Battler saving everyone?)
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Old 2009-11-18, 10:50   Link #3370
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Originally Posted by Jellyfish Marine View Post
Is it only me who read Bernkastel's letter and was somehow reminded of BT-san? ;_; *sobs*

Ryukishi-san is really trying to wreck our brains throwing references to Higurashi here and there. I guess that beside from solving the murder, how higu and umi relate to each other (or whether they have any connection at all) is a mystery he throws in for us to solve...or just to distract us?

I am interested in Battler's new status as a GM at the end of EP5 and how it will affect his final game with Beatrice (assumes that there will be one). If the GM status is kept until that time then we will have 2 GM playing against each other, freely modifying the game board per turn as they wish? (Something like Beato carrying out the murder VS Battler saving everyone?)
...Battler TOOK OVER Beato's position as GM.
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Old 2009-11-18, 11:50   Link #3371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'd like t to know how chrono and Ssol interpret the "lack of love" Ronove is talking about.

In other words, what is this love Ronove is talking about?
It was covered in the prologue.

I already gave two specific examples in my previous post.

Here is the text from the game:
Spoiler for ”Episode 5 Text”:

あきらめないで下さい! Please don't give up
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Old 2009-11-18, 14:34   Link #3372
Kaisos Erranon
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All those lines mean is that we can trust the red we're given: Not that the game is solvable in any way.

You can still write an unsolvable mystery using the same, classic, Knox-approved techniques... the way to do it is to not give out enough information to the reader.
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Old 2009-11-18, 21:26   Link #3373
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Alright, here's that gold text theory that I keep going on about:

Spoiler for gold text theory:
Sorry it's so ridiculously huge, but I think it explains all pretty much everything about the game, and it's actually pretty simple once you get it.
So far, no one has been able to discount it yet, and I haven't heard a different theory which explains everything. Though it does have a few weaker points.
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Old 2009-11-19, 01:07   Link #3374
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I wonder if gold text really existed prior to episode 5...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler
You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!
However, I think your theory is great. Very impressive work. It definitely sounds like the rules for the gold text... from episode 5 onward.

If it existed prior to to episode 5 then the previously quoted red next binds it to be untrustworthy. There could not have been a rule that said "Gold text is trustworthy" because then the red text Battler used would have been impossible.

Gold text was created in episode 5. The exact rules of it are unknown but it is similar in some aspects to red text.

I think Chronotrig's theory works as a good explanation for now though.
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Last edited by Ssol; 2009-11-19 at 01:33.
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Old 2009-11-19, 04:00   Link #3375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I wonder if gold text really existed prior to episode 5...



However, I think your theory is great. Very impressive work. It definitely sounds like the rules for the gold text... from episode 5 onward.

If it existed prior to to episode 5 then the previously quoted red next binds it to be untrustworthy. There could not have been a rule that said "Gold text is trustworthy" because then the red text Battler used would have been impossible.

Gold text was created in episode 5. The exact rules of it are unknown but it is similar in some aspects to red text.

I think Chronotrig's theory works as a good explanation for now though.
Spoiler for size:


Oh, and thanks for reading it
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2009-11-19 at 04:16.
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Old 2009-11-19, 04:46   Link #3376
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Also, Battler says you can't trust anything that isn't red. However, anything said in gold can then also be said in red (in fact, hearing it said in gold should be enough evidence for anyone to say it in red themselves), so I don't see any contradiction. He says you can't trust 赤くない言葉 or non-red words, and a gold sentence is also a red sentence by definition.
Ah, since they both represent the truth, 赤き真実 = 黄金の真実? That effectively gets around that red truth of Battler's.

That makes it possible that the gold truth has been around from the beginning and Battler just never saw Beatrice use it. If he didn't learn how to use it from Beatrice then how did it learn to use it?

Since Battler is the new game master he will need to use it to setup the new game. Then we will know all the rules. (Hopefully in episode 6)
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Old 2009-11-19, 06:05   Link #3377
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
*gold text theory*
I'll think about this more tomorrow, but I will say this:

Sure, magic is lies. But the way you're putting it, they sound like magic lies.

Basically, magic exists conceptually rather than in reality, right? But the way gold text seems to work, it still has to effect reality on some strange metaphysical level.

It reminds me a lot of how stuff in the Nasuverse works, actually.
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Old 2009-11-19, 12:31   Link #3378
Jan-Poo
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Chronotrig's theory is sound and very interesting, but I still think it is overly complicated.

My personal idea of the gold is a little different.

It certainly is something that only the Gamemaster can use and the game master creates the games so it is perfectly logic to assume that the gold can be used to "create" the game.

However I believe that gold is only limited to the gameboard and can't have any effect outside of it.

Red on the contrary can be used for any event that is real. We have proof that it has been used to affirm things that happened in a distant past.

This is exactly why, imho, Battler could not say in gold that "Kinzo died before the game", because that's an event outside the gameboard, however he could say that (here, right now) there is Kinzo's corpse.

This kind of interpretation clearly explains why gold is by no means superior than red, matching with what Dlanor said.

To translate it in actual facts, when Battler said in gold that "this is Kinzo's corpse" he created inside the game a situation where he found "without a doubt" Kinzo's corpse.
At that point Dlanor couldn't counter anymore, because that became the reality inside the game. The proof of that event happening was provided by the gold itself.
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Old 2009-11-19, 13:25   Link #3379
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'll think about this more tomorrow, but I will say this:

Sure, magic is lies. But the way you're putting it, they sound like magic lies.

Basically, magic exists conceptually rather than in reality, right? But the way gold text seems to work, it still has to effect reality on some strange metaphysical level.

It reminds me a lot of how stuff in the Nasuverse works, actually.
Spoiler for size:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size:
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Old 2009-11-19, 13:35   Link #3380
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Well it's just a small difference, it's not like what I said completely goes against your theory, but the way you have put it looks like red is based on gold, which imho ins't a general rule, though inside the game it might work that way, but merely because gold sets a "truth" inside the game, not because red itself depends on gold. That's how I see it.
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