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Old 2014-01-01, 00:29   Link #33781
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes, but I guess the core is what really matter, at least for Ange, and the core is likely that Eva (or Eva and Hideyoshi) killed Natsuhi and Krauss while arguing (Natsuhi by mistake, Krauss in self defence) and Rosa refused to help them covered it up. Then Rosa and Hideyoshi were shot to death while Eva was shoot but only ended up unconscious.
Btw. concerning your confusion about the process of getting guns, I read the scene again and I find it pretty clear.
There are 4 guns. One basically goes to each party, Krauss gets a gun, Eva gets a gun, Rosa gets a gun, and Kyrie gets a gun (which is weird enough in itself, because Rudolph is the only sibling not handling a gun himself).
Eva and Krauss argue, Natsuhi goes in between them, ending in her getting shot and Eva dropping her gun in shock. Krauss charges at Eva and is stopped by Hideyoshi, he ends up being shot by his own gun and the gun is dropped as well. Now Rosa and Kyrie are the only ones holding guns. Rosa is shot by Kyrie, since she holds the only gun that hasn't been fired yet.
When Kyrie threatens Eva and Hideyoshi, they try to recharge Eva's and Krauss' gun but fail. It is likely that the gun Kyrie is holding is "Chiester556", since that is likely the one where the aim is off.

And then, if we look at the scenes that Eva actually observed, I find they paint an interesting picture:
When Eva wakes up she apparently only sees Rosa, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi and Krauss lying dead, there is no mention of Beatrice. Then she sees the bullets and that a larger number of them had been removed, which immediately makes her think that Kyrie and Rudolph must have gone to kill everybody. "They might have gone to kill everybody who's left. Yes...that must be it...there's no doubt!"

Then, when she meets with Rudolph and accuses him of murdering her husband in cold blood, he responds with saying, "Calm down, big sis...lower the gun down...It wasn't like I wanted that to happen. It all happened suddenly. I couldn't do anything either." Also, his description of George includes him saying it "regretfully had to be done (もうやっちまったぜ)"...which seems a weird thing to say if he actually was the heartless murderer that the plot of the play tries to paint him.
We also have the words that Kyrie tries to say in response to Eva promising that she'll etch the story of Kyrie as a caring mother into the lid of the cat-box, which don't come out because of the blood...which basically makes Kyrie into a cat-box of her own.
Yes, what she said was heartless and horrible, but she also argued very controlled with examples Eva would definitely react to...especially calling out to Rosa's relationship to Maria.

I really think that there is still something hidden behind that which Eva witnessed...I just question we will ever learn what it is, because there is no way, unless manga Tohya remembers everything.
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Old 2014-01-01, 07:43   Link #33782
Leafsnail
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I think Tohya probably does remember everything. He was able to write Alliance, afterall, which is similar to Prime in quite a few ways. In the VN he tries to preserve the catbox. However, in the manga he could realize Ange already read Eva's diary - meaning he needs to step in to explain Kyrie's heart and lessen the pain.

And it's fair to say that Rudolf's lines don't fit the story Eva constructed at all, yeah.
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Old 2014-01-01, 18:42   Link #33783
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Btw. concerning your confusion about the process of getting guns, I read the scene again and I find it pretty clear.
There are 4 guns. One basically goes to each party, Krauss gets a gun, Eva gets a gun, Rosa gets a gun, and Kyrie gets a gun (which is weird enough in itself, because Rudolph is the only sibling not handling a gun himself).
Eva and Krauss argue, Natsuhi goes in between them, ending in her getting shot and Eva dropping her gun in shock. Krauss charges at Eva and is stopped by Hideyoshi, he ends up being shot by his own gun and the gun is dropped as well.
Well, maybe it's a translation's problem as I read it translated from Japanese to English then I've to translate English to Italian but we've Krauss complaining Eva got a gun and this is scaring them.
Sure, he doesn't say Eva's name so it can be all the 3 siblings got one at the same time but then when he got his? And if he also got his, his sentence seems a little out of place as he also has a gun. Not mentioning the weirdness of each of them being close enough to the guns to take one at the same time.

But it's still possible they did it, that they all had the same idea at the same time and Krauss, instead than trying to stop them to get the gun also got one as well (or vice versa as from this perspective it's hard to say who got the gun first).

So... uhm, Eva got a gun and face Krauss who also got a gun, Kyrie got a gun and face Natsuhi, rosa got a gun and face... the wall, apparently as she's not dealing with it with either Krauss or Natsuhi. Still possible but somehow shaky.

But then the English text mention a scuffle between Krauss and Eva and this, according to the translation I get, implies physical contact.

If it was a verbal sparring I'll be fine but with physical contact they've to be close and... the guns get in the way. If you grab a gun your first reaction should be point it to the other person and this goes in the way of physically fighting with him (unless you wave it like some sort of saber since they're similar to rifles but that's silly).

And since they're fighting it gets weird that Natsuhi gets in between them.

But let's assume a scuffle is verbal sparring and my dictionary is failing me.

It's still weird that Natsuhi would tosse herself at Eva, with Kyrie and Rosa also holding a gun and capable to shoot at Krauss when she was arguing with Kyrie moments ago. It'll make more sense if she tossed herself in front of Krauss to shield him, than in front of Eva.

But let's assume even if Kyrie and Rosa have a gun Natsuhi believed they wouldn't use it for more than just... scratching their chin?

So, see my problem? The text didn't describe things the way you did, but in a way that make me think the actions of the characters are odd and, if I want to make sense of them, I've to make excuses for them or pretend to not notice details. Which isn't a good thing in an 'action scene' narrated in third person so supposedly narrated in a way that should have coerency.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Now Rosa and Kyrie are the only ones holding guns. Rosa is shot by Kyrie, since she holds the only gun that hasn't been fired yet.
Nope. Eva will pick up her gun again and point it at Rosa (after she made it fall when she shoot Natsuhi). But somehow after Rosa dies evidently she drops it again... which is stupid because really (also the shoot should have caused her to contract the muscles in sudden shock and hold the gun but let's assume she dropped it after she saw Rosa fall), after killing Rosa Kyrie becomes rather suspicious.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
When Kyrie threatens Eva and Hideyoshi, they try to recharge Eva's and Krauss' gun but fail. It is likely that the gun Kyrie is holding is "Chiester556", since that is likely the one where the aim is off.
Hideyoshi tries but fails as he doesn't Eva time enough. Eva has all the time to do it right as she had the time Hideyoshi had plus all the time Kyrie spent talking before recharging and shooting her, time in which in fact Eva attempts to recharge and would have also managed to shoot Kyrie had she known how to recharge or had she had better luck. In fact she'll manage to learn pretty fast because the next time she'll try she'll do it just fine.
Kyrie recharged her gun after Eva tried and failed. Had Eva succeeded Eva would have also have all the time to shoot at Kyrie who hadn't recharged her gun yet.

Of course probably Kyrie didn't read the rules of the perfect Evil Overlord but still all her waiting and giving Eva chances (without even keeping her under her aim) sort of ruined the thing for me.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And then, if we look at the scenes that Eva actually observed, I find they paint an interesting picture:
When Eva wakes up she apparently only sees Rosa, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi and Krauss lying dead, there is no mention of Beatrice. Then she sees the bullets and that a larger number of them had been removed, which immediately makes her think that Kyrie and Rudolph must have gone to kill everybody. "They might have gone to kill everybody who's left. Yes...that must be it...there's no doubt!"

Then, when she meets with Rudolph and accuses him of murdering her husband in cold blood, he responds with saying, "Calm down, big sis...lower the gun down...It wasn't like I wanted that to happen. It all happened suddenly. I couldn't do anything either." Also, his description of George includes him saying it "regretfully had to be done (もうやっちまったぜ)"...which seems a weird thing to say if he actually was the heartless murderer that the plot of the play tries to paint him.
Yes, in fact Eva doesn't really know what had happened after and it can be all her speculation. George might have had figured up something so he tried to kill Rudolf so Rudolf had to kill him... or George became dangerous for some other reasons. It's also possible the cousins had solved the epitaph, short after than the adults and had come there on their own. Maybe they had found Kyrie and Rudolf dragging out Beatrice as they really thought they could use her to get access to the gold and then things had gone... messy.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
We also have the words that Kyrie tries to say in response to Eva promising that she'll etch the story of Kyrie as a caring mother into the lid of the cat-box, which don't come out because of the blood...which basically makes Kyrie into a cat-box of her own.
Yes, what she said was heartless and horrible, but she also argued very controlled with examples Eva would definitely react to...especially calling out to Rosa's relationship to Maria.

I really think that there is still something hidden behind that which Eva witnessed...I just question we will ever learn what it is, because there is no way, unless manga Tohya remembers everything.
I would love to learn more details about what had happened (or at least what Kyrie had said and how Battler found the passage and if she learnt it from Beatrice) but as of now we can only hope in the manga. It can be Beatrice tried to explain if we've to trust in how Lion tried to escape his own death (which can be a 'reflection' of what happened to Beatrice).
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Old 2014-01-01, 20:26   Link #33784
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I'd assume with the scuffle it was a physical thing. It is known that the guns can be held comfortably in one hand, and as Krauss and Eva were fighting before things got really serious it was probably more of a shoulder pushing, arm grabbing sort of thing. I imagine guns weren't pointed till Natsuhi got in the way
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Old 2014-01-01, 21:04   Link #33785
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I'd assume with the scuffle it was a physical thing. It is known that the guns can be held comfortably in one hand, and as Krauss and Eva were fighting before things got really serious it was probably more of a shoulder pushing, arm grabbing sort of thing. I imagine guns weren't pointed till Natsuhi got in the way
I'm not saying it is... just that's not what someone who grabbed a gun would do. If you've a gun you point it at your target. Otherwise, if you want to have a scuffle, holding the gun in your dominant hand (because generally that's where you would hold it) becomes an indrance in your scuffle, as if you were to tie your hand behind your back.

And with the scuffle being physical is still weird Natsuhi would try to get in between. Krauss has much more chances to stop his sister than her and he's not in life threatening danger if they're just pushing each other or something.

Really, that scene needed to be streamlined better so that it would come out more natual, instead than weird because people seem to choose the oddest path to get a result at which they can arrive in a way simpler way.

Why couldn't we have a simple: Eva grabs the gun and tries to aim at Krauss, Natsuhi gets scared and jumps on her trying to stop her and gets shoot. In rage Krauss tries to kill her and gets killed by her in self defence.
Rosa, Kyrie and Rudolf have grabbed a gun, Rosa claiming Eva shoot them on purpose and they'll have to go to the police or she'll shoot them and Kyrie shoots her apparently to save Eva but then turns her gun on Hideyoshi and Eva without so much chatting. Who cares about the guns being difficult to recharge for an amateur, Eva not only will learn with no problems short after, she'll also be good enough to shoot Rudolf and Kyrie.

Let her be a woman who knows how a gun work... which is much better than a woman who suddently get lucky and not only is not shoot but also learn to recharge and to use the gun to kill the two experts in guns with no problems and not even a serious scratch.

(which also makes me wonder... wasn't she examinated by the police and the doctors when she was found? Didn't anyone noticed the head injury the bullet grazing at her should have made?)
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Old 2014-01-01, 21:27   Link #33786
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Eva could just scratch her face or something to hide that.

I've been thinking about it, and I think that actually being the sole survivor of the Rokkenjima incident, even with your family also surviving, really wouldn't get you into much legal trouble. It's not just that you couldn't get a guilty verdict due to lack of evidence. It's that you probably wouldn't even be able to form a coherent case due to lack of information.

Challenge: imagine Kyrie, Rudolf and Battler are the sole survivors of the incident. Can you form a remotely plausible case against them using only the information that an R-Prime prosecutor would have? As far as I can tell it would have to be something along the lines of "So Kinzo had this big stack of explosives, which he rigged to blow on demand for some reason. Kyrie somehow learnt about this stack of explosives at some point and set them off. Here are some message bottles we found, they appear to the the confessions of someone else."
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Old 2014-01-01, 22:18   Link #33787
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Haguruma, if it's not a problem I've been wondering if we can ask you to type down the new red truths and blue truths in Ep 8 that came up in the battle between Will, Dlanor and the goats and the one that came up in the battle between Battler and Erika so we can reason better on them.
Here you go btw:

Spoiler for EP8 Manga Red Truth:


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Let her be a woman who knows how a gun work... which is much better than a woman who suddently get lucky and not only is not shoot but also learn to recharge and to use the gun to kill the two experts in guns with no problems and not even a serious scratch.
Well, she got Rudolph by surprise more or less and with Kyrie, there's a strong case to make that her gun was either broken or out of ammunition...or maybe she didn't even want to win the duel. Also, it was necessary to have the confirmation that the guns are hard to handle, since this is something that was never much brought up in the forgeries.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
"So Kinzo had this big stack of explosives, which he rigged to blow on demand for some reason. Kyrie somehow learnt about this stack of explosives at some point and set them off. Here are some message bottles we found, they appear to the the confessions of someone else."
I also imagined something along these lines. Sure, they could have used all this circumstancial evidence to build a case, but it's really questionable how far that would have gone. Sure, with all three of them surviving there would have been a stronger case, since the family disputes were apparently mass media knowledge...still, this would all be based on assumptions.
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Old 2014-01-01, 22:19   Link #33788
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Eva could just scratch her face or something to hide that.
Well, I'm no doctor and I don't know how much examination the Japanese police would have performed back then so I might be wrong but I'm not sure it would be that easy. But let's pretend it work.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I've been thinking about it, and I think that actually being the sole survivor of the Rokkenjima incident, even with your family also surviving, really wouldn't get you into much legal trouble. It's not just that you couldn't get a guilty verdict due to lack of evidence. It's that you probably wouldn't even be able to form a coherent case due to lack of information.

Challenge: imagine Kyrie, Rudolf and Battler are the sole survivors of the incident. Can you form a remotely plausible case against them using only the information that an R-Prime prosecutor would have? As far as I can tell it would have to be something along the lines of "So Kinzo had this big stack of explosives, which he rigged to blow on demand for some reason. Kyrie somehow learnt about this stack of explosives at some point and set them off. Here are some message bottles we found, they appear to the the confessions of someone else."
The really tricky problem is not if I can manage not to be persecuted (we know they can as no case was held against Eva) but if they would blindly trust Sayo over all she said, the money and the bomb.
Expecially the bomb. The mechanism is old. Even if the explosives are still functioning and we believe she successfully knew how much of them to use on the shrine or they were connected to it for some reason... can we be sure the ones that should blast the island will work and will be as powerful as said? The only way to check if the mechanism work is to try it out and they've to wait till the following midnight. If nothing happens when the ship will come to get them all the proofs pointing to them will be still intact.
Sure, they might manage to leave claiming the others wanted to stay some more time on the island, grab the money, if there's some to grab and Sayo didn't make it up and... live in hiding for the rest of their lives.

If there's the money and they manage to grab it in time.

It can be worse. What if the explosive isn't as much as they think but just enough to attract the attention and not to blast the whole house? The police will come to investigate while they're still on the island.

No, the safest way once Krauss is shoot would have been to hand Eva to the police like Rosa said or otherwise hid Krauss and Natsuhi's murder. Or even say that Krauss and Natsuhi wanted to kill them all and that Eva had to act in self defence so maybe not even Eva would be prosecuted. They can show how Krauss hid Kinzo's death and use his money, they can speculate how Krauss might have killed Kinzo and planned to do the same with them and can force Sayo to use her connection to convert the gold.

Really, I'll understand if the plan of blasting the island were to allow them to keep all the money and the gold but as the plan includes destroying the gold when it could be saved... I don't know, to me it seems poor planning done for the sake of killing a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Here you go btw:

Spoiler for EP8 Manga Red Truth:
Did I already say you're my hero? Thank you so much!
LOL, Erika saw through the whole story at the end, didn't she? I bet she knows who's the culprit though it's interesting she didn't say its name.

And I still find a little annoying the culprits' names were turned into XXX in the manga also. Since it's obvious who they supposedly are those XXX placed there seem almost to imply the solution isn't the most obvious one...
It was fine in the visual novel in which we didn't see the diary nor it was directly compared to teh Teaparty but here...

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, she got Rudolph by surprise more or less and with Kyrie, there's a strong case to make that her gun was either broken or out of ammunition...or maybe she didn't even want to win the duel. Also, it was necessary to have the confirmation that the guns are hard to handle, since this is something that was never much brought up in the forgeries.
Well, Rudolf managed to fire but Eva's luck ensured he had the gun whose aim is off while she got a perfect score. Either she was really close (it shouldn't be the case since the bullet had the time to curve enough to land at her feet) ot it's really easy to aim and shoot with those guns.

Kyrie might have wanted to die... though she might have also wanted to check if Rudolf was really dead first since Eva wasn't.

I'm not really sure why we needed confirmation the guns are hard to handle as they get only used by the culprit, who has no problems with them, by Eva to shoot Battler and here again no problems and possibly by Rudolf and Kyrie who know how to use them just fine.

Natsuhi shoot once but she didn't realize she had a blank and Rosa didn't shoot.

Oh, Battler too did shoot just fine in Ep 1 before the bomb exploded but it's said Battler likes shooting games and might have also learnt to shoot by Rudolf.

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I also imagined something along these lines. Sure, they could have used all this circumstancial evidence to build a case, but it's really questionable how far that would have gone. Sure, with all three of them surviving there would have been a stronger case, since the family disputes were apparently mass media knowledge...still, this would all be based on assumptions.
Yes, if they destroy evidence there can't be a case... the problem is more: are they sure they can destroy evidence?

Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-01-01 at 22:42.
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Old 2014-01-01, 23:31   Link #33789
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In ep 3 Rudolph or Kyrie (I forget which) point out that the guns have a special one-handed RELOAD mechanism which can be quite difficult to use, not that the guns themselves are hard to shoot (hence why Battler could, though from memory he was using Natsuhi's blank gun anyway).

As for Eva, when she saw Natsuhi with the gun in ep 1 she pointed out that Kinzo never let her touch them, while we know he showed it to at least Kanon and maybe the other boys too.
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Old 2014-01-01, 23:36   Link #33790
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Also, interesting admission with the parlour trick in ep 5. So basically it was Battler telling us what Erika saw, not her telling us directly? And that means he could show us a fake number of people while the red claimed that the true number of people on the island really were in the parlour when all that occurred. I guess Erika just ignored the missing servant because she had Natsuhi.

I am not so sure that makes sense, as that was supposedly a rewind being shown to Battler that was staged by Lambda. On the other hand, that was metaBattler and though PieceBattler wasn't the detective in that game, it was still being presented from his POV, so I guess that it is a valid move.
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Old 2014-01-02, 04:15   Link #33791
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Really, that scene needed to be streamlined better so that it would come out more natual, instead than weird because people seem to choose the oddest path to get a result at which they can arrive in a way simpler way.
I still generally agree with you, but you are probably overestimating how willing the adults are to try to physically force one another. That is, you seem to think that once they grab the guns that there is immediately a huge standoff and they force Krauss to obey them or else they'll shoot, even though they clearly intended to just ARGUE him into submission. When Eva grips her gun and Krauss says "What do you intend to do with that?". he is clearly mocking her, and not afraid she'll shoot him.

You also keep mentioning Rosa, and again I ask, who is she aiming at, exactly? Eva, Yoshi, Rudolf, and Kyrie are on her side, and it's not like Rosa wants to actually hurt anybody. You say that she's "just standing there", but Krauss is already arguing with Eva, Natsuhi is already arguing with Rudolf + Kyrie, there is nobody left for Rosa to argue on her own with. Based on her characterization, and the scene itself, she was most likely just standing behind Eva or Rudolf, agreeing with them, like "Yeah, that's right!", or "Don't mess around with us!" and stuff like that.

I do prefer your own chain of events, though, as it's far less ambiguous.

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Also, interesting admission with the parlour trick in ep 5. So basically it was Battler telling us what Erika saw, not her telling us directly? And that means he could show us a fake number of people while the red claimed that the true number of people on the island really were in the parlour when all that occurred. I guess Erika just ignored the missing servant because she had Natsuhi.

I am not so sure that makes sense, as that was supposedly a rewind being shown to Battler that was staged by Lambda. On the other hand, that was metaBattler and though PieceBattler wasn't the detective in that game, it was still being presented from his POV, so I guess that it is a valid move.
Yeah even if it shows up at an uncontested theory here, it's just ... still dumb.

I mean, it's not like I can entirely deny it, and it's TRUE that Piece!Battler, an accomplice, narrates the first important parlor scene, but ... I mean, it's dumb. Erika relies on her piece for audio / visual information, and she is clearly aware of both Shannon and Kanon existing. Like, she at no point thinks one is missing.

But, she spends nearly an entire day in their company, talks to them, and gathers all the survivors into the parlor a second time for her denouement. I mean, when they discover Hideyoshi's "corpse" there's a moment when Shannon speaks, than Kanon responds to her, and Erika responds to him.

Even if I accept it as the intended solution (and when you try to think about the Episode in reverse, it's somewhat obvious why Ryu didn't just have Shkanon be among of the 7 victims), the intended solution is silly. Shenanigans, I say.
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Old 2014-01-02, 07:01   Link #33792
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IIRC in that scene Kanon is described as standing behind Gohda. I guess Erika doesn't care about him because she ready found her culprit.

Kyrie's actions are odd if she doesn't know anything, but she was an accomplice. She could easily have checked the bomb earlier.
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Old 2014-01-02, 07:51   Link #33793
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I mean, it's not like I can entirely deny it, and it's TRUE that Piece!Battler, an accomplice, narrates the first important parlor scene
Since Ryu himself later shows Battler seeing Kinzo and uses this to tell us he is lying/falsly narrating that scene it is a valid and genuinely tricky move from that perspective (How he must have laughed at our confusion over that one, "But didn't I already show you how that trick is done?"). What was not necessarily either of those was NOT having Erika care/comment that someone was missing, especially since she called them all to the parlor in the first place. It isn't like he couldn't at least have tried to do some half-twisted crazy logic handwave about why she wouldn't have cared, he loves doing that
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Old 2014-01-02, 09:42   Link #33794
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I still generally agree with you, but you are probably overestimating how willing the adults are to try to physically force one another. That is, you seem to think that once they grab the guns that there is immediately a huge standoff and they force Krauss to obey them or else they'll shoot, even though they clearly intended to just ARGUE him into submission. When Eva grips her gun and Krauss says "What do you intend to do with that?". he is clearly mocking her, and not afraid she'll shoot him.
The problem is that when you pick up a gun you do it with the intention to use it either to attack or to defend yourself. Of course you might not be able to act upon that intention.
Eva will later point her gun at Rosa, but won't be able to push the trigger.

Krauss moking her might reflect this. He knows his sister might wish to kill him but wouldn't have the gut to push the trigger. The point is he too took a gun instead of trying to stop Eva from getting hers. Either he too considered to push the trigger or wanted to defend from Eva, which means despite his words he considered the treat real.

So we've these 2 people with defensive/offensive intentions who automatically grabbed a gun and then... decide to not use it whatsoever as a mean to scare the other into submission or to get a stalemate but overcome any possible fear they could have of the other who's, after all, holding a gun and... began pushing each other or whatever they're doing? With their left hands as they don't let go of the gun?

And Natsuhi finds them so scary she had to get in between?

All this is possible, of course, but all this isn't... what's the most normal way to handle the situation. As a result the situation doesn't feel impossible but odd as if there's something amiss. It'll be fine if we had a first person narration with Eva as the narrator. She's upset, she doesn't have a full grasp of what's going on so maybe she doesn't even remember well the facts or know them all.

For example Natsuhi might have not jumped at her, she might have been shoved against her by Rosa or Kyrie or Rudolf and... she hadn't even realized as she was focused on Krauss.

Actually I think that was the general idea behind the teaparty, that its plot was the product of reading Eva's diary and possibly Yasu's confession and then making up the missing parts.

So if no one says what Rosa or Hideyoshi are doing because no one paid them attention... they 'disappear'.

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You also keep mentioning Rosa, and again I ask, who is she aiming at, exactly? Eva, Yoshi, Rudolf, and Kyrie are on her side, and it's not like Rosa wants to actually hurt anybody. You say that she's "just standing there", but Krauss is already arguing with Eva, Natsuhi is already arguing with Rudolf + Kyrie, there is nobody left for Rosa to argue on her own with. Based on her characterization, and the scene itself, she was most likely just standing behind Eva or Rudolf, agreeing with them, like "Yeah, that's right!", or "Don't mess around with us!" and stuff like that.
Rosa felt the need to take a gun. Either she wanted to defend herself from Krauss (who also has a gun) or wanted to join Eva in threating him with a gun.
The same theoretically go for Kyrie but she might be busy facing Natsuhi so maybe she can't aim at Krauss with Natsuhi on her way. Rosa could though.

She can say: Niisan, there's 2 guns pointed at you. Be reasonable and put down your gun. We don't want to hurt you, we just want you to be cooperative.

So Rosa should be aiming at Krauss, either to defend herself or either to attack him. After all in Ep 2 she did nothing else but wave around the gun she had and now... what is she using that for?

Again, it's possible for her to stand there with the gun and... count sheeps and wolves but that's not what you would expect by someone who got a gun. Again we've a case where action is possible but... odd.

If something odd happens for no reason it becomes just a distracting background noise. And the scene didn't need it.

So it's not as I'm denying the scene as impossible. It's just I'm dissatisfied with it because action takes place in an apparently odd manner for apparently no good reason.
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yeah even if it shows up at an uncontested theory here, it's just ... still dumb.

I mean, it's not like I can entirely deny it, and it's TRUE that Piece!Battler, an accomplice, narrates the first important parlor scene, but ... I mean, it's dumb. Erika relies on her piece for audio / visual information, and she is clearly aware of both Shannon and Kanon existing. Like, she at no point thinks one is missing.

But, she spends nearly an entire day in their company, talks to them, and gathers all the survivors into the parlor a second time for her denouement. I mean, when they discover Hideyoshi's "corpse" there's a moment when Shannon speaks, than Kanon responds to her, and Erika responds to him.

Even if I accept it as the intended solution (and when you try to think about the Episode in reverse, it's somewhat obvious why Ryu didn't just have Shkanon be among of the 7 victims), the intended solution is silly. Shenanigans, I say.
Bah, the only theory I can make up is that both PieceBattler and PieceErika were constructed to be incompetent (Erika a little less than Battler) so that they couldn't solve the case that would have to end up in the darkness that belongs to the witch and their Meta versions ended up relying too much on them, failing to get it (to be fair Battler had been warned in red but he missed the hint taking it as a personal insult).
After all in Ep 5 Erika will not check the people in the rooom as well as the corpses and will deliberately ignore the red stating Kinzo is dead in favour of building up a theory that pleases Bern about Natsuhi being the culprit.
She also won't use her detective authority to check the room in which Natsuhi is hiding and won't grasp immediately how Battler jumped down of the window even if she had seen how the outside looked and once she had it would have been the most obvious deduction. It's her Meta self (who's evidently is more competent) who realizes the way, relying on the info she received and not visual aid.
PieceErika doesn't even ask to see the envelope with which was delivered Kinzo's ring and check if on it there were fingertips, yet she'll search for fingertips in other places.

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Since Ryu himself later shows Battler seeing Kinzo and uses this to tell us he is lying/falsly narrating that scene it is a valid and genuinely tricky move from that perspective (How he must have laughed at our confusion over that one, "But didn't I already show you how that trick is done?"). What was not necessarily either of those was NOT having Erika care/comment that someone was missing, especially since she called them all to the parlor in the first place. It isn't like he couldn't at least have tried to do some half-twisted crazy logic handwave about why she wouldn't have cared, he loves doing that
I also add I would have apprecciated people commenting on how Kanon and Shannon look similar. They have the same face yet no one notices/mentions that despite being related they look at least similar? Not even Erika with her photographic memory?

Had we at least been left in the belief they were related I could have swallowed it as being waved off due to their family ties but Shannon feels the need to want us in Ep 1 they aren't related. Even assuming everyone else is an accomplice and so doesn't say it because they're covering it up and that Battler saw Kanon for a too short of a time there's always still Erika. She should have noticed but... no.
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Old 2014-01-02, 11:10   Link #33795
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The problem is that when you pick up a gun you do it with the intention to use it either to attack or to defend yourself. Of course you might not be able to act upon that intention.
Here I have to disagree with you, there are several situations where a gun also has a purely symbolic value, without any intentions to ever use it. Soldiers in most European countries for example are taught to rely on the symbolic power of the gun and the respect it instills in people, so that a conflict doesn't even happen.

This case is slightly similar I'd say. Though the parents don't necessarily have the conscious idea to hurt each other, the mere existence of 4 guns in their direct proximity forces them to grab them.
If they just lie around, everybody could catch them at any point. Despite them, there is also a woman in the room who just said that she brought the guns here with the intention of murdering them. They also do not completely trust the other branch-families, as established throughout the story, and there is a chance of somebody barging in on them (other servants) and grabbing the guns.

Carrying a gun levels the situation more then just having them lie around. In a normal situation, every family having one gun actually lowers the chances of them being used. If you shoot the person without a gun, the gun-carrying spouse would immediately think of avenging their lost partner. If you threaten the person with a gun, you are in a duel-situation in which you could be killed yourself.
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Old 2014-01-02, 11:30   Link #33796
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I also add I would have apprecciated people commenting on how Kanon and Shannon look similar. They have the same face yet no one notices/mentions that despite being related they look at least similar? Not even Erika with her photographic memory?

Had we at least been left in the belief they were related I could have swallowed it as being waved off due to their family ties but Shannon feels the need to want us in Ep 1 they aren't related. Even assuming everyone else is an accomplice and so doesn't say it because they're covering it up and that Battler saw Kanon for a too short of a time there's always still Erika. She should have noticed but... no.
Well, if we start about character's looks, we run into the old "No mention of Jessica when it's pointed out Beatrice is blond". That Shannon and Kanon have similar facial structure really seemed like another meta hint for us readers, ala placeholder theory, if that at all.
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Old 2014-01-02, 15:06   Link #33797
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Well, if we start about character's looks, we run into the old "No mention of Jessica when it's pointed out Beatrice is blond". That Shannon and Kanon have similar facial structure really seemed like another meta hint for us readers, ala placeholder theory, if that at all.
The whole Jessica is blond like Beatrice is suspected to be... how to call it, a not realistical color scheme as it's assumed that Jessica actually is dark haired, same as Battler and Ange and Kyrie and Rosa and so on and colour was added purely for... let's call it visual value. Especially considering there's no mention of Jessica being really blond as far as I can remember (there's mention of Erika's hair being blue though so I don't know where this carries us).

But even if Jessica were to be blonde like Beatrice the real Beatrice might be carrying a wig or be also blonde. If blonde is possible then it's likely not a colour that is exclusive to Jessica.
Facial features are a bit more complicate as it gets a lot more uncommon to find 2 unrelated beings with exactly the same face. Unless we go and assume Kanon wears some serious make up in order to make his kin, his nose, his ears, his eyes, his lips, his cheekbones, his forehead different enough from Shannon that seeing him one wouldn't feel compelled to say: dear good, this boy looks like your long lost twin, are you sure you aren't related?

Same hair colour can ring a bell but doesn't produce the same reaction as same face.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Here I have to disagree with you, there are several situations where a gun also has a purely symbolic value, without any intentions to ever use it. Soldiers in most European countries for example are taught to rely on the symbolic power of the gun and the respect it instills in people, so that a conflict doesn't even happen.
While in other cases it can have a symbolic value, this doesn't seem to apply here. We've 4 normal adults all pretty angry with each other. 3 women and a man get the guns while they're arguing. Although they might not consciously think to kill each other, they didn't exactly had pacific intentions.
They want to force each other to accept something so, at best, they took the gun for threatening effect and a person with a gun instil more fear than respect, expecially when he's not a policeman there to protect you but a siblin that wants to force you to let go of something you think you deserve.

Eva and Krauss even got violent in their discussion.

Of course it can be that... let's say Rosa, took the gun with the purpose to defend herself but didn't aimed to use the gun, just to threaten people with it same as she did in Ep 2 (or as Natsuhi did in Ep 1), to discourage them from attacking her as she has a gun and can defend herself with it which makes sense as we're never told Rosa has some fighter technique like Eva or Krauss.

But still, if she wants the gun threat to be effective she has to point it and act as if she's ready to use it, expecially since Krauss already has one gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
This case is slightly similar I'd say. Though the parents don't necessarily have the conscious idea to hurt each other, the mere existence of 4 guns in their direct proximity forces them to grab them.
If they just lie around, everybody could catch them at any point.
If they fear someone will use them they feel threatened.

Now the adults are split in 2 groups: Krauss and Natsuhi, which have 1 gun, and Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Rudolf and Kyrie, which have three guns.

Now that the opposite group has from 1 to 3 guns they're prone to feel even more threatened, not less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Despite them, there is also a woman in the room who just said that she brought the guns here with the intention of murdering them.
No one seems to remember about Beatrice who's completely ignored so it's hard to think they took the guns in fear she would get up and grab them.

It seems weird while they were arguing they suddently remembered Beatrice could get up, grab the guns (that she basically handed them) and kill them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
They also do not completely trust the other branch-families, as established throughout the story, and there is a chance of somebody barging in on them (other servants) and grabbing the guns.
They took the guns while in an argument not when they had apparently remembered someone can barge in and threaten them from outside.

The scene should have been constructed differently for me to believe they did it in fear of someone barging inside or Beatrice.

And at the moment, although likely Rosa, Rudolf/Kyrie and Eva/Hideyoshi don't trust each other much, they have a common "enemy", Krauss/Natsuhi.

Once they had brought him down they would probably worry about each other but first there's to get rid of him one way or another (and by getting rid of him I don't mean to kill him, persuasion or coercion in complying with their requests would work just fine as long as Krauss steps down from the role of common enemy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Carrying a gun levels the situation more then just having them lie around. In a normal situation, every family having one gun actually lowers the chances of them being used. If you shoot the person without a gun, the gun-carrying spouse would immediately think of avenging their lost partner. If you threaten the person with a gun, you are in a duel-situation in which you could be killed yourself.
This if they were to be in a situation of all against all. Actually it's 5 people and 3 guns against 2 people and 1 gun. Krauss and Natsuhi are doomed to lose.
Krauss can't keep under threat of fire all the siblings and protect Natsuhi at the same time.

Also a bit of psycological look in the guys:

Eva is furious. She's probably not the murdering-on-purpose type but she evidently would like to kick Krauss from there to Alaska. She really wants the upper hand so she's likely prone to try and use a gun with a threatening purpose... though maybe she doesn't aim to shoot with it.

Rosa wants only what she deems fair. While she's not the type that would kill she's also the one who likes to have the upper hand and brag about it. A gun gives her power. It would be logical to expect she joins Eva in threatening Krauss with a gun.

Kyrie is the rational one. She should have understood that by shooting Krauss they would have gotten less gold than what planned but maybe things went out of hands before she could do something. Still she could have considered either forcing Krauss to cooperate by using Natsuhi as an hostage or by also joining Eva in threatening Krauss.

Krauss is the one in the worst position as his only ally is Natsuhi, who's weaponless and powerless, while his adversaries have 3 guns. Regardless of why he took one gun now he's in a situation in which he should use it to strenghten his defence. If he goes and try to physically attack Eva, as he's a man and a strong one and also has a gun, Eva or Kyrie or Rosa will feel even more threatened and shoot at him.

Basically the guns generate a stalemate only when they're fairly distributed and no one moves. As they are they should generate more tension and fear.

Said all this: ACCORDING TO RYUKISHI THE ADULTS MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN THE GUNS TO SWAT FLIES FOR ALL WE KNOW AS NO REAL REASON IS GIVEN FOR THEM TO GRAB THE GUNS APART THAT JUST BY BEING THERE THE GUNS HAD TURNED THEIR HEART TO VIOLENCE.

Only, considering how the scene is presented and the fact that it's said their hearts had been turned to violence and how they were arguing and angry and greeding THE FACT THEY TOOK THE GUNS TO ME DOESN'T SEEM TO IMPLY THEY WERE WORRIED BEATRICE OR SOMEONE ELSE WOULD ATTACK THEM OR THAT THEY JUST PLANNED TO REMOVE THE GUNS FOR ANY OTHER SAFETY MEASURE THAT ISN'T DEFENDING THEMSELVES FROM GUN'S THREAT FROM THE OPPOSITE GROUP OR THREATENING IT.
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Old 2014-01-02, 22:30   Link #33798
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Sameface would definitely produce a reaction if you saw two people side-by-side, but if you only ever saw them apart and they always wore different facial expressions it might not be all that noticable. Some people do have pretty unremarkable faces, and I've seen plays that pull off tricks like this.

Erika probably didn't care much about character appearances due to Knox's 10th. In episode 5 she was also convinced she'd already found her culprit and didn't need to examine anyone else.
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Old 2014-01-03, 06:43   Link #33799
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So, I went through EP4 again, with special concentration on Battler's investigation of the island at the very end and I still think that there is still a little bit more in there...at least I severely hope so...

So, to go through it again:
Spoiler for Time Chart:


So, there are a few questions that ring weird, even still in the light of current revelations...and could this have been a hint at what Battler might have actually experienced on the island? Or at least at jumbled memory of what Tohya remembers.
Sure, this Episode is still pretty much geared towards a Yasu-culprit solution, or at least solvable by it...but still, something seems off, even more off than in EP3.

At least from Erika's theories in the EP8 manga we know that the most likely place to call from on the island when not wanting to be found is the gold room. And since we can be sure that there is no trapdoor in the dining hall, it is most likely that people just moved there, while Gohda and Kumasawa went over to the children.
Why did Gohda and Kumasawa need to be put into the garden shed, especially with them holding the key?
Why were the children brought out separately and did Jessica and George really fight the opponents we saw or actually each other?
Why did Jessica call Battler if not to lead him on track of the illusion and especially right before Kyrie and THEN Beatrice would call him?

Also, my biggest question is: Why does Kanon die first?
Wouldn't this in the strange connectivity thing imply that Jessica died first as well? Would this be an explanation as to why George was shot?
And why does he only find Maria on the morning of the 5th (at least in the manga)? Was anybody besides George even dead at this point?

The biggest question marks in terms of what the current EP8 solution of Prime gives me are actually not related to Kyrie's or Rudolph's motive, those can be explained by or at least reasoned towards, even though some people might be more ready to accept them then others. It is rather that it gives no to answer to two pressing points that have been brought up in EP3 and 4 actually:
  • What happens to Battler?
  • How does Eva get the ring of headship?
Kyrie apparently makes no attempt to claim the ring, yet it still ended up on Ange's finger through Eva, so she must have taken it somehow. Not only that, she even appears to know that the ring also connects her to the name of Beatrice.

And that brings me to something else that I noticed while translating the Red and Blue Truths from the EP8 manga. Ushiromiya Eva's diary, The Book of the Single Truth, contains the truth of Rokkenjima from October 4th to 5th. But EP8 tells us that Battler escaped on the early morning of the 6th, Eva was found on the 6th...basically a whole few hours are still up in the air.
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Old 2014-01-03, 08:53   Link #33800
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
So, I went through EP4 again, with special concentration on Battler's investigation of the island at the very end and I still think that there is still a little bit more in there...at least I severely hope so...

So, to go through it again:
Spoiler for Time Chart:


So, there are a few questions that ring weird, even still in the light of current revelations...and could this have been a hint at what Battler might have actually experienced on the island? Or at least at jumbled memory of what Tohya remembers.
Sure, this Episode is still pretty much geared towards a Yasu-culprit solution, or at least solvable by it...but still, something seems off, even more off than in EP3.

At least from Erika's theories in the EP8 manga we know that the most likely place to call from on the island when not wanting to be found is the gold room. And since we can be sure that there is no trapdoor in the dining hall, it is most likely that people just moved there, while Gohda and Kumasawa went over to the children.
Why did Gohda and Kumasawa need to be put into the garden shed, especially with them holding the key?
Why were the children brought out separately and did Jessica and George really fight the opponents we saw or actually each other?
Why did Jessica call Battler if not to lead him on track of the illusion and especially right before Kyrie and THEN Beatrice would call him?

Also, my biggest question is: Why does Kanon die first?
Wouldn't this in the strange connectivity thing imply that Jessica died first as well? Would this be an explanation as to why George was shot?
And why does he only find Maria on the morning of the 5th (at least in the manga)? Was anybody besides George even dead at this point?

The biggest question marks in terms of what the current EP8 solution of Prime gives me are actually not related to Kyrie's or Rudolph's motive, those can be explained by or at least reasoned towards, even though some people might be more ready to accept them then others. It is rather that it gives no to answer to two pressing points that have been brought up in EP3 and 4 actually:
  • What happens to Battler?
  • How does Eva get the ring of headship?
Kyrie apparently makes no attempt to claim the ring, yet it still ended up on Ange's finger through Eva, so she must have taken it somehow. Not only that, she even appears to know that the ring also connects her to the name of Beatrice.

And that brings me to something else that I noticed while translating the Red and Blue Truths from the EP8 manga. Ushiromiya Eva's diary, The Book of the Single Truth, contains the truth of Rokkenjima from October 4th to 5th. But EP8 tells us that Battler escaped on the early morning of the 6th, Eva was found on the 6th...basically a whole few hours are still up in the air.
Well, if we've to go by Ep 3 Battler had accused Eva of being the culprit (even though he knew she couldn't have possibly killed Nanjo as she was with him) and she ended up in shooting him.
Interesting enough in Ep 5 Eva ends up beating Battler when he tries to stop her from beating Natsuhi, whom they know is innocent.

So it's possible Eva found Battler still alive and planned to keep him as such but then he either equivocated or was in denial for his parents' role in all that mess like Ange, or simply believed after all Eva, by shooting Natsuhi started all this and accused Eva who attacked him.

Maybe she didn't outright shoot him but just kicked him in the stomach (there's a lot of emphasis put on how she's capable to defend herself) hard enough to make him faint while they were escaping. She should have finished him but didn't feel like it as Battler was technically innocent so... she abandoned him there for the bomb to finish the job. Battler wakes up though and escapes... in the wrong direction.

So Eva believes him dead and feel very guilty because while Natsuhi and Krauss were an incident and Kyrie and Rudolf were culprit, Battler was actually innocent and she abandoned him to die on her own will... though she actually doesn't know what happened to him as she hadn't seen him explode.
After all, Eva's diary so far hasn't showed us all that had happened. So it's possible Ange didn't manage to finish reading it and missed the part in which her brother was abandoned by Eva... or even read it and assumed he died but it just wasn't shown to us.
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