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Old 2014-01-03, 18:58   Link #33801
jjblue1
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Someone can help me refresh my memory?
I was going through Ep 2 and I'm unsure about a solution.
At the end, before Battler had the last argument with Rosa, he found a letter on the table.
I was thinking the trick could be the text mention various time that before leaving the room and upon returning to the room they checked the windows, to make sure they all were close but... happened to forget to lock the door (at lest it's not mentioned they closed it with the key and then had to open it with the key) allowing Shannon to enter, place the letter there and then go kill herself.

However they claim the room is a closed room so... I'm not sure if they're being dumb or if I should just suspect Rosa. After all the letter had to be on the table when she got in so she's obviously lying about not seeing it. And since we know she was bribed by Yasu it can be not only she was bribed in saying there was no letter but also in placing the letter there and then acting that way with Battler.

Suggestion anyone?

Is it an illusion of a closed room or just the illusion of a letter not being there?
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Old 2014-01-03, 19:30   Link #33802
Leafsnail
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I'm pretty sure Rosa placed it, she's clearly an accomplice.
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Old 2014-01-03, 22:23   Link #33803
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I'd say it was placed by Maria. She says herself she is the "witch's messenger", so it would be reasonable for her to give out the letters that the witch cannot place herself.

Or it was Rosa and she wanted an excuse to force Battler out, but her reactions make more sense if she is actually confused by the events from a certain point onwards...unless of course she actually still believes that it is all a game.
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Old 2014-01-04, 00:57   Link #33804
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I'm going to challenge Erika's "Battler's an Accomplice" Theory(I can't yet think of a way to challenge her Kanon Solution).


Knox's 8th:It's forbidden for the case to be solved without clues. There's never been any foreshadowing in any of the games that Battler's an accomplice

But I can show two theories to exonerate Battler from being an accomplice.

If Battler's the accomplice of the "true culprit" AKA Yasu. He would've had to know the Truth. But it's towards the end of the 5th game that Battler finally recognizes the truth, but he couldn't save Beato. Equally, in Bernkastel's 7th game, it was stated that Battler didn't make it in time. He couldn't attend the funeral.

Battler's Emotions. Whenever Beato committed a murder in the first four games, or when Eva-Beatrice committed her murders in the 3rd game, Battler was extra emotional about the crimes committed. He even went on a pseudo-intellectual tirade about how the sudden loss of someone close to you could be devastating.

Could he really be an accomplice to those crimes, and still have that same philosophical mindset? If Piece Battler wasn't Battler's piece, whose was it? Yasu's? Yasu was clearly there on Rokkenjima Prime in 1986. There was an argument previously that Yasu wishwashed who Battler was with Piece Battler, but I can't imagine a total deconstruction of Battler's philosophy.

At the very least, with my first theory I feel confident enough to say this in Red:

Ushiromiya Battler only understands Yasu on the 2nd day in Rokkenjima Prime
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Old 2014-01-04, 05:29   Link #33805
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I'm going to challenge Erika's "Battler's an Accomplice" Theory(I can't yet think of a way to challenge her Kanon Solution).


Knox's 8th:It's forbidden for the case to be solved without clues. There's never been any foreshadowing in any of the games that Battler's an accomplice

But I can show two theories to exonerate Battler from being an accomplice.

If Battler's the accomplice of the "true culprit" AKA Yasu. He would've had to know the Truth. But it's towards the end of the 5th game that Battler finally recognizes the truth, but he couldn't save Beato. Equally, in Bernkastel's 7th game, it was stated that Battler didn't make it in time. He couldn't attend the funeral.

Battler's Emotions. Whenever Beato committed a murder in the first four games, or when Eva-Beatrice committed her murders in the 3rd game, Battler was extra emotional about the crimes committed. He even went on a pseudo-intellectual tirade about how the sudden loss of someone close to you could be devastating.

Could he really be an accomplice to those crimes, and still have that same philosophical mindset? If Piece Battler wasn't Battler's piece, whose was it? Yasu's? Yasu was clearly there on Rokkenjima Prime in 1986. There was an argument previously that Yasu wishwashed who Battler was with Piece Battler, but I can't imagine a total deconstruction of Battler's philosophy.

At the very least, with my first theory I feel confident enough to say this in Red:

Ushiromiya Battler only understands Yasu on the 2nd day in Rokkenjima Prime
The Meta!Battler in EP1-4 could be simply a Meta-Representation of Tohya though, as he struggles with regaining the memories of the incident along with all the headaches. It does not have to be Prime!Battler's mindset
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Old 2014-01-04, 06:26   Link #33806
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
The Meta!Battler in EP1-4 could be simply a Meta-Representation of Tohya though, as he struggles with regaining the memories of the incident along with all the headaches. It does not have to be Prime!Battler's mindset
This is generally true, my second theory of Battler=Couldn't be culprit/accomplice due to philosophical inconsistencies is an admittedly weaker theory than the first theory but this is just a back bone in case the first falls apart.

But it generally can't, unless as others have suggested, Erika's Solution rewrites the entire story. But I'm not going to buy that.

Prime Battler only recognized the truth, at best midway through the events in Prime. And if he helped Yasu with anything, it would be to the "clean up" she confessed to, as well as leaving Rokkenjima.

But Prime Battler IMO wasn't an accomplice to the crimes Yasu committed.

And as long as Erika can reinterpret things, I'll do the same for the 5th Game's murders.

Not only weren't any of the victims dead, they weren't even corpses. This is the only logical explanation to the Fifth Game: All of the Victims played dead, and then were moved elsewhere by the Servants(namely Genji, Shannon and Kanon) who all had Master Keys and could pretty much move the 'victims' anywhere while they were still alive.

The only Red Proclamation of their death was through Virgilia and at that, it was in the Meta World. Not necessarily the game board of the 5th game.

Only the Servants could have been "accomplices" of this fake murder prank. Battler had nothing to do with it.(All Battler did, was suggest they play the game to begin with. But that was 5th game only. In Prime, Yasu did it so that Battler would remember)
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Old 2014-01-04, 07:12   Link #33807
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'd say it was placed by Maria. She says herself she is the "witch's messenger", so it would be reasonable for her to give out the letters that the witch cannot place herself.

Or it was Rosa and she wanted an excuse to force Battler out, but her reactions make more sense if she is actually confused by the events from a certain point onwards...unless of course she actually still believes that it is all a game.
I don't think Maria is capable of deliberate deception though. Her honesty is strongly stressed in episode one, and her testimony is generally 'true' from her perspective.

e: it would also be a lot easier for an adult to trick a young child.
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Old 2014-01-04, 07:22   Link #33808
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I don't think Maria is capable of deliberate deception though. Her honesty is strongly stressed in episode one, and her testimony is generally 'true' from her perspective.

e: it would also be a lot easier for an adult to trick a young child.
All the more reason why it's possible. Don't you think if an adult handed her a letter saying it was from Beatrice, that she'd listen and follow directions?

Maria's childlike honesty is what makes it easy to make her an Unwilling Accomplice
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Old 2014-01-04, 12:36   Link #33809
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Maria's childlike honesty is what makes it easy to make her an Unwilling Accomplice
But EP4 makes it pretty clear on the other hand that this is rather naivety, not really honesty. She is very capable of lying, see her "But Kyrie did tell you that it's witches, didn't she?", as well as playacting when she is handling the phone conversations.

I also suppose that the scene where she asks Beatrice for the magic to punish and kill Rosa, is supposed to be the point where she becomes Beatrice's official accomplice in the plot that is being planned.
Maria also mentions in EP4 that only the bad mama, the witch, would die and then only the good mama would revive in the Golden Land. It all seems like Maria is very much aware of what is going on and just learned how to appear innocent and sweet.

Quote:
Prime Battler only recognized the truth, at best midway through the events in Prime. And if he helped Yasu with anything, it would be to the "clean up" she confessed to, as well as leaving Rokkenjima.

But Prime Battler IMO wasn't an accomplice to the crimes Yasu committed.
We don't know when Battler exactly realized things, but I would agree that it was likely at a point where it was already too late. If we see the end of EP5 not only as a mirror of Tohya's state, but also as an insight into what happened between them on the island, then Battler didn't realize anything while Beato/Yasu was still alive.

But I don't know if you payed attention to the last few pages, but yes, Prime Battler was likely no accomplice in crime to Yasu...because Yasu is apparently not the one doing the killings.
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Old 2014-01-04, 13:47   Link #33810
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She'll certainly follow instructions from Beatrice, but her speech is consistently truthful from her perspective. She believes in Beatrice's resurrection ceremony, so of course she thinks Kyrie told Battler about witches.
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Old 2014-01-04, 14:46   Link #33811
jjblue1
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I think the problem with Maria is she willingly deceives herself to the point she believes in her own deception.
She's like a child who's at the brink of the age in which they stop believing in Santa Claus because other children tell him it's not true but hadn't quite gotten there yet.
She knows Sakutarou is just a puppet and she uses tricks to make him talk but she refuses to believe it and suffers if someone make her face a relity she's technically aware of (otherwise she wouldn't speak for him, she would hear him speaking in her mind) but that she denies.

In a way when Ange tosses herself down of a building she's the ultimate form of that denial.
She wants to rewrite the truth with an Eva-culprit theory she knows being false because she can't accept the truth.

So Maria is not really naive or innocent... she's more... self-guillible?
She embraces wholeheartedly whatever theory might work to make her life better.
She believes because she wants to, not because she can't realize it's false... but at the same time she doesn't do it with the intentional purpose to deceive others.
She's naive as she seems to think that just by believing in something it'll become true.

So if she insists it's Beatrice that gave her the letter than somehow the person who gave her the letter will become Beatrice and she hadn't lied.

She's also similar to children who close their eyes and believe that, since they can't see, the others can't see them as well.

Also I think that in Ep 3, when Rosa was killed, the scene was constructed to represent the fact she realized 'Beatrice' had killed her mother for real and that there will not be a magical resurrection or something. That's probably why Beatrice had to kill her even if to part the two who're close it would have been enough to just kill Rosa; because Maria was going to have a moment in which she would face the truth and not be swayed by what she wished to be the truth. She would tell that Shannon or Kanon, claiming to be possessed by Beatrice, killed Mama.

It's similar to the ending of Ep 2 in which she faces the fact there's no a good mama and a bad witch but just Rosa. Personally I think it's a pity that after Ep 3 her growth wasn't explored and she returned being the child who believes blindly in Beatrice and is unable to face the truth.

Even Ep 6 sort of bypassed this. Although she proves some inner strenght in facing Erika she insisted on her witch version. True, she pranked Erika but this doesn't mean to deny that Beatrice tricked her, only to search for another way to get even with Erika.


As for Battler I'll say in Ep 5 Battler is an accomplice only for something 'minor' like tricking Natsuhi. He doesn't know people are being killed for real. Probably if Ep 5 were to continue he'll confess he and his parents pranked her then they'll realize people is really dead and chaos would ensue, giving Yasu the chance to kill 5 more people.
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Old 2014-01-05, 03:39   Link #33812
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'd say it was placed by Maria. She says herself she is the "witch's messenger", so it would be reasonable for her to give out the letters that the witch cannot place herself.

Or it was Rosa and she wanted an excuse to force Battler out, but her reactions make more sense if she is actually confused by the events from a certain point onwards...unless of course she actually still believes that it is all a game.
I'd say I think she does, considering how forceful she was when pulling Battler away from Shannon's corpse. I think she was afraid he would find out if he actually touched her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
As for Battler I'll say in Ep 5 Battler is an accomplice only for something 'minor' like tricking Natsuhi. He doesn't know people are being killed for real. Probably if Ep 5 were to continue he'll confess he and his parents pranked her then they'll realize people is really dead and chaos would ensue, giving Yasu the chance to kill 5 more people.
I don't remember ep 5 very well, so feel free to fill me in, but why does Battler have to be an accomplice? Couldn't Yasu have made those calls? I know they're using his voice in the PS3 version, but I thought it was just to confused.
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Old 2014-01-05, 10:13   Link #33813
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
I don't remember ep 5 very well, so feel free to fill me in, but why does Battler have to be an accomplice? Couldn't Yasu have made those calls? I know they're using his voice in the PS3 version, but I thought it was just to confused.
Ignoring Battler's participation in the first twilight, at least one of the calls couldn't have been made by Yasu because Natsuhi heard Kanon on the other side of her door while she was on the phone. Another call happened while Yasu and Battler were demonstrably in the same room, so there's no way Battler didn't at least know about it.
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Old 2014-01-05, 10:18   Link #33814
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
I don't remember ep 5 very well, so feel free to fill me in, but why does Battler have to be an accomplice? Couldn't Yasu have made those calls? I know they're using his voice in the PS3 version, but I thought it was just to confused.
The manga confirmed Yasu did make some of the calls if not all of them.
Battler is an accomplice because:
- he was probably told how to find the gold and didn't solve the epitaph (although this is only vaguely implied)
- he pretended the ring of the head was delivered magically when actually either Kanon or Shannon handed it to the adults
- he pretended George and Co were dead when he knows they're alive from when he screamed to when they left the room and, especially, when Erika entered in the room
- he pretended Hideyoshi too died when they set up his death so as to trick Natsuhi.
- he likely know Krauss had been 'kidnapped' and held somewhere

At the same time though Battler doesn't know people, after faking their own death were killed. He also likely doesn't know it's Shannon/Kanon who's doing the killing and who's the mastermind of the plan but most probably think they're just accomplices in the same way as he is.

So although with his actions he actually helps Yasu in her plans, he had no idea of what he's exactly helping her to do.
He also isn't very good at thinking at the consequences of his actions, although he's usually doesn't mean bad. I think he honestly starts feeling guilty about what Natsuhi is going thought and he wasn't acting out of greed.

More likely he was told that Natsuhi was hiding Kinzo's death and this was wrong and since he agreed on this he wanted her to confess about it thinking that if pressured Natsuhi would have admitted she'd done wrong.
He probably had no idea things would turn so ugly, let alone that people would die for real.
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Old 2014-01-09, 14:54   Link #33815
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I've been spending a bit of time on trying to make a floor plan of the mansion. At this point, the plan is still very much a work in progress, but I'd like to post the rough version of the ground floor plan to see if people think it looks right before I go on to make a final version. Any glaring errors there, or comments or suggestions about things that ought to be done with the plan?

Spoiler for Rough ground floor plan:



Spoiler for notes about the layout, cut for space:

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2014-01-10 at 04:53.
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Old 2014-01-10, 17:45   Link #33816
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Hi guys,

Time for that occasional lurker post from me.

I was wondering what your interpretations of the "red guts scene" was? Specifically the bit where Beatrice was asking why 'Father' was making her wear the dress (If I recall correctly).

I once thought it may have been the part where Kinzo would have the epitaph painting made using her as a model, assuming this Beatrice is Yasu. On the other hand, the red guts scene portrays its recipients in a slightly less sympathetic light (some might dispute even this), which would make that scene inconsistent.

P.S. I look forward to Renall's bolded-bullet-pointed paragraphs; If he would be so kind, they are always a great read.
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Old 2014-01-10, 18:05   Link #33817
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I thought it was Beatrice II in that scene - Yasu doesn't think of Kinzo as her father, and she would probably understand the meaning of the dress since she knows about the painting.

It's less sympathetic because it's directly confronting the fact that Kinzo forced Beatrice-II to play the part of his lost lover. It's a part of the story that the narrative seems to carefully avoid otherwise, other than the vague scene in Banquet.
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Old 2014-01-10, 21:18   Link #33818
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
Hi guys,

Time for that occasional lurker post from me.

I was wondering what your interpretations of the "red guts scene" was? Specifically the bit where Beatrice was asking why 'Father' was making her wear the dress (If I recall correctly).

I once thought it may have been the part where Kinzo would have the epitaph painting made using her as a model, assuming this Beatrice is Yasu. On the other hand, the red guts scene portrays its recipients in a slightly less sympathetic light (some might dispute even this), which would make that scene inconsistent.

P.S. I look forward to Renall's bolded-bullet-pointed paragraphs; If he would be so kind, they are always a great read.

Hum... no.
The bits in the red guts scene were

Quote:
"S, steal the Italians' gold, you say? You coward, Ushiromiya! And you call yourself a soldier of the Empire?!!"

"......F, Father......? I, I do love and respect you, Father...... B, but, ...your feelings are something I, ummm......"

"Why...?!! Why did you save me?! Why didn't you let me die?! Because of that terrible injury, ......I've been forced to live in a body like this!! I never wanted to live in a body like this!! This body that isn't even capable of love......!! What's...what's the point in living like that?! This isn't a human's life...!! It's like being furniture!!"
"That's right, I'm...furniture...!! Furniture...!! Why......why didn't you let me die back then?!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh......!!!"
The first refers to Kinzo being the one who thought about stealing the gold and not Yamamoto and possibly being the mastermind behind the tragedy.

The second refers to Kuwadorian Beatrice trying to tell Kinzo she loves him like a father and not like a man, implying that by making her pregnant Kinzo might have forced himself on her

The third refers to Yasu likely after Kinzo died, when she learnt the truth about what had happened to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I've been spending a bit of time on trying to make a floor plan of the mansion. At this point, the plan is still very much a work in progress, but I'd like to post the rough version of the ground floor plan to see if people think it looks right before I go on to make a final version. Any glaring errors there, or comments or suggestions about things that ought to be done with the plan?

Spoiler for Rough ground floor plan:



Spoiler for notes about the layout, cut for space:
I love your idea to make a map for the house. I would have loved if the game had one.
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Old 2014-01-10, 22:26   Link #33819
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
Hi guys,

Time for that occasional lurker post from me.

I was wondering what your interpretations of the "red guts scene" was? Specifically the bit where Beatrice was asking why 'Father' was making her wear the dress (If I recall correctly).
Yasu probably heard the same stories about Kinzo's meeting with Beatrice I and treatment of Beatrice II that Will got during the episode, but she had no way of knowing whether those stories were true or not. What we got in the "red guts scene" are probably her most negative interpretation of what really happened. I think that her outburst about being furniture is kind of the same thing; she says that her deformity means she can't be loved, but that's actually because she doesn't trust other people not to reject her when they find out what's wrong with her.

So ultimately, I think the guts were telling us, "this is the part of Yasu's heart that was at the root of everything." She has a habit of assuming the worst of people in the absence of evidence. Dlanor even says as much in Our Confession when she's talking to Beatrice about whether to publish the story.
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Old 2014-01-11, 08:31   Link #33820
GreyZone
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That brings up an interesting point, escpacially for EP1-2. While Beatrice usually assumes the worst of people, Battler assumes the best of people. That is why Battler did not "understand" the game and Beatrice failed to deliver her message to him in EP1-4. She only started to make the game easier from EP3 on, which we know are not message bottles originally.
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