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Old 2014-01-11, 14:49   Link #33821
Uberzaki
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Oops, looks like I messed up then. I should have checked that chapter. I felt very smart for figuring that out, but I totally botched it.
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Old 2014-01-11, 19:49   Link #33822
Leafsnail
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I've come up with a new interpretation after finally reading Our Confession.

Yasu spent ages meticulously planning her murders. She convinced herself on a conscious level that the Ushiromiya family deserved it, that it was the only way she could truly express her feelings. She wrote her stories and set up everything so she'd be ready for the big day.

Only the thing is, Yasu wasn't a murderer. She was an author and a fantasist. Her stories contain numerous instances of "and then they could find out and stop me", but instead of trying to think up countermeasures she simply kept on writing assuming that she got away with it. That's because, deep down, she didn't want to kill anyone. I'd go further, in fact - even if no-one had stopped her, she probably would have bailed on her plan the moment it called for her to murder someone. This is why we're meant to feel sympathy for her even though she plotted the killings.

On the day of the incident, Yasu called Kyrie and Rudolf into the gold room. Much like in Our Confession, she intended to use them as accomplices. Only it didn't work - Kyrie saw straight through her and realized they could beat her simply by solving the epitaph and charging the gold room. This is why Kyrie was so sure the bomb would work, incidentally - Yasu and Genji told her about it earlier, and pointed to the shrine as evidence. Yasu also talked about the exit in Our Confession, so Kyrie would have known how to escape.

Incidentally, it's interesting that Genji wasn't down there. It's possible that he said "fuck off you're crazy" to Yasu when she explained that she planned to actually kill people for real, thus ruining Yasu's plan before she even started it. When the parents burst into the gold room she therefore simply gave up.

From then on it's basically the standard ep7 Tea Party theory. It's not entirely clear why Kyrie would let Yasu live, but it might have been because she wanted to keep her son's girlfriend alive. She couldn't let Battler get away with abandoning her, afterall.
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Old 2014-01-11, 20:25   Link #33823
Jaden
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That's viable and all, but it ends up putting the responsibility on Yasu still. To get accomplices, she can simply throw money and gold at them. The adults fall in line easily. Even if they solve the epitaph and find the gold room...why would Yasu tell them about the bomb? She isn't stupid. She must know that it can easily end up killing everyone, including the people she loves.

The question that led myself and others to theorize is: If Yasu didn't mean to really kill anyone, why did she not carry out her game in a more safe manner, without using the bomb? It seems like an unnecessary huge risk.
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Old 2014-01-11, 21:49   Link #33824
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Because, on a conscious level, she was fully intending to kill everyone. She'd made all the preparations required to do it. But the fact was that her heart wasn't in it and her plan would never have worked anyway because the key accomplice wasn't prepared to murder his best friend's family.

I guess she had to tell everyone about the bomb so that it could be deactivated, but I think she'd realized by that point that she'd doomed everyone anyway.
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Old 2014-01-11, 23:10   Link #33825
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
That brings up an interesting point, escpacially for EP1-2. While Beatrice usually assumes the worst of people, Battler assumes the best of people. That is why Battler did not "understand" the game and Beatrice failed to deliver her message to him in EP1-4. She only started to make the game easier from EP3 on, which we know are not message bottles originally.
Yes, even when Battler made the right theory then he would deny it on the point that 'that person' wouldn't have done something so horrible. For Battler they're all nice guys... and when he has to accuse someone he ends up accusing himself (or Eva but because they placed her under a giant arrow that said "culprit").

It's also interesting how Beatrice sees why Battler left his home. To her it's because he wanted his father all for himself and didn't want to share him with an unknown woman but for Battler it's all because his father had betrayed his mother... and admits he's still having troubles forgiving him even if probably his mother would have done it already.

On a sidenote... I was re-reading EP 4. I remembered people said a hint that Amakusa was involved was the fact that Eva said 'cool' in English before dying... but actually Amakusa didn't use English through all Ep 4 although in the translation he says 'cool' but I assume he said in in Japanese though, since it isn't noted as English.

The only ones that use English are Battler, Erika, Ange and Beatrice... and considering Ange might not have shoot to Battler, Erika or Beatrice... can it be she killed the bad witch that lived in her mind and therefore herself?

Also...

am I the only one who find these lines disturbing?

Quote:
"Nothing wrong with that, ri~ght?! That guy's so much like a younger you that it makes my heart race. Don't worry, I won't cheat on yooooou. This will be the only time I'll be alone with him. ......I'm always alone with you in bed, riiight...? But no more tying me to the bed with a collar, alright? Kuhhyahhahhahahahahaha...!!!"
"Well then, Battleer! I, the Golden Witch Beatrice, will be running your test myself! As for the place...yes. At the front entrance to this mansion! Battleer, make sure you try seriously hard for the test to become the next head, okaay? ......I mean, Kinzo's practically dead on his feet. If you become the next head, you'll be the new owner of everything on this island. ......If it's you, ......I wouldn't mind becoming all yours, see......? Just like Kinzo did, ......control me, okay......? Kuhhihihihihihihihi, uhhyahhahhahahahahahaha!"
Quote:
"Scary, scaary... But it's not like I mind being controlled by violence, you see? Grab onto my head! Make my face twist in pain, tear me apart like a hawk does with its talons to its prey, scratch at me and violate me...!!
Aaah, remind me of Kinzo in his younger days once more...!! That single time in my thousand year life! Remind me of that day I was taught the joy of being controlled, surrendering and being reduced to furniture!! Uhyaaahhyahhyahhyahhya!!"
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I've come up with a new interpretation after finally reading Our Confession.

Yasu spent ages meticulously planning her murders. She convinced herself on a conscious level that the Ushiromiya family deserved it, that it was the only way she could truly express her feelings. She wrote her stories and set up everything so she'd be ready for the big day.

Only the thing is, Yasu wasn't a murderer. She was an author and a fantasist. Her stories contain numerous instances of "and then they could find out and stop me", but instead of trying to think up countermeasures she simply kept on writing assuming that she got away with it. That's because, deep down, she didn't want to kill anyone. I'd go further, in fact - even if no-one had stopped her, she probably would have bailed on her plan the moment it called for her to murder someone. This is why we're meant to feel sympathy for her even though she plotted the killings.

On the day of the incident, Yasu called Kyrie and Rudolf into the gold room. Much like in Our Confession, she intended to use them as accomplices. Only it didn't work - Kyrie saw straight through her and realized they could beat her simply by solving the epitaph and charging the gold room. This is why Kyrie was so sure the bomb would work, incidentally - Yasu and Genji told her about it earlier, and pointed to the shrine as evidence. Yasu also talked about the exit in Our Confession, so Kyrie would have known how to escape.

Incidentally, it's interesting that Genji wasn't down there. It's possible that he said "fuck off you're crazy" to Yasu when she explained that she planned to actually kill people for real, thus ruining Yasu's plan before she even started it. When the parents burst into the gold room she therefore simply gave up.

From then on it's basically the standard ep7 Tea Party theory. It's not entirely clear why Kyrie would let Yasu live, but it might have been because she wanted to keep her son's girlfriend alive. She couldn't let Battler get away with abandoning her, afterall.
Well, I fear for the part on how the murders started that Eva's diary in the manga version already answered that.

But yes, I also think Yasu wanted to kill everyone, planned to kill everyone but likely wouldn't have the guts to kill everyone, nor her plan would work as smoothly as in her books unless she's blessed with incredible good luck.

In her books basically, to make things work she also need the blind loyalty of Genji and Nanjo. Nanjo can be bribed (he has a sick grandchild) but Genji... I don't know... did she bribed it using his guilt?

Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-01-11 at 23:26.
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Old 2014-01-12, 07:24   Link #33826
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Nanjo can be bribed and threatened fairly easily - his sick grandchild is strong leverage since he feels he has to get back alive to save her. In the course of the episodes he does generally realize the murders are real, but is too scared to tell anyone about his role in the plot (think back to his conversation with Genji after the ep1 first twilight, for instance).

As far as I can tell Yasu basically assumed Genji was a robot: that he would follow any instructions from the Ushiromiya head. That's why he was called furniture in the stories. Only we know this isn't true - Genji went behind Kinzo's back on the whole Yasu thing. On some level Yasu may have realized this too, and that since Genji was loyal to the family he would actually be almost impossible to convince.
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Old 2014-01-12, 11:31   Link #33827
UsagiTenpura
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Oddly enough its RGD that cleared my mind about a lot of things concerning Umineko and Higurashi, I believe I understand most things of it now, and that Rose Guns Days probably explains more clearly the "needed" mindset to reach the solution then either Naku Koro Ni stories.
Well here's an example I guess. The murders on Rokkenjima, all of them, goes back to a single thing : By her own hands, Yasu destroyed her relation with them. We're not talking about murders. Even the fact that she's responsible for destroying the relations can be seen as subjective, but these are the conditions. They "leave the game board" and "it's Beatrice's fault", anything beyond that is entirely beyond the point. This is why even our confession didn't get into details about the why dunnit or exact M.O beind used in a certain "death room". It's something that she didn't have a clear idea about at first, but always knew, from the moment she tried to solve the Epitaph, that it wouldn't end anywhere good, and in the two years of span from that point on she began to imagine all the paths it could lead to, and was stuck in her own puzzle, the labyrinth of her own thoughts, and fears. She knows her time is "short", represented by the bomb, and how she learned to enjoyed living while it's ticking (such as her entire relationship with George).
A lot about her can be more easily understood if you try to think of a 19 years old who was so lonely she had to befriend a 6 years old in order not to feel eternally alone. Yes everything she did to George was seriously wrong, but from her pov it's something like this or never having anything. Kanon, the development of her intelligence, always knew she was wrong, but Shannon, the development of her emotions, couldn't help herself. She does feel wrong for what she did, so wrong that she can't tell us openly, and anyway even if we get it, we're going to judge and hate her for it.
All the wrongs she did to George are nothing to her next to having solved the epitaph tho. She is entirely unable to think in term of her own personal greed ($$) as far as that goes. What Yasu "has" is not money, it's a place on Rokkenjima - not the "island" but the community - losing that is destroying her own world. That's what she inevitably sealed while solving the epitaph and intuitively knew before even starting to reason it out. She's however so absorbed in that mindset that she eventually loses the ability to see clear, simple solutions, such as talking it out with Battler.
Even tho everyone on the island did wrongs, often to her own self, she understands them rather then judge them, and desperately hoping someone could do the same thing for her. One one side she can't forgive her own self, and on the other side she does understand her own situation, so she's stuck, at the "peak of purgatory", unable to judge her own self. Waiting for someone who actually properly understands her to really judge her properly - even tho she knows it probably won't happen, because the possibility exists, it's torturing her, and she can't discard it. It's the same as how she reasoned out everything about Battler. It's shown to us as like her own escape from reality, but it's more like she can't help thinking about all the possibilities and is unable to really give up because however how small it is, there remains some where she'd be "wrong to give up". Bern and LD's relation kinda shows it. They constantly talk about boredom, of course, what else does Yasu really has to think about in her life? To her own despair, no amount of certainty will lose to the witch of miracles inside of her. She's unable to create her own "gold", to believe, by herself, in her own conclusion. She needs someone else, and she's going to submissively adopt the view of that person, like she does with Maria or George for instance. However she can't submissively adopt the view of someone when she has certainty that they are wrong. In the end she needs someone who'll be able to understand both her tricks, and the "heart" that lead to them, and then can judge her, to make her "rest in peace", at which point she'll accept whatever verdict.
So in the end she can't forgive herself, something she probably learned from the way Natsuhi treats her mistakes, and doesn't believe people can really understand her either. She doesn't trust others, because both to her and each other, she's seen weaknesses as something others will use to attack you (think of all the stuff about the adults between themselves) or to show how better they are then you (like Gohda with her, or even her original introduction to Maria).

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2014-01-12 at 12:11.
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Old 2014-01-12, 12:28   Link #33828
GoldenLand
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The interpretations where Yasu wanted to kill everyone and planned to do so (even if she wouldn't have carried through on it) might well be true. But I have to say that if they are true, it really isn't sympathetic.

Anyway, working on the assumption that Yasu did intend those things, what do people think the explanation for Battler's (or Tohya's or whoever's) change of heart about her was? If it's a matter of "I understand that she was suffering a huge amount and that though she intended to kill everyone she wouldn't have been able to follow through, even though in the end she actually did cause the deaths indirectly"...that's a bit thin.

And it's also the case that if Battler hadn't come back, people wouldn't have been killed. So it would be more like "I understand that Yasu was suffering a huge amount and that me coming back was the trigger for her deciding to murder everyone, setting up a situation with loaded guns where it would happen, which led to the murders all actually occurring even though she wouldn't really have been able to bring herself to commit the murders personally as she planned..." leading to him blaming himself and appearing to absolve her of all blame.

UsagiTenpura, could you explain a bit more about what RGD contains that made you understand Yasu better? I'm just a bit curious about it. The point about how Yasu is so lonely she just wants someone else to understand her well enough to judge her properly as a person is a good one. Though, I think that Umineko itself also managed to convey that to an extent, what with Will in ep 7 and so forth.

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2014-01-12 at 13:14.
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Old 2014-01-12, 14:16   Link #33829
GreyZone
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But Battler cannot blame himself, because he is dead. Tohya does not even consider himself to be Battler, so would he really refuse the identity of Battler but still extract all the blame? Or is this "burden" actually the reason why he refuses to adapt that identity from his memories?
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Old 2014-01-12, 15:37   Link #33830
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The interpretations where Yasu wanted to kill everyone and planned to do so (even if she wouldn't have carried through on it) might well be true. But I have to say that if they are true, it really isn't sympathetic.

Anyway, working on the assumption that Yasu did intend those things, what do people think the explanation for Battler's (or Tohya's or whoever's) change of heart about her was? If it's a matter of "I understand that she was suffering a huge amount and that though she intended to kill everyone she wouldn't have been able to follow through, even though in the end she actually did cause the deaths indirectly"...that's a bit thin.
The point is she was suffering so much she had a moment of insanity. She shattered the boundaries between her fantasy and the real world and tried to turn into truth the legend of Beatrice.

Like Ange when she screamed to the seven sisters to kill her classmates.
My understanding of Yasu is that, like Ange, in the end she wouldn't have managed to carry on her plans unless she was pushed, but at the moment she was so broken she thought she could.

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And it's also the case that if Battler hadn't come back, people wouldn't have been killed. So it would be more like "I understand that Yasu was suffering a huge amount and that me coming back was the trigger for her deciding to murder everyone, setting up a situation with loaded guns where it would happen, which led to the murders all actually occurring even though she wouldn't really have been able to bring herself to commit the murders personally as she planned..." leading to him blaming himself and appearing to absolve her of all blame.
Actually it's implied people would have likely been killed the same, as the trigger for the deaths isn't Yasu's letter but the fact that the adults, in need of money, end up solving the epitaph and then quarreling over the gold.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Nanjo can be bribed and threatened fairly easily - his sick grandchild is strong leverage since he feels he has to get back alive to save her. In the course of the episodes he does generally realize the murders are real, but is too scared to tell anyone about his role in the plot (think back to his conversation with Genji after the ep1 first twilight, for instance).

As far as I can tell Yasu basically assumed Genji was a robot: that he would follow any instructions from the Ushiromiya head. That's why he was called furniture in the stories. Only we know this isn't true - Genji went behind Kinzo's back on the whole Yasu thing. On some level Yasu may have realized this too, and that since Genji was loyal to the family he would actually be almost impossible to convince.
Yes, Nanjo can be bribed easily but Yasu should know that Genji isn't a robot as he basically snatched her from Kinzo... unless she thinks he would be so blindly loyal to her to act like a robot, support her and overlook whatever she might do.

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Yes everything she did to George was seriously wrong, but from her pov it's something like this or never having anything. Kanon, the development of her intelligence, always knew she was wrong, but Shannon, the development of her emotions, couldn't help herself. She does feel wrong for what she did, so wrong that she can't tell us openly, and anyway even if we get it, we're going to judge and hate her for it.
Well, when she begins dating George she hadn't solved the epitaph yet, as Eva meets Kinzo and George later meets Kinzo. Yasu as an overwelming need of to be loved and be accepted and, since George was interested in her, she tried to fill that emptiness with him. She likely tried to love him as she did with Battler.

It didn't work as she somehow held back her true self and kept on acting like Shannon and not like Sayo with him and, what's worse, her life went downhill.

George couldn't really help her as he didn't truly know her nor her problems and couldn't really picture them.

He's also pretty young and pretty focused on himself so he thinks that he can make her happy just by marrying her and this is all it'll take.

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All the wrongs she did to George are nothing to her next to having solved the epitaph tho. She is entirely unable to think in term of her own personal greed ($$) as far as that goes. What Yasu "has" is not money, it's a place on Rokkenjima - not the "island" but the community - losing that is destroying her own world. That's what she inevitably sealed while solving the epitaph and intuitively knew before even starting to reason it out.
I think the problem is also that Yasu doesn't feel like she belongs, she's loved.
The theme of the series, without love you can't see it, applies to her as well. She doesn't see she's loved, accepted so by losing her place in Rokkenjima and the people there she's not losing anything.

She dreams a pretty world where everyone will accept her and be nice with her, the Golden Land, but we know that such world can't possibly exist and the more she feeds her idea of such world the more the one she's in feels horrible.

She's trapped in her own delusion.

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She's however so absorbed in that mindset that she eventually loses the ability to see clear, simple solutions, such as talking it out with Battler.
Well, the problem with her is also she spent a really huge amount of time hoping someone would save her instead than trying to save herself.
Lion has the same midset in a way so Will will say to Lion he doesn't have to hope in a miracle but became a miracle.
When she's young instead than leaving on her own she hopes for Battler to come and take her away. When Battler doesn't come (and note that the first year she wasn't even ready to leave) she hopes he'll write or phone. When Battler doesn't do that she hopes someone else willc ome to save her and George enters in the picture. When things become too bad she hopes Beatrice will save her by destroying the island, killing her and giving her the chance to reincarnate as a human being... or alternatively that Battler will save her by solving the epitaph and stopping her.

In short Yasu's always there, even when she's doing something, hoping for others to save her and not really looking out for herself.

Even as MetaBeatrice... she wants Battler to solve her riddle, in a way saving her.
She changes this mentality only when Battler will be trapped in a logic error. After being more or less passive she'll find the courage to search for a solution and challenge Erika on her own, without hoping for someone else to solve things for her. And, once she'll do it, she'll have Battler support her when she'll have to give Erika another shoot.

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Even tho everyone on the island did wrongs, often to her own self, she understands them rather then judge them, and desperately hoping someone could do the same thing for her.
She understand but can't stop herself from feeling an inner rage over it. Kanon often voices the dark thoughts Shannon can't voice. Shannon tells herself she must not think such things but Kanon is there to tell us how he hates Gohda and Natsuhi and the other servants and so on.

In itself feeling too much repressed rage is dangerous. If it doesn't get vented out it can bring a person to an 'explosion' point.
Which is exactly what happens. Litterally.
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Old 2014-01-12, 16:44   Link #33831
UsagiTenpura
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UsagiTenpura, could you explain a bit more about what RGD contains that made you understand Yasu better? I'm just a bit curious about it. The point about how Yasu is so lonely she just wants someone else to understand her well enough to judge her properly as a person is a good one. Though, I think that Umineko itself also managed to convey that to an extent, what with Will in ep 7 and so forth.
It's more Ryuukishi that I got then Yasu per say. Basically we're stumbling on details rather then try to get the point, the big picture. We need to view the story through intuition instead, he makes that quite clear. In other words I can more or less tell you everything about how Ryuukishi thinks, it's not too complicated, we think too similarily in short. There's so many things I could say, like how much of a hard time we can have to properly communicate to others what it is we see, and tends to come off as a judgement, and often wrong. A large part of RGD is that in itself, it's not about what Ryuukishi believes should be done, it's simply about what he sees.
Yes I think this is one thing that is extremly important, Beatrice, or Ryuukishi, are not judges, they are observers, who's observation will come out often as judgements. What is frustrating to either of them is the lack of understanding of others (something like why can't they get it? because to us viewing things that way is as natural as it is for others to view things the way they do).

As for jjblue, you're a fairly good example of judging before trying to understand her. You're telling her what she did right and wrong, and assume negative things about her feelings toward others. That always "lecturing from your pov rather then understanding from her pov" without understanding the differences in values of facts between the two is exactly why she doesn't open up to anyone. The moment you see a fault, you jump on it, and uses it to deny the rest as "entirely wrong", this isn't going to help her, and this isn't understanding her, this is not what she's seeking and this is why she's being so secretive. Just keep in mind that all the negative opinion someone could have about her is more or less what she's telling her own self everyday. She may despise herself to an incredible amount over Maria growing up to believe in her so much and how it may not help her growing up properly. Remember she represents herself as an incredibly evil witch who plays with humans lives on a whim, it tells us a lot about her own self opinion. She doesn't need anyone to tell her she's a witch, she wants someone who can see the "rest" of her as well.

Beatrice is the same as Shannon. It's her only way, she believes, of being with Battler. Much like Ange with Battler in arc 4 who didn't reveal her name to remain with him.

Battler's logic error, I can say it with certainty right now, they never really took Erika seriously, it's more or less simply Battler's way of telling Beatrice "I'm sorry, I'm an idiot who screwed up".

I should probably add that, Beatrice is generally going to be right, like 95% of the time plus, in her predictions, but she'll be dead wrong about the remaining 5%. I know she's really afraid of George's reaction, because he proclaims high and tall that he's ready to confront the entire family to be with her, and I think this is one point where she's actually wrong. She also has a Jessica complex sorta. It's more like Jessica has the life that Yasu wants, but Jessica herself doesn't want it. It's not exactly jealousy, I think at least, because in the end by solving the epitaph she took her place and on the opposite feels like she's doing something wrong to Jessica (afraid Jessica will reject her). It's more, it was probably extremely hard to see every day the person who has everything she wanted - and arc 7 kinda shows that "everything she wanted" and in such a world she's able to be extremely close to Jessica as well.

From her pov I doubt it was that literal, but she got the feeling, from various people, that they only like her if she fits the mold they see her through. "Be Shannon" to George, "be Beatrice" to Maria, "be Kanon" to Jessica, none of the option allows her to be "herself". Is she wrong about this? Probably in the details, but in the overall form most likely not - here alone it's a common thing to say how Yasu "should be".

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2014-01-12 at 19:04.
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Old 2014-01-12, 21:39   Link #33832
jjblue1
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As for jjblue, you're a fairly good example of judging before trying to understand her. You're telling her what she did right and wrong, and assume negative things about her feelings toward others. That always "lecturing from your pov rather then understanding from her pov" without understanding the differences in values of facts between the two is exactly why she doesn't open up to anyone. The moment you see a fault, you jump on it, and uses it to deny the rest as "entirely wrong", this isn't going to help her, and this isn't understanding her, this is not what she's seeking and this is why she's being so secretive. Just keep in mind that all the negative opinion someone could have about her is more or less what she's telling her own self everyday. She may despise herself to an incredible amount over Maria growing up to believe in her so much and how it may not help her growing up properly. Remember she represents herself as an incredibly evil witch who plays with humans lives on a whim, it tells us a lot about her own self opinion. She doesn't need anyone to tell her she's a witch, she wants someone who can see the "rest" of her as well.
Can you also try not to judge me without understanding me? Maybe that's not your intention and I'm misunderstanding you but that's what it seems and it feels very annoying to be accused of doing something bad to a character when you seem to have no hesitation in doing it to me.

Also I wasn't jumping at her no more than what you were doing when you said that she was unable to see simple solutions... which for her aren't simple at all and she even explains why she can't phone him.

Pointing out that she hoped for something when instead it would have been better she had done something doesn't mean I don't understand why she didn't do it previously. And actually I was impressed by her growth from someone who waited to be saved into someone that went and saved Battler placing her own existence in the line.
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Old 2014-01-13, 03:55   Link #33833
GoldenLand
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Actually it's implied people would have likely been killed the same, as the trigger for the deaths isn't Yasu's letter but the fact that the adults, in need of money, end up solving the epitaph and then quarreling over the gold.
The information about that is a bit confused.

On the one hand, even in Lion-world the adults appear to turn on each other and cause the deaths, and a point seems to be made of that.

On the other hand, Ryukishi has said that if Battler hadn't returned to the island, there would have been a smaller incident with no murders.

And in the likely Rokkenjima Prime scenario, it looks as if Yasu had the guns ready and left in the gold room where the adults could get them, and may have told them about the clock. Even if she was saying she'd formerly planned to kill them but was now dropping her plans, she still set up a situation where things could go badly wrong in the blink of an eye. It's hard to say that she wasn't partly to blame for what happened.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The point is she was suffering so much she had a moment of insanity. She shattered the boundaries between her fantasy and the real world and tried to turn into truth the legend of Beatrice.
So Battler's change of heart would have been because he realised she was temporarily insane at the time when she planned to kill and set up the murder weapons and so on?

I don't know, it still doesn't sound entirely convincing to me. I could understand him feeling bad for her and her suffering, and him realising that she wouldn't have followed through with the murders and even that the real culprits were assorted parents. What I don't get is why he would be blaming himself for what happened. He couldn't really expect to take the blame for his childhood promise contributing to Yasu's stress and causing her to decide to murder everybody when he returned to the island. Maybe it's not so much that he was blaming himself as that he was lamenting how things could have turned out differently had Yasu been understood before her death? That would make more sense.

Granted, the facts we're working on here at the moment are ones where she never killed anyone herself. Battler's reaction isn't nearly as absurd as it would have been if she really had been the culprit.

Quote:
"Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die."

"Wh, .........whaaaaat?!?! Wh, what kind of incomprehensible thing are you saying?! Are you saying I killed everyone?! I'm a killer?!"

"It doesn't mean you carried it out directly. .........However, because you committed a sin, from an imperfection in the cogs that stretch back a full six years, a wiggle was created, ......and tonight, this many lives are lost.

You are one of the causes of this tragedy・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・・."

"......G, ......give it a rest!! I'm the cause?! Then what?! Are you saying 13 people died because I abandoned the Ushiromiya register six years ago?! Are you saying that 13 people died because I came back to the Ushiromiya family after six years?!"
If we're to believe what Beatrice says there, if it hadn't been for Battler's supposedly forgotten promise, people wouldn't have died. Not that he bears the full responsibility for what happened, but that without his contribution to it the deaths wouldn't have occurred. And Battler goes on to talk about how that's ridiculous and that obviously Beatrice was the culprit. Now, in the next ep, he has a big change of heart about her. Some of that could come from realising that Beatrice didn't do it, but the turnaround about his attitude to his own responsibility is less clear. But, maybe I'm overthinking it and Battler's response was more about other aspects of the situation.
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Old 2014-01-13, 15:33   Link #33834
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
The information about that is a bit confused.

On the one hand, even in Lion-world the adults appear to turn on each other and cause the deaths, and a point seems to be made of that.

On the other hand, Ryukishi has said that if Battler hadn't returned to the island, there would have been a smaller incident with no murders.
I remember Clair and Will saying there would be a smaller incident (without explaining if it would include someone dying or not) but honestly I can't remember Ryukishi.

Theoretically there should be infinite variants of how things can end, practically Ryukishi seemed to push forward, with the Lion's world, the idea that the siblings were in such a state it was extremely easy that a single spark would give birth to a fire that would burn all Rokkenjima... quite litterally.

Alternatively however Ryukishi's message might also be we can't really assume how things would go if something were to happen or not to happen. Will and Clair, who doesn't know that the adults can kill too, think that without Battler's return, Beatrice wouldn't start her game and therefore nothing that bad would happen.

Bern's wake up call looks cruel, as she basically told them that just by removing Beatrice as a killer they wouldn't get a happy ending, but it also push forward the idea that the world is unpredictable and just because something goes different this doesn't mean things will go better (or, I like to add, worse).

I guess the whole thing is open to all the interpretations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
And in the likely Rokkenjima Prime scenario, it looks as if Yasu had the guns ready and left in the gold room where the adults could get them, and may have told them about the clock. Even if she was saying she'd formerly planned to kill them but was now dropping her plans, she still set up a situation where things could go badly wrong in the blink of an eye. It's hard to say that she wasn't partly to blame for what happened.
Well, she surely hadn't thought of consequences but she might have misjudged the adults. If I buy a gun and tell my mom I own one I don't expect her to use it to shoot at me. Although the siblings had bad relations she didn't expect them to start killing each other.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
So Battler's change of heart would have been because he realised she was temporarily insane at the time when she planned to kill and set up the murder weapons and so on?

I don't know, it still doesn't sound entirely convincing to me. I could understand him feeling bad for her and her suffering, and him realising that she wouldn't have followed through with the murders and even that the real culprits were assorted parents. What I don't get is why he would be blaming himself for what happened. He couldn't really expect to take the blame for his childhood promise contributing to Yasu's stress and causing her to decide to murder everybody when he returned to the island. Maybe it's not so much that he was blaming himself as that he was lamenting how things could have turned out differently had Yasu been understood before her death? That would make more sense.

Granted, the facts we're working on here at the moment are ones where she never killed anyone herself. Battler's reaction isn't nearly as absurd as it would have been if she really had been the culprit.
I assume Battler is judging her in the same way he would judge Ange for wishing to kill her classmates that day. In Ep 8 VN and manga Bern asks him why he doesn't hate Beatrice (Erika also asked him that in EP 6 but there he was more vague).

Quote:
"............And what about you? ......Wasn't it the same for you, until you understood Beato's game? ......An eternal game is eternal torture. ......Have you already completely forgotten about that pain you suffered...?"
"..................There were days I did think that. ......But now, it's all been resolved. I won't complain about stuff that's in the past. I'm impartial, you might say."
"That......is the critical difference between you and me, I think. ......Your eternal torture was something you could laugh off and forget. ......Mine wasn't nearly so trivial. ......That's all there is to it."
I don't think Battler really laughed it off but that he understood how desperate Sayo was and how badly she needed him. As he cared for her he was more indulgent in his judgement of her than... let's say Eva, could be. In addition, always because he cared he probably felt sorry he couldn't help when she counted on him for help. So he blames himself.

Actually, if Battler had kept his own promise, things wouldn't have really changed much. Sayo wasn't ready to leave the island. We aren't sure if Genji would have allowed her to leave or he would have tried to keep her there with an excuse. We don't know if she would have managed to find a job and continue developing a relationship with Battler or they would have argued and never see each other again. And definitely, the truth about herself wouldn't have changed.

Regardless of Battler coming back or not, she's always Lion Ushiromiya, regardless of Battler coming back or not, in her past she was Yasu, regardless of Battler coming back or not it's hard she'll manage to change herself totally.

So... well, if Battler had come back things could have gone really well but also worse or exactly the same. But if you care for someone you always end up hoping if you'd done this or that you could have made the difference.

Ironically, Sayo's ideal world isn't the one in which Battler comes back but the one in which she's accepted as Lion and can live her life being accepted by her family and without needing him to come back to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
If we're to believe what Beatrice says there, if it hadn't been for Battler's supposedly forgotten promise, people wouldn't have died. Not that he bears the full responsibility for what happened, but that without his contribution to it the deaths wouldn't have occurred. And Battler goes on to talk about how that's ridiculous and that obviously Beatrice was the culprit. Now, in the next ep, he has a big change of heart about her. Some of that could come from realising that Beatrice didn't do it, but the turnaround about his attitude to his own responsibility is less clear. But, maybe I'm overthinking it and Battler's response was more about other aspects of the situation.
Well, from Beatrice's point of view if Battler had came back and taken her away she wouldn't have learnt the truth about herself, she wouldn't have been unsure about which love to pursue, she would have spared herself the years in which she believed no one would love her and, more important, wouldn't have challenged Battler to understand her with her game that was supposed to cause people's death so... yes, to her Battler is responsible.

Of course she's picking him up because to her he's the key factor but actually everyone is responsible for what happened. If Natsuhi hadn't tossed down the baby, if Genji hadn't entrusted her to the Fukuin house and then called her back as a servant when she was too young for the job, if Natsuhi had been kinder with her, if the other servants had been more supportive, if Kumasawa hadn't passed on her the love for mystery, if Beatrice had never been turned into a legendary witch, if the new servants hadn't felt superior to her so that she felt the need to prank her, if, if, if... the ending would have been different.

But to Sayo the worst blow must have come from Battler because she loved him and hoped he would save her and he... never came, as if he'd forgot her as unimportant.
The pain must have caused her to think that if this single fact had been different then everyting would have been better.
It's 6 years and she still can't let go of him, it must have been quite a horrible pain.
An unescapable hell, to put it in Erika's words.
And Battler, who cared for her, ended up feeling responsible as well.
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Old 2014-01-14, 04:46   Link #33835
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I remember Clair and Will saying there would be a smaller incident (without explaining if it would include someone dying or not) but honestly I can't remember Ryukishi.
Ah, that was what I was thinking of, not Ryukishi after all.

Quote:
"That's the answer to the final riddle in the 4th game. ......Your great misfortune was solving the epitaph,......reviving as the Golden Witch in the truest sense, and gaining magical power."

"......Looking back, ......perhaps that was an ill-fortuned event.......I do not know. However, as long as the fact that Battler-san returns in 1986 remains unchanged,......some sort of tragedy would certainly have occurred."

"That's right. ......If Battler had returned a year earlier or later,......that incident might not have occurred."

No, some small incident would probably have occurred.

And it would surely have been a mysterious, impossible incident, which no one could understand.

But even so, compared to the Rokkenjima serial murders, it would be a tiny thing......

"......If Battler-kun....had returned a year earlier or later, ...then what?"

"...Fate can be so filled with irony. ......It made me walk the path of a witch, ......and when I solved the epitaph, I became a true witch. ......Then, six years passed, and I learned of his return.......If all of that was fate,......then this crime must have been inevitable and inescapable for me."
Quote:
"That bad luck......gave birth to your motive for the crime."

"......I did wonder.......Why, after six whole years,......did he finally come back?"

"I understand. In a way, ......it would have been better for you if he had never come back."

"Of course, my suffering would have continued.......However, I would not have tainted myself with the unforgivable crime of mass murder."
So, Yasu at the least wouldn't believe that the murders could happen without her actions. It doesn't sound as if the supposed smaller incident is being described as murder there, although it's not outright ruled out. Perhaps by a smaller incident, it might have been something along the lines of the disappearance or suicide of Kanon or Shannon or both of them, as I've seen people suggest before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, she surely hadn't thought of consequences but she might have misjudged the adults. If I buy a gun and tell my mom I own one I don't expect her to use it to shoot at me. Although the siblings had bad relations she didn't expect them to start killing each other.
Yasu was somebody who had a really negative view of people and a good idea of their weaknesses. She'd have known about all the dirty laundry of the characters and tempers. There were certainly some tense moments in the Yasu-authored stories where the adults had guns.

However...those were stories, and Yasu's expectations may as you say have been quite different. There might be as big a gap between what she really expected them to be capable of and what they did as between her own estimation of her ability to commit a murder and her actual ability to do so. It's not as if she'd ever seen the family whipping out guns to point at each other before, and Natsuhi's crime was in unusual circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I assume Battler is judging her in the same way he would judge Ange for wishing to kill her classmates that day. In Ep 8 VN and manga Bern asks him why he doesn't hate Beatrice (Erika also asked him that in EP 6 but there he was more vague).

I don't think Battler really laughed it off but that he understood how desperate Sayo was and how badly she needed him. As he cared for her he was more indulgent in his judgement of her than... let's say Eva, could be. In addition, always because he cared he probably felt sorry he couldn't help when she counted on him for help. So he blames himself.
That makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
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Old 2014-01-14, 17:00   Link #33836
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Ah, that was what I was thinking of, not Ryukishi after all.

So, Yasu at the least wouldn't believe that the murders could happen without her actions. It doesn't sound as if the supposed smaller incident is being described as murder there, although it's not outright ruled out. Perhaps by a smaller incident, it might have been something along the lines of the disappearance or suicide of Kanon or Shannon or both of them, as I've seen people suggest before.
Well, it's possible she would have dropped those identities or one of them, 'killing them' but not herself as she says her suffering would have continued... which I guess implies just by coming back earlier or later Battler wouldn't have made everything better for her.

If her servant identities get killed it's a small mysterious incident as they would just 'disappear'. Though this is just my guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Yasu was somebody who had a really negative view of people and a good idea of their weaknesses. She'd have known about all the dirty laundry of the characters and tempers. There were certainly some tense moments in the Yasu-authored stories where the adults had guns.

However...those were stories, and Yasu's expectations may as you say have been quite different. There might be as big a gap between what she really expected them to be capable of and what they did as between her own estimation of her ability to commit a murder and her actual ability to do so. It's not as if she'd ever seen the family whipping out guns to point at each other before, and Natsuhi's crime was in unusual circumstances.
I don't think she had such a good grasp of their abilities in fact although in her tales she hands guns to the adults it's Battler who have one adult shoot by mistake and by purpose to an innocent person.

Yasu merely assumed they would use the weapons to threaten people and maybe to face her but, although they went around waving gun they never had an accidental discharge and Rosa, who's if possible the most paranoid, violent, unbalanced and wary among all the siblings, never tried to shoot at anyone, even if she claimed there were all wolves around her.

She probably assumed that the adults would shoot in self defence only when they were secure that person was the criminal, like Natsuhi who tried to shoot her, otherwise the fear to commit an unjustified murder and end up in jail would hold them back.

As for presenting them with the gold she likely figured they were greedy but not so greedy.

After all in her tales the adults are always easy to manipulate when in truth they don't really seem as such... so likely she undervalued the possible consequences thinking she would have the upper hand or that she wouldn't need it.

After all she never truly tried her plans that much before so her theories about people's reactions can come out as mostly wrong pretty easily.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
That makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
You're welcome!
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Old 2014-01-15, 07:02   Link #33837
Kealym
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Reading other people's interpretations is always interesting, because I've always considered Rosa the most level headed adult aside from Kyrie, so she just knows better than to try shooting at anyone, it's unnecessary.

She only stayed alive very long in Turn, where she was definitely an accomplice following a planned scenario of some sort anyway, and Banquet, where she basically saw through the ruse of the First Twilight, solved the epitaph (with some help), and coolly pushed Eva into announcing it, which would've been the smart and fair thing to do, anyway. It's also possible that Rosa, in turn, never had bullets, similarly to Natsuhi in Legend.
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Old 2014-01-15, 17:54   Link #33838
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Reading other people's interpretations is always interesting, because I've always considered Rosa the most level headed adult aside from Kyrie, so she just knows better than to try shooting at anyone, it's unnecessary.

She only stayed alive very long in Turn, where she was definitely an accomplice following a planned scenario of some sort anyway, and Banquet, where she basically saw through the ruse of the First Twilight, solved the epitaph (with some help), and coolly pushed Eva into announcing it, which would've been the smart and fair thing to do, anyway. It's also possible that Rosa, in turn, never had bullets, similarly to Natsuhi in Legend.
Well, Rosa has hard time controlling herself when around Maria, beating her and then regretting it. She also was traumatized by Beatrice's death and she's shown not reacting well when remembering it. So, even though she manages to follow a script, she doesn't really look like a well balanced and controlled adult to me.

And in a way she tends to try and get antagonistic toward Eva similar to how Eva does with Krauss, and although she does it in a tamer manner, the two times in which she does it Eva is always under serious pressure and she should consider herself lucky Eva's not a killer.

LOL, in fact, if I had to give her a role in a mystery she would be the one who tries to blackmail the killer and ends up killed by him.

Of course this is just me though...
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Old 2014-01-15, 19:29   Link #33839
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Ok, I think I have an answer to a question we've been throwing around for a while: if the ep7 tea party is largely true, why does Kyrie go on a rampage? Why doesn't she just stop after the gold room?

My answer is simple: if she didn't kill off everyone/almost everyone there's no way she'd be able to keep the gold, and there'd also be a fair chance that she'd get charged with the murders in the gold room.

This theory does assume Kyrie has some knowledge of the mystery plot, but I don't think that's too implausible (perhaps she herself was an accomplice, or she got talking to Yasu after Eva passed out - that seems plausible to me considering Kyrie would probably be curious about Yasu's motive).

Let's start from the gold room.

Krauss and Natsuhi are dead.

What could be done now? Rosa's suggestion was probably not a possibility. It would require Eva to effectively sacrifice herself, which isn't something she'd ever do. There didn't seem to be any way to convince Rosa - with her alive, they'd all go down for the murders of Krauss and Natsuhi, and not get to keep any of their Nazi gold or money due to the investigation.

Therefore Rosa had to die.

What about Eva's suggestion? It had major problems - what if other people knew about the bomb and the gold? Couldn't they testify and reveal the truth behind the incident? Could Eva really be trusted not to try and eliminate the witnesses to her crime, anyway? Eva could easily be looking for an opportunity to off Kyrie and Rudolf herself. And of course there'd be no way to take out Eva without bringing down Hideyoshi too.

Therefore Eva and Hideyoshi had to die.

Why couldn't she just wait for the bomb to go off? Because almost everyone above ground either knows about the plot or could know about the plot. Let's start with the servants and Nanjo. We know from Our Confession that Yasu probably bribed/ threatened them well in advance. That means they'd all probably know about the gold, and the bomb, and the game, and would realize something was up if Beatrice went missing. They could even know the escape route. If any of them survived the incident, they would be able to talk about the cash card, meaning that Kyrie would have no hope of smuggling it off the island and using it. Furthermore, they may even be able to talk about the fact that 8 people went down to the gold chamber and only Kyrie and Rudolf emerged, as well as the nature of the bomb. All four of them simply knew too much.

Therefore Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda and Nanjo had to die.

That leaves the cousins. George, Jessica and Maria all had a pretty close relationship to one of Yasu's personalities. Is it that inconceivable they could be in on the plot too? If they knew about the bomb, the cash card or the escape route that would completely ruin Kyrie's plan. In fact, even if they knew nothing at all there would still be the problem of trying to commit 4 above-ground murders without any of them noticing, and also convincing them that their parents had all mysteriously disappeared and now there's a bomb about to go off, no it's nothing to do with me, honest. Letting the three of them live would be a huge risk.

Therefore George, Jessica and Maria had to die.

That leaves Battler. It was pretty obvious he didn't know shit, but it would be essentially impossible to murder seven people above-ground without him getting suspicious. His testimony could probably get Kyrie charged with murder.

Therefore, Battler had to... "die"...

But Kyrie couldn't kill her own son. So she took a slightly different tack - she handed him over to his crazy ex-girlfriend so they could sail off into the sunset. I think Kyrie ultimately felt some sympathy regarding Yasu's love problems. Just make sure you never let him out of your sight, eh, Yasu? Or indeed your house.

(I'll point to episodes 2 and 6 as times where Battler was unwillingly put in a highly controlling relationship, possibly hinting towards his intended fate)

Therefore Beatrice could die too. And thus the Rokkenjima incident is completed.
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Old 2014-01-15, 21:10   Link #33840
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
[...]
Therefore, Battler had to... "die"...

But Kyrie couldn't kill her own son. So she took a slightly different tack - she handed him over to his crazy ex-girlfriend so they could sail off into the sunset. I think Kyrie ultimately felt some sympathy regarding Yasu's love problems. Just make sure you never let him out of your sight, eh, Yasu? Or indeed your house.
[...]
Now you reminded me of the Bethesda game "Dishonored"! You have to assassinate some people there, but you always get an "alternative", so that you don't have to commit murder. In one such case you had the choice to either kill the target, or to hand him over to a mad lover, who waits for his uncouncious body in a boat. She then sails away with him, never to be seen again...
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