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Old 2009-11-19, 13:43   Link #3381
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well it's just a small difference, it's not like what I said completely goes against your theory, but the way you have put it looks like red is based on gold, which imho ins't a general rule, though inside the game it might work that way, but merely because gold sets a "truth" inside the game, not because red itself depends on gold. That's how I see it.
Got it. Since I think things that happen before the game have the same weight as the gold text, we're basically on the same page.

...Actually, I did say "You can say anything with the red text as long as it is true for all kakera on the game board", so we really are on exactly the same page here. Wow, this must be a first
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Old 2009-11-19, 14:25   Link #3382
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Eh, now the only thing that needs to be confirmed if your assumption or mine assumption are true.

Whether you see the game as a "set of kakera" or as a "fictional story" the general theory of the gold truth and red truth kinda works the same ^^;
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Old 2009-11-19, 14:42   Link #3383
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
magic is impossible.
I still disagree... The Meta-World has to 'exist', and because you can't possibly explain it through science, it's magic.

(I'm sure there's a scientific explanation for things like this, but if it delves too far into quantum physics, it might as well be magic because human beings as of 1986 have no way of creating or accessing something like the meta-world. Also, I remember a Knox Rule that banned scientific devices and theories that had overly complicated explanations.)

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Also, the colored texts don't count as magic because they can only select kakera, not change them.
Selecting an individual universe through speaking aloud colored words sure sounds like magic to me.


I do like your theory though. Makes a lot of sense.
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Old 2009-11-19, 15:20   Link #3384
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I still disagree... The Meta-World has to 'exist', and because you can't possibly explain it through science, it's magic.

(I'm sure there's a scientific explanation for things like this, but if it delves too far into quantum physics, it might as well be magic because human beings as of 1986 have no way of creating or accessing something like the meta-world. Also, I remember a Knox Rule that banned scientific devices and theories that had overly complicated explanations.)
You're right, I should have said "outside the meta world itself" magic doesn't exist. My guess is that the meta world is either a special kakera or something on a level higher than kakera. We know that Bernkastel was able to 'visualize' kakera in Higurashi, and this game might just be a different way to do that.

I personally don't think the meta world has 'magic' in it exactly...but that the meta world is itself a combination of many different kakera. To use a tired analogy, it's like drawing a cube on a piece of paper using nothing but straight lines. Obviously, no number of lines can mark the boundaries of a 3-dimensional object, but it still looks like a cube. The meta world is a way to visualize something that could never be "seen" with human senses.

Of course, the rest of the gold text theory works perfectly well even if you assume magic exists, but only in the meta world. This has been a pretty common theory for a while now anyways.
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Old 2009-11-19, 17:43   Link #3385
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However I wonder if at this time the word "supernatural" should be used instead... not like it changes anything, supernatural is as probable as magic, but it's just to avoid confusion since "magic" has a precise meaning in umineko.
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Old 2009-11-20, 00:02   Link #3386
ijriims
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The existence of "Meta-world" required a devil-proof, and an impossible disproof.

In Umineko, "Magic", in its lowest form, is just tricks or lies. In its highest form, is love and faith.

BTW, why could not Battler use red or blue texts in his confront with Dlanor, but had to use Gold text instead. I don't understand the reason behind...
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Old 2009-11-20, 01:09   Link #3387
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
The existence of "Meta-world" required a devil-proof, and an impossible disproof.

In Umineko, "Magic", in its lowest form, is just tricks or lies. In its highest form, is love and faith.

BTW, why could not Battler use red or blue texts in his confront with Dlanor, but had to use Gold text instead. I don't understand the reason behind...
He was able to use blue text, but since he didn't have any evidence from Game 5 to suggest that Kinzo was dead, stating that Kinzo is dead wouldn't have nearly as much credibility as Erika's total Natsuhi-as-culprit theory. Blue text also has no power to deny other blue text, so it wouldn't have allowed Battler to win the fight by either means.

As for the red, it was a catch-22 problem. In order to break Erika's theory, Battler absolutely needed to prove that Kinzo was dead, but he hadn't collected any evidence to that effect, and as Dlanor pointed out, there wasn't any objective means of determining that a particular corpse belonged to Kinzo anyway. That left introducing Beato's red from Game 4, but red text without a basis in physical evidence counts as a supernatural weapon. According to the established rules, the detective is forbidden to make use of supernatural methods. Since Battler was the detective for the first four games, it was assumed that he was a detective for the fifth game as well, so he couldn't introduce any red at all. He could use red if he wasn't the detective, but proving that would again require showing Kinzo was dead with the red text he couldn't use yet, according to the rules.

So as long as Battler stayed within the rules, he was pretty much screwed out of counterattacking. The fact that he was able to introduce gold text suggests that either A) it's not a supernatural method and doesn't violate Knox's commandment, or B) it's somehow outside the rules and has precedence over Knox. Either way, that single statement he made with it destroyed his status as detective, which in turn made all of his side's red statements admissible to the court.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-11-20 at 01:19.
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Old 2009-11-20, 01:59   Link #3388
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Sorry, but to answer ijriims's question, I'll need the second half of my theory. The Knox rules might be stated in gold, or they might just be an inherent part of the game. To keep things simple, let's just assume that most of them have been stated in gold since the beginning.

Gold Text Theory part 2:

Spoiler for The Knox Rules:
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Old 2009-11-20, 03:19   Link #3389
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@LyricalAura: I still don't understand. It was not necessary to provide a proof that that corpse was Kinzo, but in fact the Knox rules only required clues pointing to the truth.

I think piece-Battler had never seen Kinzo during Ep1-4 and the fact that he had been diagnosized as having only 3-month left were enough clues that Kinzo could have died before all episodes. And these clues supported Beato's red texts in EP4. Doesn't it make sense?

In fact, isn't the purpose of red texts to be truth without proof or evidence? Why suddenly it required clues? Blue texts requiring clues was more sounding.

@chronotrig: I merely viewed the gold texts and GameMaster as Ryukishi07's latest innovations and a prologue to Battler's status in EP6. Nothing more than a plot for creating a climax and endowing Battler with more power. Sorry for that.
-------------------------------------------

I think I can say something on the red texts "身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する。即ち、替え玉トリックは存在しない!" from a different perspective

If one re-read EP4, one could find that Beato stated this red texts to break Battler's blue texts on 6-8th twilights that" 殺人を実行したのは、身元不明死体で姿をくらました犯人Xで説明できる。そもそも、あの3人の顔面も粉砕さ れていた。どれかが替え玉死体の可能性は充分にある!", responding to the part that Battler claimed that Genji, Nanjo or Kumasawa had used body-double trick (Battler's blue texts actually contained of two parts: one was that a person from 1st twilight had killed the threes, and the next part was Genji or one of threes had faked death using body double trick. Beato was referring to the latter part but not the first part, as the first part was the truth). She could have used this red texts to break Battler's blue texts on the 2nd twilight " 犯人には、アリバイのない人間を想定する。それは死者だ! 最初の6人の死体の中には、顔面粉砕による身元 不明死体が含まれる。これが実は偽装死体で、犠牲者のふりをして姿をくらました犯人Xが二人を殺したとの仮 説は可能だ! そして犯人は密室殺人構築後、ベッドの下に隠れ、俺たち全員をやり過ごしたんだ !!", but she hadn't. Why? The only reason was that Battler had correctly proposed the truth for 2nd twilight actually. The red texts used by Beato only applied in the 6-8th twilights (which meant the identities of Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa's bodies were guaranteed, as their faces were crashed and became bodies with unclear identities, but not that the identities of the bodies in the 1st twilight were guaranteed as well). Much like the red texts "源次、熊沢、南條は殺人者ではない" should only be applicable to the 6-8th twilight but not the whole episode.

In fact, the claim that this red text could apply to also the bodies in the 1st twilight was by Lambda during the ???. She intrepreted the red texts to cover the first twilight as well.

What was Lambda's motive? She wanted the game to draw indefinitely, so she had every incentive to interpret the red texts in a way which made Battler (and the readers) could not solve the game (just like Erika and Bern interpreted the red texts in order to frame Natsuhi in EP5, but not to discover the truth). Therefore while people said that Beato could not have used the loophole "pseudo-corpse <> corpse" to cheat Battler in her red texts. It was true, but the red texts in fact only referred to the 6-8 twilights in EP1 but not including 1st twilight. SHe did not rebuke Battler using this interpretation on his account on the 2nd twilight since it was the truth and she wanted Battler to find the truth. However, Lambda did not want Battler to solve the game so she re-interpreted the red texts to make body-double tricks sound impossible in the 1st twilight even though Battler had already found the truth.

And if Lambda re-interpreting the red texts and misdirected Battler on purpose was true, then either Kyrie or Shannon had used body-double trick during the 1st twilight was valid.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-20 at 05:49.
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Old 2009-11-20, 04:12   Link #3390
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However does that interpretation fit with the red that is the Knox Rules?
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Old 2009-11-20, 04:14   Link #3391
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
In fact, isn't the purpose of red texts to be truth without proof or evidence? Why suddenly it required clues?
"And this is why Ep5 is such a farce."

It constantly 'introduces' rules we've never heard of before, even though they make perfect sense and/or don't contradict with what we've seen in earlier Episodes. Rules that seem designed specifically to get the verdict Bern desires...

It's extremely suspect. Not that I think the rules didn't exist before Ep5, but...
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Old 2009-11-20, 08:00   Link #3392
Jan-Poo
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@chronotrig

Didn't we come to the conclusion that the real reason Battler wasn't able to use red text to confirm Natsuhi as the culprit is actually because of Lambda's trial rule?

Lambda said that in that trial it was necessary to provide a proof before being able to use red and that only witches could use it. In other words it was a new rule. It really makes little sense for Dlanor to block Battler on the charge of being the detective, especially considering Erika is the detective and, as you said, there can't be more than one in a game. If this rule is true, there's no way Dlanor doesn't know.
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Old 2009-11-20, 11:37   Link #3393
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
@chronotrig
Lambda said that in that trial it was necessary to provide a proof before being able to use red and that only witches could use it. In other words it was a new rule. It really makes little sense for Dlanor to block Battler on the charge of being the detective, especially considering Erika is the detective and, as you said, there can't be more than one in a game. If this rule is true, there's no way Dlanor doesn't know.
Maybe it's a sign to show that Dlanor would rather have Battler as the detective than Erika.
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Old 2009-11-20, 13:16   Link #3394
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Maybe it's a sign to show that Dlanor would rather have Battler as the detective than Erika.
Well that's obvious, considering she's yet another addition to Battler's magical harem.
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Old 2009-11-20, 13:32   Link #3395
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Concerning the Golden Truth I have a little theory of my own, I read through most of the theories here and I thought about it again and again...well we'll know more in some weeks, but I still give it a try to propose my idea. It's rather simple, but simple does not always have to be wrong.

Episode 5 again introduced the idea, that the Red truth is, while it is always the truth, very time and space contextual. The theory was introduced that the victims of the first twilight could only be classified dead in red was because they were dead at the point in time where the trial started.
This would give whoever is using red the chance to bend facts to his/her own liking even though they are telling the truth. This makes it possible to argue very elaboratly with red, but also makes red very unspecific regarding what it actually may point out.

The golden truth introduced was described as sometimes inferior, but sometimes superior and simple yet beautiful and perfect (as far as I remember).
I got the idea that what is said in gold states simple neverchanging rules for the gameboard that are effective not only now and not only regarding the games until now, but every game that was and is to come.
It would be like playing chess with stones and declaring about one certain stone 'This is the king' in gold. It would be a never changing rule and were it to be broken the game could be imediatly called off.

IF the golden truth would have that specific trait it would explain why it is superior, because it states things that are basically factual and unchanging. Why it is inferior would also be clear, because you can neither build up a strategy with it nor can you state things that can change.
If Battler were to state this there can NEVER be a chance for Ushiromiya Kinzo to roam Rokkenjima and any theory providing that trait is eliminated from the start.

Well that's my idea...because lately I have been playing around a lot with the ideas about 'truth of the past', 'present truth' and 'truth of the future' that was hinted at in Episode 4.
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Old 2009-11-20, 14:04   Link #3396
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Ah yes, right. The reason I posted the gold text in the first place
This should be the last long one but...

Spoiler for Why EP5 isn't a farce (or at least not a total farce):
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Old 2009-11-20, 14:30   Link #3397
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Then I don't understand why Battler had to take part in this unfair trial. Just abolish or ignore it and return to the old way of debating freely.
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Old 2009-11-20, 14:42   Link #3398
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Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size:
Quote:
Then I don't understand why Battler had to take part in this unfair trial. Just abolish or ignore it and return to the old way of debating freely.
First off, it's not an unfair trial. The exact same rules applied to both sides. The only thing that was unfair was the match-up, with basically 5 people against Battler. But this would have been the same even without the trial. Also, what way does Battler have of abolishing the trial? He doesn't have any control over this world until he becomes the Game Master. At that point in the game, without Beato to help him, he's basically trapped.

Even the witches admit that Battler has pretty much no way of winning at that point.
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Old 2009-11-20, 14:47   Link #3399
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Also, how does it get around Dlanor's question? If Battler had just said in red "The corpse that is here at this time and in this place is Ushiromiya Kinzo's", there's no way to get around it. You say the red can be used to play word games, but how could you possible get around a line as specific as this?
What time? 12:00 AM? 12:00 PM? October 4th, or October 5th? Where? The boiler, Natsuhi's room, or in the guesthouse?
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Old 2009-11-20, 14:58   Link #3400
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What time? 12:00 AM? 12:00 PM? October 4th, or October 5th? Where? The boiler, Natsuhi's room, or in the guesthouse?
We're talking about the time Battler saw that corpse, right? So we know from that scene the exact time and place, though where this place actually is isn't known to the player.

If Battler says "the corpse Battler saw at this time was Kinzo's corpse" in red, everything should be settled, right? The gold implies that the corpse Battler saw is Kinzo's, so obviously, Battler knew that the corpse he saw was Kinzo's when he said that gold. Therefore, there should have been nothing stopping him from saying that in red.
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