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Old 2014-03-01, 15:55   Link #34041
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
You say that like it's a bad thing, as opposed to a reflection of someone whose desires and dreams were never validated outside of an abused child half her age. You always seem to forget that whatever "power" Yasu gained through solving the epitaph was only hers for a couple of years, as opposed to the thought patterns that dictated her entire formative years.

Honestly, your ridiculous pretense that gaining the gold should have been enough to "fix" Yasu's life is like claiming that dumping a new mother in Maria's lap should automatically make her stop talking to stuffed animals and become capable of making friends with everyone in her class.
The irony here is that putting Maria in an emotionally healthy household probably WOULD have done a lot to help Maria in this regard once she got over losing Rosa. The main reason she regressed inward the way she did was because of Rosa and her lack of friends, and if she's not living with Rosa Ushiromiya, she wouldn't be going to the Ushiromiya conferences, which means Beatrice wouldn't be able to influence her development anymore and has a good chance of eventually fading away in importance when she's showered with the love and affection she deserves.

And no, Renall is not saying the gold would auto-fix Yasu's problems, don't put words in his mouth. What he's saying is Yasu had other venues in her life to escape her situation and she didn't take them because of her emotional complexes. She wasn't powerless; she did infact cultivate her status as a victim because she was using it to make her seem special as an escape.

I would know, I've been there. Yasu was bullied as a child and created her magical narrative as a form of empowerment...but she'll lose all of it if she leaves Rokkenjima, because the power-fantasy she created to validate her situation is only sustainable within her situation.

So what Yasu basically did was decide to keep playing her Witch Games instead of reaching out to alternate situations out of fear of the unknown, deciding that if she's meant to take those roads, they'll come to her, ala Battler remembering his promise unprompted or something.

It's a flaw, but it's not an entirely damning one. It's a flaw that makes her real, makes her human, and makes her something other people can resonate, instead of 'merely' being this hilarious trauma conga-line cocktail of absurd coincidences and conspiracies that none of us can empathize with in our real lives because we have nothing comparable.

It's a flaw that, ironically, makes Yasu MORE endearing, LESS likely to be a criminal, and much more tragic.

Tragedies require that people have been capable of avoiding this situation; it's one of the most core tenets of the genre convention. Yasu is one of the main players in the tragedy, and one of it's main agents and actors. If you are implying that Yasu couldn't of done anything about her situation on her own for ~reasons~, you are turning her whole life and all of her pain into a farce, even if seeming powerless is what Yasu herself wants.

Are you going to give Yasu what she WANTS, or what she NEEDS? Because if they were the same thing, none of this would have happened in the first place.

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The point of Maria's diary was that Maria's situation was actually more miserable than she put across and that she had less control over her life than she tried to convince herself. It doesn't make any sense to say these situations are being paralleled and then claim that one is slapping a coat of paint over a shitty situation while the other is making a shitty situation out of something that "isn't so bad".

Also, you still haven't bothered to point out an actual instance where Yasu has been histrionic about her situation.
You mean aside from comparing six years of Battler's absence to A THOUSAND YEARS OF HELL?
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Old 2014-03-01, 17:18   Link #34042
fg204
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
That's certainly an interesting perspective, considering that Yasu constantly downplays her problems and issues throughout the entirety of her sequence in EP7.

The point of Maria's diary was that Maria's situation was actually more miserable than she put across and that she had less control over her life than she tried to convince herself. It doesn't make any sense to say these situations are being paralleled and then claim that one is slapping a coat of paint over a shitty situation while the other is making a shitty situation out of something that "isn't so bad".

Also, you still haven't bothered to point out an actual instance where Yasu has been histrionic about her situation.
That's exactly the impression I got from reading Clair's story in EP7, basically slapping a coat of "magic" over her entire childhood, much like Maria's diary. As I've mentioned before, intelligence does not necessarily equate to mental health/capacity, so no matter how intelligent Yasu may appear to be, she still reverts back to the only defense mechanism she had been using since childhood when talking about her painful life in "magical" terms. While Yasu certainly did have other venues for escaping her situation (as did both Ange AND Maria), I feel like minimizing her problems and criticizing her for not taking these venues also, by extension, minimizes the problems that Ange and Maria had to deal with as well.

Playing devil's advocate: Aren't we obligated to also question whether or not Ange or Maria's problems aren't actually as bad as they are presented? Why don't we criticize them for not taking other avenues to address their problems? Why don't we also criticize them for harboring thoughts of murder when their situations became unbearable? And are their situations even as bad as Yasu's in the first place? Is Ange that much less intelligent than Yasu when she snapped? Why didn't Ange do all the things she could have done to more productively deal with her situation? Why couldn't she open up to her classmates, make some friends, and get off her ass and study? Was Maria's situation all that bad compared to Rosa's? Rosa dealt with abuse and with everyone in her family bullying her, ignoring her, nobody caring about her. Rosa has dealt with even worse things, like being stuck with a child she didn't want, being abandoned and saddled with debt, stumbling into accidentally killing a woman when she was a little girl and being so traumatized she had to mostly repress the incident in her head. Rosa has dealt with all of that and turned out just fine (note the sarcasm) while no one cares or ever cared about her suffering, so why couldn't Maria handle a few nights alone when Rosa buys her candy, clothes, and stuffed animals?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Calling her "damaged" or "crippled" is making excuses for her when she's already making plenty herself. She knows right from wrong. She knows reality from fantasy. She just doesn't like it, because she wants validation and attention.

I'm suggesting her problems aren't actually as bad as she presents them, not that she necessarily was in the proper state of mind to actually address them.
Ange also knew right from wrong. She was also able to distinguish reality from fantasy as well. She obviously didn't like her reality and decided to cope by using the same "magic" passed on from Yasu-->Ange-->Ange. But sometimes when a situation gets out of hand while her only way of coping was to withdraw into fantasy, the line between reality and fantasy becomes incredibly blurred, as was the case at her boarding school. And when this coping mechanism is completely denied to her by her classmates (as well as her own inevitable realization), Ange's anger/frustration has nowhere else to go, so she reacts initially by lashes out at her class mates (ordering the stakes to murder them) and subsequently by lashing out at her imaginary friends when she realizes just how useless they were in the real world (similar to how Yasu lashes out at Shannon and Kanon in the way she depicts their death is EP2 upon realizing how useless they were as "furniture"). But playing devil's advocate: aren't we obligated to criticize Ange for the same reasons that we're criticizing Yasu?
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Old 2014-03-01, 17:52   Link #34043
jjblue1
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Personally for me a person is damaged when she can't function normally in a society.
Yasu, Maria and Ange fail in that regard. As not functioning well is unpleasant to say the least and they aren't masochists they chose copying mechanisms that, although seemed to work in the beginning, ultimately made more damage than good, like starting using drugs to cope with depression.
Yasu and Maria chose them when they were too young to realize that they were bad and, even when they began to realize they were harmful, by now they were so addicted they simply couldn't stop on their own but what's worse, the idea of stopping was seen as equally harmful because then they would be left without a copying method.
Ange, starting using copying methods when she was older, ultimately could see the damage and drop them.
Ange realizes it's not in fantasies that can find help but in real humans, she makes all her wishes and needs loud and clear for everyone to hear and tries going on. Ultimately all this isn't enough. She clearly states she wants to uncover the truth to DIE, meaning that after all, discovering the truth is another copying mechanism to give herself the strenght to go on, one that seems a bit more noble than the 7 sisters.
Ange too has the means to escape to her situation as Eva is dead and she's rich and she can do exactly what she does in the magic ending... but at first she somehow doesn't see it.

Back to Maria and Yasu... Maria won't realize humans are the ones who can help her (and actually they didn't) and will withdrawl further in her fantasy world when Ange will reject her. She's in a age in which she's slowly coming aware that magic is actually her fantasy but we can see she rejects this idea with all her strength as this would let her with no support at all. So far humans were harmful for her and the only ones who were kind were her magic friends... why to discharge the only thing that apparently helped her just because it makes her dealing with humans harder? She didn't interact well with them in the first place.

Yasu is similar to Maria in the fact that even harder than her, she keeps on deluding herself. Even the gold and the bomb aren't used to improve her reality but just her magic. She has lost touch with reality, she doesn't see herself as the person she presents to the world, she's unconnected to it. However, differently from Maria, a side of her would like to connect to the world. Somehow she vaguely understands what she's doing is bad but... differently from Ange can't stop. When Battler comes back she doesn't go and face him, she uses such roundabout way he can't understand her even if he wanted. It's as if she's talking in Russian to him instead than Japanese because... she can't remember Japanese anymore even if she should know it. She knows it exists and that Battler doesn't speak Russian but... she just can't talk to him in Japanese. But since she's trying to talk to him she expects him to figure out the meaning of her Russian sentences... if he cares for her and wants to help her. Otherwise, if he doesn't care enough to try and figure them out, even if she had talked in Japanese he wouldn't have helped her.

That's Yasu's mind setting. She needs help because she understand she can't go on but she's afraid that if she asks her request will be turned down so... she's giving criptic signals thinking that if people will catch them it'll be proof they'll care and that so they'll help her.

It's a pattern typical of people who'll attempt suicide. They'll toss cryptic warning signals that no one will catch not because they don't care but because those signals are too cryptic and so they'll end up taking too many sleeping pills if they're nice... or filling the room with gas and making it explode killing in the process the people they're living with thinking 'hey, but in this way someone will surely notice and come help me...'

Yasu's filling Rokkenjima with gas thinking someone will come help her as she's unable to save herself or ask for help. So yes, she's seeking attention because she needs help and yes she's seeking it in the wrong way. But she needs help because she's damaged and she's seeking it in the wrong way because she's damaged not because she's having fun with it or she's enjoying doing evil things.

She's harmful to others so justice should take care of her, yes, but would have she gotten at this point hadn't she been damaged by others and left her to fend on her own?
Honestly I don't think so.
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Old 2014-03-01, 18:26   Link #34044
haguruma
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Maybe I stand kind of in the middle with this, but I see Yasu neither as a emotionally crippled victim nor a drama-hungry diva but something in between that is much more tragic to me.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But I am saying that, given that we're aware of this, we should be questioning her portrayal of herself, because there's an agenda there. And we ought not lose sight of the fact that other people exist in the world of the story besides her.
I do wonder though if she, at the point she was during the writing of her story, was consciously aware of that fact. She has been surrounded so much by tales of magic and chances and wonders and mysteries, basically her whole life consisted of stories. The story of Beatrice, the legend of the gold, the legend of the Golden Witch, the legend of Akujikijima, the stories of ghosts in the mansion, basically she herself was a story spun around this boy turned girl.
Especially the traumatic reveal of her real identity doesn't only reveal that her life has been a lie, it reveals that she has no identity...so in a way it reveals to her (and to us) that identity, people, environment, all is just stories spun around some "vessel" into which it is poured.

I don't think she believed in magic in the way that Maria believes in witches, but in the way a theologian believes in the principle of the divine. At least "my Yasu" (which is as much a forgery as Renall's, AT's, or musuoka's) is very much aware that her reality is fictional, it's just that "reality" has become so uncertain for her that it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What he's saying is Yasu had other venues in her life to escape her situation and she didn't take them because of her emotional complexes. She wasn't powerless; she did infact cultivate her status as a victim because she was using it to make her seem special as an escape.
I would rather focus on her actual wish for power and agency more than her wish to be powerless. I think it is important to consider that Beatrice stresses so often that she cannot leave Rokkenjima because her magic doesn't suffice, because of the magic toxin. Isn't it because she would actually be in danger of losing all her agency once she leaves Rokkenjima? Not because she believes in the witch, but because "the witch" - the bomb, the gold, the legend, the history - is what gives her power. In the world outside she would have to do something and Shannon and Kanon prove that she doesn't know what to do with herself...in a way I suppose she really thinks that she is nothing, just a container filled with a very fragile "something" that's even easier to crush than every other human.

Shannon doesn't know what to do besides becoming George's wife and even that is a closed door. Once she receives the key she's still convinced to throw it away. Kanon is to afraid to even start following any personal likes or hobbies (like playing the guitar)...Jessica's good influence came to late for that.

Yes, Yasu had options that she was not willing to take, but saying that everybody with options is to blame for not taking them seems as simplistic to me as excusing all this on basis of comparing a 19 year old to a child.
I believe that she made herself believe that this was the route to take, on basis that when everything is based on stories and believe then she can just create her own. I think she fooled herself just as much into her dream of "the Golden Land" as a believer into the idea of "heaven".
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Old 2014-03-01, 18:57   Link #34045
AuraTwilight
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I would rather focus on her actual wish for power and agency more than her wish to be powerless. I think it is important to consider that Beatrice stresses so often that she cannot leave Rokkenjima because her magic doesn't suffice, because of the magic toxin. Isn't it because she would actually be in danger of losing all her agency once she leaves Rokkenjima? Not because she believes in the witch, but because "the witch" - the bomb, the gold, the legend, the history - is what gives her power. In the world outside she would have to do something and Shannon and Kanon prove that she doesn't know what to do with herself...in a way I suppose she really thinks that she is nothing, just a container filled with a very fragile "something" that's even easier to crush than every other human.
Yea, this is more or less what Renall and I were getting at. She had solutions to her problems but her coping mechanisms were so validating that she was kind of turning inward and clinging to them instead of doing the things that would make them unnecessary...

Because the alternative is a scary, unknown road.

Quote:
Yes, Yasu had options that she was not willing to take, but saying that everybody with options is to blame for not taking them seems as simplistic to me as excusing all this on basis of comparing a 19 year old to a child.
Renall and I aren't blaming her, is what seems to be the fundamental misunderstanding people have here.

Or rather, we're not assigning her additional blame, I should say. We're simply shifting what her blame IS, and negating the conceit that she doesn't have any blame of her own. She helped create her situation probably as much as the Kinzo Conspiracy did, and her tragedy is trying to trick herself into thinking she has no true fault for it while taking the blame for things that she's NOT responsible for.
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Old 2014-03-01, 19:51   Link #34046
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Well, I'm also blaming Yasu for many things, but I wouldn't put the blame solely on her. Honestly what I blame the most are the people around her, expecially the ones who were adults and claimed to like her and wanted to help her like Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo.

Many finds cute the trick Kumasawa taught her to not lose things but when this took place she was 9/10 (believing to be 6/7) and instead than helping her to put things into proportions explaining her the other people's behaviour, pointing out her faults but at the same time offering her understanding (Sweetheart, I know this is very hard for you but lets face the truth, you lose things. I know this is because you're young and this is all too difficult for you but the situation here is not hopeless, Kumasawa here will teach you a trick not to make this mistake anymore so you'll be as good as the other girls in no time) and helping her to overcome her troubles so that she could boost her confidence and learn to relate with others, she supports the theory of the witch, let her covers her mistakes (but possibly also the other girls' bullying as it's unlikely Yasu lost the brush out of the church when she was inside it) and feed her fantasy.
If Kumasawa had helped Yasu to wave off everything that had happened into the church as a dream, if she had mediated between her and the other girls instead than spoiling her causing the other girls' jealousy, Yasu wouldn't have built another imaginary friend and maybe would have managed to become a little better in social relations.

I won't go into what Genji did because hiding the truth from her, letting her grow up with the idea she was a girl with something wrong which she desperately tried to fix as she longed to be normal when actually she was a boy with something missing, forcing her to live as a orphan (couldn't he have adopted her or paid someone to adopt her?), hiring her to work on Rokkenjima when she was so young and in such a harsh environment and using her for Kinzo's atonement when it was too late for her to build up a father/son/daughter relationship or even create a setting in which she would be accepted in the family where everyone saw her as merely a servant... well, that's pretty horrible.

As for Nanjo... did he ever do something useful besides saving her life from the fall, telling her the truth and then working for her as accomplice? Did he ever care for her, her mother or her grandmother?

And then the 3 of them all let themselves bribe to take part to a murder game. I see more blame in them than in Yasu as they're all adults, apparently mentally healthy and whose actions aren't dictated by copying mechanisms.

Yasu has excuses which can be more or less valid but at least they exist. Those people have none.

Also I don't think Yasu believes herself completely blameless. She's just not good at dealing with blames, likely also thanks to the environment she grew in. We see the servants would automatically think her guilty when something were to go wrong, even when this wasn't the case. Doing this to a child who has to learn to take responsability is more often than not harmful because it ends up blurring the borders between when he deserves to be blamed and when he does not. At the same time Kumasawa, as said before, supported her claim she wasn't to blame but the witch. Then we've the servants who slacked off but weren't caught by Natsuhi who would however jump on her. Add to this Kinzo's actions, Genji's conspirancy, Natsuhi's conspirancy and you've a Yasu who grew up in a setting where right and wrong were viewed by people in a very subjective manner so that it was probably hard to put things into the right proportions and she ends up blaming Battler for her situation when he's probably the one who less deserve a blame and that would have been more willing to help her had she tried to reach for him in a comprehensible way.


On a sidenote is interesting how the short messages we use on this board ended up confusing our point of views so that some seemed to support that she's completely blameless while others seemed to support the opposite when actually that wasn't the intention of both sides... at least if I've understood correctly what everyone was trying to say...
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Old 2014-03-02, 03:48   Link #34047
GoldenLand
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Yeah, it seems as if people are actually agreeing more than they disagree despite appearances.

Yasu's obviously an intelligent, creative person who isn't insane and has an understanding of what is and isn't a healthy coping mechanism, and an idea of the "real" nature of magic. She's someone who had the ability to do things such as call Battler and leave the island, but didn't. At the same time, "not insane" doesn't mean she's mentally healthy. Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo have let her down to an incredible degree, she's isolated and has nobody but Maria to rely on, knowing the true nature of her own coping mechanisms doesn't stop her from needing and using them, the structure of her coping mechanisms requires her to stay on the island unless she's willing to abandon them, and her issues with her upbringing/gender/family history/love life are tough ones. Nobody completely understands her and cares about her as herself (Maria is the closest but she really has her limits), and more than anything she wants somebody to do that.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I won't go into what Genji did because hiding the truth from her, letting her grow up with the idea she was a girl with something wrong which she desperately tried to fix as she longed to be normal when actually she was a boy with something missing, forcing her to live as a orphan (couldn't he have adopted her or paid someone to adopt her?), hiring her to work on Rokkenjima when she was so young and in such a harsh environment and using her for Kinzo's atonement when it was too late for her to build up a father/son/daughter relationship or even create a setting in which she would be accepted in the family where everyone saw her as merely a servant... well, that's pretty horrible.
Genji could have found a good, caring family for the injured baby Yasu, and made sure there was plenty of money available for them. At that time, even a well intentioned and otherwise caring family might have made the decision to keep her in the dark about her sex, which would have led to unpleasant surprises later, but at least the other problems (being a child servant, bullying from Natsuhi and the servants, isolation, lack of a true family and a true support network) could have been avoided. Even placing her with a proper family wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of letting Yasu spend some time with Kinzo in controlled circumstances or even have her become the family head. If he had to lie about her identity and introduce her to the Ushiromiyas, even a situation where he said "this is my/Kumawawa's/Nanjo's relative who is coming to stay on the island over the summer" would be preferable.

You're completely right, the people most at blame there are the adults. Yes, let's bring the baby Natsuhi tried to murder back to the island for Kinzo's benefit. So that no more murder or molestation attempts occur, let's make her work as a servant from a young age. Let's deal with her problems by indulging her coping mechanisms rather than actually helping her solve them. Let's feed her hints about the epitaph that was meant for her. Now, put on this wig and dress and come over here to forgive your dad for imprisoning and raping your mother! OK, now she's the family head, let's just obey her and indulge her like we indulged Kinzo, or be bribed with money by her.

I'm beginning to think that the reason Ryukishi didn't give those characters, Genji in particular, more depth is that justifying that stuff was too hard for apparently sane and competent adults.
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Old 2014-03-02, 08:01   Link #34048
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Genji could have found a good, caring family for the injured baby Yasu, and made sure there was plenty of money available for them. At that time, even a well intentioned and otherwise caring family might have made the decision to keep her in the dark about her sex, which would have led to unpleasant surprises later, but at least the other problems (being a child servant, bullying from Natsuhi and the servants, isolation, lack of a true family and a true support network) could have been avoided. Even placing her with a proper family wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of letting Yasu spend some time with Kinzo in controlled circumstances or even have her become the family head. If he had to lie about her identity and introduce her to the Ushiromiyas, even a situation where he said "this is my/Kumawawa's/Nanjo's relative who is coming to stay on the island over the summer" would be preferable.

You're completely right, the people most at blame there are the adults. Yes, let's bring the baby Natsuhi tried to murder back to the island for Kinzo's benefit. So that no more murder or molestation attempts occur, let's make her work as a servant from a young age. Let's deal with her problems by indulging her coping mechanisms rather than actually helping her solve them. Let's feed her hints about the epitaph that was meant for her. Now, put on this wig and dress and come over here to forgive your dad for imprisoning and raping your mother! OK, now she's the family head, let's just obey her and indulge her like we indulged Kinzo, or be bribed with money by her.

I'm beginning to think that the reason Ryukishi didn't give those characters, Genji in particular, more depth is that justifying that stuff was too hard for apparently sane and competent adults.
Probably you're right. Not mentioning having Yasu work as a servant wouldn't have necessarily stopped Kinzo from abusing her. He had no problems in raping his own daughter. Wouldn't he find much more easy to rape an unrelated, shy and lonely servant with which he can close himself in his study, claiming hey she looks like Beatrice so she must be her new reincarnation?

Really, the way I see things, Genji put Yasu more at risk than anything else by having her come on Rokkenjima as a servant and letting her grow insecure and isolated s she is.

Had Kinzo tried to abuse of her, would she have managed to push him away? To ask for help? Honestly I don't think so.
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Old 2014-03-02, 14:35   Link #34049
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To be fair, though, if there were any chance of Genji doing right by Yasu he probably wouldn't of let Beatrice-II be kept prisoner her whole life anyway, and Yasu wouldn't of been born.

Not that it excuses it, but he'd already had a whole person's lifetime to show the resolve to actually do the right thing and he didn't. Yasu didn't really have a chance.
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Old 2014-03-02, 17:19   Link #34050
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Well, I think right in the beginning Genji's life was pretty difficult as he just escaped from his homeland thanks to Kinzo and I'm not even sure if he did so legally.
So maybe his position was uncertain in the beginning, when Beatrice 2 was young and probably he wanted to believe Kinzo cared for his daughter and was acting out of love to her (and probably Kinzo fed him excuses like 'my wife would be a jerk with her' 'people would point out she's an illegittimate and be rude' 'here she can have everything' 'trust me Genji, I know what I'm doing'...). Also Kinzo had the support of the American forces and we're told he basically could do whatever he wanted even when Japan itself wasn't agreeing to it...

So I'll accept he might have felt powerless to do something.

Later on, he might have esitated in doing something because he didn't think Kinzo would have the gut to abuse of his daughter. After all, it's such a horrible thing that everyone would say 'hey, that's not a funny joke, come on, you can't seriously think so' and deluded himself it wouldn't happen until... well, it happened.

(also it seems Japanese servants in the past had a pretty passive mind in regard to their masters so that they sort of found natural for the masters to rape them or other servants or abuse them in other ways. I'm not sure if this passive mind was due to the situation they were in, so that the police or everyone else wouldn't help them or whatever other reason but still... it's pretty scary... and after all we see how Natsuhi handles Yasu. She starts working when she's a minor and when angered Natsuhi orders her to clean everything without stopping to rest or eat. Not something we would expect a modent master to do to a servant)

But when he began hiding Yasu we realize he isn't as powerless anymore. Although he's still using illegal means he managed to bribe Nanjo into lying to declare the baby dead while at the same time taking care of him and switching his sex.
He managed to bribe the Fukuin director into taking the baby and basically keeping it hidden and tricking him... or better her into believing she was 3 years younger. Then he managed to hire said baby despite Natsuhi and Krauss being contrary.

Really, by the time he began protecting Yasu Genji had evidently enough power he could have asked Kumasawa to keep Yasu as if she was her grandaughter, pay her for the expenses and then ask her to carry Yasu to the island here and there with some excuses.
Yasu could have gone tot he same school as Jessica and could have lived a more or less normal life in a better environment while still meeting Kinzo regularly.

Honestly, Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa did very little to help Yasu for real. Personally I fear they were trying to manipulate her for their own reasons.



On a sidenote... guys who would you vote as the worse sibling among the 4? Not as the worse parent/businessman/human being, just as the worse sibling among the 4.
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Old 2014-03-02, 19:05   Link #34051
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
On a sidenote... guys who would you vote as the worse sibling among the 4? Not as the worse parent/businessman/human being, just as the worse sibling among the 4.
As children, probably Krauss.

As adults, definitely Eva.
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Old 2014-03-02, 19:16   Link #34052
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, I think right in the beginning Genji's life was pretty difficult as he just escaped from his homeland thanks to Kinzo and I'm not even sure if he did so legally.
Very unlikely. When Taiwan was "returned" to the Republic of China after the downfall of the Japanese Empire, which had gained Taiwan in the treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, there was a long period of strife. The new government tried it's best to change the structure of a nation that had no real identity and so starting with the 228 Incident and the following White Terror there was an era of immense violence, marked by a martial law that lasted from 1949 to 1987.

Genji (whatever his real name is) likely fled Taiwan during the harshest phase of the White Terror in the early 50s, when the just established martial government feverishly searched for Communist spies among the populace and many people were imprisoned, executed, or just vanished.

In a way Genji is like Yasu in some ways. He is actually a nobleman from a well off family in Taiwan who lost everything, including his stubborn family. Genji will likely not be his real name either, his actual identity lost to time.
Still he is so grateful to Kinzo for giving him this escape, to be at his best friends side at least, that he doesn't see this work as a chore but as a way to repay Kinzo's noble deed. Everything he does against Kinzo levels this out again and puts him against his favor.

I like it how he actually says in the EP8 manga that this On (a Japanese moral ethics concept -- simplified way too much you could say it demands for fvors to be always leveled out) he has towards the house of Ushiromiya can never be repaid in his lifetime. To which Kinzo just says that Genji should loosen up, which is kinda sad because they never seemed to have this conversation in real life.

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Honestly, Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa did very little to help Yasu for real. Personally I fear they were trying to manipulate her for their own reasons.
That is the one way we can see it. I think in Kumasawa's case that could actually be true...though on the other hand you have motherly Virgilia who is always looking out for her. Genji I think you can make the easiest case that he was just torn...based on the bit we got.
Nanjo and Kumasawa got way too few character to make much of it.
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Old 2014-03-02, 20:43   Link #34053
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
In a way Genji is like Yasu in some ways. He is actually a nobleman from a well off family in Taiwan who lost everything, including his stubborn family. Genji will likely not be his real name either, his actual identity lost to time.
Still he is so grateful to Kinzo for giving him this escape, to be at his best friends side at least, that he doesn't see this work as a chore but as a way to repay Kinzo's noble deed. Everything he does against Kinzo levels this out again and puts him against his favor.
Well, yes there's a parallelism but somehow I've a hard time thinking Yasus hould feel grateful to Kinzo the same way as Genji feels grateful to him.
Although in the Japanese culture it's put a big emphasis on how children should be grateful to their parents for giving birth to them somehow I think Kinzo's sin is so big he doesn't really deserve thankfulness. But maybe that's because I come from another culture.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I like it how he actually says in the EP8 manga that this On (a Japanese moral ethics concept -- simplified way too much you could say it demands for fvors to be always leveled out) he has towards the house of Ushiromiya can never be repaid in his lifetime. To which Kinzo just says that Genji should loosen up, which is kinda sad because they never seemed to have this conversation in real life.
Well, maybe they had a similar conversation but it never lead them anywhere as Genji never loosen up.

(Still I think BlackGenji is a theory who's even better than BlackBattler... but well, I guess that's just me... :P )

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
That is the one way we can see it. I think in Kumasawa's case that could actually be true...though on the other hand you have motherly Virgilia who is always looking out for her. Genji I think you can make the easiest case that he was just torn...based on the bit we got.
Nanjo and Kumasawa got way too few character to make much of it.
Well, the problem with Virgilia is she's mostly a fantasy based on Yasu's perception of Kumasawa. Yasu was happy when Kumasawa, instead than telling her she just dreamt Beatrice, encouraged her beliefs in magic. This didn't necessarily mean Kumasawa did the right thing for her, just that Yasu perceived it as such.
Kumasawa doesn't really seem to do much... or to do the right things... but she's doing something and this for Yasu must mean a lot.

Same for Genji whom Yasu considers as a father, even if in the end Genji took horrible choices for her and his loyalty went to Kinzo first.

That's real it would have been nice that the servants were developed more... but from what we can see Nanjo is prone at letting himself being bribed even into doing illegal things (hiding Beatrice, allowing Kinzo to rape his daughter and get away with it, hiding Yasu's survival, hiding Kinzo's death, taking part to Yasu's murder game...) so I really don't think greatly of him.

Kumasawa had some stuffs that weren't developed thought. I would be curious if she too, like Gohda, was supposed to be involved in a different plot and then the idea was dropped.

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As children, probably Krauss.

As adults, definitely Eva.
Why, if I can ask?
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Old 2014-03-03, 01:40   Link #34054
GoldenLand
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On a sidenote... guys who would you vote as the worse sibling among the 4? Not as the worse parent/businessman/human being, just as the worse sibling among the 4.
Confined just to them as siblings? Pending further information, I'd say Eva, on account of it being very likely that she was the one who started shooting Natsuhi and Krauss at Rokkenjima. Although there's a chance Rudolf might turn out just as bad or worse.

Gun-toting aside, I'd say Krauss. He's the eldest, he's embezzled money, and he's known to have always been a bully towards his younger siblings in order to feel superior and compensate for his inadequacies, including him echoing the sexism Kinzo directed towards Eva. I'm sure I remember him going over his faults towards his siblings at some point in the VN or the manga, with some feelings of regret, and he was right. He could probably have made things very different for his siblings, had he been more supportive. In particular, Eva and Rosa could have been a lot less messed up. Rudolf is a bit more of a mystery.

But, Eva and Rudolf were undoubtedly not angelic siblings either. Rosa...comes off by far the best among the siblings, since she had no opportunity to ever bully the elder ones and she was the most vulnerable of them.
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Old 2014-03-03, 08:10   Link #34055
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But maybe that's because I come from another culture.
Nah, I always find it difficult to apply such cultural holism to a group of people or individuals (even though I have been accused to do just that on occasions ).
We don't know what Ryukishi's immediate stance on this topic is, and considering that his positively painted characters often have a rather liberal view of family and identity, I think we shouldn't accuse him of expecting such behavior from Yasu or Genji.

I think at least the scenes in EP8 (especially the manga) are meant to show that Genji was never actually expected to adhere to all these crazy whims. His upbringing, his idea of family and his position just forced him to do so. He isn't referring to himself as furniture for nothing, his idea of himself is equally devaluing as Yasu's in a way.
Everything he did he did for Kinzo, in a very strange way he definitely loved him. Maybe not in the romantic sense (we leave that to the doujin) but at least as something like his oldest and closest friend without whom he might not even be alive today. In a way, when Kinzo died, he lost his raison d'etre and - as the endscroll of EP2 tells - longed for a peaceful sleep.

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(Still I think BlackGenji is a theory who's even better than BlackBattler... but well, I guess that's just me... :P )
Definitely not, I wouldn't be surprised if Genji was a vital piece in the puzzle. I just don't see him as the acting criminal. If he really wanted, he could have had the gold and the power all along, he even could have just taken his peaceful sleep by just blowing the island up with nobody having a clue.

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That's real it would have been nice that the servants were developed more... but from what we can see Nanjo is prone at letting himself being bribed even into doing illegal things (hiding Beatrice, allowing Kinzo to rape his daughter and get away with it, hiding Yasu's survival, hiding Kinzo's death, taking part to Yasu's murder game...) so I really don't think greatly of him.
Yeah, he is a pretty pitiful guy, but I think that was part of his characters. To have these people who still had relatives and show that even they didn't really care about what happened to them, showing that they might have not been the greatest people.
I kinda liked what Forgery of the Purple Logic did with Nanjo though, I could definitely see that happening

Quote:
Kumasawa had some stuffs that weren't developed thought. I would be curious if she too, like Gohda, was supposed to be involved in a different plot and then the idea was dropped.
Well, in a way she must have been, since she only became Virgilia by extension of the change happening to EP3 and the transformation of Land into Banquet.
If there was plans for her to have a meta-representation she might have been entirely different, maybe she was supposed to be Gaap in the beginning...that would actually make a HELL lot of sense.
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Old 2014-03-03, 08:19   Link #34056
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I kinda liked what Forgery of the Purple Logic did with Nanjo though, I could definitely see that happening
What did happen in Forgery of the Purple Logic? It looked as if it would be a fun manga when it came out, but since then there seems to have been a dearth of information.
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Old 2014-03-03, 08:24   Link #34057
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Gun-toting aside, I'd say Krauss. He's the eldest, he's embezzled money, and he's known to have always been a bully towards his younger siblings in order to feel superior and compensate for his inadequacies, including him echoing the sexism Kinzo directed towards Eva. I'm sure I remember him going over his faults towards his siblings at some point in the VN or the manga, with some feelings of regret, and he was right. He could probably have made things very different for his siblings, had he been more supportive. In particular, Eva and Rosa could have been a lot less messed up. Rudolf is a bit more of a mystery.
Hmmm... really? I was actually thinking Krauss is the best one (or, to be perfectly accurate, the les-of-an-ass) out of the siblings.

Granted, he made everybody's childhood not very fun, but at least he is the only one who seems to regret it in the end, plus he cares a lot about his family. Regardless of his relationship with Jessica being completely invisible throughout the series (they barely exchange any words at all in 8 huge EPs) the scene where he proposes a divorce with Natsuhi to take the fall all on his own (which is his responsibility) does redeem him a little bit. Yes, he did put the house on mortgage, but we can give him the fact that he is incompetent, he at least didn't screw his family up on purpose.

On the other hand, Rudolf! Just... Rudolf. He separated the mother from her child, and what is more, he forced it onto another woman just so he could get to sleep with both of them. I mean... yes. Putting everything else he did aside (like cheating on Asumu her whole life for example), that alone is enough to give him first place.

Eva and Rosa are also screwed up in thousands of different ways, sure, but well, Rosa negletcs her daughter and Eva is just being a bitch to everyone. Both of them are not such bad people deep, deep, deep inside, and anyway, they both are portrayed as much more scarred by their crappy childhood than Rudolf is. None of their wrongdoings are a match for what Rudolf did to Kyrie and Battler.
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Old 2014-03-03, 08:31   Link #34058
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Hmmm... really? I was actually thinking Krauss is the best one (or, to be perfectly accurate, the les-of-an-ass) out of the siblings.
No, Krauss is by no means the worst person out of the siblings. I'm reading JJ's question as being not about the siblings in their role as parents or as people in general, but solely confined to their role as siblings. That is, to their effects upon each other.
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Old 2014-03-03, 08:42   Link #34059
haguruma
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
What did happen in Forgery of the Purple Logic? It looked as if it would be a fun manga when it came out, but since then there seems to have been a dearth of information.
It's a fun concept that mainly let's Erika shine a little bit more.
There's the usual chain of murders, only that Shannon is on "vacation" and Kanon is dead on the first twilight, so everything is a little off. The combination of death's resembles EP3 a little bit, though Jessica and Natsuhi's death together was kinda surprising.

In the end it comes down to Eva, Battler, Erika and Nanjo and Battler seems to suspect Erika to be the culprit. Then he is murdered and Erika says she now has clarity who the culprit is.
For spoilers of the solution read on:
Spoiler for solution:
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Old 2014-03-03, 09:02   Link #34060
Captain Bluebeard
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No, Krauss is by no means the worst person out of the siblings. I'm reading JJ's question as being not about the siblings in their role as parents or as people in general, but solely confined to their role as siblings. That is, to their effects upon each other.
Oh, yeah, you're right. My bad.

Well then, as siblings I guess Krauss is pretty much the worst. Ironically, Rudolf seems to be the best sibling after Rosa, because well, except for occassionally bullying Rosa, he doesn't seem to bother with the others that much.
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