AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2014-04-21, 12:44   Link #34361
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Help?

While rereading Umineko I've noticed that Kanon goes to take something to cut the chain on Eva's room in the storehouse... which was supposely where the 6 corpses of the first twilight had been found and that had been closed by a new locked of whcih only Natsuhi should have the key. In short he could enter in the storehouse only with magic.

We know that the chain wasn't really set but Kanon has a wire cutter with himself when Natsuhi joins the party so that can't be a lie.

Is this a hint that Kanon had prepared the wire cutter in advance in some other place or we should assume that the main house have another storehouse? The manga doesn't specify where he get the wire cutter but it seems more like a huge closet inside the house...

Is there any difference in the PS3?
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-21, 15:52   Link #34362
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
I thought the wire cutters were kept in the boiler room, not the storage shed. In fact I thought Battler had to retrieve something from somewhere else in ep4 to open the storage shed.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-21, 16:58   Link #34363
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I thought the wire cutters were kept in the boiler room, not the storage shed. In fact I thought Battler had to retrieve something from somewhere else in ep4 to open the storage shed.
Well, here it says storehouse... that's why I'm confused. Shouldn't that be closed?

Quote:
Kumasawa accompanied Kanon, and they went to the storehouse. From amongst the tools packed in toolboxes and hanging on the walls, Kanon looked for a tool that could be used to cut the chain.
"What are you looking for...? ...I will help......"
"......We're cutting a door chain. ...Where was that large wire cutter..."
"A door chain...? Wh, why would you do something like that...?"
"............The chain to Eva-sama and Hideyoshi-sama's room. ...Even though they should be inside, when we called to them, they didn't answer."
It took Kumasawa some time to figure out how cutting the chain and Eva and Hideyoshi not answering were connected, but she did realize that this was an urgent situation.
"This will probably..."
Kanon took down a very large wire cutter that had been hanging on the wall.
It was called a cutter, but maybe it would be easier to understand if we said it was shaped like a large pair of pliers.
I guess they couldn't go to the boiler room ar they would have discovered Kinzo's body sooner than planned... wasn't he in the boiler room?

Of course it can also be they went in the boiler room to burn Kinzo and since they were at it took the wire cutter and then the narration said they went to the storehouse instead so that we won't immediately suspect they burned Kinzo... and the fact it says storehouse it's supposed to be a hint to understand that the scene played out differently.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-04-21 at 17:19.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-21, 18:07   Link #34364
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
That story was also a lie in the first place, so where the cutters were isn't terribly relevant. Plus they could just be wherever the plot decides they need to be, honestly. In ep1 they were in there, doesn't mean they have to be in every story.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-21, 19:33   Link #34365
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That story was also a lie in the first place, so where the cutters were isn't terribly relevant. Plus they could just be wherever the plot decides they need to be, honestly. In ep1 they were in there, doesn't mean they have to be in every story.
Well, my problem is that they can't be in the storehouse with the corpses as Kanon can't access to that place so I was wondering if there's another storehouse or I should take it as a hint that's a fantasy story (now I know that's a fantasy story but at my first reading I didn't). Back in Ep 1 we didn't know many things but if we were to stop and think at how Kanon couldn't go in the storehouse we would have realized immediately that his story was a lie and suspected about him.

It becomes very obvious, really. That's why it seems so weird to have such an obvious hint.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 03:20   Link #34366
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Whether we doubt or accept Battler's characterization though, we still have no idea what it was that he actually did during the weekend, and not knowing that is a pretty large question mark.
Very true, just that that's also the case for everybody else, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I just think his ep4 portrayal of "sit around and wait for everybody to get killed, screw up what little contact he has with anyone, not know what's going on" is unsatisfying on a literary level, and we know that at some point he at least has to have discovered the means to escape explosive death. Did he find it? Was he shown it? If so, who showed him the way? These seem like important questions.
Well ... he doesn't escape explosive death in EP4 ; anyone that might've guided or directed him to Kuwadorian, which he doesn't even know about, is dead.

If EP4 is unsatisfying for you, isn't that more to do with Alliance's basic structure than Battler's specific set of actions? It's barely set up as a mystery / puzzle at all, and even most of Will's solutions are kinda just "Yup, those people sure were murdered, alright. Definitely murdered, they were."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Interesting point though I'll argue Battler was sugar coating things in Ep 3 also where we see Krauss regretting the way he behaved with his siblings... when instead, if we're to believe to EP 7 Teaparty he wouldn't hesitate to bully them again not even for a moment and not even if he were to be in a desperate situation.
That's a bit unfair of a comparison, no?
In EP3, Krauss isn't an accomplice, and his siblings are being murdered at an alarming rate. In EP7 TP, his siblings are alive and well, and they're bickering over a large (LARGE) amount of money. Are these things really more at odds with one another than the fact that Battler is very rude and thinks poorly of his father, but is still upset when he's been killed? Dang, people can be multiufaceted, when the moment's right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Ergo it's possible to suspect about Battler... even if personally I think the chances he purposely murdered someone in Prime are extremely low as not even Eva seems to blame him of something.

LOL, I like the Battler culprit theory but honestly I don't think it's the right solution to Prime.
I agree that it's possible to suspect Battler, of course, but since it's so unsupported by the text at large, it mostly enters Black Battler territory, where he goes around molesting and killing people for ... ... the love of molesting and murdering people, y'know?

With the adult relatives, we already know that they're in desperate financial straits, are willing to do bad things for their own reasons, and for the most part aren't very attached to each other, emotionally. We already know Krauss is willing to break the law, we already know Kyrolf is willing to basically steal if they can get away with it, we already know Evayoshi is willing to blackmail their own relatives.

With the kids, though, they're really all portrayed as being better than all of that. George, Battler, and Jessica are basically just some really nice, well adjusted kids who more or less can get along with all their relatives, and don't hold the family headship with much regard. Eva might kill someone to be the family Head. Jessica would probs pay someone to take her place as the next one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yes, Battler can be said to "sugar-coat" things, but the other fictions are equally guilty of painting characters unrealistically ugly. Who are we "as outsiders" to say which of these was their true being? Why should Battler's image be wrong only because more people believe in their ugly sides?
Thing is, only Battler's EP8 game presented such an extreme. All the games before, we saw the relatives being kind but also occasionally cruel or petty. Desperate with the occasional streak of old fashioned honor. Battler's game is all rainbows and sunshine, all the time, and the plot has at numerous points made a whole plot out of how that's nice sometimes, but is basically a ploy to ignore reality when facing reality is uncomfortable.

It's sorta like ... even if someone had a good year, if they told you they never felt a single negative emotion, or had a single hard time for 24 hours a day, 365 straight days, you'd have a hard time believing it, right? Even if you'd agree they had a great year, it feels disingenuous to say that greatness was uninterrupted for so long. Even Battler admits his game is moreso for the sake of making Ange feel better than anything more than a superficial resemblance to reality, so...


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case?
To add a little to what Renall said, I won't pretend to know much about it, but I assume there's a certain period, before which it'd be considered really rude to play around with a true crime narrative. In Prime, it seems that never happened, and people were willing to discuss it like a fun hobby even though at least Eva, Ange, Sabakichi and Masayuki, and Erika's parents were still alive and just trying to get on with their lives.

I always felt crimes had to sorta fade away to being historical footnotes before people talk about them really casually, outside of, say, documentary's or something.

I watched AHS : Coven not too long ago and there was a character from the 1800s who was a serial killer, and I was surprised she was in fact a real person (well, based on one, at least), but I guess it's more "okay" to make a plot out of it since anyone related to those events has long, long since passed. In Prime, I imagive Rokkenjima would eventually become regarded the same way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, my problem is that they can't be in the storehouse with the corpses as Kanon can't access to that place so I was wondering if there's another storehouse or I should take it as a hint that's a fantasy story (now I know that's a fantasy story but at my first reading I didn't).
I think it's probably ... insignificant.

There's no mention of him stepping outside into the rain, or of the corpses, and the VN just says he grabbed the pliers and went "back up the stairs", so, with how large the mansion is sometimes implied to be, it's more likely than not that there's probably an extra room with some tools in it, moreso for the upkeep of the house than the upkeep of the garden (which the outside shed is for).

Of course, it is a fantasy scene, so ... I always thought the clue was the "sudden" appearance of the magic circle, given the unreasonably short time it's supposed to have been drawn in.

Last edited by Kealym; 2014-04-22 at 03:34.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 06:06   Link #34367
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It becomes very obvious, really. That's why it seems so weird to have such an obvious hint.
Well, that's kinda the method of a mystery novel: Having you go back and slap yourself silly over how in your face many of the things actually were. EP1 is actually really, really simple once you think about it. It is actually one of the simplest Episodes, but, since we didn't know yet what we were looking for, many elements escaped us.
She could have cut the chain the moment she murdered Eva and Hideyoshi (in that particular narrative) and nobody would be any wiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Battler's game is all rainbows and sunshine, all the time, and the plot has at numerous points made a whole plot out of how that's nice sometimes, but is basically a ploy to ignore reality when facing reality is uncomfortable.
Well, it is sorta meant to act as an opposite to Bern's rethoric about the murders and in that sense is of course really "squeaky clean" as Bern puts it. The funny thing is that this is highlighted by her under the terms of "yes, but it's a GM's job to show a one-sided account and the player's job to uncover the truth behind that"...so she already admits that she herself is doing the very same thing.

Bern's game and rethoric is equally guilty of "making it easy" since she paints all the relatives as horrible people who Ange doesn't have to feel guilty about judging. It's both kinda, sorta escapism.

Quote:
Even Battler admits his game is moreso for the sake of making Ange feel better than anything more than a superficial resemblance to reality, so...
Well, he actually says that it is for her to remember their hearts and souls, the "them that she didn't know or forgot about". I don't think that Battler was effectively lying about them - Bern also mentions how he removed the epitaph in order to remove the "igniting spark that sets off the tragedy" - he is simple showing an amlgamation of everything that got left out of public opinion post-1986.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
As a phenomenon? Not that different at all. As a discrete crime?
Well, I meant it less on a structural level of the crime but more on a structural level of the fictionalization and mediafication of the crime. For a closer resemblance to Rokkenjima you could take a very famous German case, that of the Hinterkaifeck murders, but I prefered the Zodiac as an example because of the vicinity of crime and mediafication of the events.
Hinterkaifeckt actually has quite the resemblence to Rokkenjima, with rumors of incest, a terrible patriarch, a child said to be the result of incest, the case still being unsolved, legends of ghosts haunting the property etc.
But, since in 1920s Germany the amount of genre-media was already shrinking due to the financial crisis and later on got completely pulled from the market due to the political climate, it took until the 70s before there was actual media on the case (not only newspaper rumors and folktales).

Quote:
To add a little to what Renall said, I won't pretend to know much about it, but I assume there's a certain period, before which it'd be considered really rude to play around with a true crime narrative.
On the contrary, the first movie on the Zodiac killer, actually titled The Zodiac Killer, was released in 1971...while the case was still very much in the process. There is not much that actually holds back such processes, especially TV movies, books and pop-magazines are really quick to report on these things.

Quote:
I watched AHS : Coven not too long ago
AHS is pretty fun, isn't it?
This reminds me, Lana Winters from AHS: Asylum is pretty much how I imagined Ikuko to be.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 07:55   Link #34368
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
That's a bit unfair of a comparison, no?
In EP3, Krauss isn't an accomplice, and his siblings are being murdered at an alarming rate. In EP7 TP, his siblings are alive and well, and they're bickering over a large (LARGE) amount of money. Are these things really more at odds with one another than the fact that Battler is very rude and thinks poorly of his father, but is still upset when he's been killed? Dang, people can be multiufaceted, when the moment's right.
Are we sure he isn't an accomplice? He and Natsuhi were lead out of the house. It might be they left on purpose.
Also in Ep 7 he basically started the bickering claiming he wanted a bigger share then the others and his title as head acknowledged despite having kept hidden Kinzo's death and not having really helped solving the epitaph. And when his siblings refused he blackmailed them saying he was the only one who could convert the gold so either they were to bow to him or wouldn't get nothing. This is pure greed at his worst because even with much, much less than an equal share to the one of his siblings he could have fixed his problems. With an equal share he still would have saved a lot. But no, he has to impose on them.

I'm not discussing the fact that people can be multifaced but the difference is that Battler is presented as a fundamentally good person who even cry by seeing George lose his parents. Krauss is more like Rosa. She's very sorry she beat her daughter and neglect her but... can't stop. And Krauss is very sorry he's a jerk to his siblings but... can't stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I agree that it's possible to suspect Battler, of course, but since it's so unsupported by the text at large, it mostly enters Black Battler territory, where he goes around molesting and killing people for ... ... the love of molesting and murdering people, y'know?

With the adult relatives, we already know that they're in desperate financial straits, are willing to do bad things for their own reasons, and for the most part aren't very attached to each other, emotionally. We already know Krauss is willing to break the law, we already know Kyrolf is willing to basically steal if they can get away with it, we already know Evayoshi is willing to blackmail their own relatives.

With the kids, though, they're really all portrayed as being better than all of that. George, Battler, and Jessica are basically just some really nice, well adjusted kids who more or less can get along with all their relatives, and don't hold the family headship with much regard. Eva might kill someone to be the family Head. Jessica would probs pay someone to take her place as the next one.
While personally I think that it's unlikely the kids would kill for the heck of it they declare to be more or less ready to do so if someone were to threaten/kill their loved ones. Jessica in particular is prone to jump on people first and think after. I don't know how much good Jessica is with her punches but George knows fighting arts and Battler is pretty strong and is hinted he got into fights with others.

In Ep 3 Jessica is blinded by mistake because she jumped on Eva thinking she was the culprit. In Ep 4 Jessica and George kill each other by mistake while thinking to fight the culprit. While Ep 6 seems to paint them as killers, it can be a metaphor to say that they would fight to protect those they love.

So if something happened while the adults were in the gold room (for example the servants faking being dead) or after Kyrie and Rudolf left it (for example they tell the cousins an incident took place and they don't believe them) the cousins could have gotten into an argument among themselves or with them and this might have lead to an increasing in the dead count.

Of course it can also be that Rudolf and Kyrie get out and shoot everyone as Ep 7 hinted. I'm not sure we'll even know what had happened because the only one who might know (but also might not) is Battler/Tohya but he claims he doesn't remember things well... and anyway if things went like in the TEaparty he saw nothing. For him everyone was free to go around and shoot people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Thing is, only Battler's EP8 game presented such an extreme. All the games before, we saw the relatives being kind but also occasionally cruel or petty. Desperate with the occasional streak of old fashioned honor. Battler's game is all rainbows and sunshine, all the time, and the plot has at numerous points made a whole plot out of how that's nice sometimes, but is basically a ploy to ignore reality when facing reality is uncomfortable.
In a way Battler's game fits how he wanted to think at people. Right in Ep 1 Battler reasons things, with Kyrie, with Eva, with himself and acknowledges there's not a 19 person. However when he sees Eva and Natsuhi arguing on how Natsuhi could be the culprit he gets so impressed by it he refuses the possibility the culprit is one of the 18 and start to wonder if it's possible that the number of the people is 18,5 somehow. as he knows this is absurd he slowly ends up refusing the idea that one of the 18 is the culprit and tries his best to prove there's a 19 person.

Battler insisted into presenting over and over all the people there as nice ones and defending them all. He doesn't search a culprit, he search a way to absolve the 18. Ep 8 is, I guess, his way. In Ep 8 everyone is the nice person Battler saw him or her to be. Sure they have some flaws (Rudolf still switched the baby, Eva and Krauss still argue, Natsuhi still killed the servant, Rosa is still not a good mother) but in Ep 8 they all want to overcome the flaws they probably acknowleged in their heart but never fought actively. Kinzo makes peace with his kids, Eva resolves her conflict with Krauss, Rudolf tells the truth and Kyrie forgives him, Rosa gets along with her daughter.
Battler don't view them as bad people but as good people with various flaws who needed a chance to set things right and fix things among them so he basically removes all the pressure they could have from lack of money and hiding a corpse and place them together in a nice setting.
In a way it's a picture filled with love and trust in his relatives and it could be that things weren't so bad before everyone ended up needing money. Maybe that's how he remembers them when he visited them at 12 or younger.

It's not that they don't have negative emotions ever, it's that they admit they HAD them but now they want to overcome them because there's no reason to have them.

Ange simply couldn't picture them wanting to make peace but for Battler, who decided after 6 years to try and make peace with his father and that Ange remembers playing with Rudolf and getting along with Kyrie, it should have been easier to think if given the chance they would realize their mistakes and make up.

The real obvious lie is that actually they were under a lot of stress generated by money problems, Kinzo's actions, Krauss' fraud and likely didn't feel like making up at all. They were in the middle of a desperate argument and so they ended up behaving at their worst. Battler removes the argument and so they behave at their best. His game is not a complete absurdity... it's more like a possibility lost, like Natsuhi accepting to raise Lion and becoming a good mother for him.

Differently from Bern we can picture many settings in which she would have accepted to do so, starting from Kinzo acting nicely to her already having a child... or simply missing the chance to toss Lion off a cliff and slowly growing fond of him.

They aren't absurd possibilities... they're just possibilities that won't take place because in the past things went different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, that's kinda the method of a mystery novel: Having you go back and slap yourself silly over how in your face many of the things actually were. EP1 is actually really, really simple once you think about it. It is actually one of the simplest Episodes, but, since we didn't know yet what we were looking for, many elements escaped us.
She could have cut the chain the moment she murdered Eva and Hideyoshi (in that particular narrative) and nobody would be any wiser.
LOL, if that was a clue left on purpose this means as soon as I'm going to re-read Ep 2 I'm going to search for another obvious one. I love this sort of things!

Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-04-22 at 08:49.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 08:44   Link #34369
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
On the contrary, the first movie on the Zodiac killer, actually titled The Zodiac Killer, was released in 1971...while the case was still very much in the process. There is not much that actually holds back such processes, especially TV movies, books and pop-magazines are really quick to report on these things.
The thing about Zodiac is that it's similar to Rokkenjima inasmuch as there was some kind of metafiction created and presented for media and public consumption which raised the profile of the case. In the latter case it was (apparently) accidental, with the message bottle stories creating the perception that Rokkenjima played host to a classical murder mystery (and that's probably also where people took the form of it from in-universe when making their assumptions). In the case of Zodiac, the killer actually sent encoded letters to the police and, more importantly, the press.

A serial killer who doesn't announce themselves builds up momentum more slowly, particularly if there isn't some mystique to the case. Zodiac very much intentionally wanted that mystique to build quickly, hence the letters. The phenomenon probably took off in particular because he both taunted police and didn't get caught right away (or ever, really). Compare this with Ted Bundy, who was trying not to get caught and whose mystique probably never would have peaked if he hadn't been revealed to be a charming and handsome man who didn't seem the type to commit dozens of murders.

A more recent example of a quick buildup of public interest would be the D.C. Sniper case. The mystique of the killings there came from the audacity of them, that someone was shooting at people with a high-powered rifle in broad daylight. It began to die down once they identified and caught the shooters because they hadn't done much to either fan the flames while still doing the killings (as Zodiac did) and didn't turn out to be someone surprising or unexpected (as Bundy was).

Rokkenjima has seemingly-unintentional parallels with the Zodiac case in the sense of the phenomenon and meta-fiction surrounding it, so I think it's an apt comparison on that level. An unsolved mystery with a bunch of unexpected elements (in this case, literal "message in a bottle confessions" that don't confess to anything) would probably trigger the public's imaginations quickly and it would be a constantly-revisited case for years and years thereafter. They'd almost certainly make movies about it, at least at some point. By 2000 or so I doubt anyone would even consider it to be rude to speculate on it and I'm honestly not even that surprised that it blew up in the late 80s either. The only unrealistic thing the story suggests about the Rokkenjima enthusiasts is that they'd ever stop.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 09:17   Link #34370
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Guys, let's enjoy the last spoiler of Ep 8 Confession of the golden witch Part 3.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
I'll kill to get my hands on the last chapters of Ep 8!
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 09:30   Link #34371
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
That's a gorgeous piece of art. What a great expression!

I can only imagine what sort of interesting new info we'll be getting when spoilers for the chapter's content come out.
GoldenLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 10:31   Link #34372
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
That's a gorgeous piece of art. What a great expression!

I can only imagine what sort of interesting new info we'll be getting when spoilers for the chapter's content come out.
Well, since it's still 'confession' there's not much to say unless Sayo survived the massacre long enough to write down what happened during those 2 days before the island went KABOOM!

In this case we won't need Tohya/Battler to tell us the truth and if Ikuko found the bottle prior to finding him it might explain why she decided he wasn't dangerous but that also needed to be kept hidden. Sorta.

I still think Ange deserved to have what remained of her brother back but maybe in Yasu's tale she wrote Eva thought him to be the culprit/an accomplice to the culprits and if he were to show up she would have had him arrested or killed?
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 11:42   Link #34373
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, since it's still 'confession' there's not much to say unless Sayo survived the massacre long enough to write down what happened during those 2 days before the island went KABOOM!

In this case we won't need Tohya/Battler to tell us the truth and if Ikuko found the bottle prior to finding him it might explain why she decided he wasn't dangerous but that also needed to be kept hidden. Sorta.

I still think Ange deserved to have what remained of her brother back but maybe in Yasu's tale she wrote Eva thought him to be the culprit/an accomplice to the culprits and if he were to show up she would have had him arrested or killed?
Would it be too far fetched to claim that Ikuko "finding" the "confession" was a fantasy scene?
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 11:59   Link #34374
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Would it be too far fetched to claim that Ikuko "finding" the "confession" was a fantasy scene?
Honestly I don't know. The Confession is in Featherine's library and in Tohya's memories so I think that a 'Confession of the Golden Witch' existed.
If Ikuko isn't Yasu it's also needed to explain how she could know everything.

The way she found it though might have been different from the way it was depicted according to the spoilers. But I think we need to see the scene prior to judging it.

I found odd how the paper on which the confession was written was red instead than white but red paper exists or it could have been white paper that got dirtied in blood so... so far we can't really say...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 12:30   Link #34375
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Honestly I don't know. The Confession is in Featherine's library and in Tohya's memories so I think that a 'Confession of the Golden Witch' existed.
If Ikuko isn't Yasu it's also needed to explain how she could know everything.
Also, considering it a fantasy-scene is basically going back to the whole "let's refuse everything" schtick. What good would it be to completely lie about this?
What I do consider somehow is that the "bottle message written on blood red paper" might actually be a representation of Battler himself who told her everything.

Though...rethinking it, the text you found said that this bottle as well was tossed before the actual incident

But yes, we need to see the scene to actually judge it
One more week and I can!!!!
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 12:31   Link #34376
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
"Red paper" is clearly a literary device, meaning that essentially all contents of the document are of the same weight as red truth. Which honestly more than anything would kind of suggest a fantasy of a sort. However the only thing "a message bottle containing the confession found by the side of the road" could really be a stand-in for would be Battler's memories and receiving the confession in some manner through that. And that would obviously say a few things about Battler's memories, as to have been derived from him he'd have to have learned them somehow.

Or maybe she just found a bottle coincidentally containing straight answers instead of a story and never told anyone because people wanted answers so let's Deus Ex Machina shoehorn them in Ikuko's story is already pretty heavy on coincidence, so what's a little more?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 14:38   Link #34377
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Also, considering it a fantasy-scene is basically going back to the whole "let's refuse everything" schtick. What good would it be to completely lie about this?
What I do consider somehow is that the "bottle message written on blood red paper" might actually be a representation of Battler himself who told her everything.
Yes, the bottle might be an 'embellishment' of what Ikuko really found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Though...rethinking it, the text you found said that this bottle as well was tossed before the actual incident
If it was tossed before the incident then it can't contain the truth of what happened during those two days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But yes, we need to see the scene to actually judge it
One more week and I can!!!!
Lucky you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Red paper" is clearly a literary device, meaning that essentially all contents of the document are of the same weight as red truth. Which honestly more than anything would kind of suggest a fantasy of a sort.
Honestly if that's the case I would have preferred written in red ink. It would still be red truth but it would make it look less odd that written on red pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
However the only thing "a message bottle containing the confession found by the side of the road" could really be a stand-in for would be Battler's memories and receiving the confession in some manner through that. And that would obviously say a few things about Battler's memories, as to have been derived from him he'd have to have learned them somehow.
Unless Ikuko found Yasu and Battler but Yasu was mortally wounded and managed only to tell her her story before dying as some sort of atonement? Or message to pass to Battler?

In this case the sinking of the magic scene would be more like fainting due to her wounds. Battler tries to save her but can't. However he loses memory so he's sort with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Or maybe she just found a bottle coincidentally containing straight answers instead of a story and never told anyone because people wanted answers so let's Deus Ex Machina shoehorn them in Ikuko's story is already pretty heavy on coincidence, so what's a little more?
I honestly don't like the idea that there was a bottle the story never hinted at (as so far the story only hinted at Yasu tossing her tales in the sea, not her own story without magic involved) that coincidentally was found by Ikuko that coincidentally found Battler as well that coincidentally decided to hide him and bribe the doctor, that was a writer so she could conenct with Battler/Tohya and yadda, yadda yadda, have your fun with the coincidentally.

I mean... it makes sense but I'm really finding hard to swallow how coincidentally an Italian submarine filled with gold and with a beautiful Italian woman ended up in Japan and not in Spain so really, I would apprecciate if the explanation of stuffs that don't make sense avoided coincidences that feel like miracles.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 15:54   Link #34378
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
I am merely trying to evaluate, if this would kill the Ikuko=Yasu theory or not. But I guess to know it for sure we will have to see the scene(s) for ourselves somehow.


So on one hand we have the "bad implications" created by Yasu being Ikuko... on the other hand we have "endless nine coincidences"-RandomStranger. I am not sure if this can end well... but oh well this game will have no happy ending after all.
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 16:57   Link #34379
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I honestly don't like the idea that there was a bottle the story never hinted at (as so far the story only hinted at Yasu tossing her tales in the sea, not her own story without magic involved)
Well, the basic idea that stories were tossed in the sea exists though, and since the stories are a weird form of confession anyway, it isn't completely impossible that there would be a confessional letter among them.
What I would agree with is that there should either be a letter, Battler at the shore, or Battler with a bottle on the shore...but both events as separate incidents seems too much of a coincidence, there I agree.

Quote:
that coincidentally was found by Ikuko that coincidentally found Battler as well that coincidentally decided to hide him and bribe the doctor, that was a writer so she could conenct with Battler/Tohya and yadda, yadda yadda, have your fun with the coincidentally.
Well, here it depends how we read the story...whether we accept the meta-world as existent or not. Featherine says that Ikuko was her being written into the story. The question here is, whether this means that Ikuko is a complete work of magic, a literal deus ex machina, or that Featherine uses Ikuko as her conduit to the human world and Ikuko still exists as a human despite that.

The manga is yet to develop on that whole story, which will either follow right after the Confession of the Golden Witch arc or at the end of the manga, I suppose.
The VN also mentioned how Ikuko was an outcast, thrown out of her own family, so if she at least suspected who Battler was it might have become an incentive for her to hide him from the start.

Quote:
I mean... it makes sense but I'm really finding hard to swallow how coincidentally an Italian submarine filled with gold and with a beautiful Italian woman ended up in Japan and not in Spain so really, I would apprecciate if the explanation of stuffs that don't make sense avoided coincidences that feel like miracles.
Well, I didn't find the submarine story all that hard to swallow. It's not like it is impossible, though a little weird considering that there was a war going on in the Pacific and that Roosevelt had apparently authorized the sinking of any Axis vessel in Pacific waters. With a little luck the way is very likely and Italians after 1943 would have avoided Spain like hell, since this was exactly the place where they would have been killed.

The story of them fleeing to Japan isn't that hard to swallow, a WWII vessel would have also likely been able to make the distance via the sea-channels connecting Eurasia...the only thing demanding a little miracle was the situation in the Pacific, especially around Southern Japan at that time.

And since the name of the witch is Beatrice and Kinzo was said to have made a pact with her during the war...it was actually pretty obvious that she must have been an Italian woman.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-04-22, 18:52   Link #34380
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, the basic idea that stories were tossed in the sea exists though, and since the stories are a weird form of confession anyway, it isn't completely impossible that there would be a confessional letter among them.
What I would agree with is that there should either be a letter, Battler at the shore, or Battler with a bottle on the shore...but both events as separate incidents seems too much of a coincidence, there I agree.
While not impossible I find it quite a jump. The stories are 'confessions' written in a very coded way. You might guess the culprit but not all the backstory. "Confession" presents itself as a mere retelling of Sayo's life with all the details about the backstory and the solution... if it's going to present a mystery after this.
In Confession you must not guess the culprit, you've Sayo's heart presented so that you can judge it.

I admit it's not the first jump in Umineko... but as this is sort of important I would have apprecciated if it was foreshadowed better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, here it depends how we read the story...whether we accept the meta-world as existent or not. Featherine says that Ikuko was her being written into the story. The question here is, whether this means that Ikuko is a complete work of magic, a literal deus ex machina, or that Featherine uses Ikuko as her conduit to the human world and Ikuko still exists as a human despite that.

The manga is yet to develop on that whole story, which will either follow right after the Confession of the Golden Witch arc or at the end of the manga, I suppose.
The VN also mentioned how Ikuko was an outcast, thrown out of her own family, so if she at least suspected who Battler was it might have become an incentive for her to hide him from the start.
Well, the manga already told us the bit in which Ikuko picked up Tohya so a real person calling herself Ikuko and rescuing Tohya either existed or is his delusion... which can explain why she doesn't seem to age. But if Ikuko is a delusion the not aging part is the only hint... and it could be that instead it was a hint to imply that actually Ange never became Yukari and that meeting never took place but was merely written in a tale.

So yes, let's wait and see how things will go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, I didn't find the submarine story all that hard to swallow. It's not like it is impossible, though a little weird considering that there was a war going on in the Pacific and that Roosevelt had apparently authorized the sinking of any Axis vessel in Pacific waters. With a little luck the way is very likely and Italians after 1943 would have avoided Spain like hell, since this was exactly the place where they would have been killed.
Nope. After 8/Sept/1943 a part of the Italian ships that didn't want to end in American or German hands reached Spanish territory. As Spain was neutral they couldn't hand them to either party so the ships were basically stopped there, not under control of Spain but not free to leave and remained there until the end of the war.
Italian sailors had a certain freedom and could come and go from the ships provided they didn't try to get to far and were free to move for the city.

This would have allowed to hide the gold on the submarine till the end of the war as Spain couldn't take possession of it nor inspect the ship. Also since the sailors had a certain freedom they could try to move it ingot by ingot secretly.

Spain was also close to Italy and so comfortable to reach and Spanish-Italian relations weren't bad despite Spain being neutral so the sailors didn't risk being mistreated.

Going to Japan included a risky travel and since Japan was at war and about to lose it the risk that the gold would end in American hands anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And since the name of the witch is Beatrice and Kinzo was said to have made a pact with her during the war...it was actually pretty obvious that she must have been an Italian woman.
Ep 7 mentions Rubens, an Italian soldier... only he doesn't have an Italian name.
Kinzo's children and grandchildren all have English sounding names.

After Virgilia shows up you can easily guess that the name might have been chosen as a reference to the Divina Commedia and can assume it's not necessary of an Italian person but of the child of a Divina Commedia reader like Kinzo or just a coincidence of which anime have plenty.

(I won't go into how Beatrice is pronunced in the Japanese way and not in the Italian way because that's a standard in Japanese media)

Honestly my main suspicious on Umineko involving Italians were due to the huge amount of Italian lyrics in the songs... though there are other series with Italian text in the lyrics and no relation with Italy.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.