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Old 2014-04-24, 08:22   Link #34401
Renall
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
At least that can be explained a bit better by the next line as Yasu being so nuts at this point that she thought everyone connected to the Ushiromiyas should just die.

I'm going to have to read that translation a bunch of times more. It's a bit hard for it to sink in. There's definitely a blurring of reality and the bottle stories going on there. She wrote her stories in a frenzied state, certainly, but how much of it she brought into reality or was capable of bringing into reality I don't know. She does sound villainous there.
It strikes me as an obvious parallel to Maria's "therapy" in ep4. Imagining killing the people who have wronged her, wringing out all the negative emotions, and maybe going a bit too far for the sake of trying to prevent the pain from settling in. She outright says (to paraphrase) "I'm imagining these things as if they were real." Maria did the same thing, but would she have actually murdered her mother? Ever? I doubt it.

Plus note she can't exactly come up with justifications for the people she loves most. She knows if she were capable of going through with this plan that she'd have to do it, but can she really be so cold as to kill Jessica and George? I mean maybe she thinks Maria is better off dead and maybe she thinks Battler wronged her by not returning, but what did those two ever do to her? She's already acknowledged previously that the fault in those instances was hers. If she's being honest with herself (and we know she's capable of it), she can't easily justify that. It's one thing to write about yourself as being capable of such an act, and quite another to actually do it. Particularly when you want someone to stop you.

Also, assuming the translation is accurate, we have a rather... curious set of lines here:
Quote:
That is why each and every one of these bottles contains a confession of my sins.
Repentance for my sins that would not exist had I not written them down.
She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.

I mean, if she actually did what she believed she could do, it'd be odd to say her sins wouldn't have existed without this sequence. She could easily have decided to commit murder and then done so, and that would be the sin. Plus this part in the manga comes after all those previous parts about the BoOT and whatnot, so from a dramatic standpoint it really makes no sense to play up the depths of her despair and the extent of her planning and her desire to be stopped by Battler if the endgame is just "Yeah and then the adults killed everyone for money and Battler never even did anything."

Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2014-04-24, 09:03   Link #34402
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.
Yes, this line intrigued me as well and I was wondering how to translate it best.
It is vague even in the original Japanese and I think there are several ways to read these.
1) The most boring one: By writing them down she gave her plan a clear form that can be traced back later and her Golden Land can technically be destroyed. If she were just to make the bomb explode then "her crime" would be non-existent in a way as well.
2) The more likely one: Since she keeps claiming in this chapter that she went mad over writing these but at the same time couldn't stop anymore, it is quite likely that she blames herself for backing herself into this corner. If she hadn't imagined it again and again then her mindset would have never become like this.
3) The poetic one: She knows deep down that she is unable to commit these crimes and will likely fail or be foiled, but she still cannot back down and hopes that her sin might be discovered because it even comes into existence on more than paper.
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Old 2014-04-24, 17:27   Link #34403
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
Yeah, there's lots of furniture angst piled up there, but what I'm getting at is... it's unnatural and highly questionable. This mindest is way too convenient. What made him think of himself that way? What exactly was his relationship with Kinzo in the first place? It looks as though Ryukishi forgot to mention anything about him in 7 entire Episodes and in the end came with 'oh, yeah, Kinzo and I are bffs, he saved my life once, good times, good times'.

Quote:
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...
The worst thing is, he doesn't seem to be saying 'who am I to speak up to my master? Wardrobes don't talk'. What he seems to suggest is that it is Yasu's right to do all of this, and he's perfectly cool with it.

Quote:
But what doesn't make sense here is, this wouldn't be the story Sayo would write for her message bottles. She wrote Yasuda Sayo, the Golden Witch of Rokkenjima as the culprit of her tales in order to be found, tried and judged, either by the person she loved or a person who understands her. If she actually considered a story where somebody was to ursurp her plan...that wouldn't make much sense thematically.
I don't think Sayo is the author of Banquet (I didn't really see anything in Confession suggesting it, actually). Plus it's sort of said that it is a forgery by Hachijo, and I think Beatrice says in EP8 that only two of her message bottles reached the shore, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

But putting that aside, having the epitaph solved and herself renduced to 'furniture' to whomever solves it is amongst the possible results the rulette may bring. Perhaps seeing that outcome as well is also important to understanding the depths of her madness and determination. Since she has come this far, she is willing to follow the rules to the very end.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.
I'd also really like to see that, but I doubt we are going to....

Aside from the fact that I am totally against the adults money-slaughter, Battler's account of the events is essential. Exactly how did he escape from the island? Doesn't it seem too convenient for him to be unable to recall anything about it? If we can trust the narrative of EP8, Yasu showed him to the underground passage and helped him escape, he must have had questions about it, so how did she respond?

I refuse to believe Battler just stood around while people died and then coincidentally found himself being the only survivor (much like Kinzo in the war...)
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Old 2014-04-24, 20:38   Link #34404
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?
Battler saw golden butterflies at 11:30 in Ep 2... meaning he was going to die at midnight.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
uhm... when did Yasu write Banquet after finding out that Eva survived? I don't think she had much time for that until dying...

And I hope this is no "she accidently guessed right that Eva may be the only survivor". That would be a bit too much of a "coincidence", even for the Umineko scale.


And so we another point that makes the RandomStrangerIkuko theory retroactively less likely, although it was seemingly the most likely possibility until now...
The messages were tossen in the sea prior to Eva reaching Rokkenjima so... if she's the author of Banquet it's just a coincidence in it Eva survived... which in a way is a rather cruel destiny as she's left alone. Like for Sayo solving the epitaph took everything away from her.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Gohda got hired for a job on the island, what a bastard! He deserves to die for that!
There's to wonder if actually there's more to Gohda's job than we know. Or was Gohda maybe blackmailing Natsuhi or something?

Because if it was just a job of course Gohda would want to get paid. The fact that getting personal gain here seems to be seen as negative makes me think there's more than what it seems. Maybe Gohda's true nature was revealed in a missing page and here we get a 'summary' that we can't really comprehend.

We know that originally Gohda should have had a relation with Natsuhi and that the plan was scrapped... but maybe not as completely as we think...

On the other side Yasu could be merely referring to all the times Gohda put her in a bad spot to take advantage of it and shine in Natsuhi's eyes.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Looking at that in a certain way, that sounds as if she's planning to become like Genji. Someone who would accept anything, throw away all of her emotions, and so on. (Genji = one of the world's worst role models) There's more to it than that, certainly, and maybe she's thinking that a happily ever after with one of her love interests could theoretically happen, but the way she phrased that does give me pause to think.
Well, she sounds like those people who're basically begging for something: "Please, do this and I'll be your slave." It sounds rather pitiful and desperate.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them.
Well, I honestly don't like that rule much expecially because in Ep 2 it becomes: half a hour before dying even the point of view of the detective isn't objective anymore and he can see magic. I preferred for the scene in Ep 2 to be explained with "Battler was drunk, fell asleep and dreamt all that before dying" or "he gave up so he wasn't the detective anymore" than "I've decided to push him into a fantasy scene because in half a hour he'll be dead".
It's a matter of fact he sees golden butterflies half a hour before dying but how could we know his point of view wasn't reliable anymore? Especially when this doesn't happen in Ep 1 (VN version because the anime shows them...), Ep 3 & 4.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
At least the EP8 manga says that none of people who discovered the First Twilight had any hand in murdering people or creating the locked room scenario. I still think that EP3 was not in the closest sense written by Yasu as a tale like Legend and Turn.
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.
  • Since Rudolph and Kyrie don't die early on, are they accomplicees?
  • The witch illusion doesn't even come into existence
  • The epitaph is solved yet she does not stop
My solution for Ep 3 is that Eva (and Rosa) didn't solve the epitaph, Eva was bribed by handing them the solution to the epitaph. Rosa was alternatively bribed or followed Eva secretly, ergo she too didn't solve anything.

In Our confession Yasu had no problems showing the gold to Krauss and Natsuhi so it can be here she showed it to Eva and that's represented by 'young Eva' helping Eva solving the epitaph. 'Young Eva' claims she's not Eva and have no qualms killing Hideyoshi and George. My guess is that Sayo this time hid not behing the illusion of Beatrice but behind the illusion of Eva Beatrice.

I guess Rudolf and Kyrie could have been bribed into being accomplices. The same happens in Ep 4 where Kyrie is clearly an accomplice.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Of course I will share all that stuff. Also working on something else related to EP8.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, in that scene she is talking about how there are all these tricks (and the page-break implies that she mentions more on the pages we don't see) and she doesn't even know which ones to pick for each story. So if Ikuko actually found this message bottle "Confession of the Golden Witch" or it is something that "Battler" knew, then they could have used these tricks in their stories just as well.

Though we'll have to wait till more is revealed, since this would create a slight inconsistency with Battler/Tohya realizing the truth during EP5. Unless of course Ikuko is a real bitch and didn't even show him that confession when creating Banquet and Alliance.
I'm toying with the idea that Ikuko had confession (since she was on her table when Tohya starts remembering and faints) but didn't show it to him and just used it to create plots with Tohya as if they were her own.

I've been wondering if this can be represented by MetaErika who wanted to become the witch of truth and GM and that tried to do so by using Battler also while Battler was busy finding a way out of the logic error (which could be compared to Tohya finding a way through his memories?)

Maybe Ikuko wasn't as bad as Erika but if the whole thing is just symbolism it can work... I guess.

Alternatively it could be represented by Lambda who claimed she understood Beato's game but ended up making a loveless game.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And that is probably exactly what went wrong.
We see her practically breaking down in tears when writing about killing George and Jessica. She is so delusional about the idea that it would definitely be Battler who solves the epitaph...
But I think the biggest mistake she made was, thinking that the person arriving at the underground VIP room would definitely turn off the bomb and let everybody survive. That was the biggest inconsistency in her own reasoning.
Well, turning off a bomb would be the most logic thing to do... hadn't dead people be involved and the dying started due to an incident and then escalated.

Honestly I think the mistake was to write Beatrice's letter in such way. She wanted it to help and yet it likely does the opposite.
Battler isn't interested in the gold that much so, beyond pocking at it for the fun of it, he likely didn't pay much attention to the epitaph.
Once the letter arrives the relatives make a horrible show of themselves and that's what takes away most of his focus.
When the murders start he has more important things in his mind than the epitaph.

In fact Battler solves the epitaph (or better is made to solve it but we don't know how much of the solution come from him and how much was suggested to him) the time in which the letter doesn't arrive because the atmosphere is more relaxed and there's someone with whom to play at solving it. Still he's having fun at playing with the epitaph until he realizes the implications of solving it.

Yasu wanted Battler to solve the epitaph but basically challenged him in the wrong way. At least that's what happens in the games.
In Prime it might be Battler too solved the epitaph only... after the adults solved it.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, it is not his position to judge his mistress' decision what to do with the household since he is only furniture. It's not like this was not foreshadowed more than enough.
But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved...
That's not just he gave up on life. Apparently they claimed they wanted Sayo to be happy. She's not. Actually I think it would be hard for her to be after they told her the truth in such a nice way but what's worse is it seems no one is helping her to cope.

She can't take it anymore and she tells Genji and all he does is telling her 'ok, go on'? We know she wanted to be stopped. As older and wiser and responsible for the situation, shouldn't he have tried to help his mistress instead than just calling himself out? Shouldn't he at least have tried to make her reason?

She was internally screaming for help, if he had done something, if he had given her hope, if he had given her emotional support maybe the pressure on her would have decreased and she would have changed her plans.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I actually stumbled over a page I failed to translate
This seems to be the final page of the Confession-arc:
Spoiler for Translation:


It really paints a sad picture of a woman who got so caught up in her delusions that she became unable to think of anything else, she couldn't stand one more day without thinking of putting an end to this horrible family...and looking at her life that is really kinda tragic since she herself was the one who became unable to see things with love and she knew it.
Thank you for translating this also!

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It strikes me as an obvious parallel to Maria's "therapy" in ep4. Imagining killing the people who have wronged her, wringing out all the negative emotions, and maybe going a bit too far for the sake of trying to prevent the pain from settling in. She outright says (to paraphrase) "I'm imagining these things as if they were real." Maria did the same thing, but would she have actually murdered her mother? Ever? I doubt it.

Plus note she can't exactly come up with justifications for the people she loves most. She knows if she were capable of going through with this plan that she'd have to do it, but can she really be so cold as to kill Jessica and George? I mean maybe she thinks Maria is better off dead and maybe she thinks Battler wronged her by not returning, but what did those two ever do to her? She's already acknowledged previously that the fault in those instances was hers. If she's being honest with herself (and we know she's capable of it), she can't easily justify that. It's one thing to write about yourself as being capable of such an act, and quite another to actually do it. Particularly when you want someone to stop you.
Personally I don't think she had the will to kill. She would break before doing it and, if she were to manage it, it would be more by accident, because she tried, failed but then someone jumped on her while she was still holding the gun and the gun ended up shooting by mistake.

If she starts crying while writing of killing people it's really hard to assume she would manage to stay emotionless while doing it. Especially in Ep 2 where Jessica is killed pretty early on.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also, assuming the translation is accurate, we have a rather... curious set of lines here:

She appears to be saying that the sins she has committed are of imagining these events. This reminds me of that scene in the VN where Battler says she hasn't sinned in "this world" in response to Beatrice mentioning all the sins she's committed countless times. I think there was also some bit earlier in the manga about "a girl who imagined a tragedy" or something to that effect.

I mean, if she actually did what she believed she could do, it'd be odd to say her sins wouldn't have existed without this sequence. She could easily have decided to commit murder and then done so, and that would be the sin. Plus this part in the manga comes after all those previous parts about the BoOT and whatnot, so from a dramatic standpoint it really makes no sense to play up the depths of her despair and the extent of her planning and her desire to be stopped by Battler if the endgame is just "Yeah and then the adults killed everyone for money and Battler never even did anything."

Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.
I wonder if the whole part about the sin ties in with her religious beliefs and the fact that even planning to sin for many religions is a sin.

By following Yasu's mindset it could be that she viewed the tragedy that resulted as a consequence of her own sins even if in the end she did nothing and wouldn't have managed to do nothing.

She's pretty stressing on how Battler is sinning by not remembering his 'promise' (by the way in the translation of Ep 7 the word "promise" is never mentioned even if there's to say he told her with certain that he woul come back next year so maybe this was enough for her) and how this sin is the cause of everything so maybe she judged with equal severity the fact she fantasized over committing a crime.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yeah, there's lots of furniture angst piled up there, but what I'm getting at is... it's unnatural and highly questionable. This mindest is way too convenient. What made him think of himself that way? What exactly was his relationship with Kinzo in the first place? It looks as though Ryukishi forgot to mention anything about him in 7 entire Episodes and in the end came with 'oh, yeah, Kinzo and I are bffs, he saved my life once, good times, good times'.
Yes, Genji would need some more development. I can understand he maybe was traumatized by what happened prior to Kinzo saving him and that make him feel so indebted to Kinzo but we see that he's capable of hiding Yasu and claiming he wants her happy to then... bow down completely to her wills? Put safe bullets in the guns and break down the explosive mechanism at least Genji if you haven't the guts to talk to her!
Ask someone to help her!

No, really, Genji's character development is poor so maybe his actions make sense but I can't see it very well.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'd also really like to see that, but I doubt we are going to....

Aside from the fact that I am totally against the adults money-slaughter, Battler's account of the events is essential. Exactly how did he escape from the island? Doesn't it seem too convenient for him to be unable to recall anything about it? If we can trust the narrative of EP8, Yasu showed him to the underground passage and helped him escape, he must have had questions about it, so how did she respond?

I refuse to believe Battler just stood around while people died and then coincidentally found himself being the only survivor (much like Kinzo in the war...)
There's the serious possibility that Tohya actually knows something but like MetaBattler he doesn't want to tell Ange. The scene of Battler and Eva closing the door in Ep 8 was supposed to mean they basically closed the catbox which means Battler must have done something actively. If he just forgot due to a car incident it's not really like he did something but that something was done to him.
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Old 2014-04-24, 21:00   Link #34405
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This article was updated with info about the new chap but from what can I read from google translate it doesn't seem to add anything we didn't know already...
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Old 2014-04-24, 23:19   Link #34406
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There's the serious possibility that Tohya actually knows something but like MetaBattler he doesn't want to tell Ange. The scene of Battler and Eva closing the door in Ep 8 was supposed to mean they basically closed the catbox which means Battler must have done something actively. If he just forgot due to a car incident it's not really like he did something but that something was done to him.
The question of the symbolism is twofold. First: Did Battler and Eva both do something to cover up what happened, or did they both just remain silent so their knowledge would be lost to the world? Second: Did they do whatever they did independent of one another, or in collusion?

These are really important questions and we just don't know! The way it's set up, it could kinda go either way. Eva might or might not have known Battler was alive. Battler might or might not have made a conscious decision regarding his role in things. After all, Tohya doesn't necessarily know what Battler intended to do with whatever knowledge he had late on the 5th or early on the 6th of October, and in the time thereafter leading up to the state he was in when he became Tohya.

Although it seems probable that Eva must have consciously avoided some detail if she knew about Battler's survival. In fact, if the two had contact with one another on the 6th I'd almost have to think they had to be in collusion, but I don't know quite why Battler wouldn't want to be found. If they split up or if Battler was worried Eva would accuse him of something it'd make sense that way, but then it'd mean they each independently decided not to say anything at the least.
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Old 2014-04-25, 03:23   Link #34407
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The worst thing is, he doesn't seem to be saying 'who am I to speak up to my master? Wardrobes don't talk'. What he seems to suggest is that it is Yasu's right to do all of this, and he's perfectly cool with it.
Well, from the perspective of a perfect servant (which Genji is told to be aspiring to) it IS her right to do it, if not even her duty. That's why I added my comment on the usage of the word shinjuu in the original text. I think many people would be surprised at how prevelant a positivism on shinjuu still is in certain circles and especially during the 80s it sometimes happened for failing patriarchs to decide that it is better to kill their whole family then for them to live in shame and debts.

In medieval Japan it was actually so prominent and positively regarded (some forms of Buddhism told that you would be able to enter a Pure Land by committing suicide) and religion taught that people who loved each other and died together would be together in the next world as well.
This thinking was strong enough that it had to be outlawed in the 18th century.

I'm not saying anything like, "Japan regards suicide as great," but in an environment like Rokkenjima, between a person like Sayo and Genji, Genji would probably regard her decision as something noble.

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There's to wonder if actually there's more to Gohda's job than we know. Or was Gohda maybe blackmailing Natsuhi or something
Well, at least the article you linked says a little more about it, so I assume it's in the missing pages:
Gohda quit his previous jobs because of sexual relations with women. So Sayo is assuming that his reason for flirting with Natsuhi constantly is in order to get personal gain out of this situation. And for her it seemed clear that if you found one sin, then others would just continue to appear over time...
Well, her personal experience kinda taught her that
- "Btw honey, you might have been a boy. Oh...and you're an incest baby...and you're the aunt of your boyfriend...and your father might have raped your mother...and planned to kill all people here...and we might have set you up...was that all Kumasawa?! I think I'm forgetting something..."

Quote:
My solution for Ep 3 is that Eva (and Rosa) didn't solve the epitaph, Eva was bribed by handing them the solution to the epitaph. Rosa was alternatively bribed or followed Eva secretly, ergo she too didn't solve anything.
BUT, if that is the case, why did she hand Eva the ring of headship? It is clearly a part of the narrative that Eva succeeded the headship of the house and became the next Golden Witch from 1986 to 1998...for that she must have solved the epitaph or it wouldn't go according to Sayo's rules.
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Old 2014-04-25, 08:11   Link #34408
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'm not saying anything like, "Japan regards suicide as great," but in an environment like Rokkenjima, between a person like Sayo and Genji, Genji would probably regard her decision as something noble.
He's still a monster by the morals of the story, though, so it really doesn't matter. There's absolutely no equivocation over whether what she's doing is actually wrong, it totally is and she knows it and she wants it to not happen. Genji's acceptance of it for any reason is just downright evil. I'm not even passing this judgment, the story is... more or less. It seems to be soft-gloving his responsibility, although part of me thinks it's because Genji became the plot hole scapegoat and has to basically be an evil robot for some of the story fixes to make sense.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2014-04-25, 09:34   Link #34409
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The question of the symbolism is twofold. First: Did Battler and Eva both do something to cover up what happened, or did they both just remain silent so their knowledge would be lost to the world? Second: Did they do whatever they did independent of one another, or in collusion?

These are really important questions and we just don't know! The way it's set up, it could kinda go either way. Eva might or might not have known Battler was alive. Battler might or might not have made a conscious decision regarding his role in things. After all, Tohya doesn't necessarily know what Battler intended to do with whatever knowledge he had late on the 5th or early on the 6th of October, and in the time thereafter leading up to the state he was in when he became Tohya.

Although it seems probable that Eva must have consciously avoided some detail if she knew about Battler's survival. In fact, if the two had contact with one another on the 6th I'd almost have to think they had to be in collusion, but I don't know quite why Battler wouldn't want to be found. If they split up or if Battler was worried Eva would accuse him of something it'd make sense that way, but then it'd mean they each independently decided not to say anything at the least.
Well, one of the two didn't just remained silent, he or she also covered up everything by turning on the bomb... or by letting it on the on position.
If Ep 7 Teaparty is based on the info given by the diary it was Eva. Battler might have agreed/might be forced to agree to it as he too tried to escape.

I rechecked the truth in Eva's diary and in it we can see that not just Battler's but also Beato and Maria's fate isn't depicted (and okay, the servants' but I think the scene with the bleeding dining room is supposed to stand for them being dead).

Another interesting thing is that facts are either not depicted in the order Eva saw them for the shock value of seeing Rudolf and Kyrie as the culprits smirking cruelly (which can be) or Eva didn't witness them in the order suggested by the Teaparty. After the massacre in the golden room we've George's death body, the dining room smeared with blood, Jessica's dead body then Rudolf sitting out of the chapel and then Kyrie apparently leaving the main house.

As they grin we see both of them are dirtied in blood which can work for Kyrie but not so much for Rudolf as he stood under the rain who should have washed it away and also likely didn't went so close to George that blood should have sprayed on him.

So I wonder how much is exactly in the diary and how much is Ange's interpretation of it.

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I'm not saying anything like, "Japan regards suicide as great," but in an environment like Rokkenjima, between a person like Sayo and Genji, Genji would probably regard her decision as something noble.
While I sort of think to get what you mean somehow the setting for me doesn't work up so well that I can wave it off as just that.

If I turn the chessboard over I see contraddictions all the way in Genji's behaviour. He claims he wants to protect Lion and make him grow happy and yet he basically not only forced Sayo in an environment even more miserable than the one of the other Fukuin children and exposed her at the risk of Kinzo recognizing her as Beatrice's reincarnation but not as Lion in disguise but didn't help her to grow as an happy, stable person at all. He didn't protect her, nor he support her. He mostly washed his hands clean of her and set up things so as to protect Kinzo from sinning... or if he had to sin again with Sayo from knowing he sinned with his own child all over again.

When she starts to show problem in regard to her gender identity which are pretty obvious no one helps her to cope, they just cover up for her.

When Kinzo is about to die Genji sets up a farce in order to please KINZO, to absolve KINZO, to let KINZO die in peace.

He doesn't explain things to Sayo, he doesn't tell the truth to her and then asks her if she wants to meet Kinzo regardless and forgive him and all the stuffs. No, he forces her on a dress, in front of Kinzo, while she's utterly confuse and feeling scared and guilty as she evidently wasn't sure she was allowed to discover the gold and have her deal with all that situation that make her feel as if she has to call Kinzo "father" when she can't see him as such just to please him because she feels some pity for him as he seems miserable is totally disregarding her feelings and her wishes.

She wanted a family. She gets money in form of gold. She's basically paid to act that role.

It doesn't end here. After the farce is finished Genji acts all understanding with Kinzo, claiming he had atoned when actually... who's Genji to judge? And what Kinzo did to atone to Sayo apart from giving her some money?... and Genji does so in front of Sayo.

Then he proceed to tell her the full truth over which was Kinzo's sin whom she had unknowingly helped to feel free of. Kinzo died more or less happy. She's left to live in a miserable state and they knew she was miserable and didn't help her at all.

Genji was way more emotionally supportive of Kinzo, way more caring, way more ACTIVE than he is with Sayo, whose life he had basically screwed up more than Kinzo could have done. While Jessica and George might have missed the signs Sayo was desperate those signs had been spelled out loud for Genji (and Kumasawa and Nanjo) to hear and they... pretended not to.

They didn't support her as servants, they washed their hands clean of her problems.

My only hope of redemption for Genji is that actually he pretended to agree with Sayo's plan but then tattled out the solution of the epitaph to either the adults or the cousins in hope this would stop her and they would help her.

If it's the adults his plan didn't work but maybe he couldn't predict it, if it was the cousins, he did it too late but again he couldn't predict it but, at least, he did something.

Otherwise for me he washed his hands clean of her and no matter how he dresses this up, he didn't give a damn about that poor girl and it was all about Kinzo and himself.

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Well, at least the article you linked says a little more about it, so I assume it's in the missing pages:
Gohda quit his previous jobs because of sexual relations with women. So Sayo is assuming that his reason for flirting with Natsuhi constantly is in order to get personal gain out of this situation. And for her it seemed clear that if you found one sin, then others would just continue to appear over time...
Well, her personal experience kinda taught her that
- "Btw honey, you might have been a boy. Oh...and you're an incest baby...and you're the aunt of your boyfriend...and your father might have raped your mother...and planned to kill all people here...and we might have set you up...was that all Kumasawa?! I think I'm forgetting something..."
Well, that's interesting even if unexpected. I thought Gohda left his previous work for disagrements with the head chef as the tip said, not because he slept around.

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BUT, if that is the case, why did she hand Eva the ring of headship? It is clearly a part of the narrative that Eva succeeded the headship of the house and became the next Golden Witch from 1986 to 1998...for that she must have solved the epitaph or it wouldn't go according to Sayo's rules.
The ring of headship was handed to Battler as well in Ep 5 and in Ep 5 also we see that Battler succeeded the headship of the house. So it can be that the ring was handed along with the solution of the epitaph. We know that in Ep 2 Rosa too tried to escape from the island but was late. Eva wasn't but it's possible that Banquet's first version, if it was written by Sayo, ended with Eva leaving Battler supposedly dead and the extra about Eva escaping to Kuwadorian was an addition by Tohya (or Ikuko or both) as the narrative allowed it and it would fit with reality.

Banquet was released as Itokuko's work so even if we assume Banquet was originally written by Sayo, Tohya (or Ikuko or both) might have changed stuffs so as to make it fit with Prime.

In this setting Sayo is still the killer but Eva took "advantage" of it to become the new Ushiromiya head. By doing this however she inherited the blame for Sayo's crime and the title of golden witch.

Though of course, to understand better how Banquet and Alliance came to be I guess we'll need more manga info.
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Old 2014-04-27, 09:20   Link #34410
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Originally Posted by jjblue1
I've the feeling that even in their past Kinzo and Genji weren't that nice. Probably they weren't as bad as they'll be as adults but as youths they were probably closer to Rudolf (who did money in illegal ways even prior to getting married but wasn't as bad as he'll become later) than to... let's say Battler or George.

Growing up in the wrong environments probably pushed everything downhill so that Kinzo wouldn't stop in front of nothing and Genji basically would let him do whatever he wanted.
Kinzo and Genji being unremarkable petty crooks during their youth's an interesting idea. That goes along with my mental image of the two of them being nowhere near as tainted as young men as they grow to become as old ones, while being more consistent with their overall characterization than my original interpretation of "Kinzo used to be an angel as pure as the driven snow, before suddenly developing a criminal streak during middle age."

And for everything you posted about Genji being infinitely supportive of Kinzo while severely neglecting Yasu, that's something I find fascinating about the older characters (Kinzo, Genji, Nanjo) and something that contributes a decent amount to Umineko's charm, incidentally - the group gives off a rather strong feeling of being insular, though some members of the group are worse than others (I won't count Kumasawa here since she's a social butterfly that's taken plenty of interest in the younger generation and is in no way stuck in the past). Kinzo's by far the worst offender, given the way he's notoriously bad for playing favorites. Kinzo has his very small group of people that he cares about and to whom his loyalty and affection knows no bounds, but anyone outside those chosen few who received the Kinzo Seal of Approval can go kill themselves for all he cares. With the exception of Lion, the only people Kinzo cares about much are those he met when he was young or fairly young - Genji, Beatrice, Nanjo. Unless Kinzo met you in the 1940s or before, he don't give a fuck about you. I know I'm rambling here because I'm not very well-rested, but I did always find it an intriguing character trait somehow how Kinzo's so incredibly stuck in the past. The 'rebirth' he went through in World War II could be considered short-lived in a way, since he spent the rest of his existence mired in nostalgia for the years of 1944 through 1948.

On that note, does Kinzo ever comment on Kumasawa in any way, or does the narrative ever give any insight into their relationship or what Kinzo thinks of her? To my memory the subject is never broached at all, but Umineko isn't exactly a short story so I might be forgetting something.
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Old 2014-04-27, 14:05   Link #34411
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Kinzo and Genji being unremarkable petty crooks during their youth's an interesting idea.
Was it brought up so far that the manga actually ascertains that picture? I don't remember. Kinzo said that in their youth they were both sons of rich families and used to get themselves and other people into a lot of trouble. He describes Genji as pretty good at scamming people and even Kinzo himself constantly fell for his schemes (yet couldn't stay angry at him)...kinda sounds like that power-dynamic didn't change a lick either

I think that from their early days on they've lived in an environment that made them care too few about the people around them. Both rich, both good at being on the right people's side...Genji's family was just too stupid to notice that in an uprising it might not be the best idea to hold on to your fortune that you amassed by working with the government

Quote:
On that note, does Kinzo ever comment on Kumasawa in any way, or does the narrative ever give any insight into their relationship or what Kinzo thinks of her? To my memory the subject is never broached at all, but Umineko isn't exactly a short story so I might be forgetting something.
The narrative actually gives us close to nothing but it kinda makes me wonder whether she wasn't "the wandering priest" who built the shrine on Rokkenjima to ward off the evil spirits...or better if she was the one responsible for being kind of the "ghost story press department" in order to keep people from digging too far.
We can assume, by her love of fish and what indirect info we get from and about her son, that she might be from a fishing family and we know it was the fishers who started the legends about Akujikijima.
I do really wonder if Ryukishi ever planned to do much with her, except make her one of the co-conspirators.
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Old 2014-04-27, 15:17   Link #34412
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Was it brought up so far that the manga actually ascertains that picture? I don't remember. Kinzo said that in their youth they were both sons of rich families and used to get themselves and other people into a lot of trouble. He describes Genji as pretty good at scamming people and even Kinzo himself constantly fell for his schemes (yet couldn't stay angry at him)...kinda sounds like that power-dynamic didn't change a lick either

I think that from their early days on they've lived in an environment that made them care too few about the people around them. Both rich, both good at being on the right people's side...Genji's family was just too stupid to notice that in an uprising it might not be the best idea to hold on to your fortune that you amassed by working with the government
Well, I'll say that's a vague description what we have but somehow I've the feelings the two of them definitely didn't start as little angels.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The narrative actually gives us close to nothing but it kinda makes me wonder whether she wasn't "the wandering priest" who built the shrine on Rokkenjima to ward off the evil spirits...or better if she was the one responsible for being kind of the "ghost story press department" in order to keep people from digging too far.
We can assume, by her love of fish and what indirect info we get from and about her son, that she might be from a fishing family and we know it was the fishers who started the legends about Akujikijima.
I do really wonder if Ryukishi ever planned to do much with her, except make her one of the co-conspirators.
Well, we know Kumasawa is good at lying and acting, that she was Kuwadorian Beato wet nurse, that despite often pretending to be ill the Ushiromiya never fired her and that she claimed she learnt about Kinzo's love story with Beatrice by Kinzo himself when he was drunk. It might be she didn't know exactly where was the gold as her son implied she was searching for it... which in a way is bad because she knows who Sayo is and how the gold should belong to her so... unless she planned to do it only for the fun of it, it meant she would have no qualms taking it from her.
She kept silent when Kuwadoran Beatrice was raised in ignorance and when Kinzo took advantage of her and we know that she would be willing to take part to a mystery murder game that would likely scare who doesn't know is a game a lot as well as cause considerable emotional pain just for money.

I think... there's the possibility Kinzo hired her knowing she would do what he asked of her without questions regardless of how bad it was and kept her as compensation for her services.

She's probably not this terrible person, more like a servant old style who just exist to obey but I think she's more loyal to money than to the master.

*sighs* The more things come up about Sayo's past the less I like Genji and Kumasawa so maybe my judgement is biased because lack of love.
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Old 2014-04-27, 19:03   Link #34413
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*sighs* The more things come up about Sayo's past the less I like Genji and Kumasawa so maybe my judgement is biased because lack of love.
Maybe it's my inner Bern or something but I honestly think it's rather us being biased because we have too much love. The stories made us doubt the adults but kinda made us like the servants, didn't they?

With Genji it was almost always depicted to be his strong side how loyal he was, how he was an admirable person for how he stuck with the family despite all the odds.
The same with Kumasawa being a sweet, old lady, always with a wonderful story on her lips to make people forget the stress, hiding behind corners because she is weak but always feeling all the sadness of people suffering...even her creepy stories were mostly written off as her having fun.

We keep ourselves from even considering that these two might be bad people...and I think the authors within the story are often doing the same. Sayo was raised by those two and they might even be nice at times, but deep down they have serious dark sides.
Just look at Kumasawa in EP2 and how she is getting a major fix out of having that ghost story conversation with Jessica, about the legends and the unexpected visitor appearing (and her so obviously not talking about Battler).
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Old 2014-04-29, 20:54   Link #34414
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I always figured the reason Kumasawa couldn't get fired is because she essentially had blackmail dirt on Kinzo. Even if she never made any sort of direct threat on that, she kinda knows about his hidden lovechild and all. Kinzo and Genji would have to be pretty dumb (well, dumber than they apparently already are) to tick her off.
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Old 2014-04-30, 17:10   Link #34415
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Maybe it's my inner Bern or something but I honestly think it's rather us being biased because we have too much love. The stories made us doubt the adults but kinda made us like the servants, didn't they?

With Genji it was almost always depicted to be his strong side how loyal he was, how he was an admirable person for how he stuck with the family despite all the odds.
The same with Kumasawa being a sweet, old lady, always with a wonderful story on her lips to make people forget the stress, hiding behind corners because she is weak but always feeling all the sadness of people suffering...even her creepy stories were mostly written off as her having fun.

We keep ourselves from even considering that these two might be bad people...and I think the authors within the story are often doing the same. Sayo was raised by those two and they might even be nice at times, but deep down they have serious dark sides.
Just look at Kumasawa in EP2 and how she is getting a major fix out of having that ghost story conversation with Jessica, about the legends and the unexpected visitor appearing (and her so obviously not talking about Battler).
Well, I can't really say I liked the servants but at first I didn't thought they were that bad. But then the more I learn about them and the more I think about them the more I'm disgusted. And ironically this applies more to Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo than to Gohda who yes, in the beginning is not depicted in a favourable light but all considered he's not there claiming he cares about Shannon or Kanon or the Ushiromiya.

Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo, who claims they care for Sayo, who's basically considered blindly trusted and that saw most of the family grow up... and that instead don't really care about the family not even in the limits of normal decency... well, that's pretty bad in my books.

Kumasawa will accept to be paid to play a 'prank' in which not only she madly scared people by letting them think there's a murderer around but also causes them quite a lot of grief by making them think their family is dead. That's not a prank, that's cruel. And I won't go how she cared about Sayo and Beatrice only the bare minimum necessary. Sayo saw it as a lot but that's only because she had nothing else.

Nanjo is even worse as he was bribed for much more serious things. Hiding Beatrice (which could be seen as betrayal for his country), hiding Kinzo's incest and possible rape of his daughter (I'm not sure if rape is technically the right word because I fear in the end she was manipulated into saying 'yes'... even if she wanted to say 'no' as Kinzo likely took advantage of her ignorance and obedience), hiding a child (which basically is kidnapping) and taking part to covering up a crime as he must know people are dead for real.
And I don't know if the plot for Forgery of Purple truth was planned by Ryukishi but if that's the case this mean for money he would have no problems killing everyone.

Genji is the top of the list. Basically he claimed to care for Kinzo and Sayo but used Sayo to protect Kinzo from himself and to please him in his final moments, condemned her to a rather unpleasant life and when she claimed she was suicidal he washed his hands clean of her problems as he didn't care about living any longer and, oh, too bad for everyone else but he's totally cool with her killing everyone.

*sigh* Gohda can be unpleasant with Shannon and Kanon because he feels superior to them but at least he doesn't claim affection for anyone in the family. He's there for a job, if he'll get better paid he'll accept to make another and I don't even think he thought of doing something illegal (though if that was a prank I would sue him for giving me psychological damage... two days believeing I've a serial killer going around and people dropping dead around me won't help me sleep well the night)

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I always figured the reason Kumasawa couldn't get fired is because she essentially had blackmail dirt on Kinzo. Even if she never made any sort of direct threat on that, she kinda knows about his hidden lovechild and all. Kinzo and Genji would have to be pretty dumb (well, dumber than they apparently already are) to tick her off.
Yes, I fear so. And the same probably apply to Natsuhi and Krauss because she knows Kinzo is dead. So even if I think Natsuhi doesn't love her much she kept her. Interesting enough in Ep 1 Eva seemed to dislike her but it was never explained why.
However we see that Kumasawa seems to have the habit to spy or eavesdrop conversations. Maybe she was prone to blackmail the family members and Eva hated this? Though Rosa seems to have a nice relationship with her... or else is she trying to bribe her with tea? LOL actually in the tea box she gave Kumasawa there was lot of blackmailing money to shut Kumasawa's mouth on some secret about Rosa that the woman knew...
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Old 2014-05-03, 04:36   Link #34416
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Sadly I haven't yet gotten my hands on part 1 of CotGW since 2000Yen is a little expensive for my taste (especially since it's only about 40 pages), but at least I have part 2 and 3 complete and will leave you with the translation of both chapters for now. We'll see what more I can do later

Spoiler for Confession of the Golden Witch (2):


For now only this chaper, because I have to go eat something and putting it in a proper format takes time. So see you later and have fun so far. Only 19 days left till the first chapter after Confession...let's hope it involves the Hachijos
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Old 2014-05-03, 06:36   Link #34417
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That's really excellent! Thanks so much for the translation, Haguruma.

I have to say that I'm pleased that there did turn out to be a freezer involved in Kinzo's corpse storage. Though it seems he was stored in his study and they also used preservatives. Good lord, how ghoulish it must have felt for all of those characters. Were they really having to go in and regularly clean a study with a dead preserved freezer body, and bring in Kinzo's meals to that room daily? They must all have been driven loopy. Maybe it was just Yasu who was left with the job.

And I can only wonder what the hell Yasu thought about all those skeletons being in the underground before she asked Genji how they got there. Not that she was pleased with the actual answer either.
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Old 2014-05-03, 06:49   Link #34418
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That's really amazing. The catbox lid is slipping back more and the guts are starting to emerge.

The really interesting angle is Sayo's self-loathing over the scope of the incestuous desires and repeating, in both her mind, and in a very real sense what Kinzo did by having a relationship with people who are her own...what? Cousins? Second cousins? Nephews/nieces?

This on top of the timing of finding the bodies of the soldiers (never expected that myself, but it better explains the relevance of the red scene in episode 7), and as we knew, dealing the new knowledge of her gender "flaw" and the conflicts of finding validation as her (his) birth gender from an unexpected source while trying "Kanon" out...on top of everything else.

And in comes Maria to help things move along to the Golden Land...
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Old 2014-05-03, 07:53   Link #34419
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Maybe it was just Yasu who was left with the job.

And I can only wonder what the hell Yasu thought about all those skeletons being in the underground before she asked Genji how they got there. Not that she was pleased with the actual answer either.
Genji and his tactfulness again
In the first scene he's just like, "Oh yeah, I should tell Natsuhi we need a better freezer for her dead father-in-law, hope she has the money " and in the second it's like, "I just hoped you wouldn't bring it up...."
I mean, it's not like he was there for the death of the soldiers and I give him the benefit of the doubt that he would probably be willing to trust Kinzo when he says that he didn't kill them...but still, Genji is either the most loyal bag of stupid or the most scheming bastard in the whole story.

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That's really amazing. The catbox lid is slipping back more and the guts are starting to emerge.
I generally like it how these chapters use many sequences and sentences from the games and reframe them in this new light, most of them becoming much darker. Like Beatrice's verbal attacks on Shannon from EP2, or how George kept on harping on about him knowing that Shannon and he were "connected by their souls even beyond death"....so many characters didn't even notice the hurtful things they said.

Saddest I found was how Sayo even admits that it is her fault for never standing up and becoming tangled in her own web of lies and stories, but that she is just too weak and scared to even attempt to untangle it now.

Now on to the current chapter:
Spoiler for Confession of the Golden Witch (3):


And yes, one of the panels when she explains how her magic makes everything possible also shows Shannon killing Nanjo in EP3
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Old 2014-05-03, 08:35   Link #34420
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The manga is obviously a deception made by Ryukishi in order to allow the truly great detectives (such as myself) to obtain the even truer answer. I'll quote the red text:

Rosa [...] killed [...] other people.

See? It was obviously Rosa in the garden with the fountain pen! Just check the alternative theories online.
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