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Old 2014-05-10, 07:20   Link #34461
GuestSpeaker
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I think I would have made this forum proud yesterday.

My friend fell asleep while I was over at his, so I left to go home. His door only has a deadbolt, so if you don't shut it the door swings open. Being in an apartment I didn't want to leave it open, but I didn't know where he kept the key.

So I devised a trick to shut it from the outside (I know, Beatrice would be ashamed). BUT when he asked how I did it, I told him it was magic and I turned into golden mist and passed through the keyhole. He was very confused.
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Old 2014-05-10, 09:03   Link #34462
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*applause* You are now officially a witch, GuestSpeaker.

Of course, we only have your word for it that the trick was played from outside. Actually, you could have swapped places with another person who came to rescue you and set the bolt from inside! They could then have hidden in the apartment, perhaps in the wardrobe!
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Old 2014-05-10, 09:57   Link #34463
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Oh I hope not, he actually keeps kitchen knives in there for some reason (he even cut himself on one last week). If they weren't careful they could die in there, and then cease to exist!
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Old 2014-05-10, 19:42   Link #34464
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Umineko Ep 7 spoilers part 1 and part 2.
I can't read the text but it seems in Ep 2 and 3 we had multiple culprits and not just Sayo...
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Old 2014-05-10, 21:27   Link #34465
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Umineko Ep 7 spoilers part 1 and part 2.
I can't read the text but it seems in Ep 2 and 3 we had multiple culprits and not just Sayo...
It's not just EP2 and 3. If you look really well you can also see that Genji is also shooting people in the first twilight of EP4. Also I think that he is also the one shooting George in that episode because of the hand you see shooting that gun.....that's not Sayo's I think.



Speaking of that, EP4 is the one I'm really interested now......from what I can see from the pages it looks like we have a EP5 situation where everyone was in a plan to trick one person but then real murders happen. In this case the target was Battler. Also I might be wrong but there's a page that shows all the murders......I wonder if the way the panels are layed out is giving the order of the murder? Does that mean Kyrie died first and Genji was last(before Sayo's suicide of course)? I don't remember EP4 that well so I don't know if that conflicts against somthing....
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Old 2014-05-11, 08:08   Link #34466
theacefrehley
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These pages make me think that EP3 was a bit like EP Tea Party, but with Eva+Hideyoshi instead of Rudolf+Kyrie

In those pages it says
EP2: Rosa, Nanjo and Servants were bribed
Shannon Kills George and Gohda
Genji Kill the two of them (kumasawa and nanjo)

EP3
Eva killed the two of them (krauss and natsuhi)
Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed
Hideyoshi is suspected
At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed
But Kyrie doesn't die right away
And kills Hideyoshi
Eva kills Rosa
and strangles Maria

Obviously it's just a in-universe written story, so (almost) anything goes
I don't think Eva is a serial killer
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Old 2014-05-11, 08:29   Link #34467
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How the hell did she get her frickin' hands on that chapter so fast? Did she travel through time?! The magazine only goes on sale tomorrow
Ah well, I will give a proper translation tomorrow...at least I hope so...but let's so what we've got so far.

So we have confirmation that Nanjo and all the servants were accomplices in EP2 and that Rosa was bribed. Also, my ideas about the difference in weapon with Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses were right and the thing about Genji handling knifes in that Episode really was to hint that he killed them.
Also it looks like Shannon was trying to tell George what she was doing, maybe telling him everything and he seemed to be not taking it well, leading to her killing Gohda and him.

EP3 is actually really straightforward...more than I thought. Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed, Eva killed Rosa and Maria in the garden as suspected. Hideyoshi killed Rudolph and Kyrie and was in turn shot by a dying Kyrie. And then Eva in turn killed Krauss and Natsuhi.
It's interesting how this part doesn't really touch on the two murders committed by Sayo (George and Nanjo).

EP4 has everybody except Battler being bribed. The murder in the dining hall is done by Shannon and Genji. The pictures aren't complete, but apparently George and Jessica only moved according to a script they already knew about. I'm also suspecting the order of the panels to show the order in which people died, which would imply: 5 in the dining hall (Natsuhi, Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rosa), next Kyrie, then Krauss and Nanjo, then George, then Kumasawa and Gohda, next is Jessica, then Maria (with poison) and finally Genji and then herself.

Well, at least we have more or less proof that EP3 is not actually written by Sayo.
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Old 2014-05-11, 14:10   Link #34468
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No idea. Maybe she has some special subscription so they're sent to her earlier?

Anyway I stay my case, blame me all you want but I would have preferred Sayo do the killing on her own than have robot Genji and Killer Eva work for her.
I guess in this case I would have liked more if Van Dine 12 was put at work... or maybe it's just I don't really find believable how the whole thing is handled... Ep 3 paints a rather horrible picture of Eva (and well, I won't go into Genji but I don't like how Genji is handled in Prime either).
As for George and Najo maybe the solution was given but she didn't share the scans?
There are missing pages and some scans were cropped, I don't know why.

Of course if as you say Ep 3 & 4 aren't written by Sayo but by a Tohya/Battler who started to remember things (and knew what had happened in Prime) it might make sense that the killings weren't done solely by her (though in Ep 2 too we've Genji as the murder) but at this point I wonder which was Genji's role in Prime as he too becomes one of the murders... and a quite proficent one at that.

He starts with Nanjo and Kumasawa in Ep 2. It's unclear who killed Kyrie and Rudolf, as Hideyoshi has no guns so it could have been Genji or Sayo or even Eva. In Ep 4 Genji is back in action killing Eva & Rosa (and maybe Hideyoshi, Nanjo and Krauss?) . Then he goes and kills George and I think it's likely he killed Gohda and Kumasawa while Sayo was talking with Battler. I guess as Jessica fought Ronove this can be a hint of how Genji killed Jessica as well.
I'll assume Maria was killed by Sayo though... but definitely in Ep 4 Genji's death count is quite high.

If Ep 4 was written by Tohya... has Genji already started murdering people when Kyrie and Rudolf went back after what had happened in the room of the gold? Did they found the corpses but couldn't explain how murders happened so Eva thought they killed everyone?

After all if Ep 7 is trustworthy the siblings remained in the room of the gold till past midnight and the game was supposed to start at midnight.

If Genji was set as a murderer he might have started by killing Kumasawa, Gohda, Nanjo, George, Jessica and Maria as the first 6.

In the room of the gold Eva and Hideyoshi had killed Natsuhi and Krauss and Kyrie or Rudolf might have killed Krauss and Hideyoshi (and tried to off Eva).

We assume all the guns were there due to Ep 7 Teaparty but actually I rewatched the scenes of Eva's diary and we can't see if Krauss and Rosa were holding a gun so it can be the only one having guns were Eva, Kyrie and maybe Rudolf and 1 or 2 guns were missing and whose were used by Genji.

(also I remember trying to count the guns owned by Kinzo in Ep 8 and I wasn't sure if it showed he owned 4 or 5 guns... as one picture seemed to imply they were 5... and in Ep 3 we see 4 but it can be Sayo kept one for herself)
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Old 2014-05-11, 22:45   Link #34469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I guess in this case I would have liked more if Van Dine 12 was put at work... or maybe it's just I don't really find believable how the whole thing is handled... Ep 3 paints a rather horrible picture of Eva (and well, I won't go into Genji but I don't like how Genji is handled in Prime either).
Well, it does paint a stronger impression of the whole "it depends from which perspective you see the story being perceived" part that Ryukishi mentioned in the AotGW interview with KEIYA.
It basically makes EP3 into the most popular and likely idea in post-1986 after the actual events of Rokkenjima, but it also still retains the "how could George die" and "there's still things that don't add up (cfr. Nanjo)" elements that would keep people going. It does make Eva horrible person, but due to Eva-Beato there's a strong point made that this is not the actual Eva...and I can kind of go with that. I just find it almost too simple as a solution...but maybe that's just me slapping my forehead for thinking too complicated.

And Genji, again, is only story-Genji.
Quote:
but at this point I wonder which was Genji's role in Prime as he too becomes one of the murders... and a quite proficent one at that.
In Sayo's stories (and by extension all post-Sayo forgeries) he can be a murderer, but the question remains if he could be one in real life. He assured her that he would stand by her and going by his past (and what we could assume about his past by where he came from and who his family was) it's likely that he might have killed before.

Btw. I reread the manga of the first 4 Episodes and finally also bothered reading the small end-commentaries by Ryukishi in each final volume. Most of the time they aren't that important, but I found it interesting what he said about EP4:
"Please, everyone, embark on this journey with 'one loving eye' and 'one eye without love'. If you ever become confused about the truth of the real world, this should yield you a modest hint...I firmly believe so."
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Old 2014-05-14, 18:42   Link #34470
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Well, it does paint a stronger impression of the whole "it depends from which perspective you see the story being perceived" part that Ryukishi mentioned in the AotGW interview with KEIYA.
It basically makes EP3 into the most popular and likely idea in post-1986 after the actual events of Rokkenjima, but it also still retains the "how could George die" and "there's still things that don't add up (cfr. Nanjo)" elements that would keep people going. It does make Eva horrible person, but due to Eva-Beato there's a strong point made that this is not the actual Eva...and I can kind of go with that. I just find it almost too simple as a solution...but maybe that's just me slapping my forehead for thinking too complicated.

And Genji, again, is only story-Genji.
Well, somehow I don't really like the idea of Sayo hiring Eva or Genji as killers in her place.
In some cases I don't even think they're needed as Sayo could have done the killing just the same.
... and I want to go through Ep 3 again because somehow some scenes don't add up now... but maybe it's just me remembering them poorly.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
In Sayo's stories (and by extension all post-Sayo forgeries) he can be a murderer, but the question remains if he could be one in real life. He assured her that he would stand by her and going by his past (and what we could assume about his past by where he came from and who his family was) it's likely that he might have killed before.
Well, that's the usual problem. A person can say he'll kill someone else or help someone to kill someone else but until he had done it we can never be sure if he would actually do it.

PrimeGenji might have tattled out Sayo's plan to Battler in hope he'll stop her (or given hints to the adults knowing she would stop if the epitaph was solved) and PrimeSayo, despite all her talking about killing, might have panicked when faced with the situation in which she would have to do it and be unable to press the trigger. Unless it'll come up they murdered someone on Prime we'll never know, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Btw. I reread the manga of the first 4 Episodes and finally also bothered reading the small end-commentaries by Ryukishi in each final volume. Most of the time they aren't that important, but I found it interesting what he said about EP4:
"Please, everyone, embark on this journey with 'one loving eye' and 'one eye without love'. If you ever become confused about the truth of the real world, this should yield you a modest hint...I firmly believe so."
Well, it sounds like a good way to go through Umineko. In a way it's inted also by the whole 'what you see with love' theme.
It's said that without love we can't see certain things but also that love can cause people to see what isn't there in the first place.
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Old 2014-05-22, 10:19   Link #34471
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And again she manages to have the issue earlier than me...somehow I'm starting to think this has a system behind it
I searched all bookstores in the area today and the issue simply wasn't delivered yet. But at least it seems to be exactly the content I hoped for, with Ange actually reacting to the revelations that were given to her just before and not simply shrugging it off and having a 180 turn of character.

I'm not going to translate it yet, but going out again to see if I can get the issue maybe now. If not I'll have it tomorrow from the Animate in town and will give a full translation tomorrow.
Only so far, the sentence, "The land of the dead that I arrived at when I turned and ran from reality has neither happiness nor future," kind of breaks my heart.
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Old 2014-05-22, 17:29   Link #34472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And again she manages to have the issue earlier than me...somehow I'm starting to think this has a system behind it
I've heard in some places manga are delivered earlier... maybe that's her trick?


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I searched all bookstores in the area today and the issue simply wasn't delivered yet. But at least it seems to be exactly the content I hoped for, with Ange actually reacting to the revelations that were given to her just before and not simply shrugging it off and having a 180 turn of character.
Well, I can't really read the dialogues but the manga reaction seems more natural for her.


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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'm not going to translate it yet, but going out again to see if I can get the issue maybe now. If not I'll have it tomorrow from the Animate in town and will give a full translation tomorrow.
I wish you good luck!
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Only so far, the sentence, "The land of the dead that I arrived at when I turned and ran from reality has neither happiness nor future," kind of breaks my heart.
*nods* Same here.
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Old 2014-05-23, 14:04   Link #34473
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Here you go with chapter 25 (apparently Confession really counts as a bonus chapter, since One Truth was 24) translation. It's a really great chapter and tackles alot of problems...and basically admits that everybody was horrible as an actual person due to circumstance.Though I still think that Shinju will go largely misunderstood with the western audience...

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 25:
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Old 2014-05-23, 14:55   Link #34474
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Here you go with chapter 25 (apparently Confession really counts as a bonus chapter, since One Truth was 24) translation. It's a really great chapter and tackles alot of problems...and basically admits that everybody was horrible as an actual person due to circumstance.Though I still think that Shinju will go largely misunderstood with the western audience...

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 25:
As usual many, many, MANY thanks for the translation!

Yes, this works much better than the VN as far as I'm involved. It explains Battler's message better as well as it gives Ange a better reason to change her way of thinking than just 'truth is bad so it doesn't matter'. Also Ange's reaction to everything seems more natural.

And I've apprecciated how everyone is shown regretting his faults but at the same time feeling trapped by his own circumstances and fear to the point he refused making a better choice.

(and uhm... I would like to see the scene in which Beato wonders if he would cry for her and then claims he would and then move over and she doesn't want this)

In a way is more fitting to have Beato help Ange to think as their circumstances were similar in a way.

At the same time it's a pity Ange's parents are rather passive and... where's Battler? I guess they wanted to keep the scene with him and Ange talking privately but it feels weird he's not there... not that it could be because if he were I fear he would have stolen Beato's spot light...

Oh well, we'll see in the next chapters...

Also it's interesting.
So this is chap 25.
So we basically had 4 chapters considered extra ("Interlude Hachijo Ikuko" and the 3 chapters of Confession).

And... hum... even though Beato thinks she's pretty unlucky if Ange can understand her confession and forgive her I think it's not a bad thing she had 'read' it... but although it makes sense in the meta I'm not sure the same could have happened to Prime Ange... unless that too was in the diary or the Hachijo sent her that message bottle?

Oh well, we'll see...
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Old 2014-05-24, 04:03   Link #34475
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes, this works much better than the VN as far as I'm involved. It explains Battler's message better as well as it gives Ange a better reason to change her way of thinking than just 'truth is bad so it doesn't matter'. Also Ange's reaction to everything seems more natural.
Well, the message was there from the very beginning, it was just really awkwardly inserted into the VN version of EP8, which proably made alot of people misunderstand what Battler's idea behind the whole shennanigans actually was. It also gives the character a little bit of redemptemtion, since they are actually portrayed as "worrying too much" about Ange's reaction towards the One Truth and end up driving her towards it.

I really found Beato's speech wonderful, since she (and the other family members) are really depicted as caring about Ange, it gives the character the proper background for what we were obviously expected to feel when reading EP8 back then.

Quote:
And I've apprecciated how everyone is shown regretting his faults but at the same time feeling trapped by his own circumstances and fear to the point he refused making a better choice.
Yes, it really makes the characters seem rounder. You could argue how believable it is that nobody did anything, especially Genji with his whole loyalty thing...but since the characters are drawn that way I can accept it.

Quote:
(and uhm... I would like to see the scene in which Beato wonders if he would cry for her and then claims he would and then move over and she doesn't want this)
I'll try to make a copy of it later, but it's just a few panels showing Sayo writing and then it already moves on to the ingots sinking into the ocean.
Btw. I really liked that they made Beato consider this, when she said that as the master of that room she could have destroyed "it" or thrown "it" into the sea. It's clearly the gold that she deems as harmful and a seed for discord, since this will (if it's included) give the scene where she throws herself into the ocean with the ingot a lot more meaning.
And when she is talking about how she was even too scared of living in the real world when that moment to "hold on to it while thinking that living might not be as bad" it shows two hands reaching for each other...so it could very clearly be an allusion to her suicide on the boat.

Quote:
At the same time it's a pity Ange's parents are rather passive and... where's Battler?
It's interesting that Battler isn't there, isn't it? But doesn't it also make a whole lot of sense? When she is witnessing this moment in what Maria and Beato call the Golden Land, all the people in that scene are dead (Eva has just died, so she would naturally be there too). Beato later even says that this is the land of death.
Yes, Battler was there before and joins them later, but thematically in this scene, it makes sense for him to be absent and is also a huge hint for the people who don't know the end yet.

Oh well, we'll see in the next chapters...

Quote:
Also it's interesting.
So this is chap 25.
So we basically had 4 chapters considered extra ("Interlude Hachijo Ikuko" and the 3 chapters of Confession).
Yeah, that also explains why they didn't release a new tankobon in spring, even though they have 8 uncollected chapters together already. I suppose they will put Confession into a seperate bonus-feature maybe?

Quote:
but although it makes sense in the meta I'm not sure the same could have happened to Prime Ange... unless that too was in the diary or the Hachijo sent her that message bottle?
Yeah, I'm still wondering how they are attempting to tie these two plots together. Since there was also Beato's comment that Ange was in "a horrible shape" and "it took time for her to even remember her original form" after she jumped off the railing in the Capital of Books/the building where she met Bern...
I do wonder if she actually did jump and injure herself and that is what rattled Tohya up...or if this is metaphorical and she got all these things sent to her...

There's also still the plot of Ikuko holding the press conference over the content of Eva's diary...which is still ongoing...that makes me wonder how that ties into events. If she has the diary, how could Ange have read it?!

Well, maybe we are just supposed to believe in the existence of witches on this one level...that Ange was actually shown all these things...though it seems weird
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Old 2014-05-24, 08:14   Link #34476
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Here you go with chapter 25 (apparently Confession really counts as a bonus chapter, since One Truth was 24) translation. It's a really great chapter and tackles alot of problems...and basically admits that everybody was horrible as an actual person due to circumstance.Though I still think that Shinju will go largely misunderstood with the western audience...

Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 25:
First of all, let me say I cannot thank you enough for all these translations! I am refreshing all the time whenever I'm waiting for you to translate a new chapter!

I've been following this thread for a long time, but I've finally decided to make an account so that I'm able to post myself. I have to admit that all this new content from the episode 8 manga has left me completely dumbfounded. It painted Sayo's story in a whole new light than the EP7 vn, making it way more harsh and tragic. Simply the fact that we are finally able to see things that were left completely to our imagination before now (the panel with the Shannon and Kanon masks still haunts me) has had an enormous impact on me. It feels good that the reasons for the crime we've all been suspecting inside our heads are now printed on paper for us to read.

It is indeed sad that the lid of the catbox has been taken off and all of its contents are getting revealed. However, I believe this is something that had to happen eventually. Ange's reaction to the one truth is way more natural and realistic this time around and I found her whole conversation with Beato very touching. I am quite certain that if the EP8 vn had gone about the story in the same way as the manga we would have all been wailing like little girls while reading it.

Despite my love for all these new chapters (both EP7 and EP8), there are a few things that bother me regarding the current revelations:

1. This is the least important, but I find it quite difficult to wrap my head around the murdering Genji idea. I always thought that he knew murders where actually occurring and that he was assisting Sayo with them in some way. However, I cannot really picture him as a killer. I believe this has been already mentioned, but I find it kind of pointless to have him kill people as well, when Sayo could most likely go through with it on her own.

2. I think it is still not clear how Eva managed to move Krauss and Natsuhi's corpses all the way under the arbor after strangling them. Am I missing something or has it not been explained yet? Also, are we supposed to deduce that it was her that staked them, based on the mistaken placement of the stakes?

3. Finally, I am way too confused regarding Maria's rose. When we first got the Book of One Truth chapter it showed that the whole rose scenario actually did happen. This automatically made me think that all the bottle stories were written post-incident and therefore included this part. But then the Confession clarified the stories were all written and released before the conference. So what's actually going on here? I can only see two possibilities:

a) "Maria's Rose" is not mentioned in the original bottle stories and was later implemented in a meta layer of each story in the same way the meta world scenes and the fantasy scenes were implemented.

b) "Maria's Rose" was an event orchestrated by Sayo in collaboration with Maria in order for her to find a chance to hand her the invitation letter. Maria could have been told to take care of any sickly looking roses or something like that. Even though this scenario would explain the inclusion of the rose part in the stories it somehow seems a bit forced or maybe too far fetched. I thought the rose scene seemed way too natural and random to be something devised by Sayo. Then again, maybe the fact that it kept happening was a hint that something was repeatedly causing it.

Last edited by renosm; 2014-05-24 at 08:28.
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Old 2014-05-24, 10:51   Link #34477
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Welcome Resosm,

Your question about Eva moving the two corpses is indeed a mystery, while I have not come to a specific conclusion, I will leave you with a cryptic hint:

WOLF AND SHEEP PUZZLE.

Also remember that their deaths may have been faked for whatever reason.

As for your question about the rose, I cannot give a comprehensive answer since I have no precise theoy of my own. There is a scene near the beginning of EP7 (I cannot remember which, since my notes only cover the question arcs at the moment) where Will and Lion see a rose wilt due to being outside of their Kakera. A meta role would imply that the rose wilts when the island (catbox) becomes closed off as a gesture of symbolism.
Other posters will probably mention, and further elaborate, that we have no real clue about the Rose's role in the original bottle stories or Prime, and that the different writers of the stories confuses the basis of the motif even further.

I hope that helps even a little bit.
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Old 2014-05-24, 11:06   Link #34478
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Regarding the rose:
CotGW basically all out confirms that this was a plot devised between Sayo and Maria to create a situation in which they would meet. If there actually was a rose (since EP2 makes no further mention of it, considering that the meeting between Maria and Beato happens differently this time around) is I think of no further concern, it is more that this was an early hint that Maria was in on it (considering her insistency that the rose MUST BE FOUND, even going so far as threatening her mother in EP3.

CotGW shows Maria pointing towards the rose when Sayo talks about how Maria's role is to read the letter that she studied way in advance. This also explains how Maria was able to read that letter, because she had probably studied it for a few months already.
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Old 2014-05-24, 12:19   Link #34479
Witch of Uncertainty
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In ep 3, the Narrative also points out that when Rosa agreed to go check the rose, Maria stopped crying so quickly that it seemed rehearsed.
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Old 2014-05-25, 05:09   Link #34480
renosm
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Regarding the rose:
CotGW basically all out confirms that this was a plot devised between Sayo and Maria to create a situation in which they would meet.
So that was actually the case! Well, I guess it does make sense. I remember someone had once compared Maria looking for the withered rose to Maria looking for her lost keys in EP4. That's probably the reason it was hard for me to think of the whole thing as a fake scenario to arrange a meeting.

Quote:
even going so far as threatening her mother in EP3
I just bought the two volumes of the EP3 manga and I have to say that Kei Natsumi's work is phenomenal! The funny thing is, I happened to stumble upon the scene with Maria being all creepy about seeing her rose, a little while after posting here! It made me rethink the possibility of it being a part of Sayo's plot.

Quote:
Your question about Eva moving the two corpses is indeed a mystery, while I have not come to a specific conclusion, I will leave you with a cryptic hint:

WOLF AND SHEEP PUZZLE.
So basically Sayo and Eva moved them together? (or was it Nanjo too?) That could be the case since we learned that they were actually working together on the murders. I don't think Krauss and Natsuhi's deaths were faked. In Will's solution you can clearly see them getting strangled by Eva (and in the guesthouse lobby for that matter)!

To tell the truth the means of moving the corpses had always puzzled me a bit. Even in the first twilight murders of the first game wouldn't it be a pain for Genji and Sayo to move six adult corpses all the way to the garden shed? I always assumed that the wheelbarrow used to move the fertilizer on Kanon's first appearance was the way the bodies were moved! We are shown that it can be used by Sayo alone to move a lot of weight, so why not use it for the bodies as well?
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