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Old 2014-08-10, 21:26   Link #34541
jjblue1
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Okay, I checked Ep 7 VN. It has the scene with Kanon but it's a little different as, in the VN there's an interruption from Beato who volunteer to get the bud of love.
I can't see the manga but from the dialogue the scene seems to put more the focus on Kanon while in the VN the focus is more on how Beato will do this and that for Shannon.

In regard to Kyrie in the VN she thinks the malice comes from the fact Kinzo believes they won't solve it... so it looks like somehting much softer than Kinzo having a nefarous plan.

Eva's monologue seems the same in the VN although it might be shorter.
We're told Rosa wanted to solve the epitaph (so maybe the one she loves will come back) but gave up immediately and, as soon as she saw Maria, tried to have her solve it with Maria acting the same as the manga.

In the dialogue between Kinzo and Genji in the VN Kinzo seems much calmer but maybe it's just me and there are some differences in it but maybe it's just a matter of translations?
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Old 2014-08-13, 06:18   Link #34542
Drifloon
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Yeah, the VN version of that scene is here, for reference.

It seems to me like any difference in emphasis could easily just be a translation thing - aside from the wording, the flow of the conversation seems pretty much exactly the same - but I could be wrong.
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Old 2014-08-15, 06:05   Link #34543
Higurashi-Z
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Since there are still someone here, I want to talk a little about some of my random thoughts about Umineko. But this a HUGE post written by someone with an english on the same level as Battler's so take in consideration that it's IMPOSSIBURU for this to be PERFECTO.

From the first time that I was reading Umineko I found Dlanor's weapons really strange. The definition of what they do is ridiculous and not even really used on the story. During the fight of Dlanor with some characters they always do something like block or dodge her attack while the weapon's description says that it is impossible to do that. Of course, on Umineko world how powerful a character is will dependent more on how much intelligent he is, but if it's like that what even is the point of writing all that ? And for some reason it appears on the tips, who should serve to have an easy look on some important points of the story.
But thinking on the tohya's forgeries as something he wrote to pass a message to Ange I come of a kind of interpretation.

First, as we know, Dlanor isn't the writer Ronald A. Knox, but the personification of the Decalogue, who is introduced as the "way" to solve the mystery. Of course you can debate about how much the gameboard really follow the decalogue, but is a fact that Battler solved the game using the Decalogue as a base to his reasoning. After that we need to remember the names of her weapons: Red key and Blue key.
That "key" part on the name is kind of strange for a random weapon. But if we think as the decalogue as a way to "open" the cat box, it appears to have some importance.

We then have 2 keys who are able to open the cat box, each of them with a different definition. The red key is also called The red key of "judgment" and it's definition give an image of death, destruction and hopelessness.
The other one is the blue key who is also called The Blue key of "reflection", and that already give the overall image that I have about this weapon. Something that make someone able to "renew" oneself, it's the auto-reflection.

What I think about those weapons is that each of them represent a different disposition of the person solving the case. The why this person is try to understand what happened, what they are trying to attain with that. If we thing about the description as something referring to Ange, the red key "of judgment" would be doing that for "revenge" or even with no specific porosity, just judging who is right and who is wrong, while the blue key "of reflection", gives some true meaning to the objective of solving the case, as an important process to knowing oneself, and reflect about one's life.

What I find interesting when I think about that is that on EP8, on Ange's choice about trick or magic, Battler shows to Ange 2 DOORS and depending of hers conclusion she will pass through one of the doors. On the trick ending, the door that I think that is open with the "red key", Ange kills Amakusa and even Kawabata and what happened to her is unknown. On the magic end, she reflects about herself, about how she lived her life, and how she will live from now on. It's interesting that while the red key is defined as "denying the concept of things", the blue key definition it's said about a reflection achieved through "self-doubting" and denying themselves. On the trick end Ange, more or less, deny everything that Battler was trying to teach her and kill Amakusa and Kawabata, in other words this too could be referred as "denying their existence". On the magic end Ange understand and accept what Battler was trying to convey, and "denied" herself, as we know that she killed her identity as Ushiromiya Ange and "renew" herself as Kotobuki Yukari.



Another point is about Erika as a representation of what Ange could become, something that was already talked sometime ago. It's interesting that Amakusa analogy about the children soldiers and that Ange could become that, is more or less the base to Erika's character. She even calls herself an intellectual rapist because what she likes to do is just reveal people's secret. Referring to Ange would mean her solving things with no goal in mind, and this is more or less what Erika does every time. On episode 6 when Ange becomes the "miko" of Featherine, in other words the reader, is the episode where Battler is the GM(writer), and we have Erika on the position of "reader", trying to solve the case. So on a way we can thing that the reader and the writer of the episode overlaps.

Well thinking on Erika as a representation of the "bad" Ange gives some kind of interesting interpretation.
First when you think that when Erika started to try to solve the murders on episode 5, she summoned Dlanor( and as much, her weapons), which is kind of interesting when you thing about what I said before about what they can represent and that her weapons were written with Ange in mind. So is kind of interesting to have the two of them as partners.

Then thinking about the ends there is a lot of difference concerning Erika there, the most interesting is Ange acting like Erika on the trick end and then she appears, almost as a ghost. I think that it's even possible to make a parallel between Ange/Erika on the trick end and Tohya/Battler on the magic end. On the magic End, Tohya goes to the Fukuin house, now similar to Rokkenjima. It's kind of important to think that "Ushiromiya Battler" "died" on rokkenjima and comes back (at least metaphorically) when his other identity, Tohya, kind of comes back to Rokkenjima's equivalent here, the Fukuin house. On the Trick end, after Ange kills Amakusa and Kawabata, Erika come back, on a place similar to where the true Furudo Erika died,on a boat near Rokkenjima. And the one there is Ange. So we can think that on both ends there is someone who dies on a place and come back when his other identity arrives there, connecting death and rebirth.

For me it kind of make sense because the trick end is the end where Ange doesn't really reflect about herself and just go down the road Amakusa feared on episode 4. On the magic end, Erika is not more with Ange because she passed through all of that proccess of auto-reflection, and as the blue key says "denied herself"(Erika), purging Erika's character from her. Again, it's interesting to take in consideration that on that end Erika is with Bern and Lambda.
While the relationship between Bern with rika and Lambda with takano is still something to debate, Bern is a lot of times thought as someone that was purged out of Rika, and we can kind of say the same about Lambda. So Bern was purged out of Rika, Lambda out of Takano and Erika was on that end, after Ange reflect about herself and "purging" out of her everything that represents Erika, together with the other two who are similar to her.

Another thing that I find interesting if we look with all of that in mind is that there are 3 main "groups" of characters on Umineko: The 7 sisters of purgatory, The chiesters and the Eiserne jungfrau. The interesting part is that each of them could have a direct relation to each of the members of Mariage sorciere. The 7 sisters of purgatory being based of the other servants of the fukuin house that Yasu met; the chiesters, while they can refer to the winchiesters, they can represent maria's ceramic bunnies too; and dlanor( and erika) representing some aspect from Ange. I think that is possible that Cornelia and Gertrude have they own "role" about Ange, but never thought too deep about that. I need to reread Umineko before talking about anything of the sort, but I kind of remember that almost all the scenes with them, they are interacting between themselves, dlanor and Erika, with the only exception being the party on ep8. The first thing that I thought was a talk between Maria and Beato were she says:

Quote:
Maria: "You're right... There are some magics that we can only see when we're kids... There are some that only adults can understand. Right now, Ange is between the two of those.
Beatrice: "She's lost the magic of children, and yet, she has yet to understand the magic of adults. The most painful period of one's life"
Looking by that perspective I kind of thought about Cornelia representing the child and Gertrude as the adult side. On the party of ep8 Gertrude is talking with Will, Nanjo and Genji about mystery books, and how things change with time. Cornelia on the other hand is talking with Rudolf, Krauss and Lucifer and the main point about the conversation is that Cornelia is still a KID because she still doesn't understand that rules are just guidelines and that she will be forever a "newcomer" if she doesn't learn how and when to work around them. While I don't have any kind of interpretation to the "rules" part, there's the fact that both of them have something to do with maturing.
On Gertrude case is referring more to mystery books and entertainment, while on Cornelia is more about a "newcomer" on an organization. I like the fact that Gertrude is the experienced member of Eiserne Jungfrau while Cornelia is the newcomer, to represent that point about the child and the adult. We could even interpret that Erika "Bullying" Cornelia as Ange denying her child like self.

But is still not a theory that I find solid enough, I mean, even Dlanor is said to be a child thousand of times, so it kind of lose the point of Cornelia being the child here.

Anyway itís ďjustĒ that and sorry if something is difficult to understand (probably is), I usually donít write anything in English.
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Old 2014-08-15, 14:51   Link #34544
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Quote:
From the first time that I was reading Umineko I found Dlanor's weapons really strange. The definition of what they do is ridiculous and not even really used on the story. During the fight of Dlanor with some characters they always do something like block or dodge her attack while the weapon's description says that it is impossible to do that. Of course, on Umineko world how powerful a character is will dependent more on how much intelligent he is, but if it's like that what even is the point of writing all that ? And for some reason it appears on the tips, who should serve to have an easy look on some important points of the story.
The blades are a metaphor. They represent the red rules of Knox and thus are absolute, but that's only if they actually apply. The characters don't so much dodge or block them so much as demonstrate that the blow isn't meaningful.

Your analysis is interesting though, thank you very much for sharing it! Your english is not difficult to read or understand!
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Old 2014-08-25, 05:04   Link #34545
fuff
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so after reading the manga and looking at the ps3 story i thought i should share my coloring from the manga page, again its pretty bloody but i thought this was a shocking scene, sorry if this is not allowed the image thread seems to be closed...

Spoiler for EP8:VERY bloody NSFW?:
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Old 2014-08-25, 06:22   Link #34546
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You're right, that's a very bloody scene, but I have to say that your colouring work on it is really excellent.
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Old 2014-08-25, 12:12   Link #34547
jjblue1
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Very good job!

BTW, in regard to the VN Version vs the manga version, I've noticed sometimes when I happen to read the manga, I get a completely different feeling from a scene, as if it was the first time I saw/read it... when it actually was in the VN and, skipping some slight differences in the translation, really the dialogues are just the same. But the scenes, the movements and faces of the characters just give me a different feeling.
Anyone else feel the same?

And since the discussion is sort of dead recently I propose something rather simple:
if Ep 8 will give us more additional material what would you like to know that wasn't said in the VN? Or which of the remaining scene would you like the manga to fix better?
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Old 2014-08-25, 16:59   Link #34548
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Hey all! my copy of the newest episode 7 volume just arrived, and inside it chapter 38, the second half of will and claire's duel. I hadn't been able to find this chapter online, and I assume other people have had the same problem. I dunno if anyone wants a translation for the latter solutions, but I'd be happy to give one if people do!
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Old 2014-08-25, 21:38   Link #34549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agiel View Post
Hey all! my copy of the newest episode 7 volume just arrived, and inside it chapter 38, the second half of will and claire's duel. I hadn't been able to find this chapter online, and I assume other people have had the same problem. I dunno if anyone wants a translation for the latter solutions, but I'd be happy to give one if people do!
You're right, I've been looking all over the place for this chapter and I haven't been able to find it anywhere! So if you could provide us with the translations, that'd be truly appreciated.
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Old 2014-08-26, 12:02   Link #34550
GoldenLand
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I also get a different feeling from the manga and the VN in places, due to the more elaborate expressions and settings. Even though I think the VN does exceptionally well at expressions, a manga just has more scope for these things.

And Agiel, I would love to see the second half of the ep 7 duel solutions! Many thanks to you if you do post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
if Ep 8 will give us more additional material what would you like to know that wasn't said in the VN? Or which of the remaining scene would you like the manga to fix better?
There are a lot of things that I'd like to know about, but in particular I'm keenest to know what happened to Battler on the last day on the island. There are things that we know must have happened but haven't seen the details of. Eva knew that Battler was alive at least up to a point. Beatrice must have explained the details of everything to Battler. Did Battler see the bodies, and what did he learn about who might have killed people? That sort of thing.

I also want to see the scenes with the mass goat battle. It was possible to read the VN scene as being critical of the fanbase - so to what extent will that be shown in the manga, or will it come over differently?
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Old 2014-08-26, 15:55   Link #34551
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Translations

Appologies if I'm off on anything, my Japanese is by no means perfect.
Second Game First twlight, Rosa is confirmed to be an accomplice along with nanjo and the servants, the door was never locked.
Second twilight: Kanon's corpse doesn't exist.
Fourth fifth and sixth twilights: Shannon explained herself to George, who rejected her, causing her to kill him and Gouda, and commit suicide by the mechanism explained in the keiya interview.
Seventh and eighth twilights: Genji killed both of them before going to find Rosa, Battler, and Maria

Third game, first twilight: Shannon's "corpse" left after being discovered, and moved to the chapel as Kanon.
Second twilight: Eva killed Rosa in a struggle, then silenced Maria
Fourth fifth and sixth twilights: Interestingly enough, here it notes that Eva and Hideyoshi were bought. I always assumed that Eva was just running around killing people with no knowledge of yasu's plans. Rudolph and Kyrie are shot, but a wounded Kyrie manages to kill Hideyoshi.
Seventh and Eighth twilights: Eva strangled the pair.

Fourth game, first twilight: Excluding battler, literally everyone was in on the scheme. The first twilight's text reads: The spirit world is a lie created in conspiracy.
Second twilight: George and Jessica are merely moving according to the scenario.
Fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights: The text here reads The demon, the witch, everything is a lie. On the next page, it shows Shannon shooting everyone, with "corpses can't speak" superimposed over the page.

After the solutions, Claire's sword explodes into petals, and Lion exclaims "how beautiful." Claire then asks Beatrice's final quesiton: "Who am I?"

The next page is a bit more of an enigma, possibly outside of my level of Japanese. In the text bubbles, it reads "The promised god of death, regardless of the will of the witch, closes the curtains on this tale." A fairly clear reference to the bomb. However, the text underneath reads, その死神こそが私。, which I would translate as "I am that god of death." which I can only take to be a sentence from the perspective of the bomb, strange though that is. The images on the page are of the bomb, and the island being blown up, but it would seem more natural to me at least to use これ rather than 私.

Claire finishes her tale, and the final two pages read:
To be born in sin, living to be forgiven by someone
Alternatively, born as a mystery, living to be solved by someone
Humans are mysteries
The world known as the self is the most obscure of mysteries
Living, wishing to be solved by someone
Finally, her wish was fulfilled
Her soul wanders no more.
Inside the coffin of the catbox,
Rest in peace for all eternity

It can't compare to reading the thing yourself, but I hope that helped anyone who couldn't find the chapter!
On a related note, I was surprised Eva beatrice's final red truth wasn't touched on, considering everything else was.
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Old 2014-08-26, 18:30   Link #34552
Ayu-ayu
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Actually a lot of that was covered here earlier, including links to some pics of the pages from this chapter...check this page:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=5117177

Might be good to compare notes with what was translated back then.

Edit: looking back, I don't think there was much discussion of the latter portion, though, but the pages for it can be viewed here:

http://beatotsundere.tumblr.com/post...-of-the-golden
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Old 2014-08-26, 19:31   Link #34553
Agiel
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Shoot, and I thought I had been thorough in making sure it hadn't come up before, sorry bout that =P
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Old 2014-08-27, 06:53   Link #34554
GoldenLand
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How could I forget that Haguruma already told us a good amount about the solutions to the latter games, after all the many great translations Haguruma's done for us at the forum here. But, there are a couple of extra details in your translation, Agiel, so that is really helpful stuff to know, and thank you very much for translating all that.
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Old 2014-08-28, 07:26   Link #34555
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I wonder why Eva would kill Kraus and Natsuhi in that scenario?

We knew it had to be herfrom the start though, there is no way Umineko would show us a heartwarming scene filled with Kraus' regrets regarding his strained relationship with Eva and NOT have it be a cover for her brutally murdering him.

As for Shannon and George in ep 2, Ryu always maintained that George would accept Shannon if she were honest. Maybe he just needed some time to come round, or maybe he was just less supportive when she also mentioned she was murdering his family in an attempt to get Battler's attention...
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Old 2014-08-29, 20:11   Link #34556
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I assume she was just fulfilling the epitaph at that point, she was an accomplice after all.
Agreed on the Shannon-George thing, killing someones family and sadistically stuffing candy in their stomachs makes for some damn hard explaining later.

I was re reading the episode four ura tea party earlier, and I noticed a confusing statement that I was hoping someone on here could explain.
Lambda notes that Beatrice only lowered one arm when she was 'defeated.' and bernkastel seems to understand what lambda is insinuating. What am I missing here? What does Beatrice's left arm have to do with anything?
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Old 2014-08-30, 03:33   Link #34557
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I'm assuming it was further insinuation that Beato was still holding something back, even though she claimed she was "exposing everything"

After all, Lambda basically just told Bern outright that most of Battler's answers were wrong, in that scene. Her dropped hand could correspond to her letting go of the mystery relating to the bomb, while her still-raised hand could concern the parts of her heart about Shkanonigans, which Battler hadn't even approached at that point.

Mind you, Ryukishi played fast and loose with how the Meta world "worked" several times (for example, Battler solves everything in EP4 but Beato is only sent comatose, whereas when Erika solves everything in EP5, Beato outright dies), but "she was still holding some good unplayed cards," I think, was the general intended sentiment.
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Old 2014-09-07, 08:36   Link #34558
GoldenLand
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Who do you all think the best developed character in Umineko is?

On one level, the best developed character definitely ought to be Yasu (in all her identities). The main aim of the series is to unravel the mystery of her identity and wishes, and when it's all added up I don't think there's any doubt that her various identities have had more time spent on them than any other character. In many ways she's been dealt with very subtly. Especially in the early few VNs, there were so many hints about Beatrice's mindset woven in with Kanon and Shannon. We've got a really good feel for the personalities of each of those three (even if Kanon gets less than the others), and for the author behind them.

But at the same time, the breadth of her personae can make her a little hard to grasp. We get to see Yasu's backstory and the way that she established the stories for those characters, but we don't exactly get to see her in action as a single, whole person in anything but flashbacks. It's not that I think Ryukishi necessarily messed up a lot with portraying her, but her nature is a bit stretched out and fragmented. So even though Yasu/Beatrice/etc ought to be the best developed character, it's a bit hard to say that she definitely is.

What about the others? I think it would have to come down to Eva, Rosa, Natsuhi, and Maria. Eva's personality was well handled regarding the treatment she received as a child and the problems it caused her, and the way that her ambition to prove herself to her family continued on even into adulthood but ended up at times making her someone she didn't like. Since Eva gets to live in some cases, she does get the added benefit of developing past the point of the last family conference, and the way that her relationship with Ange soured even while Eva still wanted to protect her in some ways is very interesting.

Natsuhi comes over as a very well fleshed out personality. I think her character is an especially distinct one even in a cast of memorable characters. We know her history in the family and exactly how she felt in the time before she had Jessica - her relationship with Krauss, and with Kinzo and the disdain from other family members. I don't think her relationship with Jessica gets a huge amount of time spent on it, but it's still an interesting one, with Natsuhi having such a lot of expectations for her and a strict attitude which must be partly a reaction to Natsuhi's feelings of inadequacy around the family. Then there's all the stuff with Kinzo's death and Natsuhi's reactions to it, where she's shown to be very driven and proud and also a bit delusional...and doing the wrong thing for the sake of her pride.

Rosa comes over as strongly characterised to me as well. I really like the juxtaposition of her as an apparently mature and brave adult and as a really childish person who shirks responsibility and blames others but also to some extent gets eaten up by guilt. It's obvious how she got that way and the sort of pressures she was under, and the whole cycle of abuse thing playing out with her and her daughter seems very realistic. Ryukishi is really good at making his characters simultaneously sympathetic and unsympathetic. I like some of the details with her a lot - for example, that she just works on the assumption that her siblings (or at least Eva) will always be a few steps ahead of her, but we also get to see that she's every bit as capable as Eva of solving the epitaph. What is really sad is that it's only in the ep 8 manga scenes for her that she starts to show real promise for breaking out of the abusive cycle she's in.

I'd need to think more about Maria. She does get quite a bit of attention, though it's a bit more spread out than some.
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Old 2014-09-08, 04:10   Link #34559
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The best developed character in my opinion was Beatrice. She starts as this awesome villain that you can't help to like. And there are tiny nuisances about which are part of the mystery of who she is. With the past, the human who represents her, the witch's love for Battler. She's a mystery and you change the way you view her character when you're playing Umineko. I'm pretty sure that's what character development does.

I also think the female adults were very developed. Like Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rosa and especially Eva. Eva's an awesome character, I never would have thought to sympathize with such a bully. But she's so complex and complicated.

From the cousins... they're pretty much the same in terms of development. They aren't ignored but they don't give out the vibes the parents do. Well, maybe except for Maria. By Episode 4 you understand how her minds works and how she deals with her problems. Like Beatrice, you change the way you look at her character.

None of the characters feel like card-board cut outs in Umineko if you ask me. Well, maybe except Genji and Gohda. But Genji being Genji is part of the mystery so I don't know if I should blame Ryu for not giving him enough screentime. I mean, Genji holds the answer to everything, right?
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Old 2014-09-09, 10:49   Link #34560
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Who do you all think the best developed character in Umineko is?
Rosa. Definitely Rosa. Hands down.

(Even in EP8 when she becomes a cardboard badass -which is poor in terms of writing- she's still pretty awesome.)
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