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Old 2009-11-27, 16:44   Link #3701
Megaolix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...Huh, you know, I never thought about that.

Isn't there red preventing that, though?
Actually, yes.

Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!


Edit: ...Or not. The room was never specified. But again, Eva was probably also on her guard until she reached her room. Even if they were attacked, I doubt you can kill both at the same time. Furthermore, considering the only wound noticed was the one that was drippling blood, there would have been trace of it if they were transported.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:46   Link #3702
Kaisos Erranon
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Ah, there we go, thank you.

Then either the closed room itself is faked (and there are many ways to do this. Like Battler says, we need to read more detective novels) or the perpetrator (one of the first twilight victims, most likely Shannon) is still inside the room when the others enter.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:47   Link #3703
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Megaolix View Post
Actually, yes.

Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!
Nope. What part of that red specifies which room it's referring to? The only requirement is that the killer was in the same room as the victims when they died.

It's also worth noting that Eva had her shoes on even though she was posed on the bed. Who puts on shoes before they answer the door?

EDIT: Whoops, ninja'd by Megaolix.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:49   Link #3704
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Nope. What part of that red specifies which room it's referring to? The only requirement is that the killer was in the same room as the victims when they died.
I think the last line is in the context of the "room in which they were found", but I'd need to play the Ep4 Tea Party again.

In any case, they'd still need to use a chain trick or be hiding in the room, regardless of where the victims were killed.


Edit: Ah, a post edit.

Yeah, you have a point, there'd be more blood if the bodies had been moved.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:52   Link #3705
Megaolix
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I noticed it just after posting this too.

But that severely limits the number of suspects in that case. Anyone 'alive' missing when Eva and Hideyoshi left?
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:53   Link #3706
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Megaolix View Post
But that severely limits the number of suspects in that case. Anyone 'alive' missing when Eva and Hideyoshi left?
I think Kanon and Genji were wandering around at the time.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:54   Link #3707
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yeah, you have a point, there'd be more blood if the bodies had been moved.
Not necessarily. Some of that blood could be red paint, especially if the culprit really wants it to look like they were killed in the room. It's the same trick that was probably used to fake the murder scenes in Episode 5.
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Old 2009-11-27, 16:58   Link #3708
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Not necessarily. Some of that blood could be red paint, especially if the culprit really wants it to look like they were killed in the room. It's the same trick that was probably used to fake the murder scenes in Episode 5.
...No, there's not ENOUGH blood on their bodies for them to have been moved. The only blood on Eva and Hideyoshi's corpses are the blood on their foreheads... although I will admit that they could have been washed off. Their shower was running, after all.

Red paint looks very little like blood, also.


Actually, I've been wondering something for a while now... why did Kanon and Genji need those shears to open the door? With nearly all chain-locked doors, if your arms are thin enough, it's pretty easy to reach through the gap and unlock the chain yourself.

Or, you know, lock it again after committing the murders.
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:02   Link #3709
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You guys are drawing an awful lot of conclusions from a cover that may not have anything to do with anything really. Besides, that could just as easily be George's "embarassed" face as his "evil" face.

Nothing says where Hideyoshi and Eva were from the time they left to the time Battler saw their corpses. Someone could have killed them and taken them into their room just as easily as they could have been let into the room and killed there. The killer would've had to hide somewhere though, unless the chain is a trick. This does mean you have to assume Genji and/or Kanon are lying though.

Also just to note something...

Quote:
But honestly, a human who was willing to kill his parents and the whole family for money and to get freed, while being able to fake the tears so perfectly, was just a monster. I doubt Ryukishi07 would invoke such a downturn (though it was certainly a powerful twist.).
We have to accept that someone on Rokkenjima has a hidden nature which is not as they appear to be and that this person is willing to commit murder. There is an incredibly, incredibly slim chance of one of the people killing others having a "good" reason for doing it (that is, a reason which is not immediately dismissable as excessive). However, I suspect that to the killers their particular reasons for killing make sense, if only to them.

If we accept this is true, then we must be willing to consider the possibility that George, or Shannon, or Kumasawa, or Gohda, or some other person who seems harmless or nice is in fact neither of these things. Battler is pained at having to accuse anyone because he does not know what they are truly thinking. Once he learned Natsuhi's internal nature, he instinctively leapt to her defense. Battler is a good judge of people, but bad at figuring out people's true nature. Thus, he errs on the side of caution when he can. He wants to believe everyone is like Natsuhi. But someone on the island cannot be. At least one person must not be as we see them to be.

One of those people being George/Shannon/Jessica/Kanon is an obvious choice, narratively. People will defend the pairing for emotional reasons and stop thinking. Does that mean one of the four is definitely one of the people hiding their true nature? No, not necessarily. He might use ep6 to hint at that and destroy it. Or he might use ep6 to reinforce their "innocent" nature to hide it further.

At this point about the only non-Battler person I completely absolve is Natsuhi. ep5 has shown so much of her nature now that I'm inclined to agree with Battler that there are things she wouldn't do. Granted, she also has one of the strongest motives (protecting Kinzo and Krauss's honor), and is "crazy," but I think the point of ep5 was to show that having a good motive, no alibi, and an unstable mental state isn't going to make you the killer in Umineko. The killer(s) are very deliberate and probably quite sane. So I'd be looking at the calm, collected people with suspicion.

But we don't know a thing about ep6 right now, so who knows.
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:03   Link #3710
Megaolix
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It was declared a locked room, meaning you couldn't enter or exit like that.

About the next murder...

All of the survivors have alibis!Let us include the dead as well!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in this state that the alibis have to be true, am I wrong?

As for my ring theory, is it too crazy? As far as I remember, there was no letter in Ep3 after Shannon's death was declared in red, right?
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:10   Link #3711
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaolix View Post
It was declared a locked room, meaning you couldn't enter or exit like that.
What was the exact red for that again? The room is still locked, and you are locking and unlocking it, if not by conventional methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaolix View Post
All of the survivors have alibis!Let us include the dead as well!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in this state that the alibis have to be true, am I wrong?
...Actually, yeah. Alibis aren't defined as a true excuse, just an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This does mean you have to assume Genji and/or Kanon are lying though.
Don't we always assume this, though? >_>

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Granted, she also has one of the strongest motives (protecting Kinzo and Krauss's honor), and is "crazy," but I think the point of ep5 was to show that having a good motive, no alibi, and an unstable mental state isn't going to make you the killer in Umineko.
Schizophrenics like Natsuhi generally aren't the sort of people to commit murders, either, despite being quite crazy... they're too stuck in their own deluded worlds.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The killer(s) are very deliberate and probably quite sane. So I'd be looking at the calm, collected people with suspicion.
Like, ah, George?
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:11   Link #3712
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Originally Posted by Megaolix View Post
About the next murder...

All of the survivors have alibis!Let us include the dead as well!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in this state that the alibis have to be true, am I wrong?
It's unclear. You are correct that an alibi is merely an explanation; "I was with Bob" does not necessarily prove you actually were. If someone did something, then it must be the case that one of the alibis provided is false.

Of course in Kanon's case it's entirely possible he wasn't killed at all, and wasn't even actually attacked, in which case everyone else would have a valid alibi, since none of them did anything.
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:16   Link #3713
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...No, there's not ENOUGH blood on their bodies for them to have been moved. The only blood on Eva and Hideyoshi's corpses are the blood on their foreheads... although I will admit that they could have been washed off. Their shower was running, after all.
Oh, I see what you mean. For some reason I remembered more blood than that. But the wound was stopped up with a stake, so wouldn't that reduce the blood flow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
Actually, I've been wondering something for a while now... why did Kanon and Genji need those shears to open the door? With nearly all chain-locked doors, if your arms are thin enough, it's pretty easy to reach through the gap and unlock the chain yourself.

Or, you know, lock it again after committing the murders.
Ryukishi shot that down in one of his interviews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi
[Concerning locked rooms] The somewhat more interesting theory is this: "In the Eva/Hideyoshi locked room from EP1, the door chain is a bit long." There is no conflict with the description in the game, and it is a locked room. All [the culprit] has to do is reach through the door gap and take off the door chain (smile). Even though this is not the truth, it's a unique theory.
In practice, good chains aren't that long anyway. They'd be totally useless if you could just reach in and unlock them. Although if Ryukishi hadn't said this, you could theorize that the culprit replaced the chain with a longer one beforehand.
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:22   Link #3714
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The killer(s) are very deliberate and probably quite sane. So I'd be looking at the calm, collected people with suspicion.
This would fit Kyrie perfectly.
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Old 2009-11-27, 17:46   Link #3715
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Ryukishi shot that down in one of his interviews.
Damn.

Well then, we go back to a magnet/tape/etc. having been used OR the killer hiding in the room.

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Originally Posted by Teapot View Post
This would fit Kyrie perfectly.
Except that Kyrie is absolutely dead at the very start of the first two games.
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:09   Link #3716
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Except that Kyrie is absolutely dead at the very start of the first two games.
There are almost certainly multiple killers. Looking for the calm and collected type means suspecting people like George and Kyrie, but of course neither could've committed or arranged every death.

It also assumes you're looking for the devil in plain sight. If you're a calculating killer, a good way to dodge suspicion is to appear to be impulsive and emotional. Someone like Gohda or Rosa looks too emotionally flighty to be a calculating murderer, but how much do we really know? In this case I'm less suspicious of Rosa and Gohda and more of someone like, say, Nanjo. Kumasawa maybe. These two definitely know more than they let on, but they like to "let on" a lot of things about their own incompetence/inability to tell a straight-faced lie/etc.

If I wanted to make sure nobody thought I could be the killer, I'd certainly pretend I wasn't competent enough to do it. But for that to work, there'd have to be hints. There are hints that the calm, collected types may know more about the murders than they're telling (George and Maria, Kyrie's phone call). There are also hints that the goofy loveable types are not as harmless as they might seem (Kumasawa and Nanjo's payoff safes and backstory).

And then there's the possibility that "Beatrice" or the staker (if they aren't one and the same) aren't even planning murder to begin with. Certainly someone is, but the person with the most elaborate and showy plans may not be the one actually killing (or may not be the best killer). The reverse is also perhaps true (the killer who has the best showmanship is actually taking advantage of other killers' victims).
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:13   Link #3717
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As for Eva & Hide, ep 1, how about:
- Killer leaves through window
- Killer (or accomplice) locks the window from the inside after they break into the room.
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Old 2009-11-27, 18:57   Link #3718
EmilioXChaltier
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I don't know if someone raised this question before, but I've been wondering for a long time if Kanon could be alive in EP1...

Quote:
All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!!
In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide
Kanon did not die in an accident!
Is being caught in a trap considered as killed ? If not, there is a chance that Kanon never died in EP1 and concealed it in some way ?

Moreover his whereabouts in EP2 and EP4 are very suspicious. Maybe the Kanon from "Kanon is dead" doesn't mean it's this emo-furniture since it is not his real name. If it is the case, it'll be a bit cheap from Ryukishi

I think EP6 will destroy (without mercy) my thoughts about him.
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Old 2009-11-27, 19:07   Link #3719
Escargotage
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So, I was re-reading the ending of Episode 2, with Rosa-Musou and I was thinking of the theory that the "goat-heads" were really a landslide and the butterflies were flames. I got to thinking, "Why would Rosa be stupid enough to fire bullets into a landslide to try and stop it?" and a thought came to me. Is it at all possible for there to have been a gas leak inside of the mansion that would cause the family to become delusional from brain damage? Thus making it entirely plausible for her to see them as such?
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Old 2009-11-27, 19:55   Link #3720
Renall
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I don't know if someone raised this question before, but I've been wondering for a long time if Kanon could be alive in EP1...

Is being caught in a trap considered as killed ? If not, there is a chance that Kanon never died in EP1 and concealed it in some way ?
There's nothing that says Kanon died in ep1, and in fact, the ep4 red text makes it very clear that if he died at all, he died in some very odd circumstances. A popular theory right now is that Kanon's death was faked. Basically, there are several possible scenarios:

1) Kanon was attacked by someone but didn't die. The red prohibits any person living or dead from killing him, but it doesn't prevent them from assaulting him. Nanjo was able to save Kanon's life, but he was either too wounded to move or was okay but wanted to operate incognito. Either he or Nanjo and Jessica decided they'd lie and say Kanon was dead, either to protect him from the killer (who wouldn't go looking for someone "dead") or to allow Kanon to hunt down the killer in secret.

2) Kanon attacked himself for unknown reasons or faked being attacked, and either convinced Nanjo and Jessica he was dead, convinced them to tell everyone he was dead, or was working with them all along to pretend he was dead. If Kanon was the killer, fake-killing himself would allow him to continue the murders without being suspected. In this case I find it hard to believe Jessica would be okay with it, but perhaps Nanjo lied to Jessica or Kanon was able to fool or threaten Nanjo.

Basically it comes down to whether Kanon was really injured, and from there, whether Kanon is a culprit. If he's injured, he might have been called dead to protect him while vulnerable. If he's not injured, he's either a culprit or trying to catch the culprit unaware.
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