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Old 2009-12-01, 01:42   Link #3761
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Spoiler for EP 6:
Juuza works for Okonogi technically and Okonogi is said to have connections with the family (well at least Rudolf's family and Hideyoshi's families confirmed). I don't think it really matters whether it was Eva or not.
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:07   Link #3762
Keylo
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Sorry to derail a bit, but has anyone ever analyzed the kanji of "The Golden Land" or any possible cultural significance/etc that it might have ties to? After reading the translated interview I can't help but wonder if that one of the two might be the key to resolving what the "answer" is... (Unfortunately, my knowledge of japanese is far too pitiful to act on this idea...)
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:39   Link #3763
Renall
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Who's to say it isn't ep3 1998 again? We don't know when Ange supposedly died in 1998. Maybe what we thought happened to her didn't. Maybe there was a kakera very similar to that of ep3's where an Ange lived, and it continues from that one. Maybe the 1998 we saw wasn't from ep3 at all.

The backgrounds in the Juuza/Ange screenshots are clearly Kuwadorian. Which means they're on Rokkenjima and they're at Kuwadorian. Where they were going before. It seems likely the Ange that would be there would be in similar or identical conditions to the one we saw before, so for all practical purposes she might as well be "that" Ange.

Unless he pulls a real fast one on us.
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:47   Link #3764
Jan-Poo
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I have also tried to find a pattern for the twilights but I couldn't find anything relevant. The only thing I have found is something that I have noticed since a long time:

The victims of the first twilight are always 3 males and 3 females

With Ep3 as the only exception to this rule. Or maybe it isn't an exception...

If Kanon is female not only we would have exactly 9 males and 9 females on the island, but we would also have a perfect ratio of 6:7 between males and females of the victims up to the eight twilight. This would work for all episodes from 1 to 4. And if Kanon is not a girl it still works from ep 2 to 4.

I am not sure that this is relevant for understanding the pattern, but it is extremely unlikely that this happened randomly without Ryukishi planning it.

For what concerns the ending scroll, what bothers me is the fact that it mentions people dying at the ninth and tenth twilight, even so everyone is supposed to die on the ninth twilight and none is supposed to die at the tenth. However RYukishi goes all the way to explain who dies at ninth and who dies at the tenth even when there are no clear signs to tell the difference inside the story.

For example why in EP4 Kinzo Gohda and Kumasawa die at the ninth twilight and Battler and Maria both die at the tenth even so a whole day passed in between?

Why Ep2 is the only one where noone dies at the ninth twilight?
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:51   Link #3765
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If the First Twilight victims were some balanced ratio of males to females, why would the killer do this? Nowhere does the epitaph say to do this even if you read the "kill" and "sacrifice" instructions literally. And it's always different groups of people. I'd chalk it up to coincidence, as we frequently wind up with couples among the parents killed and they naturally will be one male and one female each.
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:56   Link #3766
Jan-Poo
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try extracting randomly 6 marbles from a sample of 9 white and 9 black and see how many times it happen that you have a 3:3 ratio.
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:57   Link #3767
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
try extracting randomly 6 marbles from a sample of 9 white and 9 black and see how many times it happen that you have a 3:3 ratio.
The killings are not random!
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Old 2009-12-01, 02:58   Link #3768
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Exactly, or at very least they follow some rules...
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Old 2009-12-01, 03:02   Link #3769
k//eternal
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Well, if there is an exception, the probability of the combined event is a lot higher, so the conclusion might be premature. It's an interesting observation for sure, though.
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Old 2009-12-01, 03:04   Link #3770
Jan-Poo
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yeah let's say there's no error in Kanon's gender assessment then it's female:male

3:3 - 3:3 - 2:4 - 3:3 - 3:3

not as odd as 5 in a row but still very hard to happen naturally, plus Ryukishi said that in Ep3 something went wrong.
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Old 2009-12-01, 03:05   Link #3771
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The backgrounds in the Juuza/Ange screenshots are clearly Kuwadorian.
That could be true but isn't that just an opinion at this point?

Here are screenshots of the confirmed interior of Kuwadorian (left) and the one from episode 6 (right).
Spoiler for Episode 6 screen:
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Old 2009-12-01, 03:19   Link #3772
LaplaceNoMa
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There were some theories that implied that Shannon was alive in ep1 after the first twilight.
However, none of this theories mention anything about how she could leave the storehouse when it was locked with a new lock.
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Old 2009-12-01, 03:33   Link #3773
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
There were some theories that implied that Shannon was alive in ep1 after the first twilight.
However, none of this theories mention anything about how she could leave the storehouse when it was locked with a new lock.
Battler never returned to the storehouse after Natsuhi relocked it, and there was a long period between the first and second twilights during which a number of people were not under observation. It's possible that someone went back to the storehouse later and cut the lock off, or sawed through the shutter like Battler did in Episode 4.

A less credible idea is that there is another entrance to the storehouse, which does not count as a secret passage because Battler didn't look for it. There is no red text stating that the storehouse is a closed room.
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Old 2009-12-01, 03:37   Link #3774
Jan-Poo
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and comparing Ep1 and Ep4 the cutter is in a different location, which might be a hint that someone used it in Ep1
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Old 2009-12-01, 03:46   Link #3775
MeoTwister5
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I was meaning to ask but where did you people get shots of Ep6?
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Old 2009-12-01, 04:10   Link #3776
LyricalAura
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Okay, here's an idea for the second twilight of Episode 1 that doesn't require Shannon hiding in the closet...

It's been proposed before that since the chain was already broken when Battler arrived, it might never have been set in the first place, and the scene with Kanon cutting the chain could be a lie. But that would mean that Genji, Kanon, and Kumasawa were all agreeing to lie about it. Why would they do that?

The servants found Eva's body somewhere in the mansion sometime after she and Hideyoshi left the parlor. They went back to the couple's room and found Hideyoshi dead in the shower. The servants realized that more people were going to die, so they created a plan to spook and flush out the culprit. They dragged Eva's body into the bedroom and staked both corpses, painted a pentacle on the door, planted the 3rd twilight letter, and agreed to lie that the room was sealed by the chain, all in order to make it look like a weird ceremony was being carried out. They also burned and staked Kinzo's body, and planned for Kanon to fake his death. In other words, the 2nd through 5th twilights were all a charade carried out to fool the real murderer.

Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that the plan was suggested by the real murderer, or that the real murderer was let in on it at some point.
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Old 2009-12-01, 04:33   Link #3777
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The servants found Eva's body somewhere in the mansion sometime after she and Hideyoshi left the parlor. They went back to the couple's room and found Hideyoshi dead in the shower. The servants realized that more people were going to die, so they created a plan to spook and flush out the culprit. They dragged Eva's body into the bedroom and staked both corpses, painted a pentacle on the door, planted the 3rd twilight letter, and agreed to lie that the room was sealed by the chain, all in order to make it look like a weird ceremony was being carried out. They also burned and staked Kinzo's body, and planned for Kanon to fake his death. In other words, the 2nd through 5th twilights were all a charade carried out to fool the real murderer.

Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that the plan was suggested by the real murderer, or that the real murderer was let in on it at some point.
The existence of the stakes implied heavily that the killing was planned ahead, but not some spooking created just after bodies were found. (if you say the stakes belong to Kinzo previously, then you have to account how they appeared EP3 as well when all servants were murdered in the first twilight.

The situation should be like that: Genji entered Eva's room since he was a servant so Eva and Hideyoshi did not suspect him. He killed both and then told the one (Shannon or whoever faked death in the first twilight) to hide in the room to make the chain-lock closed room worked.

Latter, Genji pretended that he and Kanon just discovered the room was locked. This does not require someone knowing Eva and Hideyoshi would retire to their romo and had to hide in their room beforehand.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only rules I found in the 1st twilight EP1-4 are that:

1. The cousins were not touched.

2. The culprit chose the victims depending on how much attention the adults paid to the epitaph.

3. The culprit picked the solitary person or small group of people.

And in EP5 the rules were broken and obviously the culprit targets the cousins. And you have to think that it was very dangerous for the culprit to do so as it would raise the adults' alert to the highest point and definitely to kill the cousins staying in the same room was very risky. He or she must have a good reason to do so. (Concerning the red texts, either what Battler saw was faked death or he told lies or the narrator told lies.)

Think why the culprit would target them in EP5 was one major breakthrough, I think.
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Old 2009-12-01, 04:39   Link #3778
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
The existence of the stakes implied heavily that the killing was planned ahead, but not some spooking created just after bodies were found. (if you say the stakes belong to Kinzo previously, then you have to account how they appeared EP3 as well when all servants were murdered in the first twilight.
According to the Episode 5 tea party, they did belong to Kinzo previously, and he's had them for years. They're just ugly paperweights he picked up somewhere. And for Episode 3, what about Nanjo, who is one of Kinzo's closest friends and a huge mystery buff?
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Old 2009-12-01, 04:46   Link #3779
ijriims
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
According to the Episode 5 tea party, they did belong to Kinzo previously, and he's had them for years. They're just ugly paperweights he picked up somewhere. And for Episode 3, what about Nanjo, who is one of Kinzo's closest friends and a huge mystery buff?
Personally, I don't believe he could be the culprit behind most of the death in EP3 (to consider he killed Kyrie, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, George...) , considering his old age, fitness and lack of motivation.

And that put question on who killed him at last, as he would definitely checked closely whether the people he staked were really dead (so many way to check right? iris contraction, pulse, etc)
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Old 2009-12-01, 04:53   Link #3780
Renall
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That could be true but isn't that just an opinion at this point?
I've extracted the backgrounds, but as it turns out I was wrong. That background appears nowhere in the /secrethouse/ folder. That said, parts of Kuwadorian appear in /guesthouse/, however this background image wasn't there either. Nor was it in the /mainbuilding/ folder. I went looking for it, because I was convinced I've seen it before, but I can't find any background image anywhere in the .nsa that matches it.

Thus, it's a new background. I would be willing to stake a bet (not really, but you know what I mean) that it's Kuwadorian, an area as-yet not shown because of something important to be found or shown there. I am absolutely certain it is not part of the mansion or guesthouse, at any rate.

I should note that a huge number of background images are left unused. An enormous number are related to the garden of Kuwadorian, although if you're perceptive, there's a part in ep4 where you can see that very garden! You won't know what you're looking at without the pictures to compare, however...
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