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Old 2009-12-01, 14:07   Link #3801
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kit View Post
Mmm...It's just that the impression I got from episode 5 spoilers is that she wanted to aid him in solving the puzzle...It seems counter productive to me to equivocate so often xP It also seems like if the red is so dishonest about being honest, then nearly none of it can be taken at face value, which is what it was originally intended for...
It's counterproductive to not just tell him the truth to begin with, so she has some kind of reason for making it a riddle. If it is a riddle, it needs to be solvable, which red text does allow (as it rules out a lot of things). However, it is odd that she would intentionally mislead, unless she has an objective beyond just "Battler must find the truth." If Battler has to be in a particular mindset or develop a particular set of reasoning skills to fully understand the truth, misleading him might be necessary.

For instance, if the "main" culprit is a person Battler frequently hangs out with, Battler would be inclined not to suspect them. By misleading him with red, he comes to understand that truth can be manipulated. Maybe that leads him to realize that someone can be a mastermind for the killings while remaining safely under Battler's supervision. Or whatever.
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Old 2009-12-01, 15:37   Link #3802
YdoUask
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I think the Beatrice is just Battler's embodiment of the mystery surrounding his death as he lay dieing. The chapters are the stages of grief. This would explain the increase in characters as well with the following reasons:

Spoiler for theory + ep6 guess:


So, that's my Meta-examination, doesn't solve a lick of the mystery, but it would explain the concept of Meta-Battler other than a tool to narrate. As far as the mystery goes, if Battler can solve it, then he can finally die, which would mean that Ange's bad future would come true.
Spoiler for ep 6 char:
If he can't solve it, then he is going to keep trying and trying, until he comes to terms with his own death. So Yeah....


Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Talking about killling orders in the 1st twilights:

In EP1, the decisive factor was Jessica giving the amulet to Natsuhi and Eva and Hideyoshi retreated to their room (which was suspicious)

In EP2, the factor was the showup of suit Beatrice in front of Rosa and Kyrie, thus triggering the call for this VIP during the dinner.

In EP3, the factor was Rosa recalling the death of cliff-falling Beatrice? And that the siblings did unite together to fight Beatrice and to solve the epitaph? Of course the fact that the adults sticking together was also one factor (but it was also true in EP2, while in EP3 Beato did not show up to anyone)

In EP4, Kyrie told Krauss she suspected Kinzo was already dead, forcing him to prove Kinzo was alive in that day.

In EP5, the discovery of the gold by Battler, obviously.


I could not find any general rules among them. Only that we could identify the factors in each episode.
Applying my theory, EP1 is the only Episode where anything happens that is 100% believable. The reason the murders occurred is because there is a murderer on the island.

Ep2 was because Battler was too accepting of his parents

Ep3 was because Battler was trying too hard to solve the mystery

Ep4 was because Battler let the delusion repeat, (similar to Ep1)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As far as using this method to solve the mysteries goes, I think the murderer will be whoever fits the bill for Battler's state of mind. So if Nanjo really was a killer in EP3, or any other one really, it would be fine. It would work in EP3 because Battler was focused intensely on the mystery aspect, which means the pieces could make more advanced moves. It would work in EP1 because all normal mystery traits apply to that episode. It would work in EP2 because he was not thinking in a way conductive to solving mysteries, as such, Beatrice could have moved him as she wished. It would also work in Ep4 because Battler was again, not focused on the mystery.

In other words, the murder can only be someone who would mesh with the conditions of Battlers mind, in the case of who could not be the murderer, Kannon should almost never the the murder, and if he is, it is not on purpose. In EP1 Kannon stood up to Beatrice, so in Battler's eyes, he should always be fighting the culprit, although Beatrice may take liberty to twist this and show Kannon fighting the Stakes (delusions and ideas Kannon is trying to reign in so that he can stop the culprit) or show him killing people, as in Ep2, where Nanjo and Kumasawa were killed by "him". This may be because Kannon thought Nanjo was actually the murderer, or affiliated with him/her and in reality had taken Kumasawa as a hostage. Being rash, he decided to charge, which resulted in Nanjo killing Kumasawa by Kanon's actions and Nanjo's death. Beatrice had to declare him dead in red this Arc, which means it can be twisted to mean "Yes, Kannon died, he is no longer the same person after having killed Kumasawa".

So Yeah...
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Old 2009-12-01, 15:51   Link #3803
ameskitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kit View Post
Quick question - I forget, when Kanon was killed with Jessica, was there a red confirming his death? He seems to be the most slippery of all the characters in terms of death times and body location Haha!
Yes, and in EP4 too (though you probably know that seeing as it's one of the only red texts relevant to that game XD).

Remember that they didn't look out the window in EP2 (the most obvious place to throw a body) - all we know is that it was locked, which means nothing to a culprit when Jessica's key is sitting right there on the nightstand.
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Old 2009-12-01, 17:35   Link #3804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
For the 1st twilight of EP3, my idea is that one of the servants killed all the others in different places, then he was killed by the culprit in the appointed place.

Only the boiler room contained a backdoor which was not lockable at all.

So first the culprit entered the VIP room and put the boiler room's key in and locked the room. (Genji's body)
I don't know about that back door. I read through the EP1 boiler room scene a few times, and while it was extremely unclear, I have the impression that the courtyard had one door to the boiler room and two doors (without locks) which lead to the mansion. If the boiler room couldn't be locked completely, it's likely that anyone who knew the mansion or was in the room would know, and I doubt that the game would turn the characters that clueless just to play a trick on us.
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Old 2009-12-01, 18:01   Link #3805
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
I don't know about that back door. I read through the EP1 boiler room scene a few times, and while it was extremely unclear, I have the impression that the courtyard had one door to the boiler room and two doors (without locks) which lead to the mansion. If the boiler room couldn't be locked completely, it's likely that anyone who knew the mansion or was in the room would know, and I doubt that the game would turn the characters that clueless just to play a trick on us.
The servants were dead, its not too hard to believe that Krauss and Natsuhi have been very few times to the boiler room and might not remember it.
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Old 2009-12-01, 18:03   Link #3806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
I don't know about that back door. I read through the EP1 boiler room scene a few times, and while it was extremely unclear, I have the impression that the courtyard had one door to the boiler room and two doors (without locks) which lead to the mansion. If the boiler room couldn't be locked completely, it's likely that anyone who knew the mansion or was in the room would know, and I doubt that the game would turn the characters that clueless just to play a trick on us.
Genji also clearly said in Episode 1 that since the boiler room door inside the mansion was locked, that meant the culprit had to have a master key. If the door to the courtyard didn't have a lock, then the culprit could have just gone in and out through it without having a key at all.

That reminds me, where was the boiler room key in Episode 1? Was it ever accounted for?

EDIT: All of the keys to the closed room chain in Episode 3 were locked up inside the closed room chain. A thing is not "locked up" inside a room unless all of the room's entrances are locked.
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Old 2009-12-01, 19:31   Link #3807
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Bu the question still remains, how in the world the boiler room was locked if there is no lock on the door that leads to the internal courtyard? How could Ryukishi have missed to explain this particular?
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Old 2009-12-01, 20:44   Link #3808
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Spoiler for EP 5 and 6:
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Old 2009-12-01, 21:47   Link #3809
Jan-Poo
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How can you expect an answer about something that wasn't released yet ^^;;;
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Old 2009-12-01, 22:20   Link #3810
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Originally Posted by jan-poo View Post
how can you expect an answer about something that wasn't released yet ^^;;;
...oh duh im an idiot.
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Old 2009-12-02, 00:45   Link #3811
LyricalAura
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What I mean is, Genji's reasoning suggests that it actually does have a lock. Like imaginari said before, the bit about doors without locks only applies to the two ground level courtyard doors.
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Old 2009-12-02, 02:10   Link #3812
Jan-Poo
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this kinda defies the logic of the explanation that was given

Quote:
Because the courtyard couldn't be entered from outside the mansion, the doors had been built without locks.
So what is exactly the sense of not making locks for 2 out of 3 doors but making one for the third? If the reason is that it wasn't necessary for them to have locks since they lead to the internal courtyard then why in the world the boiler room's door should be different?
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Old 2009-12-02, 02:11   Link #3813
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Which points in the mansion did the courtyard lead to again?
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Old 2009-12-02, 02:21   Link #3814
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So what is exactly the sense of not making locks for 2 out of 3 doors but making one for the third? If the reason is that it wasn't necessary for them to have locks since they lead to the internal courtyard then why in the world the boiler room's door should be different?
To keep curious Ushiromiya children from wandering in and maiming themselves with a hatchet or falling in the boiler. It's not exactly the safest room in the mansion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal
Which points in the mansion did the courtyard lead to again?
Evil Kanon came into the kitchen through one of them in Episode 2. If I remember Episode 1 correctly, the other one opened directly into a hallway, although I'd need to reread that part to be sure.
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Old 2009-12-02, 03:32   Link #3815
ijriims
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The inner courtyard was used mainly by the servants for them to go through the boiler room, the kitchen and get around the mansion quickly. Other people rarely used it.

It was evident sine in EP1 when the group of people got into the boiler room, Natsuhi asked Genji where the backdoor lead to. So most likely even though Krauss's family has been livnig here for these years, they never actually get into the boiler room and knew about the backdoor at all. And for the other adults, surely they couldn't know it if they were not on the island often.

Before Kanon rushed into the boiler room, it was narrated that he needed to rush since he knew the culprit was still inside the boiler room and he had to quick so the culprit could not escape..... through the backdoor.

The backdoor to the courtyard may have a lock, but I doubt any servants would lock it out of convenicence. Jessica was already 18 years old and the only children at that time were Maria and Ange, who would be looked after by the cousins and had little chance to venture into inner courtyard and boiler room.

However, the chain-closed-rooms mystery may not be solved so easily as anyone with a good memory could recall the existence of such a backdoor.

So the truth may be some windows of the room were not locked. And consider only the parlor and the chapel were in the ground floor while having numerous windows. It could be the case one of the windows from one of the place was unlocked.

If the boiler room's backdoor was the key to answer this mystery, it could be the case that these chain-room was not closed rooms to the adults on the gameboard, but mystery to Battler still.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-02 at 04:10.
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Old 2009-12-02, 03:45   Link #3816
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
To keep curious Ushiromiya children from wandering in and maiming themselves with a hatchet or falling in the boiler. It's not exactly the safest room in the mansion.
This is pure conjecture. The best you could push this to is that it is a cat box and that would make the Boiler's room to the courtyard having a lock or don't having a lock equally probable.

Even in this case my point still remain. Since the backdoor of the boiler room is at the very least a 50% plausible possibile way to explain the chain closed room, it can't be that Ryukishi simply forgot to mention it.
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Old 2009-12-02, 03:48   Link #3817
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It also escapes the "hidden tunnel" criterion easily, because you know about its existence. If anything, it's only fair game because it's hidden in plain sight, and whether or not it's the solution to the chained rooms, I'm willing to bet it's pretty significant stuff.
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Old 2009-12-02, 06:39   Link #3818
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Okay, here's an idea for the second twilight of Episode 1 that doesn't require Shannon hiding in the closet...

It's been proposed before that since the chain was already broken when Battler arrived, it might never have been set in the first place, and the scene with Kanon cutting the chain could be a lie. But that would mean that Genji, Kanon, and Kumasawa were all agreeing to lie about it. Why would they do that?

The servants found Eva's body somewhere in the mansion sometime after she and Hideyoshi left the parlor. They went back to the couple's room and found Hideyoshi dead in the shower. The servants realized that more people were going to die, so they created a plan to spook and flush out the culprit. They dragged Eva's body into the bedroom and staked both corpses, painted a pentacle on the door, planted the 3rd twilight letter, and agreed to lie that the room was sealed by the chain, all in order to make it look like a weird ceremony was being carried out. They also burned and staked Kinzo's body, and planned for Kanon to fake his death. In other words, the 2nd through 5th twilights were all a charade carried out to fool the real murderer.

Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that the plan was suggested by the real murderer, or that the real murderer was let in on it at some point.
Interesting theory I like it but it's kind of off. If you can't trust any scene out of red you'd be stuck at the mercy of Beatrice. Beatrice stopped this by reducing the use of Red, to not trust any scene just because Battler didn't witness it or it wasn't stated in Red will not get you anywhere, you have to think about it long and hard but I believe the magical scenes are the main ones we should question.
Of course you can say that Genji, Kumasawa and the other servents lied about Kinzo being alive. This is a circular argument and will not get you anywhere you just have to be critical, to outright claim a lie to every situation isn't something productive. We know the servants lied. This is an advantage not a disadvantage. Like so.....


The Umbrella Problem:

Shannon, Kumasawa, and Kanon all claimed to be working at the bedrooms cleaning them, they had Natsuhi there to pass the buck off them when the dinner began. All three groups of people passed the buck when it was time to own up to the giver of the umbrella. The kids were together Battler was there to confirm this. The adults had been together as well, Natsuhi is innocent so we can trust her when it comes to the group as a whole. However she is naive as well. The servants are the only ones that can realistically give Maria the umbrella.

Natsuhi had unknowingly gave the perfect alibi to the servants.

Shannon or Kumasawa gave Maria the umbrella under the guise of cleaning the rooms.

I looked at the dinner as a whole and seen the pattern, The kids gave the perfect alibi, the adults have the perfect alibi and the servants have the perfect alibi. This went in a circle they said they didn't do it and thought someone else did it. This is a circular argument, if you can't see the problem with the argument as a whole you have to look at each proposition carefully. That is how you spot a fallacy.

The Second Twilight
I believe I already had a theory for this but it went unnoticed. I'll just state it in blue.

The killer gained access to the room, by means of gaining Eva's trust while Hideyoshi was in the shower. After killing both Eva and Hideyohi, the killer placed the chain on the lock again and waited, after Genji and Kanon confirmed the door's chain was set they left. This confirmed the lock's authenticity at the time. Thereby unknowingly setting up the closed room. Kanon never checked the lock's strength after returning with Kumasawa, after cutting the chain there was now no chance of proving the chain was compromised. The killer left the room after placing both bodies in their positions. After setting the chain up by means of tape or magnet the killer painted the door and left.

Finally:
I said this before but there is a hidden move a method X, some type of move that is seen in plain view but yet still has an ulterior motive. You have to look at the propositions.

I call these moves Method X, Battler's tricks he was looking for.
For the umbrella it was Natsuhi's order to clean the room.
For the second twilight it was the confirmation by Genji and Kanon the chain was set.

This is the prime example of Method X given by Battler. You can trust the truth of the proposition, and still find an ulterior motive.
For the chapel it was the letter given to Maria.

If you can spot any inaccuracies then tell me. After all this is about sharing and commentary.
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Old 2009-12-02, 07:34   Link #3819
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If the killer left the door secured with tape, it would still be secured with tape after Kanon got in.
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Old 2009-12-02, 07:41   Link #3820
Dlanor .A. Nox
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That's why I don't think it's tape I think it's something else I just used tape as an example. Magnet, glue/adhesive take your pick all are easy methods and don't require alot of explaining. It doesn't have to hold the door just look natural hanging from the wall/door and not stand out. There wasn't any indication of the inspection of the chain's status after the discovery, Natsuhi locked the door afterwards.
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