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Old 2009-12-02, 10:37   Link #3821
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
That's why I don't think it's tape I think it's something else I just used tape as an example. Magnet, glue/adhesive take your pick all are easy methods and don't require alot of explaining. It doesn't have to hold the door just look natural hanging from the wall/door and not stand out. There wasn't any indication of the inspection of the chain's status after the discovery, Natsuhi locked the door afterwards.
I thought Battler did check the chain-lock. A magnet or adhesive had to be removed by someone and glue would leave trace.

It would be easy to do if one of the servants was an accomplice.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-02 at 11:14.
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Old 2009-12-02, 12:55   Link #3822
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If a servant is not an accomplice, then the killer was still in the room when everyone came in. That's hardly impossible, is it? They could have slipped back into the group while everyone was looking at Hideyoshi (this is also a theory in ep5). It seems awfully risky, though.
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Old 2009-12-02, 14:23   Link #3823
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Battler never checked the chain's status both in the real world and Purgatorio.

Renall: How? It took five minutes tops from Kanon's point of view, Genji had really brought Natsuhi along. Genji didn't lie now did he? Kanon definitely cut that chain, if it was all merely a lie then what was the point of showing the scene in the first place? I already said after the discovery:

The culprit proceeded to place their bodies in their current positions. After this he/she then went outside the door which was still open at the time, and placed the adhesive or glue whatever trick you want. Painted the door with the symbol, and left before any servants could return in time.

To place a chain on some glue or adhesive wouldn't take more than a few seconds. Magnets it would be longer without some kind of planning. The painting on the doorway is the main issue. The killer knew there wasn't alot of time, the circle and how it was done still strikes me as odd.
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Old 2009-12-02, 14:53   Link #3824
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Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Renall: How? It took five minutes tops from Kanon's point of view, Genji had really brought Natsuhi along. Genji didn't lie now did he? Kanon definitely cut that chain, if it was all merely a lie then what was the point of showing the scene in the first place? I already said after the discovery:
You misunderstand me. I'm just saying it's perfectly possible even without Genji and Kanon lying:

The killer entered the room, either because it wasn't locked or because Eva recognized the person and let them in. He or she killed Eva and Hideyoshi, locked the room with the chain, and hid somewhere in the room. Kanon and Genji found the room locked with no response, and cut the chain to get in. The magic circle and letter were left by an accomplice outside the room, and the killer slipped out of his or her hiding place during or after everyone had found the bodies.

There's no reason for the closed room to be an obstacle. We know that:

Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!


So, what's the problem? Perpetrator enters room, kills them, creates the closed room with a chain, and remains there until the room is no longer closed. The magic circle is a red herring; the killer doesn't have to be the one to have painted it. An accomplice, or a completely unrelated person could have done it.
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Old 2009-12-02, 15:11   Link #3825
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You misunderstand me. I'm just saying it's perfectly possible even without Genji and Kanon lying:

So, what's the problem? Perpetrator enters room, kills them, creates the closed room with a chain, and remains there until the room is no longer closed. The magic circle is a red herring; the killer doesn't have to be the one to have painted it. An accomplice, or a completely unrelated person could have done it.

To reduce the number of accomplices, then it could be that the culprit entered the room and killed both Hideyoshi and Eva, then hid in the room. After Genji and Kanon checked the room and left for the tool to cut open the chain. The culprit unlocked the room and painted the magic circles and left the letter, then he or she got back to the room and relocked it with the chain lock. He or she remained hidden in the room and left after everyone left.

-------------------------

@Dlanor .A. Nox: to use something on the chain lock would either leave traces or require someone to remove it. Battler did not check it this time but he had a good chance of doing so. So using this kind of trick was too risky, just like hiding in the room.

The safest way was that one of the servants were accomplices then he (either Kanon or Genji) could remove the trace after breaking through.
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Old 2009-12-02, 15:12   Link #3826
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The only problem is that, if we consider the theory that the culprit is still in the room, he has to have an accomplice, as someone will have to slam the boiler room door.
Unless:
1) the culprit could slip through the survivors (very unlikely)
2) the culprit used some kind of contraption that made the door slam (like a rope and a candle): doesn't work as he has to be there in order to kill Kanon, unless it was an act by the latter.

Considering the huge risk that the culprit could go through if everyone were to check the room thoroughly, I believe they found a way to lock it back from outside.
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Old 2009-12-02, 15:27   Link #3827
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The only problem is that, if we consider the theory that the culprit is still in the room, he has to have an accomplice, as someone will have to slam the boiler room door.
Unless:
1) the culprit could slip through the survivors (very unlikely)
2) the culprit used some kind of contraption that made the door slam (like a rope and a candle): doesn't work as he has to be there in order to kill Kanon, unless it was an act by the latter.
Or, Kanon never heard a door slam, and did so only to fake his death.

Alternately, the person who killed Eva and Hideyoshi and the person who attacked Kanon were different people.
Quote:
Considering the huge risk that the culprit could go through if everyone were to check the room thoroughly, I believe they found a way to lock it back from outside.
That would be a reasonable thing to assume, but the room wasn't searched thoroughly, and we know from ep5 that it's very possible to hide in a place we'd consider "obvious" (such as a closet) and not be discovered.
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Old 2009-12-02, 15:37   Link #3828
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Yes, Episode 5 confirms pretty well that the culprit could be left unchecked, as everyone probably reacted the same way.
My only problem is that... the culprit has to be 100% sure of this feat. As readers, we have the privilege to know and confirm this claim. However, the culprit does not: none of the characters (probably?) never went to such kind of atrocious situation. By this extent, it is very unlikely for anyone to figure if people will just try to keep the room intact, or if they want to find clues hidden in the room.

For all intents and purpose, any murderer who isn't sure of this gamble is either insane, or a utter moron.


...or, if there is an accomplice among the survivors who would lead everyone to get out of there. However, since the character doing so is different in each Episode, we can't exactly claim that.
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Old 2009-12-02, 15:42   Link #3829
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Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Interesting theory I like it but it's kind of off. If you can't trust any scene out of red you'd be stuck at the mercy of Beatrice. Beatrice stopped this by reducing the use of Red, to not trust any scene just because Battler didn't witness it or it wasn't stated in Red will not get you anywhere, you have to think about it long and hard but I believe the magical scenes are the main ones we should question.
Of course you can say that Genji, Kumasawa and the other servents lied about Kinzo being alive. This is a circular argument and will not get you anywhere you just have to be critical, to outright claim a lie to every situation isn't something productive. We know the servants lied. This is an advantage not a disadvantage. Like so.....
I'm not saying that we have to consider every situation not supported by red as a lie, but we can and should doubt scenes where the participants potentially have a reason to lie, and where there are clues that a lie may exist. A detective doesn't get very far by blindly trusting his witnesses.

Here's my reasoning why there was a conspiracy to mess with the crime scenes.

Spoiler for Long theorizing:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox
The Umbrella Problem:

Shannon, Kumasawa, and Kanon all claimed to be working at the bedrooms cleaning them, they had Natsuhi there to pass the buck off them when the dinner began. All three groups of people passed the buck when it was time to own up to the giver of the umbrella. The kids were together Battler was there to confirm this. The adults had been together as well, Natsuhi is innocent so we can trust her when it comes to the group as a whole. However she is naive as well. The servants are the only ones that can realistically give Maria the umbrella.

Natsuhi had unknowingly gave the perfect alibi to the servants.

Shannon or Kumasawa gave Maria the umbrella under the guise of cleaning the rooms.

I looked at the dinner as a whole and seen the pattern, The kids gave the perfect alibi, the adults have the perfect alibi and the servants have the perfect alibi. This went in a circle they said they didn't do it and thought someone else did it. This is a circular argument, if you can't see the problem with the argument as a whole you have to look at each proposition carefully. That is how you spot a fallacy.
Nanjo and Genji said they were with Kinzo, which is clearly false. Either of them could have done it easily.

But here's an idea I haven't seen here before: what if it's Maria who was lying? I don't remember who it was, but one of the characters initially thought that Maria had gotten the umbrella out of her handbag. Maybe that was actually true, and she never met Beatrice at all.

The whole bit with the rose is suspicious in the first place. Even though events vary in every game, Maria always finds the rose, always fights with her mother about it, and always stays out to look for it in the rain. Why is only this sequence of events constant? If we learned anything from Higurashi, it's that constant events happen because someone deliberately causes them, and the only one in a position to cause the events involving the rose is Maria herself. Incidentally, the period where she's out looking for the rose is also the only time on October 4th where she is totally unsupervised.
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Old 2009-12-02, 16:01   Link #3830
ijriims
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The red texts referring to Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa not being murderer might just be applicable to the 6-8 th twilights, as Battler was saying the "they shot each other simultaneously in a clockwise position" nonsense.

Of course, it could be the case this red texts applied to the whole EP1, or even all episodes if one wants to interpret in this way.

----------------------------------------

To say that Maria told lie about meeting Beatrice was possible but unlikely the case. I think it could only be the "Answer" if I had misread Maria's personality or she was acting out of her character.

It was mentioned that in EP1 that every year when the family arrived at Rokkenjima. the family members would stay in the rose garden for a while to view the rose. Maybe Beatrice told Maria to look for any frail-looking rose before the meeting.

It was still possible that Maria made up all the things. But it was rather...
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Old 2009-12-02, 16:02   Link #3831
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I'm here thinking about motives, to some be the mastermind and some, the accomplice.
Money is a obvious motive for almost everyone, but it have to be another thing...

I can imagine Kanon being one accomplice. Maybe the mastermind said to him that in the end he will be a normal human and would be happy. And said that he won't kill Jessica. Kanon will end up dead, trying to pretect her (maybe she knew to much, heard something or discover who is the culprit)...But If I'm not wrong
Spoiler for In EP5:


And, wich servants knew that Kinzo was dead? I think Gohda and maybe Kumasawa don't know, I mean, they don't are the most confiable servants to Kinzo, right?
Genji, Shannon, Kanon and Nanjo know. They are lying 'cause Krauss and Natsuhi said to do.
This make the couple very suspicious, more Krauss than Natsuhi in reality. She is all pround that Krauss will be the next head and all, so why
Spoiler for EP5:


Ah, a little comment by my friend: And if Genji died in the first twilight in two games 'cause he didn't want to coperate with the new head. Maybe he didn't want to kill Kinzo's kids and he got killed.

Just some speculation, I never have read the VN anyway.
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Old 2009-12-02, 16:03   Link #3832
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Originally Posted by Taynis View Post
I'm here thinking about motives, to some be the mastermind and some, the accomplice.
Money is a obvious motive for almost everyone, but it have to be another thing...

I can imagine Kanon being one accomplice. Maybe the mastermind said to him that in the end he will be a normal human and would be happy. And said that he won't kill Jessica. Kanon will end up dead, trying to pretect her (maybe she knew to much, heard something or discover who is the culprit)...But If I'm not wrong
Spoiler for In EP5:


And, wich servants knew that Kinzo was dead? I think Gohda and maybe Kumasawa don't know, I mean, they don't are the most confiable servants to Kinzo, right?
Genji, Shannon, Kanon and Nanjo know. They are lying 'cause Krauss and Natsuhi said to do.
This make the couple very suspicious, more Krauss than Natsuhi in reality. She is all pround that Krauss will be the next head and all, so why
Spoiler for EP5:


Ah, a little comment by my friend: And if Genji died in the first twilight in two games 'cause he didn't want to coperate with the new head. Maybe he didn't want to kill Kinzo's kids and he got killed.

Just some speculation, I never have read the VN anyway.
They were faking it originally in EP5.
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Old 2009-12-02, 16:12   Link #3833
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
But here's an idea I haven't seen here before: what if it's Maria who was lying? I don't remember who it was, but one of the characters initially thought that Maria had gotten the umbrella out of her handbag. Maybe that was actually true, and she never met Beatrice at all.

The whole bit with the rose is suspicious in the first place. Even though events vary in every game, Maria always finds the rose, always fights with her mother about it, and always stays out to look for it in the rain. Why is only this sequence of events constant? If we learned anything from Higurashi, it's that constant events happen because someone deliberately causes them, and the only one in a position to cause the events involving the rose is Maria herself. Incidentally, the period where she's out looking for the rose is also the only time on October 4th where she is totally unsupervised.
It is a good theory, but who gave her the letter? Maybe she have it with her before the rain starts...
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Old 2009-12-02, 16:23   Link #3834
Renall
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For all intents and purpose, any murderer who isn't sure of this gamble is either insane, or a utter moron.
That's what makes it more plausible the servants are lying (even if they didn't commit the murders). However, this is on the assumption they are not lying, in which case the killer might well have to stay in the room.

Why would they take that risk? Maybe they're certain there won't be time to thoroughly search the room due to some precaution they've taken, such as an accomplice among the survivors who will lead them all into the bathroom to find Hideyoshi.
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Old 2009-12-02, 16:38   Link #3835
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You misunderstand me. I'm just saying it's perfectly possible even without Genji and Kanon lying:

The killer entered the room, either because it wasn't locked or because Eva recognized the person and let them in. He or she killed Eva and Hideyoshi, locked the room with the chain, and hid somewhere in the room. Kanon and Genji found the room locked with no response, and cut the chain to get in. The magic circle and letter were left by an accomplice outside the room, and the killer slipped out of his or her hiding place during or after everyone had found the bodies.

There's no reason for the closed room to be an obstacle. We know that:

Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!


So, what's the problem? Perpetrator enters room, kills them, creates the closed room with a chain, and remains there until the room is no longer closed. The magic circle is a red herring; the killer doesn't have to be the one to have painted it. An accomplice, or a completely unrelated person could have done it.
There are two ways of entry into that room: The killer gained Eva's trust and went inside after Eva unlocked the door, or The killer anticipated Eva and Hideyoshi's move and hid in the room. Anyways we're past that point. Now all we're left with is exit. The door was locked on Natsuhi's orders, of course you can say one of the servants locked it and just faked locking the door. There is two windows of exit Before or After, to say during the time everyone discovered it is nigh impossible. No matter how cunning a person is to show up in the middle of something like nothing is not very smart. The killer and the painter had to be related as well. Your right there could be an accomplice it's possible and I think this happened with a culprit.

Before Scenario
The accomplice gave the all clear, and the killer left the room after faking the chain. The accomplice and the Killer proceeded to paint the door and the killer left leaving the accomplice to go back into the group.
This one can explain how it was done so fast.

After Scenario
The killer continued to hide in the room even after the discovery by the main group, the accomplice was the one who painted the doorway, the chain was never tampered with.
The chain was never touched in this scenario why? Because there would be no point. The killer had all the time in the world at this point. All the killer had to do was wait.

Ijriims: The killer planted the letter and there was the problem of the magic drawing at this point checking for clues although it would be the most absolute critical point in the game, Battler and the rest were emotional.....too emotional to reason. The killer may have banked in on this opportunity to do so. Glue can leave a trace but only if it is done sloppily like in shop class or something. The killer is methodical we know that. To leave residue wouldn't be the smartest thing to do.
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Old 2009-12-02, 16:49   Link #3836
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@LyricalAura: In episode 2, Maria meets Beatrice around noon, before it starts raining.
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Old 2009-12-02, 17:24   Link #3837
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No matter how cunning a person is to show up in the middle of something like nothing is not very smart. The killer and the painter had to be related as well. Your right there could be an accomplice it's possible and I think this happened with a culprit.
Two people have just been brutally murdered with metallic ritualistic stakes driven into their foreheads. I think you'll find that the average person would be transfixed by this spectacle (or disgusted by it). They would, if nothing else, probably not be searching the room. People were also presumably not together before this point; everyone assembles at the room, but they assuredly came from all over the house. Someone "appearing" would not draw attention if they were already off somewhere by themselves (as far as everyone knew). So long as nobody saw them.

How would you prevent them from seeing you? Maybe a spectacle. George does this. Is George helping someone? Or was the killer betting that somebody would react with extreme grief? Or were they just hoping the brutality of it would keep everybody's attention.
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Old 2009-12-02, 18:31   Link #3838
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I see that's a good explanation, this is plausible I like it.......still either situation before or after is as well. The conjecture that it's no longer a closed room is what I was after not the ultimate answer. Lying is just too easy in my opinion, and Ryuukishi stated some boundaries of trust must be established. So that is why I try to give the servants the benefit of the doubt.

I would prevent the from seeing me by alot of reasons sticking with one plan is not enough having an accomplice help is the main factor however things like the letter the painting and the murder itself they stack up and form a situation where everyone is either confused as hell due to a closed room or scared for their lives, in this case George and Battler get emotional as well. The killer had alot of things that went the right way for him/her.
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Old 2009-12-02, 20:48   Link #3839
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You know, I already had a theory that doesn't use an accomplice for the exit...

The killer was in the room when Genji and Kanon checked for the first time. After they left, the killer left the room and made teh chain appear as if it was set. Then he painted the door as to spook the others so that they forget to check the chain again.

In game, Kanon was definitely spooked and stayed as far from the door as he could while cutting the chain. But even if he moved as fast as possible, there's nothing that deny the possibility of the killer making the drawing in so little time.

Anyway, that room is pretty much broke open with all the possibilities we got. Is there still more rooms to think on? Maybe it can help us pinpoint the culprit as we break them open too.
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Old 2009-12-02, 21:41   Link #3840
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Natsuhi's room in Episode 2 is the one I'm having the most trouble with. Since Battler confirmed the door was locked and Rosa had all the keys, it seems like it must have been locked from the inside. But if that's true, what happened to the gun that was used to kill Shannon? I can only think of two ways to crack it without resorting to some improbable mutual murder.

1. Jessica survived the second twilight and was hiding in Natsuhi's closet with a gun. She shot Shannon after seeing her stab George and Gohda. This might be denied by Beato's red about there being no hidden (hiding?) places, but the wording is unclear so I'm not sure. It's also not clear whether Beato meant for the phrase "when Jessica's corpse was discovered" to confirm Jessica's death or not, but she acted like it wasn't confirmed afterward.

2. At the time the bodies were discovered, Rosa had control of all of the master keys. After she got control of them, they never once left her possession, except when Battler borrowed one to unlock the door to Natsuhi's room. But before that point, Rosa didn't have control of all of the keys, she just thought she did. Genji slipped one of the keys into Maria's handbag after he used it to lock Natsuhi's room and before the bodies were found. That doesn't explain why only Shannon was shot though.

Even though Battler was asleep part of the time and not watching Rosa, she probably isn't a suspect herself. Sneaking out of the parlor to go to Natsuhi's room would have required tearing down the furniture barricade and then rebuilding it when she got back, by herself, without waking Battler up. She'd also be risking him waking up while she was gone.

EDIT:
The door and windows were locked from the inside. I think that rules out any funny business with the keys. Whether they are alive or dead, whoever locked the door is inside that room when Battler unlocks it.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-12-02 at 22:02.
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