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Old 2009-12-11, 01:29   Link #4041
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
But Battler saw Krauss with his face smashed in half. I understand the theory that Shannon didn't die because Battler didn't see the corpse, but Krauss is different. I doubt there's any amazing makeup that can make it look that real, especially in the mid 80's.

Counting out Rudolf and Kyrie just because of an early death doesn't sound right to me. It's ignoring a lot of other things that might be there. I doubt myself Rudolf is part of the murders, but I have doubts on Kyrie here and there.

And Krauss faking incompetence is impossible. In EP 5 when his "wow you really did that" moment shows up it shows that he's probably as gullible as Maria.

Spoiler for EP 5:
Spoiler for EP5:
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Old 2009-12-11, 02:47   Link #4042
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
For the red text in question, I agree with you. Only Kanon within the gameboard is being referred to. However, it should be clear that some red truth(such as Knox's rules) can reach outside the gameboard as long it's still a mystery:

繰り返します。神の名において、そのような薬も機械も存在させません。未来永劫、存在することも許しません。
I repeat. In the name of God, such drugs and machinery are not allowed to exist. For all eternity, he will not allow their existence.


(That red text was in response to Beatrice's claim that Kinzo could have invented a teleporter or a drug that can turn you into fog so you can slip through a crack in a door)
Actually, probably another red that only affects the game board. Since the game board never leaves October 1986, such things can never be invented if they haven't already. It doesn't mean that such things can't exist, it means they can't exist on the gameboard, which is governed (supposedly) by the Knox rules.

Remember, the Knox rules have to affect only the story in question for any given novel by definition. Otherwise, you could go back in time and say nothing could ever have been invented. The world outside the story has no known limits.
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Old 2009-12-11, 04:02   Link #4043
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Let's look at it this way: Red text like this only refers to the inside of the cat box. In other words, what happens on Rokkenjima during the game time. In that sense, it really is impossible for another Kanon to exist, and if no other person takes the name Kanon in a particular game, it is...obviously...impossible to go back in time and make them do so. Think of the game board as a separate world and the contradictions disappear.

If something is impossible based on the rules of the game, the red text has no problem saying it's impossible. At least that's my theory.

I can only agree with this if you specify that this apply for the specific red texts I quoted, but not for "red texts" in general.

This is because we have a lot of red texts that refer to events that are outside the gameboard.

For example the red text claiming that Beatrice existed in 1967, or the red texts Bern used in Ep5 before the game started (Natsuhi being alone).

In other words the one you mention cannot be a property of "red text" but rather an implicit assumption of those red texts.

Similar implicit assumption is the one behind the claim that chapel's door can only be opened with the chapel's key. Since a manual lock definitely exists, I guess that "from outside" was implicit. But lacking this knowledge one would think it would be impossible to open even from inside.

If such implicit assumptions exist I can't help but wondering what other assumptions exist in other red texts, and it also makes me wonder what's the boundary of what it is legit to assume when stating red texts and how that can be abused by the likes of Lambda.

It makes everything a lot more fuzzy and that's why I wished that such assumptions didn't exist or that it was set as a rule that they need to be explained.
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Old 2009-12-11, 04:46   Link #4044
Dlanor A. Knox
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isn't Kanon the name of funitre?
if "Kanon" isnt funitre anymore than "Kanon" died and lives by his real name as a human.
so we cant really trust the red truth if it doesnt say the real name of Kanon (&Shanon.)
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Old 2009-12-11, 10:38   Link #4045
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Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
isn't Kanon the name of funitre?
if "Kanon" isnt funitre anymore than "Kanon" died and lives by his real name as a human.
so we cant really trust the red truth if it doesnt say the real name of Kanon (&Shanon.)
That's quite true. Regarding Episode 1, he did say "I am no longer furniture... I am human, BEATRICE!" So this could be a metaphor he left his furniture name and "died". Although, it would still explain Kanon is the culprit as he is always missing. I'm always wondering WHERE on earth is Kanon's Body hidden?

Also, anyone have a clue of the area and landscape of Rokkenjima? I know there's 2 houses, a church (which is where?) and is there anything else that do not know of?
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Old 2009-12-11, 11:50   Link #4046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Also, anyone have a clue of the area and landscape of Rokkenjima? I know there's 2 houses, a church (which is where?) and is there anything else that do not know of?
Actually it's still quite a debate how Rokkenjima really looks, as we get only a few clues throughout the VN about it's actual size and so on. The anime used a selfmade picture for the opening, but after looking at it a few times I decided that it has to be either wrong or some wordings throughout the story were highly misleading.


Assuming this was Rokkenjima some distances given in the story would either be wrong or some wordings were misleading. It was mentioned that Eva was found in Kuwadorian, 2km away from the site of the murders...yet this rendition of Rokkenjima would stretch the distance between the shore and the guesthouse to around a km at least.
Also considering this terrain, Eva would have at least needed a day, if not 2 days walk to get through those hills, as it can be assumed that you have to walk through the woods at least at the middle point (as I sketched).

The only other possibility would be, that what I believed to be the church would be Kuawdorian and 'other end of the island' was a very loose term and only meant 'last accessible point'...and there isn't a shore with a hidden harbour even near that point.
Still I would rather assume that you have to raise the size of those buildings at least by 2 if not by 3 to get an actual idea about how small Rokkenjima actually is.

So the only thing we know from the VN for sure is that:
- it takes some time to get to the rosegarden and the mansion and that it is a rather steep climb.
- from the preceding point we can assume that the mansion and the other buildings are rather high up, probably similar to what the anime suggests, and is quite safe from the sea
- the mansion and it's rose garden are the first thing you get across after climbing up and going through a small strip of vegetation
- encircling the mansion ground on all other sides is a rather thick forest which is probably kept at bay by some fence or wall
- you have to go through at least a part of the rose garden to reach the guesthouse, making it located to the side (I always assumed, like the anime, to the east) of the mansion.
- the church is rather secluded and not directly seen when standing on the mansion ground, suggesting that it is either some walk away or sorrounded by forest
- Kuwadorian is at least 2km away from the actual mansion, hidden in the forest, sorrounded by a fence but still near enough to some shore to assure access by boat through the hidden harbour
-the forest can be avoided by going along the coastline, but it's at least as steep as the climb to the mansion, making it rather dangerous if unprepared (or wearing a gown >_>)...
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Old 2009-12-11, 12:40   Link #4047
Jan-Poo
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I wouldn't be so surprised if the Rokkenjima that Deen made is not an accurate rendition of what Ryukishi describes so I'm not going to burn my brain cells on it.

Anyway I think it is pretty safe to assume that Eva used the underground passage to reach the Kuwadorian and that the 2km distance is a straight line distance and doesn't refer to any above the ground path (if it ever exist in the first place).

As for Ronove's question, we only know of The Mansion, the Guesthouse, The Chapel and Kuwadorian. There are a plethora of theories about two additional buildings so to reach the 6 in (six house island), but so far nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned.

Anyway I agree with chounokoe when he says that the rose garden is the first thing you reach from the winding path from the port. From there the Mansion is on the right and the guesthouse is on the left. In other words they are right in front of each other and the harbor should be exactly in the middle (or close to that).

The chapel should be behind the Mansion, so that it can't be seen from the garden and the guesthouse.
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Old 2009-12-11, 16:55   Link #4048
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Kanon's body can be anywhere. No one checks the roof, outside in the hedges, etc. in episode 2. They don't really even go looking for his body; it could be two doors down in the closet of an empty guestroom, for all we know.

In ep4, the mere fact Battler did not find a corpse doesn't mean one doesn't exist. He either missed it in his search, the body was in an inaccessible area (such as Kinzo's study), or it was somewhere he wouldn't realistically search thoroughly (such as out in the woods).

Honestly, if one were trying to commit a murder and not get caught, leaving the body to be discovered is the worst possible thing you could do. So the real question is not why Kanon's body is so rarely found, but why is every OTHER body so easily found?
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Old 2009-12-11, 16:56   Link #4049
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The guesthouse was only built a few years ago, and Krauss built it. If Kinzo meant anything by Rokkenjima, it shouldn't count the guesthouse.
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Old 2009-12-11, 17:14   Link #4050
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kanon's body can be anywhere. No one checks the roof, outside in the hedges, etc. in episode 2. They don't really even go looking for his body; it could be two doors down in the closet of an empty guestroom, for all we know.

In ep4, the mere fact Battler did not find a corpse doesn't mean one doesn't exist. He either missed it in his search, the body was in an inaccessible area (such as Kinzo's study), or it was somewhere he wouldn't realistically search thoroughly (such as out in the woods).

Honestly, if one were trying to commit a murder and not get caught, leaving the body to be discovered is the worst possible thing you could do. So the real question is not why Kanon's body is so rarely found, but why is every OTHER body so easily found?
Rarely? Well if you consider the other people reliable, but if you only consider the detective, Battler has never seen Kanon's body once.
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Old 2009-12-11, 23:59   Link #4051
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Rarely? Well if you consider the other people reliable, but if you only consider the detective, Battler has never seen Kanon's body once.
Isn't that already a bit weird? Ignore the oddity of Kanon for a moment, as we're all aware of that one. Isn't it kinda weird that Battler sees so many of the bodies so much of the time? I don't buy that every killer is trying to make the thing look like a ritual. So why do all these easily-discovered bodies crop up? Why not make some effort to hide them?

Are they being hidden, then exposed by the "ritualist" to look like a ritual? Are they left where they are because the killer doesn't have the time to hide them? Does the killer want the bodies found for a reason unrelated to the appearance of a ritual?

If we accept that there are multiple killers, the notion that they'd all follow a fake ritual is pretty implausible. There must be at least one killer who wants their crimes to go unnoticed. So how come Kanon (and a few bodies Battler never sees) is the odd man out in terms of not being found?
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Old 2009-12-12, 03:31   Link #4052
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I suppose Kanon's body in EP3 was not hidden, it was right inside the chapel. Just that Battler never bothered to go to there to take a look (as he was locked inside the guesthouse).
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Old 2009-12-12, 09:26   Link #4053
Dlanor A. Knox
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Well, we know 1 thing about the murderer, and that is that Battler did something (you know from ep. 4 the 6 years ago thingy) which causes these murders, so it has to be someone from back then, and Battler didn't knew Kanon so he is excluded....

Last edited by Dlanor A. Knox; 2009-12-12 at 09:27. Reason: miss spelling xD
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Old 2009-12-12, 11:13   Link #4054
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Isn't that already a bit weird? Ignore the oddity of Kanon for a moment, as we're all aware of that one. Isn't it kinda weird that Battler sees so many of the bodies so much of the time? I don't buy that every killer is trying to make the thing look like a ritual. So why do all these easily-discovered bodies crop up? Why not make some effort to hide them?

Are they being hidden, then exposed by the "ritualist" to look like a ritual? Are they left where they are because the killer doesn't have the time to hide them? Does the killer want the bodies found for a reason unrelated to the appearance of a ritual?

If we accept that there are multiple killers, the notion that they'd all follow a fake ritual is pretty implausible. There must be at least one killer who wants their crimes to go unnoticed. So how come Kanon (and a few bodies Battler never sees) is the odd man out in terms of not being found?
I think it's plainly obvious:

Kinzo(Or someone else, assuming him for now) created the Epitaph to jog Battler's memory on the off chance he forgot whatever he was told 6 years ago.

Somebody with no care for the Epitaph decides they need to kill people. How many is unknown, as well as the reason.

Staker X(I assume Human!Beato) has knowledge of Battler's sin, and perhaps conspiring with the murderer, agrees to help hide the bodies. Of course, instead they dresses them up to make it look like the ritual as described in the Epitaph.

EP3 was caused by their somehow being incapacitated, so a newbie(Perhaps Eva?) was enlisted to help, with the promise of having her husband and son spared.

"Hopeful" scenario:

Battler thinks about the Epitaph, realizes it's talking about his sin, and fixes everything as he is now the head of the Ushiromiyas.

"Other" scenario:

What's happened so far.
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Old 2009-12-12, 11:13   Link #4055
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Well, we know 1 thing about the murderer, and that is that Battler did something (you know from ep. 4 the 6 years ago thingy) which causes these murders, so it has to be someone from back then, and Battler didn't knew Kanon so he is excluded....
There is the theory that Kanon knew Battler before 1986
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Old 2009-12-12, 14:48   Link #4056
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I think it's plainly obvious:

Kinzo(Or someone else, assuming him for now) created the Epitaph to jog Battler's memory on the off chance he forgot whatever he was told 6 years ago.
I've yet to see any evidence that Kinzo (even the fake Kinzo) cares all that much about Battler in particular, or that he had any knowledge whatsoever of Battler's sin. If the epitaph were specifically directed to Battler, only Battler would be able to solve it. Yet Eva and possibly Rosa and perhaps others have been able to solve it, and their "big hint" was the same big hint Battler tracked down in ep5 (and there's no clear indication that Battler remembered his sin in ep5).
Quote:
Somebody with no care for the Epitaph decides they need to kill people. How many is unknown, as well as the reason.
This of course I agree on.
Quote:
Staker X(I assume Human!Beato) has knowledge of Battler's sin, and perhaps conspiring with the murderer, agrees to help hide the bodies. Of course, instead they dresses them up to make it look like the ritual as described in the Epitaph.
The problem I have is, how does she find these bodies so quickly if she's not the killer? How come no one ever spots her staking? Why doesn't she miss bodies (note that, at least for Rosa/Maria in ep3, the staker DOES miss bodies, but it's fairly uncommon)? The bodies get staked so quickly that if the staker is not the killer (and I think the staker at the very least isn't the only killer, if he/she is a killer at all), we're asked to either believe that the deaths happened earlier than we figured, or that the staker is following the killer around aware of who they are and who they're targeting, then "cleaning up" after they strike without ever being themselves spotted and killed.

And then, even if we accept this incredible talent, we're asked to believe he/she doesn't manage to locate Kanon's body most of the time? If there's a ritualist exposing hidden bodies and staking them, they shouldn't miss Kanon's body even if it's hidden any more than they miss the other bodies (which they usually don't). Yet they pretty much always do, bar ep3 (if you believe the adults about Kanon being in the chapel, as they're the only source of this information at all).

There's something not right here.
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Old 2009-12-12, 15:59   Link #4057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The problem I have is, how does she find these bodies so quickly if she's not the killer? How come no one ever spots her staking? Why doesn't she miss bodies (note that, at least for Rosa/Maria in ep3, the staker DOES miss bodies, but it's fairly uncommon)? The bodies get staked so quickly that if the staker is not the killer (and I think the staker at the very least isn't the only killer, if he/she is a killer at all), we're asked to either believe that the deaths happened earlier than we figured, or that the staker is following the killer around aware of who they are and who they're targeting, then "cleaning up" after they strike without ever being themselves spotted and killed.
While I'm still not quite sure myself if I believe in individual StakerX and MurderX there is something I have grown to think over the last couple of weeks, while preparing for Episode 6. One of those things appears here...it's about why the second twilight in Episode 3 does not match the preceding one's in regards of the stakes missing.
I think that this wasn't meant to be a '2nd twilight' but was a complete mess up.
This Eva-Beatrice is the same person Maria meets in Episode 1 and 2, she was prepared to give the envelope to Maria and probably scare the crap out of Rosa if it had to be done, but something went wrong. Rosa believed that person to be Ushiromiya Eva and things got complicated regarding Rosa possibly telling people that something is not right on the island...or maybe that person believed Rosa to have witnessed something crucial when she met with Ushiromiya Eva in the rose garden after they found the gold's hiding place.
Yet of course people knew that Rosa and Maria went out and it was sure that they would be missed if they suddenly vanished, so just carrying them away wouldn't help and letting only Maria alive, even though she adores Beatrice, she could have told things she was not meant to tell.
So that person had no other choice than to kill them both and leave it for the following people to decide if what happened was a 2nd twilight...also remember that the only clue we have towards the killer/Eva Beatrice aiming towards 'twilights' is Beatrice always insisting on it that she creates them.

So I am forced to believe that the killer is also the one doing the stakings, but he is of course bound to normal laws of time, space and emotions...and maybe he gets nervous in certain moments and does not do his work as good as it could have done.
Even though we are lead to believe that Rosa and Maria were already dead for a while when they were discovered, it could as well be that the killer was about to prepare the corpses to look like previous twilight victims, yet he/she heard people coming and was forced to run.
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Old 2009-12-12, 16:28   Link #4058
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Hmmm anyone noticed that Jessica's golden Eagle is the only one to match the one suit-Beato has tattood on her leg?

If you compare it to Battler's Eagle for example...



Jess' Eagle has a different tail.



Which matches this one :



The siestas and the goats have that altered Eagle too.

But the rest of the characters have the same Eagle Battler has. (Unless I'm mistaken)
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Old 2009-12-12, 16:30   Link #4059
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I've yet to see any evidence that Kinzo (even the fake Kinzo) cares all that much about Battler in particular, or that he had any knowledge whatsoever of Battler's sin. If the epitaph were specifically directed to Battler, only Battler would be able to solve it. Yet Eva and possibly Rosa and perhaps others have been able to solve it, and their "big hint" was the same big hint Battler tracked down in ep5 (and there's no clear indication that Battler remembered his sin in ep5).
Kinzo might care about Battler through the fact his circumstances have made him something of an outsider, just like Kinzo was all those years ago.

Of course, others *can* solve the Epitaph, but they can't "Understand" it. As in, why it was created to begin with.

With all the parallels between them made ever more blatantly obvious(Like EP6's portrait), it's one of the reasons I just cannot accept the fact Beato can't be real without destroying an already-existing couple. You WANT Battler to go "BEHATOREEEEEECHE" for the rest of his life? Sorry, but that just doesn't make for a good story, or at least a good candidate for Ryu07's mushy endings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
Hmmm anyone noticed that Jessica's golden Eagle is the only one to match the one suit-Beato has tattood on her leg?

If you compare it to Battler's Eagle for example...



Jess' Eagle has a different tail.



Which matches this one :



The siestas and the goats have that altered Eagle too.

But the rest of the characters have the same Eagle Battler has. (Unless I'm mistaken)
The other half could just be... yknow, folded behind his jacket.
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Old 2009-12-12, 16:34   Link #4060
ijriims
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Piece Battler (the real world Battler), except in EP4, did not ever meet Beatrice once, so he probably could not develop any deep relationship in just two days' time, so there was almost no chance that he could go as a couple with her in the end.

For Meta-Battler and meta Beatrice, the case may be different though.
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