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Old 2009-12-12, 17:23   Link #4081
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Workworkwork, you have chosen the side where the true identity of Beatrice was yet shown, but having a chance for real BattlerXBeatrice to exist............

You are choosing a happy ending story, not a good story.

Hope that you will not be heartbroken by Ryukishi...
Who said it's going to be a happy ending 8V

Honestly just outright saying "there is no real Beatrice" is weird. How can you explain Beato's mood towards Battler not remembering his sin? Even Battler said that there had to be some type of weird wording (referring to when she said the sin wasn't between Battler and Beatrice) and Beatrice looked genuinely hurt that he can't remember.
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:28   Link #4082
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow.

from what I understand we can read some parts about the toughts of Erika
Knox 1 does exclude Erika as the culprit, but not because we've seen her thoughts. Ryukishi's version of that commandment is just: "It is forbidden for the culprit to be a character not introduced at the beginning of the story."
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:31   Link #4083
Dlanor A. Knox
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Hauh~ your right ^^V
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:37   Link #4084
Joneleth
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How about this for an ending :

Battler saves everyone finds the gold, becomes the head... but loses Beato.
He becomes depressive like Kinzo to revive Beato. Then the game ands with an old Battler performing the epitaph's ritual himself at a family reunion before committing suicide and finally meeting Beato again in the Golden Land. :P
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:41   Link #4085
Kitsu
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Battler saves everyone finds the gold, becomes the head
This was the thing I didn't really like in Ep 5. I kinda can't see Battler in that position. Something just doesn't feel right.
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:42   Link #4086
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Well it's been stated since Ep 1 that Battler looks a lot like Kinzo used to be in his youth, so I don't think it's far-fetched for him to become the next head at all.
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:54   Link #4087
Dlanor A. Knox
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I think Battler could be a good head. (sounds weird xP)
But i got the feeling that Battler himself will die in the end...
or that after he know what his sin is, he will go to an/the kakera(s) where he didnt commit his "sin" and prevent commiting it... or something like that...
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:56   Link #4088
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I think in the final episode he will have to make the choice from Kinzo's Ep 4 test.
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:58   Link #4089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Knox 1 does exclude Erika as the culprit, but not because we've seen her thoughts. Ryukishi's version of that commandment is just: "It is forbidden for the culprit to be a character not introduced at the beginning of the story."
Yet we still have to get some real boundaries for that expression. What is the 'beginning' to Umineko?
The beginning of every Game? Only the very first chapter of Episode 1? Episode 1 as a whole? Technically of course it would be limited to the introduction, the very first set of chapters...so probably up until the evening of the first day.
While it is of course possible, I think that wording still has some potential to be used against the witches.

But of course there are only two people we can quite surely exclude from being a possible culprit.
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Old 2009-12-12, 17:58   Link #4090
Dlanor A. Knox
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hmmm..... could be....
hauh~ *gets confused*
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Old 2009-12-12, 18:03   Link #4091
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For the ep3 second twilight, I think this is one that actually could be blamed on Eva... and I think it was an accident. The staker didn't get involved because Eva doesn't know the staker, and the bodies were discovered by someone else before the staker had a chance to do anything with them.

It makes sense, really. Eva and Rosa were talking, they get into an argument, maybe Rosa threatens Eva or something. They struggle, and Eva - being easily the stronger and better-trained of the two - overpowers Rosa and accidentally impales her on a fencepost. Horrified, she panics when Maria starts crying out and strangles her, then runs away. She didn't mean to, she just flipped out, and she doesn't want to get blamed for the first set of killings. She's clearly unstable later on, why couldn't it be the result of guilt?

In this circumstance, someone has died without the killer expecting it. He or she was planning to kill someone else, but didn't realize Rosa and Maria were missing until it was brought up and someone found them. Well, now he/she can't touch the bodies, as everyone is watching them.
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Old 2009-12-12, 18:05   Link #4092
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In Ep 3 I think Eva killed Battler because she thought he was the culprit.
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Old 2009-12-12, 18:46   Link #4093
Workworkwork
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Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
In Ep 3 I think Eva killed Battler because she thought he was the culprit.
OR, fight-or-flight.

Think about it. You're alone with the only other person you know is alive, and he, being a physically fit young man, would have a good chance of killing you. He proceeds to accuse you as the culprit.

However, you have the advantage of a gun in your hands. Wouldn't you shoot to possibly get away from the killer instead of just getting into a speech about how you aren't the culprit? Of course you'd choose the former.

That feeling, along with a possible feeling of betrayal of having her favorite nephew view her in such a negative light, probably caused her to give up.
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Old 2009-12-12, 18:49   Link #4094
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
OR, fight-or-flight.

Think about it. You're alone with the only other person you know is alive, and he, being a physically fit young man, would have a good chance of killing you. He proceeds to accuse you as the culprit.

However, you have the advantage of a gun in your hands. Wouldn't you shoot to possibly get away from the killer instead of just getting into a speech about how you aren't the culprit? Of course you'd choose the former.

That feeling, along with a possible feeling of betrayal of having her favorite nephew view her in such a negative light, probably caused her to give up.
Nah, it's pretty clear after episode 5 that Eva would stomp Battler's ass in a fight.
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Old 2009-12-12, 18:52   Link #4095
Workworkwork
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Nah, it's pretty clear after episode 5 that Eva would stomp Battler's ass in a fight.
Well, that was pretty obvious since EP4.

Like I said though, she had no idea what Battler's power level was.
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Old 2009-12-12, 19:04   Link #4096
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Well, that was pretty obvious since EP4.

Like I said though, she had no idea what Battler's power level was.
And judging from Battler's perspective, at that point she's just goddamn nuts, whether from paranoia that Battler might be the culprit, or just grief and utter rage that Battler's accusing her as she mourns George's death.
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Old 2009-12-12, 19:18   Link #4097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
For the ep3 second twilight, I think this is one that actually could be blamed on Eva... and I think it was an accident. The staker didn't get involved because Eva doesn't know the staker, and the bodies were discovered by someone else before the staker had a chance to do anything with them.

It makes sense, really. Eva and Rosa were talking, they get into an argument, maybe Rosa threatens Eva or something. They struggle, and Eva - being easily the stronger and better-trained of the two - overpowers Rosa and accidentally impales her on a fencepost. Horrified, she panics when Maria starts crying out and strangles her, then runs away. She didn't mean to, she just flipped out, and she doesn't want to get blamed for the first set of killings. She's clearly unstable later on, why couldn't it be the result of guilt?

In this circumstance, someone has died without the killer expecting it. He or she was planning to kill someone else, but didn't realize Rosa and Maria were missing until it was brought up and someone found them. Well, now he/she can't touch the bodies, as everyone is watching them.
Yet that would leave the question how she convinced Maria for at least a moment that she was Beatrice. If it was just turning up at the sick rose, she would have mistaken Rosa in Episode 2 for Beatrice, too.
That's why I don't believe it is Eva who appeared before Rosa and Maria at that point, but the person who appeared before Maria every arc before that to give her the letters. Well, that person could be Eva, but that would leave the question why she turned up dead so early in 3 out of 4 instances.
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Old 2009-12-12, 20:23   Link #4098
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Yet that would leave the question how she convinced Maria for at least a moment that she was Beatrice.
How do we know that scene's real?
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Old 2009-12-13, 00:05   Link #4099
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Yet that would leave the question how she convinced Maria for at least a moment that she was Beatrice. If it was just turning up at the sick rose, she would have mistaken Rosa in Episode 2 for Beatrice, too.
That's why I don't believe it is Eva who appeared before Rosa and Maria at that point, but the person who appeared before Maria every arc before that to give her the letters. Well, that person could be Eva, but that would leave the question why she turned up dead so early in 3 out of 4 instances.
She didn't. She had no reason to. Rosa and Eva knew where each other were, they just had to show up in the garden and talk. Maria wouldn't find anything odd about her aunt being around.

You could view the whole "new witch" thing as a metaphor. For example: Whoever did the First Twilight wasn't planning on killing anyone else because it was too risky. Then two more bodies popped up while he/she had an alibi. Now he/she could go back to their work killing and/or staking. Eva's guilt "created" a new witch.
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Old 2009-12-13, 00:09   Link #4100
Marion
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Well don't be too sure. For EP 3 2nd twilight Rudolf is technically a suspect too. He went out alone to check on them after all. And nothing says that he couldn't be a possible suspect, since Rosa and Maria are only declared dead after he reports them in, according to the narration given by Ronove (or was it Virgilia. I'm sure it was Ronove though).
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