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Old 2009-12-15, 17:37   Link #4201
ErenselTheJester
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To tell you the truth, All fantasy scenes can be scene as a blank page for that one scene, except for those that are relevant to the story. So, whether the goats exist or not is really an unnecessary question.
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Old 2009-12-16, 01:52   Link #4202
ijriims
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Tips from EP5:
Spoiler for EP5:

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-16 at 02:05.
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Old 2009-12-16, 02:20   Link #4203
ijriims
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Had anyone read EP5 yet? I am just reading it (Chinese translated version)

Is it allowed to discuss it in this thread?
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Old 2009-12-16, 06:25   Link #4204
Dlanor A. Knox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Tips from EP5:
Spoiler for EP5:

Spoiler for Guess:
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Old 2009-12-16, 06:26   Link #4205
Dlanor A. Knox
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I thinks so if you do the :
Spoiler for ***:


thingy
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Old 2009-12-16, 06:28   Link #4206
ErenselTheJester
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I would suggest not discussing since its a spoiler. You might have to wait until there's a EP5 discussion topic somewhere.
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Old 2009-12-16, 06:29   Link #4207
Dlanor A. Knox
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Isnt this thread called spoilers & speculations xD
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Old 2009-12-16, 06:30   Link #4208
ErenselTheJester
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Exactly. Ironic situations are what I do best.
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Old 2009-12-16, 06:44   Link #4209
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Well, we have been talking about Ep 5 stuff in here without spoiler tags lots of times with no problems, so I guess you can say whatever you want.
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Old 2009-12-16, 10:59   Link #4210
momobunny
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There's a thread made specifically for EP5. This thread was literally made for spoilers and speculations, it was originally the EP5 thread but since it was full of so much baseless speculation and pseudo spam it was turned into the general spoilers thread. We were told that this thread was okay for discussing EP6... so this is the absolute last thread where one could say "Don't discuss that here, it's a spoiler". ^^;
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Old 2009-12-16, 11:11   Link #4211
yuugi99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Something comes to my mind:

In EP1 and EP3, Jessica was the one who imposed Beatrice to deliver the letters and umbrella to Maria, she was told by her friend Shannon that the letter was to tell the whole family to solve the epitaph, she did want the family to unite so she did it. She heard from Shannon that it was Golden witch Beatrice who told Shannon to urge Jessica to do so, of course Jessica thought Shannon was telling a joke but she accepted it. She had not think about where the seal came from (or she thought it was a trick from Kinzo), nor did she anticipate the killing.

Then, in both EP1 and EP3, Shannon was supposedly killed. So the link was cut and Jessica had no one to ask who was Beatrice but Maria.

In EP2, the one who imposed as suit-Beatrice was Shannon. Because Beatrice wanted Shannon to put a "candy-restoration" trick in front of Rosa as she had taught Shannon similar trick before, however, Beatrice knew that Jessica could not learn at such a short period of time and probably she could not deceive Rosa. So she picked Shannon in EP4.

In EP4, Beatrice herself delivered the umbrella because she had to persuade Maria to say it was Kinzo who delivered the letter in person. Why? Because she had colluded with Krauss in that episode and the siblings knowing that Maria receiving the umbrella from Kinzo would put the siblings in disarrary, thus enabling Krauss to have more time to prepare for the coming murders.


There was a strong hint from the manga that in EP1 Jessica said to Maria that "don't get cold, it was important for girls", which Beatrice also said when she delivered the umbrella and letter to Maria. To some people, it was a hint that Jessica was the real Beatrice, but to me it was a hint that she delivered the letter to Maria in EP1 and 3.

Also, one can see that Beatrice wore the same gown in EP1 and EP3, I thought it meant the one who imposed as Beatrice in EP1, 3 were the same person, but different from EP2. In EP4, there was no such a scene at all.
I thought there was no unknown human X so real beatrice did not exist. it was hinted that real beatrice was actually one of the 17 humans in disguise. Anyway my guess is Jessica cause i just could not think of anyone else.
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Old 2009-12-16, 11:45   Link #4212
ijriims
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Originally Posted by yuugi99 View Post
I thought there was no unknown human X so real beatrice did not exist. it was hinted that real beatrice was actually one of the 17 humans in disguise. Anyway my guess is Jessica cause i just could not think of anyone else.
I did not say anywhere from that passage of mine that Real Beatrice was not one of the 17 people.

You can only inferred that I think the real Beatrice was not Jessica or Shannon.

If you have read my previous post, you must know who was the real Beatrice in my mind.
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Old 2009-12-17, 07:17   Link #4213
frostieyes
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This is not my theory, but a theory by DeepWhite at a Korean fandom. (Deepwhite also got most of his ideas from (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9080754). Ryukisi said the Japanese should interpret the epitaph more easily. And he was right, looking at the interpretations. So this is a translation of a translation, mostly.)

I thought it was interesting enough to translate.
The original is at http://cafe.naver.com/higurashi/140045 but it is written in Korean. I left out and added some parts to help understand better. My own comments are in parentheses.

※This is a complete interpretation of the epitaph and therefore contains serious spoilers if true. Ah, but this is the spoilers and speculations thread, so I guess it shouldn't matter.

Let's start with the epitaph first, to remind ourselves.

My beloved hometown, the bountiful river running through it. You who seek the Golden Land, follow it's path downstream and seek the key. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land.

He who lays his hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below.
At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.
At the second twilight, the surviving shall tear apart the two who are close.
At the third twilight, the surviving shall praise my honorable name on high.
At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill.
At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill.
At the sixth twilight, gouge the belly and kill.
At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill.
At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill.
At the ninth twilight, the Witch shall live again and none shall be left to live.
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the Land of Gold.
The Witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures.


One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.


Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice.

(I got the translation from Umineko wiki)

The parts in the epitaph I will put in red.

Spoiler for very long:


So, what do you guys think?
I think this explains a lot of things. Perhaps even the motive.
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Last edited by frostieyes; 2009-12-17 at 07:33.
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Old 2009-12-17, 07:47   Link #4214
Raneh
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Reasoning sounds good and the end result convincing but I'm not good with kanji so I can't really confirm anything.

However, there's one thing that has been bothering me about Ep5's opening. As we all know openings, songs and lyrics all may have hidden clues.
Spoiler for pic:

Isn't that the chapel? IIRC the chapel had no role in Ep5 and still it and some kind of a cross were included in the opening.
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Old 2009-12-17, 08:00   Link #4215
ijriims
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Except the last part.

The epitaph should be in Kinzo's study for a very long time (a clue for him to go to Kwadorian), I don't think he set up a bomb from the beginning. Even though he set up the epitaph not too long ago, it was at least 2 years, and he planned to kill every son and daughter and grandchild of his by his hand? Not even Kinzo would do so in my opinion.

And there is no clue on to how to disable the bomb. It could not be the case that once the epitaph is solved then the bomb is disabled automatically, because EP3 have the same catastrophic event as well even though Eva has solved the epitaph.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-17 at 10:14.
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Old 2009-12-17, 08:13   Link #4216
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostieyes View Post
Left, O, Right, Down, Down, Up, Up, with the driver.
I don't remember Battler or Erika ever having one of the stakes in episode 5.
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Old 2009-12-17, 08:22   Link #4217
frostieyes
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The chapel is, according to this theory, essential in solving the epitaph, so I see no reason why it should not be in the EP5 opening. That cross should be a 'rood'...but I'm not Catholic, so I'm not sure.


I thought owo's comment was quite convincing. The island could have been set up as a military base, with bombs stationed beforehand. Kinzo could have used these pre-stationed bombs.

Everyone gathering and going to Kuwadorian should be, at least, a way to avoid death. There might be an unexpected factor as well - perhaps a person (probably a servant) familiar with the knowledge might have manipulated the bombs so that they are not automatically disabled when the epitaph is 'solved'. Perhaps this person is the culprit. But you're right, there is no clue on disabling the bomb. I guess something more is necessary.

As for Kinzo, I think we have seen enough of his madness. I do not think his scenes are pure fantasy, but scenes that reflect what happened and what he was like when he was alive. He was pretty much insane at the end of his days. He may have truly thought his descendants worthless if they could not solve the epitaph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I don't remember Battler or Erika ever having one of the stakes in episode 5.
I don't remember it either. But that part may have been easily omitted, perhaps because that would be too much of a clue.
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Old 2009-12-17, 08:59   Link #4218
Raneh
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About the stakes it actually makes sense.

Ep1 we didn't see any proof that anyone would've have found the gold - no stakes were missing.
Ep2 there were 3 gold bars in the chapel so someone took the gold - Kanon's stake was missing along with his corpse
Ep3 we saw 2 people enter the chamber - 2 stakes were missing
Ep4 we saw a lot of people down in the dungeons - a lot of stakes missing
I can't remember if people were staked when Battler checked the corpses in Ep4, were they?

Also because Ange has one of the stakes with her then it could help her solve the epitaph in 1998 and get to the chamber if the place is still accessible.
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Old 2009-12-17, 10:01   Link #4219
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I don't remember Battler or Erika ever having one of the stakes in episode 5.
If this is the correct path then those are indications to operate the mechanism that Ep5 mentions.

If that's so then there must be some sort cross-shaped pad with 5 buttons that must be pressed in the order: Left, Center, Right, Down, Up

The "O" is often used to indicate the origin in cartesian coordinate systems. In other words "O" is the point that is neither left right down or up, in other words the center.
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Old 2009-12-17, 10:09   Link #4220
ameskitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frostieyes View Post
...theory

So, what do you guys think?
I think this explains a lot of things. Perhaps even the motive.
Hmm, interesting theory, but I'm kind of skeptic about the epitaph saying anything at all about who Beatrice is or what her motive is :/. I don't think that's something Kinzo could've reasonably predicted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frostieyes View Post
Spoiler for ep 5 stuff:
I'm pretty sure that line was ゼロになる奇跡へと, which means "to a miracle that will become zero/nothing". I've always found that line interesting so that's the only reason I noticed - not trying to nitpick or anything .
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