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Old 2009-12-17, 12:02   Link #4221
yuugi99
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So in the end, it was the bomb that killed the remaining family? Sounds plausible though as the mansion did not exist in 1998.
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Old 2009-12-17, 12:08   Link #4222
Ronove
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Originally Posted by yuugi99 View Post
So in the end, it was the bomb that killed the remaining family? Sounds plausible though as the mansion did not exist in 1998.
Interesting, although I have to say the remaining family always did get "Torn and eaten by demons" which can also mean their bodies were blasted apart.

W-wait. When the police and investigators came to the island, was their any mention of them finding the corpses and which ones?

Anywho, a bomb may be hard to create during a typhoon, and you'll probably hear it even across the lake. Although, the unsub may have timed it with thunder perhaps?

Not to mention, "Beatrice" can be a "bomb"? So Beatrice's game-form is a bomb?
I won't be surprised if the military called it the Beato-Bomb.
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Old 2009-12-17, 12:59   Link #4223
CainSonozaki
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Originally Posted by Raneh View Post
About the stakes it actually makes sense.

Ep1 we didn't see any proof that anyone would've have found the gold - no stakes were missing.
Ep2 there were 3 gold bars in the chapel so someone took the gold - Kanon's stake was missing along with his corpse
Ep3 we saw 2 people enter the chamber - 2 stakes were missing
Ep4 we saw a lot of people down in the dungeons - a lot of stakes missing
I can't remember if people were staked when Battler checked the corpses in Ep4, were they?

Also because Ange has one of the stakes with her then it could help her solve the epitaph in 1998 and get to the chamber if the place is still accessible.
just Kyrie, Nanjo, Krauss, and Shannon. So 3 stakes missing
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Old 2009-12-17, 13:06   Link #4224
Leinne
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Interesting, although I have to say the remaining family always did get "Torn and eaten by demons" which can also mean their bodies were blasted apart.

W-wait. When the police and investigators came to the island, was their any mention of them finding the corpses and which ones?

Anywho, a bomb may be hard to create during a typhoon, and you'll probably hear it even across the lake. Although, the unsub may have timed it with thunder perhaps?

Not to mention, "Beatrice" can be a "bomb"? So Beatrice's game-form is a bomb?
I won't be surprised if the military called it the Beato-Bomb.
Corpses were identified, children's weren't found, just blood and Maria's jaw


I gotta admit I like this theory a lot
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Old 2009-12-17, 17:18   Link #4225
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Maybe, the police was under pressure of the governament or something like that...
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Old 2009-12-17, 17:23   Link #4226
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What kind of bomb leaves dead people behind but makes living people just disappear? :P

Correction, it made EP2 Kinzo vanish. :P
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Old 2009-12-17, 18:43   Link #4227
Renall
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Let's discuss this "Midnight Incident" for a moment, because I see a lot of speculation on what it is. I don't honestly believe we can yet answer the question of what it is, but by and large we don't need to know what it is to know many things about it. But before we question what it is, let's look at some facts.

WHEN: This is the easiest. We know it happens around midnight of the second day, hence my name for it.

WHO: I don't think we yet know who, if anyone, is responsible for the incident. If it's a human being, it's obviously one of the culprits (unless it's an accident, but that's silly). If it's not a human being, it must be something like a natural disaster, sudden detonation of explosives, or something like that. For now let's assume someone is responsible for it happening.
Spoiler for Consequences:

WHAT: Obviously, this is what everyone wants to know. There are a battery of theories: Lightning strikes, fire (natural or arson), boiler explosion, bomb explosion (either planted by a culprit or a munition hidden on the island as a military matter back in WW2), earthquake/volcanic activity, landslide, etc. There are only a few things I can really guess about the properties of the incident, whatever it may be:
Spoiler for Consequences:

WHERE: I mentioned this previously but let's go over it again. Whatever happens only affects Rokkenjima (unless it's a natural consequence of the storm), and only the part of Rokkenjima near the main mansion. Kuwadorian appears to be completely spared, although we may not know why. But mere geographic separation alone could explain it; at almost 2km away across very rough terrain, Kuwadorian's survival is not really hard to understand. The odds are very good that the incident was not something so incredibly remarkable that it was noticed even from far away (so no nuclear bombs or anything). Of course something like a smaller explosion could easily be concealed during a typhoon, so whatever happened may have been heard as far away as Nijima. It just wasn't identified as anything important, if it was.

WHY: The obvious question. Answering it is dependent on whether it's caused or uncaused. If it's uncaused, a disaster, an act of God, then there need not be any why at all; it's merely a coincidence that Beatrice is exploiting to make Battler think it's deliberate agency. More interesting is if the incident does have a human cause, as we must then ask what the human culprit's motives were.
Spoiler for Why Do This?:
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Old 2009-12-17, 19:24   Link #4228
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Doesn't the last letters from Ep 1&2 indicates that the culprit knows something is gonna happen if the epitaph is not resolved at midnight?
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Old 2009-12-17, 23:40   Link #4229
imaginari
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Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
Doesn't the last letters from Ep 1&2 indicates that the culprit knows something is gonna happen if the epitaph is not resolved at midnight?
Hmm. They both mention running out of time (but not midnight), and you are probably right, but it is vague enough that it could potentially mean a lot of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
Answering it is dependent on whether it's caused or uncaused. If it's uncaused, a disaster, an act of God, then there need not be any why at all; it's merely a coincidence that Beatrice is exploiting to make Battler think it's deliberate agency. More interesting is if the incident does have a human cause, as we must then ask what the human culprit's motives were.
I'm thinking that it's caused. As I've said, I'm not crazy about coincidences and would prefer to have as few separate things as possible trying to kill the Ushiromiyas during the two days of the gameworld.
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Old 2009-12-18, 01:25   Link #4230
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If someone is responsible for causing the event to happen, they have to set it up fairly early in the game. You could imagine that it was set up fairly early, perhaps before the 4th, but there's no evidence of that specifically. However, I think the latest it probably could be set up is before dinner on the 4th. After this point, there are too many variables to make things easy on the culprit. Also, too many people are dying or potentially dying at midnight on ep4, yet the incident still happens to Battler a full day later; so whoever did it doesn't wait until late at night.

Consequentially I don't think killing the culprit who sets up the incident, if there is one, has any effect on the incident happening. Thus, I believe the incident still occurred in ep3; Eva escaped it and Jessica did not.
This reminds me strongly of something Bernkastel wrote in her letter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernkastel
Lambdadelta boasted that I will 'absolutely' not be able to win on this game board.
At that time, I paradoxically identified Rule X.
She really is a stupid girl.
In other words, it's like the story that always starts from June 20th.
Probably, this is the core of the Witch Beatrice.
In Higurashi, June 20th was exactly two days before the Hinamizawa Disaster that always killed everyone in that game. On that day, all of the major triggers for the disaster were already in place, so a player who could only start moving pieces at that point would be in a 100% hopeless position.

If we take Bern's analogy at face value, maybe it means that the Midnight Event is something that's already been set in motion at the very outset of the game. Given Lambda's boasting, stopping it once the game begins may not even be possible.
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Old 2009-12-18, 05:36   Link #4231
Dlanor A. Knox
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Oh, I had a really weird tought 0.0

when Beato says that
"there are no more people than X on Rokki"
it always can be less.
but if you think about it then when she says:
"there are X people on Rokki"
means that there are X people on rokki, but there could also be X more 0.0
because she didnt say it like:
"there are ONLY X people on Rokki"

it just popped up in my mind.....
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Old 2009-12-18, 05:39   Link #4232
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But when did she say something like that? I thought she always used the same form. In other words she never states the exact amount of people but only the maximum possible.
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Old 2009-12-18, 06:15   Link #4233
Servant-Kanon
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I can only remember her saying
"there are no more people than X on Rokkenjima"
so yeah there is a possibilaty of being less than x people on the island
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Old 2009-12-18, 09:14   Link #4234
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
If we take Bern's analogy at face value, maybe it means that the Midnight Event is something that's already been set in motion at the very outset of the game. Given Lambda's boasting, stopping it once the game begins may not even be possible.
About that... Battler being on the island is one of the trigger that makes this event happen, right? We know this since Ep4.

Just to say, but if the bomb theory is actually serious (which I still don't think it is, btw), then it couldn't have been set up by Kinzo since Battler being absent wouldn't change anything. Not that the idea of a timer bigger than 2 years was good in the first place...

As for my old idea of Battler killing himself at the end of Ep4, which was told that it wasn't likely due to Battler's nature... I would like to add in this the possibility of Battler being under the effect of alcohol, like in Ep2. I was told Battler would remember Ange, but thinking it could have been all his fault + alcohol... yeah.

Furthermore, do we actually know what the police found after Ep4? I don't remember seeing anything proving that the state of the corpses (not being found I think?) after the game is the same everytime.
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Old 2009-12-18, 09:27   Link #4235
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Beatrice always says the total amount of people on the island. So, yes, there is the possibility of there being less than the total amount.
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Old 2009-12-18, 09:46   Link #4236
Jan-Poo
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The only thing that is confirmed from the 1998 perspective is that everyone that took part in the family conference of 1986 is believed to be dead, however Nanjo's body hasn't been found.

Nothing was stated on the conditions in which the bodies were found.


Anyway I'd like to analyze the situation considering what we have seen in the anime.

First thing: Kawabata points to the direction where the main port used to be. You can't see anything there, even though there was a small building there in episode1. Considering that Kawabata doesn't go there, it can be assumed that not only the port and the building aren't there anymore but the winding path to get up to the mansion doesn't exist either.

Second: not a single glimpse of the Mansion, the guesthouse and the chapel are shown. If they are still there the anime just doesn't show them, not even from a distance.

third: the area sealed off by the police is a wide one, you aren't even close to the buildings from the point Ange crosses the fence. I'm no expert of crime scenes but usually they only seal off small areas, plus there was no need for it to be still there after 12 years.

fourth: apparently Ange needs to climb down that huge cliff to proceed further, but there's absolutely nothing beyond that except the wide sea, and the Mansion was supposed to on an elevated area.


This reinforces my idea of what happened on Rokkenjima:

A whole giant portion of Rokkenjima crumbled down and submerged into the ocean. Everything that included the Mansion, the guesthouse, the garden and the chapel, was swallowed in the incident and disappeared completely.
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Old 2009-12-18, 09:50   Link #4237
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The only thing that is confirmed from the 1998 perspective is that everyone that took part in the family conference of 1986 is believed to be dead, however Nanjo's body hasn't been found.

Nothing was stated on the conditions in which the bodies were found.


Anyway I'd like to analyze the situation considering what we have seen in the anime.

First thing: Kawabata points to the direction where the main port used to be. You can't see anything there, even though there was a small building there in episode1. Considering that Kawabata doesn't go there, it can be assumed that not only the port and the building aren't there anymore but the winding path to get up to the mansion doesn't exist either.

Second: not a single glimpse of the Mansion, the guesthouse and the chapel are shown. If they are still there the anime just doesn't show them, not even from a distance.

third: the area sealed off by the police is a wide one, you aren't even close to the buildings from the point Ange crosses the fence. I'm no expert of crime scenes but usually they only seal off small areas, plus there was no need for it to be still there after 12 years.

fourth: apparently Ange needs to climb down that huge cliff to proceed further, but there's absolutely nothing beyond that except the wide sea, and the Mansion was supposed to on an elevated area.


This reinforces my idea of what happened on Rokkenjima:

A whole giant portion of Rokkenjima crumbled down and submerged into the ocean. Everything that included the Mansion, the guesthouse, the garden and the chapel, was swallowed in the incident and disappeared completely.
The problem is that this would require a very, very large land movement to accomplish. Something of that magnitude would not go unnoticed considering the apparent traffic in the area (fishermen, tourists etc.) and such an event would have reverberated in the minds of the locals. There should be information regarding such an event to be available for Ange to see. We can't simply say that the story failed to reveal this information that SHOULD readily be available; that would be sloppy amateurish writing.
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Old 2009-12-18, 10:05   Link #4238
Jan-Poo
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It is quite apparent that something has been concealed to us. As much as you don't like the idea, it is absolutely preposterous to think that a public announcement of what happened there wasn't given. There is absolutely no mention of the Rokkenjima incident being a mystery for anyone that doesn't buy what the talk shows and magazine state, and those only started after the second message in the bottle was found, two years later.

Don't you think the speculations would have started a lot earlier if the authorities didn't explain a thing of what happened there? 17 people of a very rich family died with a single survivor and the police doesn't even give an opinion on what happened?
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Old 2009-12-18, 10:10   Link #4239
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Well there is the theory that, There is a tunnel at the base of the island that allows any person to go in and out and into any area as they please without being noticed by anyone. Considering that, the possibility of a large landslide of that magnitude is likely, but its like you said, there's no way that wouldn't be noticed.
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Old 2009-12-18, 10:24   Link #4240
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It is quite apparent that something has been concealed to us. As much as you don't like the idea, it is absolutely preposterous to think that a public announcement of what happened there wasn't given. There is absolutely no mention of the Rokkenjima incident being a mystery for anyone that doesn't buy what the talk shows and magazine state, and those only started after the second message in the bottle was found, two years later.

Don't you think the speculations would have started a lot earlier if the authorities didn't explain a thing of what happened there? 17 people of a very rich family died with a single survivor and the police doesn't even give an opinion on what happened?
Well it is clear that something's clearly amiss: it is highly possible that the mastermind had a hand in making sure that the truth post-tragedy was deeply clouded if not outright concealed. What I'm calling out is the idea that such a massive movement in landmass could be concealed with NOBODY, not a soul, ever knowing.

Something similar was possible in Hinamizawa but only because it was limited to people; geographical landscapes are a far different issue altogether. Such a massive restructuring cannot go unnoticed, and even if they'd cover it up with man-made land it would take years of labor to cover it up in such a scale. This isn't even taking into account the sheer amount of energy needed to cause such an upheaval in the first place.
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