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Old 2009-12-18, 11:23   Link #4241
chounokoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Something similar was possible in Hinamizawa but only because it was limited to people; geographical landscapes are a far different issue altogether. Such a massive restructuring cannot go unnoticed, and even if they'd cover it up with man-made land it would take years of labor to cover it up in such a scale. This isn't even taking into account the sheer amount of energy needed to cause such an upheaval in the first place.
Especially considering that we are talking about an island that is at the center of about 10 smaller and bigger earthquakes each year...it would have taken something of at least the magnitude of a 7-8 earthquake to actually SUBMERGE parts of Rokkenjima...and a quake like that would have showed MASSIVE effects in main Japan, too.

It could be possible that Eva or the one she was in contact with through Episode 3 (the mysterious true identity of Eva-Beatrice) convinced the government of Tokyo to actually keep that area sealed.
Considering it is still a private island, which now belongs to Eva and later Ange (unless it was sold ,but seeing that Eva was still rich I don't think she would), it is not that much of a surprise for an 'Tresspassing forbidden' sign to be found there.
Who knows what they actually found there of course...there COULD be reasons for anyone beng forbidden to enter Rokkenjima, but in that case it wasn't hinted to the reader at all.

It's also been 12 years already since anyone cared for the mansion and the sorrounding area, so it wouldn't be that much of a surprise to me, if it was just taken in by vegetation, at large parts being grown over by weed and dilapidated to a huge amount.

I know how many people seem assured in their disaster theory, because the map of Rokkenjima in episode 25 and the island in the opening scene seem so fundamentaly different...but that could also be, because DEEN noticed, that the island they drew for the opening is just way to large and has to many mountainous regions on it.
It is said that there would be a walk of about 2km between the mansion and Kuwadorian, which is obstructed by forest. But as the opening map draws it, there are also 2 mountainous parts, which would force you to criss-cross about the island to actually reach the forest area at the other end.
It is also impossible to place Kuwadorian somewhere else, as it is explicitely stated it has got a harbour and it is located on the backside of the island...so I think DEEN just manouvered themselves in a corner with the opening image of Rokkenjima...and maybe Ryukishi didn't have enough knowledge of geographical properties to actually see it's off.

I mean...for the map in 25 to actually show a flat area where it is coloured yellow, they would have had to level parts of a mountain as far as I see that...
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Old 2009-12-18, 12:58   Link #4242
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Servant-Kanon View Post
I can only remember her saying
"there are no more people than X on Rokkenjima"
so yeah there is a possibilaty of being less than x people on the island
In ep5, it's stated that the people in a room are everyone who is on the island.

Naturally, even though we see every person described, we aren't given a hard and fast number. The only numbers we ever get are "less than x" (actually "not x+1 or more" in Japanese, but it means the same thing mathematically). I'm sure it's on purpose, but I won't opine on what it could mean.
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Old 2009-12-18, 16:07   Link #4243
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I'm fairly confident Rosa has some sort of connection, simply because (and I can't believe no one noticed this yet) Rosa was with the other siblings in the chapel when they accepted Beatrice in EP2, and yet, had no idea where they were the next day.
(And it was not just another Studio Deen mess-up, she was there in the VN too)
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Old 2009-12-18, 16:20   Link #4244
Megaolix
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Originally Posted by Number1-Syaoran-Fan View Post
I'm fairly confident Rosa has some sort of connection, simply because (and I can't believe no one noticed this yet) Rosa was with the other siblings in the chapel when they accepted Beatrice in EP2, and yet, had no idea where they were the next day.
(And it was not just another Studio Deen mess-up, she was there in the VN too)
Hello? Who said that scene was real in the first place? Battler wasn't here and no red confirm Rosa's presence that night.

But now that I saw the importance of that place, it's probable that the six were here because of the epitaph. In fact, here's a scenario: they enter, understand the epitaph and have a drink in celebration... But it was drugged by the killer so that he could slit them open and make the preparations without any problem.
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Old 2009-12-18, 16:39   Link #4245
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Many people noticed that Rosa was in the chapel that night, that's one of the many reasons why Episode 2 is still one of the hardest to solve...because that scene strongly hints towards Rosa being the culprit of Episode 2, yet it would be too easy (like Eva-Beatrice just being a representation of Eva's It).

It was also stated that At the time of the murders, the culprit was inside the chapel which would mean, if we don't want to suspect Rosa, we have to believe it was actually as we were shown and there was a person, clad in a school uniform, wielding the name Beatrice with them in the chapel.

What leads me to believe that we are to prove that Rosa is not guilty is
Spoiler for Episode 5 finale:


Of course there are as many hints about Rosa being a possible culprit as there are for a 18th person to actually exist.
At least Kyrie is supposed to have met someone and actually talked with other people about that...except this is only her description of events that we get to see...

What I'm trying to say is, we still don't know if what we see is Beatrice's interpretation of the truth, the individual protagonist's (of that scene) interpretation, or the truth of the future that was jumbled together by for example the witch hunters....it could be all of them...the only thing we know is that certain scenes are not 100% right...but we also don't know the percentage of 'wrongness'
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Old 2009-12-18, 18:26   Link #4246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Many people noticed that Rosa was in the chapel that night ...

It was also stated that At the time of the murders, the culprit was inside the chapel ...


... Of course there are as many hints about Rosa being a possible culprit as there are for a 18th person to actually exist.
I think it was said that Rosa didn't believe in Beatrice till the end of EP2.
So actually all of the adults acknowledged Beatrice, beside Rosa.
Everyone who was in the chapel acknowledged Beatrice, beside Rosa, who
later said she hadn't been there.
Maybe in the chapel happened something important where she wasn't present,
and that why she said she wasn't "there".

I guess the people in the chapel planned something (how to get to the gold, or something like that) convincing, that even Kyrie agreed to do it.
Rosa was the only one who disagreed, so she left the chapel.
Because Rosa left the chapel she wasn't killed by the murderer. Thus Rosa can not be the murderer, because she wasn't in the chapel at the time the murders happened.
(I hope my blue is correctly used. O: )
But I'm sure there must have been a contract, and Rosa was the only one who didn't sign, so she was forced to in the end of Ep 2.
Because of that I don't think she is the murderer ...

We could say Rosa is the murderer though, so I guess my theory isn't entirely convincing.


I hope you were able to read it without any problems. <:
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Old 2009-12-18, 18:44   Link #4247
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Rosa being present and leaving is a perfectly reasonable explanation if you want to believe the chapel scene is true. After all, nothing in that scene suggests anyone is going to be murdered. For all we know, somebody who wasn't in that scene at all suddenly burst in on the chapel, killed everyone present (Rosa and "Beatrice" having left for some reason), and then left. The killer just has to be with the victims in the chapel when they died. Before and after that, he or she needn't be there.
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Old 2009-12-18, 18:49   Link #4248
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Maria let a person in, that person killed the six that were in there, then left. I don't see how it isn't that simple.
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Old 2009-12-18, 18:59   Link #4249
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I just went back into Episode 2 to confirm another thing which bugged me since somebody mentioned it here and I finally found it again.

Remember when Rosa goes to Kinzo's study to gather all people together and make sure everyone is still around?
When she walks up the stairs, a little golden butterfly appears from one of the corridors and latches onto her back and stays there while she ascends the stairs. In this moment piece dress-Beatrice appears laughing:
「さぁて次はどう遊ばせてもらおうか?まだまだ駒はいくらでもある。」
("Weeell, how shall you let me play next? There are still so many pieces around.")

And when Rosa enters the parlour again, she says the following thing about what happened in the study:
「お父様はご無事でしたが、突然の出来事に多少、取り乱していました。幸いにも、部屋からは出ないといって いますので、安全でしょう。後、私達は極力、同じ場所に集まるべきです。」
("Father was safe, but he was quite upset by the sudden events. Luckily he said that he wouldn't leave his room, therefore he should be safe. Finally, we have to do our best to stay together at one place.")

Was Rosa convinced that Kinzo was still around? Did she even enter the study herself or was she only 'informed' by Genji and Shannon?
And how did her mood suddenly swing from 'I'll go up to the study alone' to 'I will not let anyone go around alone'?
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:12   Link #4250
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"Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!" (「真里亞の鍵は、真里亞受領後から翌日の楼座開封の瞬間まで、誰の手にも渡っていない!!」

I'd say that rules out Maria as having used the key.

Explanations:
1) Rosa lied about the envelope being sealed at 6AM.
2) The key was used to lock the door before Maria received the key.
3) The door was locked from the inside, and whoever did so left some other way. S/he later used some means to make it appear locked from the inside. (Example: Put some crazy glue or other stickum along the inside of the window before closing it. Lock the window from the inside while checking whether it was locked.)
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:36   Link #4251
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I agree, the chapel key passed through no one's hands, not even Maria's, until it was unsealed by Rosa the following day.

I guess it's possible that the door was never locked to begin with but isn't that kind of a cheap trick?
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:50   Link #4252
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I agree, the chapel key passed through no one's hands, not even Maria's, until it was unsealed by Rosa the following day.

I guess it's possible that the door was never locked to begin with but isn't that kind of a cheap trick?

I suppose that's true. Are there other keys to the Chapel? Do the master keys open the chapel? I guess I remember there's only one key to the chapel.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:52   Link #4253
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Maria let a person in, that person killed the six that were in there, then left. I don't see how it isn't that simple.
Very. If we're assuming that the people of the 1st Twilight was the culprit, I'm guessing it can be Kyrie or Shannon. Mostly Shannon.

Although there's three dead people, did anyone say they died in that room? They could've been dragged there while being killed going to the parlour.

WAIT! Wasn't the parlour locked?!
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Old 2009-12-18, 20:14   Link #4254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol
I agree, the chapel key passed through no one's hands, not even Maria's, until it was unsealed by Rosa the following day.

I guess it's possible that the door was never locked to begin with but isn't that kind of a cheap trick?
How so? It's perfectly reasonable for Battler to have been mislead about it, because he (and the readers) never suspected that Genji might have been lying about the door being locked. Lies and misdirection are clearly Beato's main weapons, and it's not like she's never let Battler skip merrily down the garden path instead of correcting him before. We've even got the lie about Kinzo for comparison; his study looked like a closed room in EP1, but only because we didn't suspect such a huge lie could be taking place to support it. Is it cheap that the study wasn't a closed room because Kinzo was never there?
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Old 2009-12-18, 20:24   Link #4255
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
How so? It's perfectly reasonable for Battler to have been mislead about it, because he (and the readers) never suspected that Genji might have been lying about the door being locked. Lies and misdirection are clearly Beato's main weapons, and it's not like she's never let Battler skip merrily down the garden path instead of correcting him before. We've even got the lie about Kinzo for comparison; his study looked like a closed room in EP1, but only because we didn't suspect such a huge lie could be taking place to support it. Is it cheap that the study wasn't a closed room because Kinzo was never there?
True that. I suppose as furnitures, they wouldn't even bother with the chapel. They don't seem religious (ironically with the chapel), and maybe since Kinzo's death to pray for Beatrice, they just left it. It wasn't locked, but it was forgotten.

Either way, the furnitures and people of Rokkenjima obviously knew Kinzo was dead. He indeed is dead, and based of Natsushi's and Krauss' idea, they are hiding it to avoid confrontation and money business. As furniture, they naturally accept it.

HOWEVER! Someone in the family figured this out, and did this whole shinanegan. Although along with the letter, the only suspect to hold the gold ring was Krauss, Natsushi, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Jessica, Shannon, Kanon, Genji, and Gohda. Big group there, and not to mention they may all be cross-dressers.
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Old 2009-12-18, 20:39   Link #4256
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
How so? It's perfectly reasonable for Battler to have been mislead about it, because he (and the readers) never suspected that Genji might have been lying about the door being locked. Lies and misdirection are clearly Beato's main weapons, and it's not like she's never let Battler skip merrily down the garden path instead of correcting him before. We've even got the lie about Kinzo for comparison; his study looked like a closed room in EP1, but only because we didn't suspect such a huge lie could be taking place to support it. Is it cheap that the study wasn't a closed room because Kinzo was never there?
This is a very thin line. You have to think if this would help Battler discover the truth or not. This was Beatrice's goal from the beginning.

Kinzo is a different matter. If it were revealed that Kinzo was dead at the beginning of all games at the very start that would raise suspicion on everyone who was hiding Kinzo's status.
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Old 2009-12-18, 21:07   Link #4257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
This is a very thin line. You have to think if this would help Battler discover the truth or not. This was Beatrice's goal from the beginning.

Kinzo is a different matter. If it were revealed that Kinzo was dead at the beginning of all games at the very start that would raise suspicion on everyone who was hiding Kinzo's status.
And strangely, everybody is hiding Kinzo's status, even though sometimes it should objectively be helping them to actually confess that he is dead...
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Old 2009-12-18, 22:36   Link #4258
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
And strangely, everybody is hiding Kinzo's status, even though sometimes it should objectively be helping them to actually confess that he is dead...
This in turn speaks volumes about the mental and belief statuses of the people involved in said conspiracy. If they can willingly go so far to hide the death of the family head even through complete alteration of the lives, how more so with all the deaths around?
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Old 2009-12-18, 23:59   Link #4259
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So we switch from "How" to "Why" ?
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Old 2009-12-19, 00:02   Link #4260
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It's almost always been an issue of "why?" because most of everything follows when you know "why?"
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