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Old 2009-12-20, 21:37   Link #4301
Jan-Poo
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Well yeah two Beatrice is also a possibility that I'm considering, especially after seeing the EP6 cover. You know what I think? I'm beginning to think that the Beatrice that pay a visit to Shannon and Kanon is actually a memory of the 1967 Beatrice or the original Beatrice. Maybe they found her secret diary or something and they start to visualize her the same way Ange does with Maria.
Beatrice works as an alluring prospective for them to stop being furniture and find love, what we see there is the personification of a temptation. In the end, however, both Shannon and Kanon became the physical proxy of Beatrice in the real world.

As for the sin who causes people to die, it is probably something on the lines of "Keichi's sin". Who knows what kind of complex tragic situation was unconsciously triggered by Battler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nontype View Post
Does it work now? if not, try this link http://img.imgcake.com/pony_theory.jpg

It actually addresses your concern about the sin "not being between battler and beatrice" in a pretty interesting way. Personally, I like it, but I don't think it's true. It would make for an interesting AU though. Reading the Easymodo threads does really flesh it out, too.
Oh, I can state that at least one thing there is 100% wrong

this is Manon: 眞音
And this is Maria: 真里亞

not the same Kanji.
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Old 2009-12-20, 21:53   Link #4302
Kitsu
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Well yeah two Beatrice is also a possibility that I'm considering, especially after seeing the EP6 cover. You know what I think? I'm beginning to think that the Beatrice that pay a visit to Shannon and Kanon is actually a memory of the 1967 Beatrice or the original Beatrice. Maybe they found her secret diary or something and they start to visualize her the same way Ange does with Maria.
Beatrice works as an alluring prospective for them to stop being furniture and find love, what we see there is the personification of a temptation. In the end, however, both Shannon and Kanon became the physical proxy of Beatrice in the real world.
Hm~, that is an intereseting thought and I wouldn't be surprised if something like that would be the case. But ehy would they "do" something like that. Ange envisioned Maria cause she had a bound with her beforehand, knew her and because she was really lonely and isolated. It was a deperate "action" (unwillingly but well). Shannon and Kanon might have been lonely but why owuld they envision a dead woman they didn't know?

The thing that bothers me about this part of the game is. Who is the narrator? How do we see this? Do we still see it throtugh a gameboard..through Beatrice words. A reality which can be bended to fool the viewer?
If that were the case...for example when Beatrice and Shannon were sitting at the beach and talking. Maybe in reality Jessica and Shannon were just at the beach chattering?


Quote:
As for the sin who causes people to die, it is probably something on the lines of "Keichi's sin". Who knows what kind of complex tragic situation was unconsciously triggered by Battler.
Yeah, but Shion has the Hinamizawa syndrome and wasn't really stable. It is ehm understandable that such a "minimal" sin could trigger something like that cause Shions mental state was really fragile to begin with.
But here??
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Old 2009-12-20, 21:54   Link #4303
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
How do you get around that?
That's quite simple, I believe. If we remember Beatrice's dream at the beginning of EP3, we know she wasn't born with that name. "Beatrice" was a title she inherited. So, if Battler met that girl before she inherited that title, then the sin he's being asked about is indeed not between him and Beatrice.

Something I found interesting is that, unlike the Beatrice Rosa met, the girl in Beatrice's dream didn't seem to wonder about who she was. For example, the Beatrice Rosa met said Beatrice was her name, and that's that. In fact, it seemed as if that identity was forced on her. On the other hand, the girl in Beatrice's dream most likely had her own name - which quite likely wasn't Beatrice. And she inherited the title "Beatrice" out of her own will. So, I believe the Beatrice Rosa met and the one in Beatrice's dream are different people.

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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Yeah, but Shion has the Hinamizawa syndrome and wasn't really stable. It is ehm understandable that such a "minimal" sin could trigger something like that cause Shions mental state was really fragile to begin with.
But here??
I think with K1's sin he meant "not trusting his friends".

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Oh, I can state that at least one thing there is 100% wrong

this is Manon: 眞音
And this is Maria: 真里亞

not the same Kanji.
It'd seem you can easily exchange the 1st kanjis in their names, though. Since they basically mean the same thing. All the same, I'm not a kanji expert; so, I'll refrain from discussing this any further.
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Last edited by Used Can; 2009-12-20 at 22:07.
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Old 2009-12-20, 22:04   Link #4304
Kaiba
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Originally Posted by Nontype View Post
Does it work now? if not, try this link http://img.imgcake.com/pony_theory.jpg

It actually addresses your concern about the sin "not being between battler and beatrice" in a pretty interesting way. Personally, I like it, but I don't think it's true. It would make for an interesting AU though.
It's interesting, and explains the role of Kumasawa than my variation, but I am fairly puzzled then as to who is Beatrice III.
Assuming that Beatrice III is on the island at the time of the murders, than there are two possibilities: either she is one of the 17 or she is not. If she is not, that turns into Unknown Person X territory, so I'll go ahead and rule that out - as far as I'm concerned, one of the important aspects of the game is that Battler MUST realize someone on the island whom he might be close to is the murder (incidentally, this reason is why I'm so disinclined to suspect Kanon as being part of the murders, even though I really can't disprove him being part of them - out of all the people on the island, accusing Kanon and Gohda would be the easiest path out for Battler, as he barely knows the two of them, and I've discussed elsewhere why I'm certain Gohda has nothing to do with it.)
Now let us assume that Beatrice III is one of the people on the island then. Whom could it be?
Let us begin whom we can absolutely, 100% rule out.

Your theory explicitly rules out Genji, Battler, Shannon, and Kumasawa. If Shannon is roughly the same age as Beatrice, than that pretty much explicitly rules out everyone except Jessica ........and George . However, we know George meets Kinzo sometime in 1984 or 1983 when Eva takes him to see him in Episode 2, and while it's possible that Kinzo didn't recognize him, George seemed remarkably calm about meeting someone who had sexually assaulted him .... and that's not even getting into someone like George disguising as Beatrice.

Jessica is interesting. At first glance, one might argue that since Kinzo should have regularly seen Jessica in the early 1980s, it's impossible for the escaped Beatrice to be her. However, I will respond by a previous theory I've seen before:

Spoiler for Jessica Beatrice Theory (spoilered for length:


In that theory, Kinzo dies later either from Jessica fighting back from being sexually assaulted or from Krauss going batshit after losing it. This would explain the fact that Kinzo died suddenly, as pertains to Episode 5.

Therefore, under /a/'s theory, the only person whom could possibly be Beatrice would be Jessica. It's an interesting thought, and might work where my theory doesn't.


Quote:
That's quite simple, I believe. If we remember Beatrice's dream at the beginning of EP3, we know she wasn't born with that name. "Beatrice" was a title she inherited. So, if Battler met that girl before she inherited that title, then the sin he's being asked about is indeed not between him and Beatrice.

Something I found interesting is that, unlike the Beatrice Rosa met, the girl in Beatrice's dream didn't seem to wonder about who she was. For example, the Beatrice Rosa met said Beatrice was her name, and that's that. In fact, it seemed as if that identity was forced on her. On the other hand, the girl in Beatrice's dream most likely had her own name - which quite likely wasn't Beatrice. And she inherited the title "Beatrice" out of her own will. So, I believe the Beatrice Rosa met and the one in Beatrice's dream are different people.
Possible, but as I already described up there, that girl is either one of the 17 or unknown person X.
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Old 2009-12-20, 22:04   Link #4305
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
That's quite simple, I believe. If we remember Beatrice's dream at the beginning of EP3, we know she wasn't born with that name. "Beatrice" was a title she inherited. So, if Battler met that girl before she inherited that title, then the sin he's being asked about is indeed not between him and Beatrice.
Not really convincing since the pony theory calles her "Beatrice III" and states that it was adopted by Kinzo to replace the one that died in 1967. You'd need to revise this part to make it credible, because obviously Kinzo tried to raise the 1967 girl as Beatrice and it would make zero sense for him to do it again but skipping the name part.
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Old 2009-12-20, 22:12   Link #4306
Used Can
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I wasn't really going by that pony theory. I just wanted to get around that red.

But, anyway, I do remember the girl in Beatrice's dream talking about a certain grandfather. So, perhaps that was Kinzo? As for him raising her to be a new Beatrice. I honestly wouldn't know. The one Rosa met is still quite mysterious, in my opinion.
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Old 2009-12-20, 22:44   Link #4307
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The Jessica is Beatrice theory is interesting. In episode 6, we'll probably learn whether or not she knew about Kinzo's status all along.

By the way, here's a link to a page that contains that Jessica is Beatrice theory as well as some other interesting theories:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...koNoNakuKoroNi
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Old 2009-12-20, 22:51   Link #4308
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The Jessica is Beatrice theory is interesting. In episode 6, we'll probably learn whether or not she knew about Kinzo's status all along.
IIRC, the anime had an especially blatant clue about that. In the first episode when everyone was being escorted into the guest house...

Rudolf: How's Father's condition been lately?
Jessica: He's real lively! You'd never even guess that he only had three months to live.
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Old 2009-12-20, 23:45   Link #4309
Ssol
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Ah, you're right. The anime changed how she described Kinzo's status completely. Here what was said in the VN:
Quote:
Rudolf: Jessica-chan, what's the head of our family's mood been lately?

Jessica: ...Hmm...Same as last year, I guess. ...Considering they say he's got three months left, he's as stubborn, grumpy, and irritable as ever.

...He's shut himself up in his study again, probably doing nothing but that weird black magic of his. What he does for a hobby is his own damn business, but when he starts stinking up the house, it really gets on my nerves. ...And I wish he'd never come out of that study again. Heheheh!
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Old 2009-12-21, 00:01   Link #4310
ameskitty
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Ah, you're right. The anime changed how she described Kinzo's status completely. Here what was said in the VN:
That's a lot more questionable. To me that sounds a lot more like "Yeah, well, I haven't really seen him, now that I think about it, but I don't really give a damn and I wish he'd just die so they'd stop talking about him." It sounds a lot like Jessica's going off what the other people say, but then again if she's in on the "official story" it would also give off that tone.

Wonder if it's something they could've potentially forgot to check :/. If it's not that's pretty close to a confirmation, although there is still the possibility that it's not and Ryukishi let it slide because she doesn't outright say "I saw him the other day" or something.

As for the significance of Jessica knowing...I'd have to say there's very little. It kind of contradicts the stupidly loud side of her personality, but it goes with how she's defensive of her parents. In any case it doesn't have to make her Beatrice or the culprit.

EDIT: That does raise the question, though - why was it not made clear in the first place whether she knows or not?
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Old 2009-12-21, 01:37   Link #4311
k//eternal
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Incidentally, when DOES he "stink up the house" (except for as a burned corpse)? It isn't anything that's happened recently, is it?
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Old 2009-12-21, 03:11   Link #4312
Jokon
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Hello Umineko fans! I've been reading a number of threads and wanted to propose a theory regarding the number of people on the island. Unfortunately it relies on a nuance in language that may not exist in the original Japanese text. Since I do not speak, read or write Japanese I wanted to propose this theory in the open where someone could proof it.

This theory is based on knowledge gained up through EP4 and thus may be completely smashed by EP5 or EP6.

Although no more than 17 people exist on Rokkenjima during the time frame of the gameboards it is possible for more than 17 humans to exist on the island during that time.

This theory is based on the nuance that although person and human are virtually synonyms a person can be described as someone who is acknowledged as being part of a group. Given the lawful nature of the gameboards, a human who is stateless may not be considered a person as they do not have citizenship or official documents (birth certificate, registry)! Although there are numerous methods of gaining citizenship (and thus acknowledgement as a person) it is notoriously difficult for immigrants to become nationalized Japanese citizens. One way of becoming stateless is to be born on the open sea, but this method is only offered to satisfy the Devil's Proof.

Thus, Beatrice the human exists on Rokkenjima during all gameboards but since she lacks proper acknowledgement she can not be recognized as a person! Or a witch! Only human!.

If anyone can cut me down with some red truth from the original Japanese text, please do. I'm killing myself over here in thought.
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Old 2009-12-21, 03:13   Link #4313
k//eternal
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
With Kinzo already dead but his death unackowledged and hidden, his legal status should be that he's still alive. Since the person count was reduced for his death despite him being "legally" alive, this doesn't hold.

Similarly, no authorities are able to process anyone's deaths on the island during the game, so the red clearly isn't bound by legal status.
Crossposting from the other thread.
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Old 2009-12-21, 03:18   Link #4314
Jokon
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Just because Kinzo is dead though doesn't mean he was not/is not a person; death doesn't erase that record.
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Old 2009-12-21, 03:41   Link #4315
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Originally Posted by Jokon View Post
Just because Kinzo is dead though doesn't mean he was not/is not a person; death doesn't erase that record.
Can you show the proof that game used two different words - like you used "person and human" when describing the number of people on the island?

If not, there is no way to distinguish the two meanings at all. And what you said could not be true.

From what I have read, the Japanese texts used 人 when Beatrice said there were no more than 17 people on the island. She used 人 also in saying only Battler lived at the end of EP4. If what you said is correct, then the 人 used in the first case means "people", then it should be the same for the case of at the end of EP4 since the word used is the same. However, what you said is Beatrice was not a "person" but only a "human" so she could exist outside the 17 people. That could not explain why she said only 1 person existed at the end of EP4. Of course, you could argue that she killed herself some time before that.

But anyway, any theory attempting to create a space for 18X is missing the meaning of Umineko, IMO.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-21 at 03:53.
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Old 2009-12-21, 03:52   Link #4316
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jokon View Post
*snip*
Unknown Person X, in other words. Yeah, no, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokon View Post
Just because Kinzo is dead though doesn't mean he was not/is not a person; death doesn't erase that record.
Then he should still count towards the "person count".

My theory is that people/humans still in existence when the game begins count towards the "no more than 17 on the island", even after they have died.

As Kinzo is always dead for over a year before the game begins, he doesn't count towards the 17.

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
From what I have read, the Japanese texts used 人 consistently.
Ah, the magic of language.
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Old 2009-12-21, 06:16   Link #4317
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
IIRC, the anime had an especially blatant clue about that. In the first episode when everyone was being escorted into the guest house...

Rudolf: How's Father's condition been lately?
Jessica: He's real lively! You'd never even guess that he only had three months to live.
I actually found very suspicious that in Ep5 nothing is told about how Jessica dealt with Kinzo's death. I don't think it is very credible that she doesn't know because we have clear hints that Jessica used to see Kinzo around the house. Many people pointed how Jessica isn't smart, but she isn't a total airhead. Suddenly you don't see your grand father for two years straight and you don't even get suspicious? That can't be.

I am ready to bet that Jessica knows, 'though I don't know why it was concealed in Ep5.
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Old 2009-12-21, 06:38   Link #4318
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I actually found very suspicious that in Ep5 nothing is told about how Jessica dealt with Kinzo's death. I don't think it is very credible that she doesn't know because we have clear hints that Jessica used to see Kinzo around the house. Many people pointed how Jessica isn't smart, but she isn't a total airhead. Suddenly you don't see your grand father for two years straight and you don't even get suspicious? That can't be.

I am ready to bet that Jessica knows, 'though I don't know why it was concealed in Ep5.
Perhaps, if she does know, that her knowledge of his death but the concealment of this is central to the mystery, at least for Ep5?

DUNDUNDUNDUUUUUUN!
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Old 2009-12-21, 07:13   Link #4319
ijriims
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Well, Gohda did not suspect anything even he had not seen Kinzo for 2 years. So, it was not surprising that Jessica suspected nothing.

Well, they were, in my opinion, .............similarly innocent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suddenly I thought of something:

if Kinzo's death was concealed from Gohda, then he must still be cooking for Kinzo's meal all along. So WHO took care of the extra food?

Probably Shannon, this explained why she had such an amazing body...
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Old 2009-12-21, 07:21   Link #4320
Kitsu
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Well, Gohda did not suspect anything even he had not seen Kinzo for 2 years. So, it was not surprising that Jessica suspected nothing.

Well, they were, in my opinion, .............similarly innocent.
I think there is a big difference between Gohda and Jessica. Gohda never knew Kinzo and wasn't used to meet him, get scolded by him etc. Also I think Gohda doesn't live on the island, correct?
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