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Old 2009-12-29, 01:33   Link #4581
k//eternal
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Then it should have taken three wolves to take them down.

The problem with the statment is really that the wolves and sheep puzzle never had a provision for blinding either type of animal, so you can only take it so far.
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Old 2009-12-29, 01:35   Link #4582
TTR
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Actually you're completely right. I mean, maybe it isn't that big of a deal... IIRC The tips that are in the character bios have a narrator bias, so the narrator of these bios might be placing false leads.
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Old 2009-12-29, 01:45   Link #4583
ijriims
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A bit off topic, it seems that EP6 is out today. Has anyone already ordered it?

---------------------------------------------------------

One should solve EP5 basing on one's theory on EP1-4, otherwise, one is going to fall for the dirty trick set by Ryukishi07 in EP5 if one tries to solve EP1-4 using information from EP5.

The major purpose of EP5 is to state some of the Beatrice's motives (not for revenge, not for fun), the game is already solvable and introduce Batter the Infinite Magician. The information from EP5 was not necessary from the beginning, if one has already found the "Answer".

I have seen many people trying to solve EP5 like an episode from Question Arc, but not using their own theory from EP1-4 to solve EP5.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-29 at 02:05.
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Old 2009-12-29, 01:58   Link #4584
k//eternal
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I don't think that's entirely true. EP5 certainly brings new information to the table, and running away from it for fear of the "dirty trick"... well, Ryukishi is full of dirty tricks anyway, so it's not like people are just lapping everything up.

EP1-4 should be technically solvable, but that doesn't mean later EPs can't be helpful. And it's not like we have a concensus for the solution to EP1-4 after all this time, so expecting one is probably unreasonable at this point.
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Old 2009-12-29, 02:17   Link #4585
Li Jianliang
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Spoiler for Observations concerning murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in EP5:

Spoiler for Theory concerning murder of George, Jessica, Maria, and Rosa in EP5:
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Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru episode 5: End of the golden witch
Translations & summaries & a billion screenshots
Part I | Part II | Part III | Part IV | Part V | Part VI | Part VII | Part VIII | Part IX | Part X | Part XI | Part XII In progress

Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru episode 6: Dawn of the golden witch
Translations & summaries & screenshots
Part I | Part II In progress

Last edited by Li Jianliang; 2009-12-29 at 02:40.
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Old 2009-12-29, 02:18   Link #4586
ijriims
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Not that EP5 contains no new information, just that none of the information is really necessary, and many of them got to be misleading anyway...

The trick... in my opinion, is some of the normal scenes (devoid of fantasy element) were completely fake. For example, some scenes before Oct 4th 1986...

------------------

@Li Jianliang: If you trusted the narration that Rudolf kept Batter from leaving at 1am, then you must also trust that Shannon, Kanon, Eva, Kyrie and Hideyoshi were inside the parlor as well. The red texts said that 24時の時点で、屋敷の2階廊下には、夏妃と蔵臼、源次がいた。残りは全員、1階の食堂。食堂の全員は、午 前1時まで、誰一人食堂を退出していない…!

So the five cannot get to guesthouse to murder the five during 00:00-1:00am as well

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-29 at 02:31.
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Old 2009-12-29, 02:35   Link #4587
Marion
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Your biggest flaw with the 1st twilight is that it couldn't have happened at all during the night, because of the red text concerning the bodies. They weren't moved after they died, which means they had to be moved before they died. In short none of the victims could have been dead when discovered at 7am.
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Old 2009-12-29, 03:00   Link #4588
Sir Andy Richter
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Uhh, what do you guys think of the theory that

Spoiler for EP5:
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Old 2009-12-29, 03:41   Link #4589
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Andy Richter View Post
Uhh, what do you guys think of the theory that

Spoiler for EP5:
Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-12-29, 03:53   Link #4590
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Question : Isn't Erika knowing in advance that a murder is gonna happen and placing seals everywhere against Knox 6th? No accidents or super intuiton allowed as detective technique?
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Old 2009-12-29, 07:55   Link #4591
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
Question : Isn't Erika knowing in advance that a murder is gonna happen and placing seals everywhere against Knox 6th? No accidents or super intuiton allowed as detective technique?
Her explanation was that because she knew that everywhere she went crimes must happen (usually homicide), as it was the case for any top detective. Because Battler just discovered the gold, she predicted him to be killed, so she set up the seals in advance.
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Old 2009-12-29, 08:12   Link #4592
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I thought when I said the bell ring was faked by GM, it meant that the truthness of some of the scenes was compromised anyway.

And my game showed that Eva knocked Kinzo's study at 22:47, not 23:00. So they had about 33 minutes to do all the things. Where did you find that 23:00 thing?
Erika said it was around 23:00, Erika is the detective and can't fail on noticing such a detail.

Quote:

Natsuhi: "I, ...it was me. Last night, ......up until the time of the uproar from when Battler found the gold, I was in Father's study, giving the daily report."


Erika: ".........So around 23:00 last night."
Quote:
Question : Isn't Erika knowing in advance that a murder is gonna happen and placing seals everywhere against Knox 6th? No accidents or super intuiton allowed as detective technique?
Yeah. That's one thing I always pointed out. Erika's explanation can't work in the real world. Such a thing as a murder always happening wherever a detective goes is only something that happens in novel. Plus, I've never read any serious novel where the detective plans in advance a strategy to find a culprit of a crime that hasn't even happened yet.
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Old 2009-12-29, 08:15   Link #4593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Her explanation was that because she knew that everywhere she went crimes must happen (usually homicide), as it was the case for any top detective. Because Battler just discovered the gold, she predicted him to be killed, so she set up the seals in advance.
Well isn't that intuition?
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Old 2009-12-29, 08:23   Link #4594
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
Well isn't that intuition?
No. It was more from... experience.

------------------------

@Jan-Poo:

As you quoted, Erika said it happened "about" 23:00. I found 22:47 when I used the "magic leap". Was she ever present when Eva knocked on study's door? If she was so precise, she should state out the exact time as she was with the adults when she and Battler was waiting in the parlor for Natsuhi to come down.

They probably hastened to where the gold was stored. And has it been said where it does take to walk from mansion to where the gold was hidden, or to the chapel?

------------------------

Erika was a mockery for all those detectives from novels. A meddling from Bern and Lambda indeed.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-29 at 08:40.
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Old 2009-12-29, 08:41   Link #4595
Jan-Poo
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She didn't need to be present. She knew when the gold was found and she was with Battler when they returned to the Main house to announce it.

22:47 is what the clock says when Erika and Battler are in front of the gold.

If you are using the clock as an objective measure anyway then why don't you use it when the family returns to the Mansion after seeing the gold which is 23:49 ?
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Old 2009-12-29, 08:51   Link #4596
ijriims
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The only insight given by EP5, was on why Eva and Hideyoshi left the family meeting so early.

It was always suspicious considering that they continued the "discussion" overnight in EP3 and EP5, their early withdrawal from the discussion did not make much sense.

From EP5, we knew that there should be an acting performed the next morning, and then they could find an excuse to break into Kinzo's study.

So in EP1, Eva also planned for an acting, this time the fives were Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, Gohda and Shannon. But this was not a plan for them to be "killed" but just missing. Krauss went missing was surprising to them, actually. The next morning when Natsuhi said she was going to inform Kinzo, she slipped the receipt between the door and wanted to force Natsuhi to admit she was hiding Kinzo's death again.

The sixes' bodies were found inside the garden shed was out of her and Hideyoshi's plan.
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Old 2009-12-29, 08:53   Link #4597
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
She didn't need to be present. She knew when the gold was found and she was with Battler when they returned to the Main house to announce it.

22:47 is what the clock says when Erika and Battler are in front of the gold.

If you are using the clock as an objective measure anyway then why don't you use it when the family returns to the Mansion after seeing the gold which is 23:49 ?
Because at around 00:00 Shannon and Kanon remembered they came "barely an hour ago", so 23:49 does not make sense.

I found evidence to doubt that the time showing 23:49 was fake, but I don't find any clues for the time 22:47 to be fake. And because EP5 followed Knox rules (which was never stated in red though, IIRC), I need clues to support my theory.
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Old 2009-12-29, 08:58   Link #4598
Jan-Poo
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By which premise you trust something that was said in the game board more than the clock?

We have several cases when we are sure that something that is said by characters in the gameboard isn't reliable.

But do we have any case where we know the clock time is false?


Even in the case they are correct, it doesn't help your theory. You said that the knock on the door actually happened at 23:20, right? So if Kanon and Shannon arrived one hour before it should have happened at 22:20+. But that's simply impossible.

Rather wouldn't this point out that the clock is running late and not early?

If Shannon and Kanon arrived at 23:49 or so, and when the knock is heard it passed nearly one hour, then the right time then was quite after midnight.
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Old 2009-12-29, 09:04   Link #4599
ijriims
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An additional clue was that the bell ring for 24:00 Oct 5th rang twice. First at the start of the fantasy court, second when Battler was to be revived in ???. So was there two 24:00 for Oct 5? Impossible. So I had clue to doubt the bell ring to be unreliable.

---------------------------------------

You could treat the sentence "barely an hour ago" to be a mistake made by GM, she wanted to portray Shannon and Kanon coming after 23:49 and knock incident happened at 24:00 but that sentence betrayed the fact that they actually came in much early in time.
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Old 2009-12-29, 09:07   Link #4600
Jan-Poo
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As I said they couldn't possibly have come earlier. Simply because no one was there at the time. At that time Battler and Erika were still looking at the gold. You'd have to distrust any single clock information we have been given. Not to mention you'd have to distrust Erika herself that points the time when the gold discovery was announced around 23:00

I think you should reconsider your theory and claim that the clock was running late rather than early
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