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Old 2010-01-04, 22:41   Link #5021
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Hmm, I'm thinking it might have something more to do with how the Game Master creates the world. I've always wondered how, practically speaking, Lambda, Beato, and Battler decided which scenes to show and furthermore, which false scenes to show. Maybe saying something in gold text is just a way to show something to the "player"...
Those two ideas aren't incompatible, I think. Another way to define magic might be "choosing a possible world inside a cat box," where the world could be true or false. If gold text allows you to narrate one of those possible worlds, then it could be responsible for all of the fantasy scenes we've witnessed. It would present a possibility, but unlike blue text, it couldn't be falsified with red or objective observations because there was no observer. Kind of a quantum truth.

If that's how gold works, then that unfalsifiability would make it stronger than red in some circumstances since you could use it to introduce otherwise unobserved information, like when Battler identified Kinzo's corpse. However, it would also be weaker in that it's only usable inside a cat box, and the bounds of the box are defined by red text and other observations. Outside of a cat box, it would be exactly equivalent to red text.

This gold would only be usable by someone who knows the truth, because only a person who knows the truth would understand which parts of the game board are really unobserved.
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Old 2010-01-04, 22:49   Link #5022
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Those two ideas aren't incompatible, I think. Another way to define magic might be "choosing a possible world inside a cat box," where the world could be true or false. If gold text allows you to narrate one of those possible worlds, then it could be responsible for all of the fantasy scenes we've witnessed. It would present a possibility, but unlike blue text, it couldn't be falsified with red or objective observations because there was no observer. Kind of a quantum truth.

If that's how gold works, then that unfalsifiability would make it stronger than red in some circumstances since you could use it to introduce otherwise unobserved information, like when Battler identified Kinzo's corpse. However, it would also be weaker in that it's only usable inside a cat box, and the bounds of the box are defined by red text and other observations. Outside of a cat box, it would be exactly equivalent to red text.

This gold would only be usable by someone who knows the truth, because only a person who knows the truth would understand which parts of the game board are really unobserved.
Well, that would mean the game master is indeed the creator because the observer is the creator. Total control of the board to a meta character. Ouch. I would hate to be one of the pieces. The gamemaster could literally add or remove boxes at their will if your theory is the case, as long as the boxes weren't observed. Since at least the boundary is most likely being observed, the gamemaster has control over the color of the box. Imagine playing chess versus an opponent who can change the color of the box a piece is in. Lol.

On second thought, they can change the color of the box the piece has yet to get to and the color of the box the piece has passed through and is currently unobserved only I guess. Still powerful but not unbeatable anymore. But we would need a definition of the other observer and just what and how he observes to be sure. If they can't keep watch over all the pieces at the same time, the game master can even flip the color of the pieces....ugh..
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Old 2010-01-04, 23:13   Link #5023
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Well, that would mean the game master is indeed the creator because the observer is the creator. Total control of the board to a meta character. Ouch. I would hate to be one of the pieces. The gamemaster could literally add or remove boxes at their will if your theory is the case, as long as the boxes weren't observed. Since at least the boundary is most likely being observed, the gamemaster has control over the color of the box. Imagine playing chess versus an opponent who can change the color of the box a piece is in. Lol.

On second thought, they can change the color of the box the piece has yet to get to and the color of the box the piece has passed through and is currently unobserved only I guess. Still powerful but not unbeatable anymore. But we would need a definition of the other observer and just what and how he observes to be sure. If they can't keep watch over all the pieces at the same time, the game master can even flip the color of the pieces....ugh..
Based on the arguments about subjective versus objective observers in Episode 5, I'd say that the objective observer in this case is the detective.

As far as changing the color of pieces, I think this is exactly what happened to Battler in Episode 4, to the extent that Beato even gloated about having done so. Since Battler was confined to the guesthouse for most of the game and could only observe the rest of the board via dubious telephone calls, almost the entire island became an enormous cat box. Beato flipped all of the pieces to black as they were lured outside and used them to construct the huge illusion we saw.
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Old 2010-01-04, 23:47   Link #5024
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Based on the arguments about subjective versus objective observers in Episode 5, I'd say that the objective observer in this case is the detective.

As far as changing the color of pieces, I think this is exactly what happened to Battler in Episode 4, to the extent that Beato even gloated about having done so. Since Battler was confined to the guesthouse for most of the game and could only observe the rest of the board via dubious telephone calls, almost the entire island became an enormous cat box. Beato flipped all of the pieces to black as they were lured outside and used them to construct the huge illusion we saw.
But the catch here is, unlike Battler using the gold truth to produce an otherwise unobserved corpse of Kinzo, which was a solid and verified observation as per the game, without any need for a proof of observation, Battler had to manually observe the corpses and confirm their fate. In other words, Beatrice isn't the observer for this cat box.

Schrodinger's cat works only upon observation or no observation. It can't be that some of the contents were shown as one observer saw fit simply because the other observer wasn't there and another observer later found the open box to vary from the other observer's box. That would mean that for the world at large, the scenes we were shown wasn't real in any sense of the word. No flipping pieces or anything is required. The scenes were purely fantasy.

Schrodinger's cat is not a proof like Hempel's Raven or The Devil's proof, its a state and a thought experiment to warn against absurdity. Therefore, as long as the observer that's supposed to observe it doesn't observe it, its rather absurd to claim that some other force flipped the contents inside. They can only hypothesize the content, they can't change it, be they a witch, a demon or even the almighty himself. Its a borderline absurd theory that can't be explained unless you either consider it nominal, consider the many universes situation or consider the linked cats situation. I would rather not deal it so lightly as to claim it was used for flipping pieces when the observer himself is the content of the cat box (Beatrice exists only within the cat box, and the cat within the box doesn't count as the observer).

It has to have been Battler the detective or golden truths needed to be stated. Others don't count as the observer.

And the contents of the catbox, flipped or not, are by definition both yes and no. If beato flips them black, they turn white but they were already black as well so on flipping, they turn white as well, it would be a perpetual state without any change whatsoever. Seeing as how absurd this is, I find it heavily unlikely that ryuukishi07 will ever use this to explain in-game events, he simply used it the way it can be used in philosophy, to verify that two opposing truths can exist at the same time without one canceling the other.
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Old 2010-01-05, 02:09   Link #5025
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No, I never said that Beato was the observer. She's the game master for Episodes 1-4, so she knows the entire truth of the board. To her, there are no cat boxes on the island at all, so when she claims that she committed the crimes with magic and presents scenes to that effect, she's lying to Battler.

However, from Battler's perspective, the crimes are cat boxes because he has no means of observing what really happened, and Beato's claim represents a valid explanation. Hence, magic: Battler didn't see it, so Beato can say whatever she wants, provided that it's consistent with any evidence Battler can dig up. Shoulder war towers? Sure, why not? Battler can't prove they weren't there. But this isn't quite the same as the original Schrodinger experiment, in that there really is an objective truth hiding inside the box. The whole "cat box" thing is a metaphor for how things look from Battler's position, not a statement about quantum physics.

When I talked about Beato flipping pieces, what I meant was that since Battler lost the ability to observe them for a long period of time, Beato gained the ability to lie about them with impunity. In other words, they changed from white (observed) pieces that Battler could use to gather information to black (unobserved) pieces that Beato could use to act out her fantasy theory.
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Old 2010-01-05, 02:47   Link #5026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
(yes, I am suggesting that nobody actually died, the whole Ushiromiya family disappeared, he message bottles were a ruse, Maria is the only who died, most likely due to an accident)
[...]
if they did happen, only one of the episodes is real, but most likely the order of killings was a mix between all the games.
[...]
(the future bit, like the metaworld, is just thought up by the survivors, Battler is considering what would happen to Ange, she didn't really come to him in 1986).
I suppose you haven't read Episode 6 yet or you're regarding some stuff that was revealed there as false, because:
Spoiler for Important Episode 6 information:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Actually,
Spoiler for EP 6:
Spoiler for Episode 6 twilights:


While I see where you are coming from, and I myself considered Battler=culprit more then once as the 'only possible solution' at the start, right now there are too many points going against it.
His behaviour in Episode 1 would seem absolutely unreasonable and I still would want an explanation how he managed to orchestrate Natsuhi being killed in front of the portrait...even Nanjo getting killed in Episode 3 is easier to manage than that.

I myself don't even know anymore if the person killing is even responsible for the intricate details that surface over time.
There is clearly a positive event following the family conference, that is money is delivered via an intricate system to the relatives of those who were on Rokkenjima.
We all know that most of the family members are in serious need of money and have no real way out of it unless a miracle (finding Beatrice's gold) happens.
So what if a personX was to approach the family and offer a huge sum of money if the family 'dissapeared'. Everyone could be planing to fake their death's and let the money be delivered to themselves to a secret location (maybe it wasn't even planned that the money would reach the relatives...as we know that the letters arrived in almost horrendously out of the way places at first).
What they didn't know is the fact that there really was a murderer among them (or on the island) who is plotting something on his own. He waits for the right moments to act (after the people of the first twilight have taken their positions) and kills them with their guard let down.

It is still a bit in the raw...so I'm still undecisive if I should follow that thought further, but it is worth a try, after what we saw in Episode 6.
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Old 2010-01-05, 04:16   Link #5027
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Its a blue truth, I needn't confirm that Knox rules don't apply to Ep 1-4 as long as there was no red that declared it applied to them. And I don't recall such red, even within Ep 5, a declaration that all of Knox's rule applied completely was avoided. Only the rules Knox did use in battle are applicable as red truths, and only inside episode 5.
... So you need a red to confirm another one is applied to all games?
I'm sorry to say that, but since when was it confirmed in Episode 4 that, no one would mistake Kinzo by sight, is applied to all games?
All red truths are actually applied to all games, until they have the specific context at hand, not the other way around.
Quote:
Oh btw, what elements from Episode 3 are you talking about? I will adhere to each one.
The number of death stated for the first twilight and final twilight + shannon and kanon mentioned separately.
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
Its solvable doesn't require that Knox's rules apply to the story. Just before that scene, Virgilia (and even miss Dlanor herself) refuses to declare in red that Knox's rules applied to this game. Its funny that you missed that, since the red you quote is from the same scene -_-
You trust their claim that "it may not be applicable to the games" when that statement wasn't in red either.
And despite this, Dlanor still can invoke these rules during Episode 5, breaking Battler's blue and red truths.
And yet, these rules don't apply to the games? I fail to see how it is logical to the slightest, considering how it was the core turnover for Episode 5, and how we all know that ALL gameboards are subject to beato's rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
1) Fine enough. But that still doesn't prove the innocence of any of the piece-battlers because there are more than one battlers.
To add what Lyrical and Chou have said: Virgilia even used the "kun", which is VERY unlikely to refer to a Battler she doesn't know.
Quote:
3)The impenetrable alibi theory has no proof. Battler, detective or not, can kill everyone and still appear normal before the survivors. If this impenetrable theory was true, there was no need to bring in Dlanor to declare that Erika was innocent by his rule that states that the detective can be the culprit. Simply by the existence of the necessity of bringing in Dlanor to prove it for Erika, the game proves that Battler, who didn't have Dlanor vouching him with red, had no such alibi.
You are then breaking the very fundation of the rules that were established from Episode 5.
He is labelized as the detective for Ep1-4 by Dlanor herself, invoking knox 7th... And this was all in red. Are you implying that, Dlanor was foolish enough to claim he is the detective (which automatically grants the detective immunity) for previous episode, just to counter his culprit state in Ep5?
Dlanor could declare that Battler was the detective, despite the context of the first 4 games aren't exactly in favor to that. To put it simply, Dlanor declared in red what was Battler's role during these Episodes...on what premises then if it isn't with knox rules?

Even Bern herself stated that Battler could simply use knox rule to break Beato's closed room arguments back in the previous episodes etc.

I really don't see any logic to apply specific rules on a game that aren't compatible with the previous games, despite all of them are set by beato's rules.
That would be like a kakera in Higurashi without takano using a fake corpse.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-01-05 at 04:33.
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Old 2010-01-05, 04:47   Link #5028
Antera Caramichael
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
All that was said was You (Erika) included, there are 17 people. Whether this applies to all the games or not, we do not know. However, for games 1-4 we have: No more than 17 humans exist on this island.
What I wanted to mean is that it have no incidence on the fact that she was the 18th in Ep5

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Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi View Post
But red can still be debatable and worded differently. Erika can still exist, just not physically and as we see her. In other words, she is a metaphoric representation.

Same thing goes for Shkanon theory. Both Shannon and Kanon can still exist, one of them is just not a physical person. "Shannon" could be Kanon trying to act as Shannon because maybe she died before the incident and he can't accept that. Therefore, he creates a split personality as her so she can "exist." Although it's not really her, that makes it possible for both of them being present in the same room while still in the same body. But everyone else just sees it as one person.

If there are exactly 17 people on the island, 18 subtract Kinzo. Then that means there is only 17. Erika could be the representation of something else versus an actual person. Therefore, the amount of people don't change no matter which characters you add or subtract on the gameboard itself and this allows a "Mysterious Person X."
And my question was this: Is Erika was denied in Ep5 as well? Until it, she is considered as a distinct entity in this one.
The problem of the Sh/Kanon theory is the presence of the detective. We can't give it false clues like the presence of a fake person, it would screw up the entire serie. That is why I support the authenticity of the Parlor scene of Ep5.
And I will finish by saying that the "Mysterious Person X" is impossible because of the violation of Knox Rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
... So you need a red to confirm another one is applied to all games?
I'm sorry to say that, but since when was it confirmed in Episode 4 that, no one would mistake Kinzo by sight, is applied to all games?
All red truths are actually applied to all games, until they have the specific context at hand, not the other way around.
But this red truth was denied in Ep5 by Blattler seeing Kinzo...
And actually, Beatrice insisted when the red truth by saying "this applies to all games!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
The number of death stated for the first twilight and final twilight + shannon and kanon mentioned separately.
I am glad that I wasn't the only one to be tickled by this.
Eva-Beatrice stated after saying Kanon is Dead and Shanon is dead that all those 15 people are dead!

Last edited by Antera Caramichael; 2010-01-05 at 05:08.
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Old 2010-01-05, 05:27   Link #5029
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
What I wanted to mean is that it have no incidence on the fact that she was the 18th in Ep5
Ah... well, there's red for that too, but I won't quote it. Basically, Erika declared herself the 18th guest in red. Then Battler and Beato countered with the "17 people" quote I gave you. The rest is up to interpretation, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
I am glad that I wasn't the only one to be tickled by this.
Eva-Beatrice stated after saying Kanon is Dead and Shanon is dead that all those 15 people are dead!
Teeheehee... define what a person is. For all we know, they could have meant a different array of meanings both times - i.e. back in the 1st Twlight when Beato said that 6 people had died in that room, and then when Evatrice said what you said.

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Old 2010-01-05, 06:57   Link #5030
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Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
What I wanted to mean is that it have no incidence on the fact that she was the 18th in Ep5



And my question was this: Is Erika was denied in Ep5 as well? Until it, she is considered as a distinct entity in this one.
The problem of the Sh/Kanon theory is the presence of the detective. We can't give it false clues like the presence of a fake person, it would screw up the entire serie. That is why I support the authenticity of the Parlor scene of Ep5.
And I will finish by saying that the "Mysterious Person X" is impossible because of the violation of Knox Rules.
But what about EP1-4? How can she count as the 17th person if she didn't exist before and can be taken out of the game with ease? Erika can still be a representation of someone or something. If Kinzo wasn't part of the original 17, than who was?

Alright, lets do a count of everyone minus Kinzo and see what we get.

1. Battler
2. Jessica
3. George
4. Maria
5. Kanon
6. Kumasawa
7. Gohda
8. Genji
9. Nanjo
10. Eva
11. Hideyoshi
12. Krauss
13. Natsuhi
14. Kyrie
15. Rudolph
16. Rosa
17. Shannon (Assuming she does in fact have a physical body and isn't Kanon)

Then since 17 people already exist on the island, that would mean that Erika can't exist physically on the island since she would be the 18th person, but there is only 17 people.

However, although the 17 people is stated in red, red can also be manipulated into something else. We don't know what "people" necessarily means. It could mean the physical human bodies on the island (in which Kinzo and his corpse might be considered if he died fairly close before the murders happened) or if it is just the distinct entities/personals that everyone knows. Therefore, if everyone thinks Shannon is infact Shannon and no one knows of it really being Kanon in disguise, she could be considered and counted for in the people count.
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Old 2010-01-05, 09:10   Link #5031
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Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael View Post
But this red truth was denied in Ep5 by Blattler seeing Kinzo...
And actually, Beatrice insisted when the red truth by saying "this applies to all games!"
Episode 5 didn't contradict it, Battler proved by this red truth that his perspective wasn't reliable, which is impossible for the detective as they are the only character that has to be objective.
It is actually the definition of Knox 9th, which means that Battler lied or did something fishy for this claim.

And no, the "applies to all games" was for Kinzo's life or death status.
The exact line for the other red was "No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!"
This red does not have any precision, and it was yet applicable for Episode 5. Therefore, all red truths ARE general unless they are specific to a game context, such like a death declaration of some characters in a specific game.
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Old 2010-01-05, 09:15   Link #5032
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Honestly though, if a red truth doesn't specifically say it's meant for a specific episode then it's logical to assume it's good for everything. Considering that Red is used to lock down a fact, make it immovable and therefore make it a solid foundation, then it would be prudent to say a red in it's complete and exact for, and this applies to stating how the red text in question applies to the episodes. Leaving a red text open makes it possible to reinterpretation and makes your foundation shaky, as Beato has no doubt learned in Ep3 and 4.
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Old 2010-01-05, 09:29   Link #5033
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
I myself don't even know anymore if the person killing is even responsible for the intricate details that surface over time.
There is clearly a positive event following the family conference, that is money is delivered via an intricate system to the relatives of those who were on Rokkenjima.
We all know that most of the family members are in serious need of money and have no real way out of it unless a miracle (finding Beatrice's gold) happens.
So what if a personX was to approach the family and offer a huge sum of money if the family 'dissapeared'. Everyone could be planing to fake their death's and let the money be delivered to themselves to a secret location (maybe it wasn't even planned that the money would reach the relatives...as we know that the letters arrived in almost horrendously out of the way places at first).
What they didn't know is the fact that there really was a murderer among them (or on the island) who is plotting something on his own. He waits for the right moments to act (after the people of the first twilight have taken their positions) and kills them with their guard let down.

It is still a bit in the raw...so I'm still undecisive if I should follow that thought further, but it is worth a try, after what we saw in Episode 6.
This is actually the premise I started with for my theory regarding the first four games.

It explains why the murders continue despite the epitaph being solved - Beatrice never planned to kill anyone in the first place.

I thought about who could have sent out the letters and why. Presumably, it had to have been an adult, but all of the adults in the family were in financial trouble and it's questionable whether they could afford to put that much money aside.

So I'm working with the conclusion that it was Kumasawa. Her past is largely a blank slate, but we know that Kinzo trusted her enough that she knows about Kuwadorian and likely took care of the Beatrice we are shown in the beginning of episode 3. Also, we know she had a fair amount of notes regarding the epitaph - it's possible she worked on making it, rather than solving it. Of the servants I find her the most likely to have access to some of Kinzo's assets and have the initiative to get a plan moving on her own (which is the main reason I don't see Genji doing it.) However, it's also possible that Kinzo planned to have the family end with him and gave those two the instructions on how to carry it out.

By extension, the person who wrote the letters also wrote the message bottles and the page in Maria's diary. In this way, the delayed method of delivery makes sense to allow time for the family members to find new places to live and notify the relatives who received the letters.

In the case of the message bottles, those were just part of the illusion to fool the outside world into thinking the Ushiromiyas had disappeared.

Maria's diary is signed by both Virgilia and Beatrice, but that doesn't necessary mean that Kumasawa didn't write them as Beatrice and someone else signed the other signature (what would she write anyway? The predecessor Beatrice?) It's also possible that someone else was the person who wrote the letters and Kumasawa was just responsible for making the plan. In that case, it doesn't really matter who wrote the letters, just had to be someone else who knew about the plan and was capable of interacting with Maria as Beatrice.

If Rudolf or Kyrie was in on the plan, then it explains how the letter-writer knew in advance that Ange wasn't going to be at the conference (or it may have been intentional to leave her at home.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
You are then breaking the very fundation of the rules that were established from Episode 5.
He is labelized as the detective for Ep1-4 by Dlanor herself, invoking knox 7th... And this was all in red. Are you implying that, Dlanor was foolish enough to claim he is the detective (which automatically grants the detective immunity) for previous episode, just to counter his culprit state in Ep5?
Dlanor could declare that Battler was the detective, despite the context of the first 4 games aren't exactly in favor to that. To put it simply, Dlanor declared in red what was Battler's role during these Episodes...on what premises then if it isn't with knox rules?
One could argue that the fact that Dlanor was not introduced until episode 5 was a clue that Beatrice did not recognize the Knox rules for earlier games.

Also, I said this earlier, but Dlanor never said that Battler was the detective in episodes 1-4. She said he was the detective "until now." There is a difference - you could also phrase it as "As long as a detective has existed in these games until this point, you have been a detective." For example, the concept that there was no "detective" in episode 1 is not without merit (since Beatrice had no opponent as of yet), and would still satisfy Dlanor's red truth.

For an analogy, let's say I found a new country with a Roman senate as its ruling body. A year later, I usurp power and become the monarch. Ten years later, I say "Until now, I have served admirably as the monarch of this country, but I have tired of the throne and will pass it on to my heir." That doesn't mean the country has always had a monarch.
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Old 2010-01-05, 09:57   Link #5034
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One could argue that the fact that Dlanor was not introduced until episode 5 was a clue that Beatrice did not recognize the Knox rules for earlier games.
Dlanor was brought up by Bernkastel, for her "pro mystery" or rather "strict anti fantasy" strategy, and it it just that Dlanor wasn't prevented by Beato to barge in the game.
The fact that some rules are applied in Episode 5 and 6, but not the previous ones, while they are all based on beato's rules don't make any sense whatsoever.

All Knox rules are based on the premise of mystery, branded just because Erika was the one who finally use them. That doesn't mean they "suddenly got eligible", otherwise, why would any red text becomes applied back and forth?

Quote:
Also, I said this earlier, but Dlanor never said that Battler was the detective in episodes 1-4. She said he was the detective "until now." There is a difference - you could also phrase it as "As long as a detective has existed in these games until this point, you have been a detective." For example, the concept that there was no "detective" in episode 1 is not without merit (since Beatrice had no opponent as of yet), and would still satisfy Dlanor's red truth.
The "until" now is enough to satisfy the whole concept of detective.
Then what, the period of "until now" doesn't exist? Because Erika was the detective at the very beginning of Episode 5 game.
By this claim, there has to be a period where Battler IS the detective, which is claimed in red.

Again, I see no reason to weirdly start splitting Episode 1-4 from Episode 5 and onwards, considering they are all gameboards/kakera based on the premise of a tragedy, which rules were embodied by Beatrice.
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Old 2010-01-05, 10:50   Link #5035
Arkwright
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Dlanor was brought up by Bernkastel, for her "pro mystery" or rather "strict anti fantasy" strategy, and it it just that Dlanor wasn't prevented by Beato to barge in the game.
The fact that some rules are applied in Episode 5 and 6, but not the previous ones, while they are all based on beato's rules don't make any sense whatsoever.
It is certainly an assumption to say for sure that the Knox rules don't apply to earlier episodes, but it is also an assumption to say that they do. Apparently even Virgilia and Dlanor didn't know whether this was true or not, and Dlanor was the one who said the "you were the detective" truth. Why would she have lied saying she didn't know if they applied to earlier games?

It's not as if I particularly think they don't, but I would rather not take it for granted. Most red truths only apply to one game, after all, although those usually refer to specific events. If I were to argue for the "red truths don't apply to all games unless stated otherwise" I could offer a couple minor examples.

No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game. This is stated in episode 3, but in episode 2 Shannon goes to grab a spider web in the boiler room.

After episode 4, Lamdadelta said, "Beato clearly declared, for the first game, that the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed! This breaks Battler's reasoning about the culprit of the Eva/Hideyoshi closed room murder being someone who faked a corpse." The original red truth was, "Regarding unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!" Lambdadelta refers to it as if applies only to the first game, despite the fact that Beatrice never specified that in red.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The "until" now is enough to satisfy the whole concept of detective.
Then what, the period of "until now" doesn't exist? Because Erika was the detective at the very beginning of Episode 5 game.
By this claim, there has to be a period where Battler IS the detective, which is claimed in red.

Again, I see no reason to weirdly start splitting Episode 1-4 from Episode 5 and onwards, considering they are all gameboards/kakera based on the premise of a tragedy, which rules were embodied by Beatrice.
I wasn't saying the period of "until now" doesn't exist, I was saying that we don't know it covers the entirety of episodes 1-4. As I stated, it's possible that the concept of a "detective" only began in episode 2. It's a bit of a stretch, but you could also make the argument that Battler was not a "detective" until the 4th game when Beatrice gave him the ability to use the blue truth.
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Old 2010-01-05, 11:40   Link #5036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkwright View Post
It is certainly an assumption to say for sure that the Knox rules don't apply to earlier episodes, but it is also an assumption to say that they do. Apparently even Virgilia and Dlanor didn't know whether this was true or not, and Dlanor was the one who said the "you were the detective" truth. Why would she have lied saying she didn't know if they applied to earlier games?
Being unsure / not telling the truth doesn't mean she was lying (likewise, she doesn't like her situation, yet she support erika and bernkastel with quite some zeal).
I personally think that there is a certain extent of application of such rules (or perhaps was it a reference to the absolute absence of Knox 5th?).

My own opinion about this little contradiction is that, perhaps, Dlanor didn't want Battler to solely base everything on these rules, otherwise, it might just alienate him more than anything (I think that most people who missed that contradiction with Kinzo would fail to see how Battler can pretend to be the culprit if they were to stick with Knox's rules).

Quote:
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game. This is stated in episode 3, but in episode 2 Shannon goes to grab a spider web in the boiler room.
I really doubt you can take for granted that scene, while we have a dark kanon roaming around. For all intents and purpose, I really doubt it happened like this. Beato confirmed they "saw kanon", but that's that.

Quote:
After episode 4, Lamdadelta said, "Beato clearly declared, for the first game, that the identities of all unidentified corpses are guaranteed! This breaks Battler's reasoning about the culprit of the Eva/Hideyoshi closed room murder being someone who faked a corpse." The original red truth was, "Regarding unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!" Lambdadelta refers to it as if applies only to the first game, despite the fact that Beatrice never specified that in red.
I didn't take it the same was as you did. I considered the "for this game", meaning that during the period they were discussing about game 1, beato said this.
Quote:
I wasn't saying the period of "until now" doesn't exist, I was saying that we don't know it covers the entirety of episodes 1-4. As I stated, it's possible that the concept of a "detective" only began in episode 2. It's a bit of a stretch, but you could also make the argument that Battler was not a "detective" until the 4th game when Beatrice gave him the ability to use the blue truth.
I can accept that perhaps, Battler wasn't the detective in Episode 1 (in the meta world sense, unless this might also be a rehash of the original world, where everyone died). However, until Episode 4 doesn't cut it to me: the whole blue truth thing was just a device set by Beato so they can have a final showdown, due to Ange's pressure.
And the whole detective thing is applied to piece Battler, not meta battler.
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Old 2010-01-05, 13:19   Link #5037
ameskitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
All that was said was You (Erika) included, there are 17 people. Whether this applies to all the games or not, we do not know. However, for games 1-4 we have: No more than 17 humans exist on this island.
Spoiler for EP6:
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Old 2010-01-05, 13:29   Link #5038
Antera Caramichael
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Ah, it change everything!
In other words, he is saying that there are 17 people with Erika!
In other words 16 without her.
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Old 2010-01-05, 13:38   Link #5039
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Ah, it change everything!
In other words, he is saying that there are 17 people with Erika!
In other words 16 without her.
I think what the_rogue is trying to say is that there 17 people WITHOUT Erika. Because the first part isn't red.
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Old 2010-01-05, 13:45   Link #5040
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Oh I'm lost there^^
Isn't he saying by "Even if we include you" that Erika is in the count?

Last edited by Antera Caramichael; 2010-01-05 at 13:57.
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