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Old 2010-01-05, 16:31   Link #5061
ijriims
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, definitely not impossible, but we've been shown that Kyrie is extremely ruthless when it comes to money. That doesn't disprove anything, but it makes it less likely that she would do something like that out of the goodness of her heart. In Sayo's case, on the other hand, you clearly have a very conflicted person with a serious grudge.

Also, are you suggesting that Kyrie is Beatrice? The letters sending that money had Beatrice's handwriting on them. If that's the case, Kyrie must also be the one what met with Maria several times and did magic tricks, among other things. Do you know of any reason Kyrie might have had for doing that?
Well, if you ask me why. Then, it got more complicated and I had to state out my complete theory.

I speculated that the real Beatrice (Kyrie) was the daughter of 1952 Beatrice (a foreigner, Italian I guess, that's why Kyrie's name was so westernized inside the traditional Sumadera family ), who had ran away from her family to Kinzo. What Kyrie had about her mother was only how she taught her about magic and witch.
And she was in lack of mother's love from a very young age.

Maria was in a similar situation, who was also yearning for mother's love, while believing in magic and witch, like when Kyrie was in her childhood. She taught her magic so that she could honour her mother in a way.

Kyrie was the troll Beatrice (EP6) who made all the pranks on Ushiromiya family, while she was searching for Kinzo's gold (1952 Beatrice leaked the location of the gold to Kinzo, so the gold initially belonged to Sumadera family, and it was her gold. She wanted to reclaim it because she wanted to get it back to Sumadera family's hand, not because she really needed it, but because she wanted to clear up her mother's name of being a traitor)

She thought that Kinzo was a liar to her mother who only yearned after her mother's fortunate. She confronted with Kinzo, Kinzo showed her the epitaph to test her. She solved it and claimed the status of the head of the Ushiromiya family as well.

She also located Kwadorian as well, and from there, she knew that she had a sister (1967 Beatrice, the moeBeatrice). She witnessed the efforts Kinzo had been putting in reviving the initial Beatrice. She realized that Kinzo's love to her mother was real and also knew that her sister's love towards Kinzo (moeBeatrice's love towards Battler).

Knowing that none of his offspring was really doing a good job but fights among themselves, Kinzo's last wish was to test them whether they were qualified to acquire his fortune (deeply in the heart, he wanted to reunite the family), but he knew that he would not do it before he died.

Around these time, Kyrie knew from Maria that Rosa abandoned her at home most of the time. Kyrie had no choice but to urge Maria to believe in Rosa's well being. However, the destruction of Sakutarou triggered the complete collapse of Maria's hope on Rosa. Kyrie then concluded that this Ushiromiya family was rigged and only after this she agreed to Kinzo's request to test the whole family, even if it meant to use death to test them.

Battler's sin was his departure and forgot about his promise to Maria that he could come to see her every year. Seeing that Maria was really enjoying with Battler, Kyrie knew that if Battler upheld his promise then Maria could never turn into a dark witch, or at least so quickly. If Maria did not lose all her hope, Kyrie would never agreed to stage such a test for the whole Ushiromiya family.

The disregard of his influence and importance to the Ushiromiya family was Battler's sin.

Kyrie recruited Genji and Shannon to her side. Genji just obeyed his old master's order, while Shannon understood Kyrie's intention and agreed to help her.

------------

Quite a complete theory, I guess.
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:33   Link #5062
Kitsu
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In other words, Sayo always chooses the first twilight completely at random. when she kills Shannon or Kanon, she continues on as the other, and whenever both die, she continues on as Beatrice. For now, let's just say that Kanon and Shannon were both chosen for the first twilight and that this somehow led to Sayo dying as Kanon (there is always a Shannon corpse lying around, so it might be a fake...maybe even Erika's)
As I find this a very interesting thought (especially the thing about Erika's corpse) there is a little problem there. Both Kanon and Shannon once stated that the sacrifices aren't't choose at random. That was of course a magic scene but I would find it a bit stupid to let the characters say that just to mislead.
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:38   Link #5063
chronotrig
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As I find this a very interesting thought (especially the thing about Erika's corpse) there is a little problem there. Both Kanon and Shannon once stated that the sacrifices aren't't choose at random. That was of course a magic scene but I would find it a bit stupid to let the characters say that just to mislead.
Could you point out the scene? Depending on how "magic" it was, may refer to the fact that meta-Beatrice is the Game Master and can choose whichever world she wants. It could still be random for the piece Sayo.

Have I missed anyone's points?
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:43   Link #5064
Kitsu
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Could you point out the scene? Depending on how "magic" it was, may refer to the fact that meta-Beatrice is the Game Master and can choose whichever world she wants. It could still be random for the piece Sayo.

It was the dungeon scene. You know the very suspicious and stange magic talk Shannon and Kanon had. The one in which Shannon said that it was very strange for both of them to survive and talking about how Beatrice like to give them hope etc. During that talk they also mentioned that even if she says the sacrifices are choosen at random they aren't
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:47   Link #5065
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It was the dungeon scene. You know the very suspicious and stange magic talk Shannon and Kanon had. The one in which Shannon said that it was very strange for both of them to survive and talking about how Beatrice like to give them hope etc. During that talk they also mentioned that even if she says the sacrifices are choosen at random they aren't
Ah, perfect. That's the scene where they also talk about previous games, right? So they are talking about meta-Beatrice, not Sayo or the Beatrice personality that Sayo has.
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:57   Link #5066
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Okay, too much person counting discussion. Let's try something new.
Who is the final culprit? Even if Shkanontrice is true and Sayo committed all of the magic murders, that doesn't explain the man from 19 years ago or EP3.

So before I give my theory, I'll name the culprit.
I'll admit I have three things I hate in Umineko theories:
1. Theories which go "Oh, but the red truth really meant this completely different thing so this works blah blah." (A corollary of this is I really hate any theories which target Battler, Krauss, Natushi, and Erika, due to their red truths.)
2. Theories which rely on Unknown Person X, or which attempt to make the culprit anyone but the 17 people we've been dealing with.
3. The Shkannon theory.

To be frank, this theory makes no sense at all from my perspective unless you're only explaining Episode 3, to which I'm completely confused at why you need to needlessly confuse things with Nanjo's granddaughter and not just Nanjo himself. At best, you have the culprit of Episode 3 (whom as most people have observed was probably different than the culprit of the other Episodes), at worst, you have nothing, as as far as we know, all the surviving relatives of the people who were on the island got money, so no one's really suspicious then. Furthermore, you state that Nanjo is nothing like Gaap, so it can't be Nanjo but 1. We know nothing, absolute nothing about the granddaughter and 2. I don't think the same person who is Gaap is Beatrice, so if anything, this rules out Nanjo.

So yeah, I'm completely confused and have no idea how the money can be used to deduce a culprit.
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Old 2010-01-05, 16:59   Link #5067
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'll admit I have three things I hate in Umineko theories:
1. Theories which go "Oh, but the red truth really meant this completely different thing so this works blah blah." (A corollary of this is I really hate any theories which target Battler, Krauss, Natushi, and Erika, due to their red truths.)
2. Theories which rely on Unknown Person X, or which attempt to make the culprit anyone but the 17 people we've been dealing with.
3. The Shkannon theory.

To be frank, this theory makes no sense at all from my perspective unless you're only explaining Episode 3, to which I'm completely confused at why you need to needlessly confuse things with Nanjo's granddaughter and not just Nanjo himself. At best, you have the culprit of Episode 3 (whom as most people have observed was probably different than the culprit of the other Episodes), at worst, you have nothing, as as far as we know, all the surviving relatives of the people who were on the island got money, so no one's really suspicious then. Furthermore, you state that Nanjo is nothing like Gaap, so it can't be Nanjo but 1. We know nothing, absolute nothing about the granddaughter and 2. I don't think the same person who is Gaap is Beatrice, so if anything, this rules out Nanjo.

So yeah, I'm completely confused and have no idea how the money can be used to deduce a culprit.
Umm, did you read my whole theory? ^^
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Old 2010-01-05, 17:05   Link #5068
Kaiba
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Umm, did you read my whole theory? ^^
As far as I can tell, yeah, but I don't get it. As far as I can tell, it's:
In Episode 3, Nanjo's granddaughter disguised herself as Nanjo, ran around and killed everyone. and possibly in the other Episodes.
But yeah, your writing in general doesn't make any sense as I don't understand it.
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Old 2010-01-05, 17:07   Link #5069
chronotrig
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As far as I can tell, yeah, but I don't get it. As far as I can tell, it's:
In Episode 3, Nanjo's granddaughter disguised herself as Nanjo, ran around and killed everyone. and possibly in the other Episodes.
But yeah, your writing in general doesn't make any sense as I don't understand it.
It's based on the Shkanontrice theory. Sayo was the killer, but Nanjo takes over when Sayo dies or can't finish. I think I made that pretty clear:

Quote:
The most simple answer is that there is an entirely different culprit who is using Sayo's actions to his/her advantage.
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Old 2010-01-05, 17:52   Link #5070
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Alright, I'll bite. Here's an alternative non-shkanon theory. This is going to be 1-5 though, as I haven't read enough of 6 to coherently integrate it. There are a few notions taken from 6, but only the ones I've heard about. The theory is not dependent on shkanon, although it can work with or without it. More or less.

And this is just a guess, or an alternative.
Spoiler for Wild Speculation Ensues:

Really, there is only one thing out of this theory that I believe is probably true:

Kinzo's children and their spouses are generally innocent of any murders.
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Old 2010-01-05, 18:26   Link #5071
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@arkwright:
Spoiler for size:

Last edited by Arkwright; 2010-01-05 at 18:40.
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Old 2010-01-05, 18:46   Link #5072
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Spoiler:
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Old 2010-01-05, 18:56   Link #5073
chronotrig
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First off, sorry if I've misunderstood your arguments here. I'll try to address them as I understand them.
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Spoiler for size:
The explosion itself doesn't happen until after the game. I don't think red referring to the game can apply to things outside the game board. Or, you could argue that since the game ends at midnight and the bomb goes off shortly after that, then at the time Lambda says the red, the bomb hasn't yet killed anyone and Nanjo "is not a murderer" (yet).

So there are a few ways to get around this problem.

Quote:
Under your hypothesis, Nanjo's granddaughter plants the bomb. Why doesn't she (say) set it to go off on October 4 at 1 AM, then carry out whatever escape plan she had prepared?
Because she couldn't actually sneak a bomb onto the island. The explosion was caused by gas leaking from the boiler.


And to answer the other questions, give me a day or so. I'll try to make a full theory for EP1.
I do have ideas for all of them.
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Old 2010-01-05, 19:28   Link #5074
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Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for response (EP 6 spoilers):
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Old 2010-01-05, 21:05   Link #5075
chronotrig
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Spoiler for response (EP 6 spoilers):
Spoiler for size:


As for point six, I've changed my mind. Let's say Gaap is Jessica, not Nanjo. There's someone else who holds giving it your all against impossible odds as the highest ideal, who knows all about the truth of the crime, and who is capable of faking the voice of the man from 19 years ago. By the way, whoever is behind the bomb, it seems that their plan succeeds with absolute certainty every time we see it.
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Old 2010-01-05, 21:47   Link #5076
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Hmm... I've been thinking. What if Kanon and Shannon did exist as their own entities before the incidents in 1986? However, say, 1 or 2 weeks before the conference one of them died, and for some unknown reason X, the one that was alive was made to also play the other's role. I think that'd make Shkanon slightly less shitty.
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Old 2010-01-05, 21:55   Link #5077
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Hmm... I've been thinking. What if Kanon and Shannon did exist as their own entities before the incidents in 1986? However, say, 1 or 2 weeks before the conference one of them died, and for some unknown reason X, the one that was alive was made to also play the other's role. I think that'd make Shkanon slightly less shitty.
Let's stop with the personal attacks, shall we? Unless you know all possible Shkanon theories, you can't deny the possibility that a good one exists.

And "no one can take Kanon's name", so it'd have to be Kanon playing as Shannon.
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Old 2010-01-05, 22:11   Link #5078
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Let's stop with the personal attacks, shall we?
What? I'm not attacking any theory, mate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
And "no one can take Kanon's name", so it'd have to be Kanon playing as Shannon.
Hmm... I forgot about that. Additionally, it'd be easy for him to use pads, rather than having Shannon hide her tits (unless those were fake).
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Old 2010-01-05, 23:00   Link #5079
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Alright, I'll bite. Here's an alternative non-shkanon theory. This is going to be 1-5 though, as I haven't read enough of 6 to coherently integrate it. There are a few notions taken from 6, but only the ones I've heard about. The theory is not dependent on shkanon, although it can work with or without it. More or less.

And this is just a guess, or an alternative.
Spoiler for Wild Speculation Ensues:

Really, there is only one thing out of this theory that I believe is probably true:

Kinzo's children and their spouses are generally innocent of any murders.
Spoiler for Speculation discussion:
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Old 2010-01-05, 23:21   Link #5080
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EDITED: 2:00 1-6-10

Okay, here's how you can solve all of EP1 realistically with Shkanontrice + Nanjo's granddaughter as the second culprit (from here)...at least I hope so Sayo isn't aware that Nanjo is the granddaughter in disguise in this theory.

Forgive me for being a bit wordy, but I've included all of my evidence as well. I believe every single point follows naturally from the facts and the assumptions of my overall theory.
Spoiler for EP1 Theory with Shkanontrice/Nanjo:
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-01-06 at 16:32.
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