AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-01-12, 02:57   Link #5301
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
I don't think the pony theory needs a love triangle really, unless I misinterpreted it. I really can't fathom how much of a coincidence it would be if those numbers weren't just off the bank statement and meant Battler kills. My guess is the person who sent the letters out, likely Krauss or Natsuhi, wanted Nanjo investigated by the police. They could have hoped that the police would find out about the letter. If Battler was the culprit, then why did Nanjo and Jessica die?

Well, I think it is common sense that the epitaph is in someway related to Battler's sin. If you think about it, Kinzo might have thought that the secret of Battler's sin is worth the mountain of gold, plus Kinzo is crazy.

Also, Kanon has a twin on the island, you can't ignore it! I will keep repeating it!
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 03:08   Link #5302
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
The first pattern could be a result of the second, since she's only died once at a twilight that normally involves stakes.
Yes, I did think about that. However, in that same game (EP3) everyone else (i.e. 4th Twilight onwards) got staked. It may not mean much. I just wanted to point it out I just find that fact a bit odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
if you switch around the kanji for 1129 it becomes "kills
How does that work?
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 03:18   Link #5303
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Well, I think the pike through the head is similar to the door being left open after Kanon was kill in the first ep. There are very few kills that seemed like they were not prepared for, those two seem like it to me. Rosa was probably pushed onto it. I mean, how many people get strangled bare-handed?
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 06:22   Link #5304
Mirrored
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
I am currently setting up all of the variables for a logic game, unfortunately this is made difficult because Umineko seems to work as a Logic Game of Factions.

There is more than one culprit.
There may even be multiple groups of culprits.
I believe the minimum number of Culprits to be 3, with two together, one alone.

I believe that certain actions determine which faction moves first and who is killed determines response.

Something I'm wondering is:

What murderers change based on the game/situation? It seems certain events can trigger some of them to become active murderers whereas they may not be murderers in other situation.

Who is always a murderer? I am sure that there is one Conspirator X with a Faction that is a fixed Conspirator for each game (the True Cause), whereas many of the murders from then on are conditional.

Each of the characters has people it is impossible for them to kill but that does not necessarily mean they do not participate in the conspiracy. I believe that Conspirator X causes distrust among other groups of conspirators by killing certain targets, whether intentional or unintentional.

So I think a large part of the problem in each Episode is that it has murderers specific to it that vary by circumstance while retaining the same key conspirator.
Mirrored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 06:32   Link #5305
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Well if there are two factions we could separate them, probably, into the Battlers and the Anti-Battlers.
And though the episodes seem murderer specific, we can't really be sure because it could always be one hell of a frame job. IE: Episode 5.

Well let's look at episode 1, while the few survivors were in the study. Why did the letter appear? How did the letter appear? The person who made that letter appear like that was either in that room or in contact with one of the two keys to get inside. Very few people could have done that like Battler, Krauss, Natsuhi, Genji, Kumasawa, Maria, and Nanjo. I heavily suspected Maria of having most letters in her bag from the beginning but they were not particularly labeled it seems, so they were written with very little notice. However, the person did know Natsuhi would lead the family into the study. So, the list would go down to Krauss, Natsuhi, Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo. I would say at the very least that one of those 5 knows who Beatrice really is. I can't think of anymore logical ways to limit the list.

I also think Rudolph is suspicious. The worried about dying phrases he says could just be to make people think there is a reason why he died and that he actually did die. We have not yet been told why he may or may not die so I am a little inclined to doubt that there is such a reason. I think it may just be a ploy to make people think a certain way so that they will be lead into key places that would allow him to cut their numbers.
As specific as the letters seem when they describe an event that just passed, they are actually pretty vague. Like in episode 2 when Jessica bursted into Beatrice's room, she found a letter that described her feelings but in reality that letter should have also worked for George and Battler so the killer is betting on the odds rather than counter on a miracle. In episode 1 in the study, that letter would obviously throw about suspicion and get someone thrown out of the room so it made sense.

Also, anyone read the original Knox's Decalogue for comparison? There are two differences I would like to point out.
1: In the original, Knox's 3rd allowed only 1 hidden room or passageway instead of none.
2: In the original, Knox's 10th specifically mentioned that twins and doubles are forbidden unless they are duly prepared for unlike in Umineko that limits the usage of disguises.
The change to the first is probably to let the readers know that there are no trap doors, for our speculation pleasure. But the second seems like a very interesting change. I could see adding in the word disguise but taking out twin seems interesting.

Case and point, Kanon has a twin on the island.

You know what, I am bored and I got more crap to spew.
People say Ronove is Genji and that is what we are seemingly meant to think. Ronove was supposed to give us a big hint and why would that be? If Ronove was Genji, then in relation Beatrice would have to be Krauss or Natsuhi. However, if Beatrice was Shanon and Ronove was Kanon, then things to me make more sense. Beatrice can control the seven stakes of purgatory which are the adult members of the Ushiromiya family and I bet that Shanon would not mind being the head of the Ushiromiya family. Virgilia would still be Kumasawa and Gaap would be Jessica. But Beatrice's unrefined manners seem more like Jessica, so Jessica and Shanon could be switched and still this would make sense. Ok, it probably would not make sense but you still read it. Let's say Shanon is the Beatrice in this scenario. Shanon is so disgusted with the greed of the adults that she makes the letters in order to see if they would solve the riddle, of course Shanon has already found the gold by now. Shanon would know enough Beatrice lore because Kinzo would spout out nonsensical crap, much like this, while he was drinking.

Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-01-12 at 07:43.
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 07:37   Link #5306
Mirrored
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Hmm, I agree with pretty much all of your thinking.

I think in EP1 Maria has the notes in her bag and likely has them placed by the message contents-- they aren't labeled, but if she had something like a book or separate folders, it would be easy enough for her to pull out the right one.

Does anyone know if there is a complete timeline somewhere that shows all of the murder victims chronologically?
Mirrored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 07:44   Link #5307
Geekodot
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
2. Something Battler did caused the epitaph to be written

But this would only work if the epitaph was meant to be interpreted as a plotline murder and not to find the gold.
I'll show you a theory in which the epitaph is created because of Battler AND is supposed to lead you to the gold.

First, Ushiromiya Kinzo had polydactyli which caused him to have a sixth toe. This was interpreted as a sign of wisdom in the Ushiromiya family and Kinzo was given the headship in order to reconstruct the family after a disaster. Polydactyli was described as something genetic that is passed on in a family, hence why it was normal in the Ushiromiya family. Also, I believe it was mentioned that it is often removed at birth and that the one who was born with polydactyli often doesn't know about it him/herself.

Secondly, Ushiromiya Kinzo has been shown to like people in which he can see similiarities with himself. For example Hideyoshi. Kinzo didn't think much of him at first, but after awhile, he started respecting Hideyoshi because of how he started from nothing and built a business chain. This was mentioned in ep 3.

Thirdly, Battler has been shown to have many similiarities to Kinzo in his younger days. There has also been hinted that Battler's birth has very suspicious circumstances around it, for example the baby switch.

This theory states that when at Battler's birth, there were born two babies. One by Asumu and one by Kyrie. The one born by Asumu died during childbirth, and the one born by Kyrie possibly had polydactyli, however he had it removed at birth. Because Kinzo didn't like his children much, he decided that his heir would be his grandchild instead of any of the children. He also decided to give everything to Battler when he noticed that the child had polydactyli. Kinzo is shown to believe in magic and superstition, so it isn't much of a stretch that he too would believe it to be a sign of wisdom. However, Battler wasn't born in the Ushiromiya family, but outside of it. Kinzo therefore organized it so that the one by Kyrie was switched into the family so that he could recieve the inheritance.

12 years later, Battler doesn't know anything about the circumstances around his birth, not even the fact that he was born with polydactyli. Asumu dies and Battler leaves the family. Now, everything Kinzo fixed in order to make Battler his heir falls to pieces because he left the family anyways. In Episode 2, Kinzo was shown to be angry with the fact that Battler left the family.

Nanjo tells Kinzo that he won't have much time left. This is around 1984-1985. Kinzo now realizes that there is no heir to the family after Battler left. He therefore devices the Epitaph in order to select a new head and to lead them to the gold. The Epitaph was created because Battler wasn't there anymore. Later, this Epitaph is used in a plotline murder, however that wasn't the intention of it's creation.

Also, another interesting thing is the Kinzo in episode 5 that Battler sees. That wasn't Natsuhi's delusion, because Battler didn't know about that and Natsuhi wasn't near. This Kinzo was saying that "out of all people, you were the one who solved it. Isn't this a miracle?" He was clearly saying that the most unexpected person of them all, and yet maybe the most qualified one did solve the epitaph in the end. No such Kinzo appeared when Eva solved it in episode 3.

So in conclusion, this theory states that Battler was intended as the family heir, but he left the family. The portrait and the epitaph was put up to select a new heir, but is used by someone in a plotline murder.

In Episode 5, Battler solves the epitaph and is made the head, even though he left the family. Kinzo calls this a miracle.

What do you think? possible or not? I believe everything I speculated here has been hinted to, if something hasn't please point it out.
Geekodot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 07:47   Link #5308
Mirrored
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Yes, I did think about that. However, in that same game (EP3) everyone else (i.e. 4th Twilight onwards) got staked. It may not mean much. I just wanted to point it out I just find that fact a bit odd.


How does that work?
My theory is that this is a result of the two Factions, who I like to call Fantasy and Mystery.

The Mystery killers do not use Stakes. The Fantasy killers do. Thus the change symbolizes when one faction has destroyed the other.
Mirrored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 07:50   Link #5309
Mirrored
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
I'll show you a theory in which the epitaph is created because of Battler AND is supposed to lead you to the gold.

First, Ushiromiya Kinzo had polydactyli which caused him to have a sixth toe. This was interpreted as a sign of wisdom in the Ushiromiya family and Kinzo was given the headship in order to reconstruct the family after a disaster. Polydactyli was described as something genetic that is passed on in a family, hence why it was normal in the Ushiromiya family. Also, I believe it was mentioned that it is often removed at birth and that the one who was born with polydactyli often doesn't know about it him/herself.

Secondly, Ushiromiya Kinzo has been shown to like people in which he can see similiarities with himself. For example Hideyoshi. Kinzo didn't think much of him at first, but after awhile, he started respecting Hideyoshi because of how he started from nothing and built a business chain. This was mentioned in ep 3.

Thirdly, Battler has been shown to have many similiarities to Kinzo in his younger days. There has also been hinted that Battler's birth has very suspicious circumstances around it, for example the baby switch.

This theory states that when at Battler's birth, there were born two babies. One by Asumu and one by Kyrie. The one born by Asumu died during childbirth, and the one born by Kyrie possibly had polydactyli, however he had it removed at birth. Because Kinzo didn't like his children much, he decided that his heir would be his grandchild instead of any of the children. He also decided to give everything to Battler when he noticed that the child had polydactyli. Kinzo is shown to believe in magic and superstition, so it isn't much of a stretch that he too would believe it to be a sign of wisdom. However, Battler wasn't born in the Ushiromiya family, but outside of it. Kinzo therefore organized it so that the one by Kyrie was switched into the family so that he could recieve the inheritance.

12 years later, Battler doesn't know anything about the circumstances around his birth, not even the fact that he was born with polydactyli. Asumu dies and Battler leaves the family. Now, everything Kinzo fixed in order to make Battler his heir falls to pieces because he left the family anyways. In Episode 2, Kinzo was shown to be angry with the fact that Battler left the family.

Nanjo tells Kinzo that he won't have much time left. This is around 1984-1985. Kinzo now realizes that there is no heir to the family after Battler left. He therefore devices the Epitaph in order to select a new head and to lead them to the gold. The Epitaph was created because Battler wasn't there anymore. Later, this Epitaph is used in a plotline murder, however that wasn't the intention of it's creation.

Also, another interesting thing is the Kinzo in episode 5 that Battler sees. That wasn't Natsuhi's delusion, because Battler didn't know about that and Natsuhi wasn't near. This Kinzo was saying that "out of all people, you were the one who solved it. Isn't this a miracle?" He was clearly saying that the most unexpected person of them all, and yet maybe the most qualified one did solve the epitaph in the end. No such Kinzo appeared when Eva solved it in episode 3.

So in conclusion, this theory states that Battler was intended as the family heir, but he left the family. The portrait and the epitaph was put up to select a new heir, but is used by someone in a plotline murder.

In Episode 5, Battler solves the epitaph and is made the head, even though he left the family. Kinzo calls this a miracle.

What do you think? possible or not? I believe everything I speculated here has been hinted to, if something hasn't please point it out.
I like it. Sounds solid.
Mirrored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 08:28   Link #5310
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
I like it. Sounds solid.
But what was Battler's sin ?

He could not expect Kinzo to create the epitaph after he left, and probably it was apparent to no one that someone would use the epitaph as a plotline of murders, so he could not be responsible for the incident at all. It should be the murderer be held full responsibility at all.

Beatrice told him to repent himself, obviously he had nothing to repent for in this case.
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 08:41   Link #5311
Mirrored
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
But what was Battler's sin ?

He could not expect Kinzo to create the epitaph after he left, and probably it was apparent to no one that someone would use the epitaph as a plotline of murders, so he could not be responsible for the incident at all. It should be the murderer be held full responsibility at all.

Beatrice told him to repent himself, obviously he had nothing to repent for in this case.
In this case, he made the promise that he would return to the island and would not forget about "Beatrice".

Because he didn't return the next few years and abandoned his family, he broke his promise to "Beatrice". She was alone and forgotten, grew scornful, and was abandoned, this spirals into the current situation.

In this case, "Beatrice" is likely either Shannon or Jessica. Or, something I like but would be VERY challenging to prove, is that she is the descendant of the original Beatrice.
Mirrored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 08:41   Link #5312
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Also, Geektodot stated Kyrie's child was switched into the family? You obviously do not know who Mac Daddy Rudolph is. He actually impregnated both Asumu and Kyrie at the same time. This has already been stated by Kyrie since she thinks that bearing Rudolph a child was the reason Asumu was chosen over Kyrie by Rudolph.

And Battler probably did not expect Kinzo to create an epitaph for his sin but Kinzo being the crazy mofo that he is did it to screw with Battler and/or the family. Also, the epitaph probably doesn't pertain directly to the sin but the keyword may be something heavily related to it.
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 08:54   Link #5313
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
In this case, he made the promise that he would return to the island and would not forget about "Beatrice".

Because he didn't return the next few years and abandoned his family, he broke his promise to "Beatrice". She was alone and forgotten, grew scornful, and was abandoned, this spirals into the current situation.

In this case, "Beatrice" is likely either Shannon or Jessica. Or, something I like but would be VERY challenging to prove, is that she is the descendant of the original Beatrice.
Well, in this case, Battler's departure caused Kinzo to write the epitaph which someone used it as a plotline of murders. But Battler's sin was still breaking a lady's heart (Beatrice, and in your case, Shannon or Jessica) for not coming back?

This made Kinzo making the epitaph because of Battler's departure irrelevant. I could say Kinzo just put the epitaph out because he wanted to select a family head otherthan Krauss in his final years, and this does not change the result at all. Beatrice still murdered people according to the epitaph and Battler's sin unchanged.

The whole polydactyli argument just became unnecessary.
__________________
Kýrie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 08:57   Link #5314
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Well, we all have our own definitions of sin. Let's say forbidden love, Kinzo wouldn't see this as a sin but he could relate so he might have made the epitaph to help it out. For example, the love between Battler and Shanon that may or may not exist.
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 13:09   Link #5315
Kaiba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
Quote:
That was the only episode Kyrie would have witnessed people getting their heads blown off, that we know of.
But the attack at the well was NOT the first time that Kyrie saw people getting their heads blown off in that episode, and she reacted completely differently the first time, as I have pointed out.

Quote:
And if you say Shanon might not be dead in episode 1 but Kyrie is definitely dead, you are silly.
There's been TONS of arguments over this, but the big fact still remains that Battler saw Kyrie but not Shannon. Furthermore, if you reference the manga and anime, I would argue that it would be waaaayyyy easier to fake deaths in the way Shannon did than Kyrie (for crying out loud, there's nothing in Kyrie' face).

Quote:
So, saying X or Y character have died during a 1st Twilight is not much of an argument, when it comes down to the possibility of that character not being the culprit, in my opinion. All the same, the only time we've got definite confirmation about deaths in a 1st Twilight was in EP3. The confirmation for the other episodes was rather vague.
I do argue that whomever died in the First Twilight's first episode is innocent, as I can't fathom the idea of the culprit being killed right off the bat. I guess it's possible that whomever died in the First Twilight could have left instructions for his/her accomplices to follow, but I'll admit I don't buy that.

Quote:
resorting to killing all family members were incomprehensible unless they were having revenge on Battler (precisely denied by Virgilia). How could killing people according to the epitaph make Battler remember his sin was also puzzling to me?
My theory is that Shannon has no interest in killing the people. She does it on George's orders, and does what she can to keep Battler alive (this, combined with the fact that he never roams off by himself is the reason he survives to the end almost every time) while hoping he'll remember, betting on a miracle.
Kaiba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 13:33   Link #5316
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Europe, Belgium, Brussels
Age: 27
Huh actually no: having a half smashed head is much harder to fake. That is because you still can recognize the body and unless you have insane skills like hollywood crewmen, you won't be able to create such a level of detail for a corpses like this, let alone in such wet environnement than this one.

Meanwhile, Kyrie's corpse could have been faked, if it wasn't for the red truth.
Klashikari is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 13:46   Link #5317
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Huh actually no: having a half smashed head is much harder to fake. That is because you still can recognize the body and unless you have insane skills like hollywood crewmen, you won't be able to create such a level of detail for a corpses like this, let alone in such wet environnement than this one.

Meanwhile, Kyrie's corpse could have been faked, if it wasn't for the red truth.
You're assuming Shannon's face was even smashed to begin with, that the body in question is even Shannon's, or that there was even a body at all.

Battler never saw it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Case and point, Kanon has a twin on the island.
This doesn't work at all.

Although monozygotic twins are almost genetically identical, they're still two different individuals with two different bodies. They even have different fingerprints... there's no reading of the red that can allow for twins to count as one person.

Furthermore... what about Knox's 8th, in this case? I see no clues pointing to the existence of a twin.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 13:50   Link #5318
CainSonozaki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Someone above mentioned knox's third in the game doesnt allow hidden passages, and i found the red text Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist. But how does that apply to the passage under kuwadorian from Episode 4?
__________________
"Without love it can't be seen.
With love there will be falsehood.
With falsehood comes belief.
Right now the time where magic advents.
I am Beatrice-sama! Ahaha"
CainSonozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 13:53   Link #5319
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Europe, Belgium, Brussels
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You're assuming Shannon's face was even smashed to begin with, that the body in question is even Shannon's, or that there was even a body at all.

Battler never saw it.
What did I assume anyway? I was talking about whether or not a half smashed face is harder to fake than a full one. I never stated that Shannon was confirmed to have a plowed face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
Someone above mentioned knox's third in the game doesnt allow hidden passages, and i found the red text Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist. But how does that apply to the passage under kuwadorian from Episode 4?
Since Erika found it, that means it isn't a hidden passage. Which means the entrance is prolly "covered" by something, but doesn't mean it is hidden.
Or more thoroughly, a hidden passage is defined as a passage that the detective cannot find.
Klashikari is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-12, 13:58   Link #5320
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
What did I assume anyway? I was talking about whether or not a half smashed face is harder to fake than a full one. I never stated that Shannon was confirmed to have a plowed face.
Ah, sorry, I thought you were suggesting that. Should know better.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.