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Old 2010-02-09, 16:27   Link #6001
Smeckledorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
If you consider all of it, I honestly can't find it to be anyone other than Rosa being responsible or at least related. But, it says 'all were killed by other people' and not 'by another person'. But the last red says 'culprit' so I'm unsure how to take this. There must have been multiple people to commit such a crime within the chapel, no?
I think at the very least, Rosa was threatened into helping in episode 2 just as Natsuhi probably was helping in episode 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I still have a lot of trouble accepting that a personality can "die." It only really makes sense in the context of multiple personalities, where it's merely stupid.

If it's a persona (that is, the person who is Kanon is in disguise or merely pretending to be such a person), it can't die unless the person does. Conceptual existences can't be victimized.
Sure they can, if a persona exists as a persona then it can still be a victim. I agree with you though, I do not like it as an answer but for a specific culprit answer to all of the games you have to use it.
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Old 2010-02-09, 17:15   Link #6002
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Sure they can, if a persona exists as a persona then it can still be a victim. I agree with you though, I do not like it as an answer but for a specific culprit answer to all of the games you have to use it.
Do we? It's pretty stupid.

I mean, hell, Jessica mentions being Jessie at school in ep2. Is "Jessie" dead whenever Jessica dies? Does that mean there's two victims, Jessica and the attitude she displays when she's at school? Give me a break.

You can make a made-up persona (not a separate personality, but a facade you put on) a victim by making them seem dead, but you can't make them die. And the red doesn't recognize people who "appear" dead when it says someone's dead.
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Old 2010-02-09, 17:28   Link #6003
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Do we? It's pretty stupid.

I mean, hell, Jessica mentions being Jessie at school in ep2. Is "Jessie" dead whenever Jessica dies? Does that mean there's two victims, Jessica and the attitude she displays when she's at school? Give me a break.

You can make a made-up persona (not a separate personality, but a facade you put on) a victim by making them seem dead, but you can't make them die. And the red doesn't recognize people who "appear" dead when it says someone's dead.
I don't exactly understand your last point but let me explain this to you.
A personality can die. Trends 'die' but they were never actually alive. Permanently abandoning a persona would be the equivalent of killing it. Jessica is still, Jessica at school. A nickname doesn't make you a different person or persona. Jessica is always the way she is and Natsuhi is the one who forbids her from partaking in her hobbies at home.
And again, you are off. The red statements never count the amount of victims. Even if they did, a victimized persona would still be a victim so yea there would be more than one victim. I don't recall red counting the amount of dead bodies which is what you should be referring to, but again I don't think that happens.

Bring proof to the table instead of ideals or leave the topic alone, ideals cannot counter theories. Using an ideal to counter/denounce theories is just a silly gesture. You have already voiced your opinion on the theory and I actually do not care for a clarification on your opinion.
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Old 2010-02-09, 19:21   Link #6004
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I think the burden is on the person claiming idiotic things like multiple personalities, attitudes, disguises, and personas as "people" rather than the person claiming that "people" refers to human beings.

And the number of victims is referred to a few times, such as the ep3 First Twilight.
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Old 2010-02-09, 19:53   Link #6005
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And the number of victims is referred to a few times, such as the ep3 First Twilight.
Yes, I think I pointed that out recently. I don't know about the original japanese text as my computer is being weird.
6 People: Kinzo, Genji, Kanon, Shannon, Gohda, Kumasawa died instantly
Therefore all six of them are people and counted as such. This means that neither Kanon or Shannon can be taken out of the count even if they are a split personality as they are two people (or counted as two).
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Old 2010-02-10, 01:05   Link #6006
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think the burden is on the person claiming idiotic things like multiple personalities, attitudes, disguises, and personas as "people" rather than the person claiming that "people" refers to human beings.
Ah, the sole voice of reason in the wilderness of wild guessing.

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Old 2010-02-10, 04:05   Link #6007
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I can slash any of your reds. Mind this isn't necessarily the truth but just one of the many possible ways.

A servant named Kanon existed in Rokkenjima in the past and he was killed in Jessica's room.
After that Kinzo ordered Shannon, or whatever her real self is called, to act as Kanon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Shkannon was disproved since this red text appeared.




Shannon and Kanon are "victims" and they exist inside the rooms. Therefore that can't be used as a reason to lower the count by one because they both exist.
your red texts are wrong. The screenshot you provided doesn't refer to any number. There are only 5 victims in the rooms, no red states otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Yes, I think I pointed that out recently. I don't know about the original japanese text as my computer is being weird.
6 People: Kinzo, Genji, Kanon, Shannon, Gohda, Kumasawa died instantly
Obviously it is possible that this red can refer to death that happened before the start of the game. Long time before the start of the game as it is proven by Kinzo being there. This red includes the Kanon that died in the past. important: nothing is specified about these six persons actual location


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
EP4 red:
Kanon is dead.

Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.
In short, he was the 9th victim.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!


So The only way that Kanon = Shannon is possible is if Kanon never existed in the first place.
The first two reds are not a problem, Kanon\Shannon was the 9th person to die in the island.

The third one was stated by Lambda. As we have seen in Ep5 the voyager witches can use pretty dirty tricks when dealing with reds.

With the exception of Natsuhi's bedroom Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere

This red implies "a living Kinzo". Therefore Lambda used a similar implicit assumption which is probably: "Among the people existing in Rokkenjima".
Implicit assumptions in red are confirmed even in other contexts for example:

The only way to open and close this door is with the master key

Which obviously assumes "from outside" since all the doors have a manual lock on the inside.

PS: mind that "Kanon" isn't a real name in the first place. So logic like "only the original Kanon can be the person himself" doesn't work because "Kanon" is whoever is given the name. Kinzo gave the name to Shannon and this has nothing to do with "inheritance".
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-02-10 at 04:16.
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Old 2010-02-10, 07:04   Link #6008
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I think at the very least, Rosa was threatened into helping in episode 2 just as Natsuhi probably was helping in episode 1.
Yeah thats true. Well thanks for mentioning it, and thanks to all those who pointed out stuff, I'll go back and continue editing the theory/theories.
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Old 2010-02-10, 07:20   Link #6009
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
With the exception of Natsuhi's bedroom Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere

This red implies "a living Kinzo". Therefore Lambda used a similar implicit assumption which is probably: "Among the people existing in Rokkenjima".
Implicit assumptions in red are confirmed even in other contexts for example:

The only way to open and close this door is with the master key

Which obviously assumes "from outside" since all the doors have a manual lock on the inside.
I think it isn't so much an assumption as a solution restriction. The red is essentially saying, "Although in the real world there may be various means of locking and unlocking the door, for the purposes of this puzzle, only using the master key from the outside is permitted."

Erika's discussion of tools for bypassing inner locks in Episode 6 confirms this interpretation. It is impossible for the closed rooms to have been constructed from outside, but that doesn't deny that such tools exist. It just states that solutions involving those tools won't be permitted in the case of these particular locked rooms.
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Old 2010-02-10, 11:48   Link #6010
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Quote:
The first two reds are not a problem, Kanon\Shannon was the 9th person to die in the island.

The third one was stated by Lambda. As we have seen in Ep5 the voyager witches can use pretty dirty tricks when dealing with reds.

With the exception of Natsuhi's bedroom Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere

This red implies "a living Kinzo". Therefore Lambda used a similar implicit assumption which is probably: "Among the people existing in Rokkenjima".
Implicit assumptions in red are confirmed even in other contexts for example:

The only way to open and close this door is with the master key

Which obviously assumes "from outside" since all the doors have a manual lock on the inside.

PS: mind that "Kanon" isn't a real name in the first place. So logic like "only the original Kanon can be the person himself" doesn't work because "Kanon" is whoever is given the name. Kinzo gave the name to Shannon and this has nothing to do with "inheritance".
Eh so your way for denying lambda's red is something like ''trick x might have been used in the way her spoke'' ?

Sorry but this is as bad as Battler theories in the first games, the red still stands.

It is said in red that Only the person himself can use the name Kanon. Furthermore as long as this isnt denied with a acceptable blue this theory lacks credibility.

Edit: forgot to add: the other reds that i pasted refer to the counting of people and time of Kanon's death. Its not a very strong red but put emphasis in the fact that if Kanon's name cannot be claimed by anyone but him he surely was killed as the 9th victim.

Last edited by Blazemaker; 2010-02-10 at 13:16.
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Old 2010-02-10, 12:29   Link #6011
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Using the trick in speaking, couldn't that red (Only the person himself can use the name Kanon) really mean "Among the people currently on the island, Only the person himself can use the name Kanon."
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Old 2010-02-10, 13:11   Link #6012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YdoUask View Post
Using the trick in speaking, couldn't that red (Only the person himself can use the name Kanon) really mean "Among the people currently on the island, Only the person himself can use the name Kanon."
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!


Exact wording here.
The only (plausible) way out here is to say that Kanon and Shannon were always the same person but this contradicts the Kanon is dead red in the second game

Edit: Another piece of red i found:

They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!
(This is referring to Kanon's appearance in Episode 2.)

Last edited by Blazemaker; 2010-02-10 at 14:01.
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Old 2010-02-10, 14:06   Link #6013
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Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!


Exact wording here.
The only (plausible) way out here is to say that Kanon and Shannon were always the same person but this contradicts the Kanon is dead red in the second game
This is the essence of the Shkanon logic trap.

We could go with Kanon did exist and died before the game and Shannon is posing as him during the events of the 4th/5th. This permits Kanon to be dead in red without contradictions. But it makes it very difficult on Shannon because now we have to explain how someone else can claim his name.

Or we can say Kanon never existed and Shannon has always been him. But if we do that, then Jessica is awfully curiously portrayed, the very notion that Kanon needs to exist is questionable, and anything referring to when he died becomes extremely sketchy. Essentially the only resolution one can fall back on is "personalities can die."

The theory seems to oscillate between these two extremes depending on which is more convenient to defend it. But the two are mutually-exclusive, as Kanon cannot be real and dead and all in Shannon's head.

I'm not sure which works better overall.
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Old 2010-02-10, 15:07   Link #6014
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Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!


Exact wording here.
The only (plausible) way out here is to say that Kanon and Shannon were always the same person but this contradicts the Kanon is dead red in the second game

Edit: Another piece of red i found:

They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!
(This is referring to Kanon's appearance in Episode 2.)
Claim:
  • To ask for especially as a right <claimed the inheritance> b : to call for : require <this matter claims our attention> c : take 16b <the accident claimed her life>
  • To take as the rightful owner
  • To assert in the face of possible contradiction : maintain <claimed that he'd been cheated> b : to claim to have <organization…which claims 11,000…members — Rolling Stone> c : to assert to be rightfully one's own <claimed responsibility for the attack>

No one can claim Kanon's name because it's his alone. But by the definition of claim as long as a person doesn't claim Kanon's name it should be fine. So if, by a stretch, and I mean a large stretch, that Kanon were to give/ loan the name away (Don't ask me why) then it wouldn't defy the red since the name is still his and he can still rightfully claim it as his.

There's no red against a person using Kanon's name as long as they don't claim the name as theirs. Like for say Shannon kills Kyrie (this is only an example) and when asked what happened by the other guests she could simply say:

"I don't know but I saw Kanon go off in that direction."

She never claimed his name, merely used it.
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Old 2010-02-10, 15:27   Link #6015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amegashita View Post
There's no red against a person using Kanon's name as long as they don't claim the name as theirs. Like for say Shannon kills Kyrie (this is only an example) and when asked what happened by the other guests she could simply say:

"I don't know but I saw Kanon go off in that direction."

She never claimed his name, merely used it.
In this context, claiming the name of the said person, is as if claiming they are that person.
Lambda purposedly used this red to counter the argument that "Kanon isn't an exlusive name and can be used by someone else". She basically mean that only 1 single person can use Kanon.
That doesn't prevent kanon to have another name, but any other person that is "not" Kanon "cannot" use his name at all.

Twisting a red text however you want on the definition of a term is imho extremely hazardous and not safe at all: we are dealing with translated picky sentences that are very dependant of their own context.
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Old 2010-02-10, 16:03   Link #6016
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Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
Eh so your way for denying lambda's red is something like ''trick x might have been used in the way her spoke'' ?

Sorry but this is as bad as Battler theories in the first games, the red still stands.

It is said in red that Only the person himself can use the name Kanon. Furthermore as long as this isnt denied with a acceptable blue this theory lacks credibility.

Edit: forgot to add: the other reds that i pasted refer to the counting of people and time of Kanon's death. Its not a very strong red but put emphasis in the fact that if Kanon's name cannot be claimed by anyone but him he surely was killed as the 9th victim.
Frankly I think that is a very plausible assumption, definitely not so far-fetched as you make it sound. Or are you seriously believing that what Lambda was trying to say that no one in the world could claim the name Kanon except that particular Kanon? A red like that isn't credible at all.

It is quite obvious that she was talking about the people in the island and the red is only limited to that.
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Old 2010-02-10, 18:26   Link #6017
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Do we? It's pretty stupid.

I mean, hell, Jessica mentions being Jessie at school in ep2. Is "Jessie" dead whenever Jessica dies? Does that mean there's two victims, Jessica and the attitude she displays when she's at school? Give me a break.

You can make a made-up persona (not a separate personality, but a facade you put on) a victim by making them seem dead, but you can't make them die. And the red doesn't recognize people who "appear" dead when it says someone's dead.
Actually, I do have a question about this...

If a person has two distinct personalities/split personality/whatever, does it mean they could have TWO representations in the Meta-world? One for each side of them, assuming its more than just a "I'm Jessica at home, but at school I'm Jessie!" issue?
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Old 2010-02-10, 18:30   Link #6018
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Actually, I do have a question about this...

If a person has two distinct personalities/split personality/whatever, does it mean they could have TWO representations in the Meta-world? One for each side of them, assuming its more than just a "I'm Jessica at home, but at school I'm Jessie!" issue?
I honestly don't see why it's more than that. Kids acting one way at home and one way at school isn't all that uncommon. A teenage girl won't talk to her parents the same way she talks to her friends.

Creating a persona and being diagnosed with DID is not the same. Otherwise more than half of all teenagers in the world would probably have DID.
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Old 2010-02-10, 19:31   Link #6019
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Frankly I think that is a very plausible assumption, definitely not so far-fetched as you make it sound. Or are you seriously believing that what Lambda was trying to say that no one in the world could claim the name Kanon except that particular Kanon? A red like that isn't credible at all.

It is quite obvious that she was talking about the people in the island and the red is only limited to that.
The fact is that wordplay trick x really doesnt work for anything. Its not a matter of Kanon being the only Kanon in the world or in the island.

We are talking about red. The red says that nobody could use Kanon's name, its a title that belong only to him. So when you say ''Kanon died as the 9th victim'' the only person that could have died as the 9th victim is the real Kanon.

Its simple as that.

Also its specified that all the servants said that they saw Kanon even when he was supposed to be dead, and red says that they wouldnt mistake him for somebody else. So for Shkanon to work, they all had to be in it.

Do you get where im getting at?

Im surely not a Shkanon or Shkanontrice supporter, but if i chose to, i can argument and prove it as a plausible truth. But a plausible truth is just it, a plausible truth.

And if you follow into Shkanontrice this plausible truth leads for something as fucked up as Erika theory about Kinzo banging Natsuhi...which surely isnt the kind of ending i would expect from r07.
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Old 2010-02-10, 19:43   Link #6020
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If you support Shkanon - and yes, I'm going to defend it here for a second - it's easy to get around the Kanon restriction.

There is a girl on the island. She is a servant of the family. She was present six years ago when Battler was around. She presumably went by Shannon. We do not know her real name, but later (as Shannon) she tells George it's Sayo.

This girl later creates a young boy servant named "Kanon." She takes on this role sometimes. She is still the same person. She just happens to be both the servant "Shannon" and the servant "Kanon." She may also be Beatrice.

Thus, "the person himself" is actually the person herself. "Kanon" is just a name belonging to this girl. She can claim it any time she likes, but she can also pretend not to be Kanon as she wishes. However, only she can claim it.

"But in ep4..." you begin. Well, we take it at face value. "Kanon" was the 9th victim. So Shannon - whose body Battler found - was the 9th person to die, since she's the only one who can claim to be Kanon. Simple as that.

Except that kind of wrecks one of the potential "last people alive," but so it goes. There's always Maria.
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