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Old 2010-02-10, 19:59   Link #6021
Blazemaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If you support Shkanon - and yes, I'm going to defend it here for a second - it's easy to get around the Kanon restriction.

There is a girl on the island. She is a servant of the family. She was present six years ago when Battler was around. She presumably went by Shannon. We do not know her real name, but later (as Shannon) she tells George it's Sayo.

This girl later creates a young boy servant named "Kanon." She takes on this role sometimes. She is still the same person. She just happens to be both the servant "Shannon" and the servant "Kanon." She may also be Beatrice.

Thus, "the person himself" is actually the person herself. "Kanon" is just a name belonging to this girl. She can claim it any time she likes, but she can also pretend not to be Kanon as she wishes. However, only she can claim it.

"But in ep4..." you begin. Well, we take it at face value. "Kanon" was the 9th victim. So Shannon - whose body Battler found - was the 9th person to die, since she's the only one who can claim to be Kanon. Simple as that.

Except that kind of wrecks one of the potential "last people alive," but so it goes. There's always Maria.
It is acceptable, as it doesnt dwell into DID or unnecessary things like that.

Yes its kinda fucked up how a girl would like to dress up as a boy for fun and end up building relationships with two persons at the same time (if you count Kanon), but it could work with a good explanation.

You could say for example that Jessica didnt know about Kanon and Shannon dressed up as him to help her friend but it kinda of backfired, or you could say that Jessica knows about Shkanon and asked her to pose as her boyfriend because of the pression of her friends. And George relationship could simply be the true one.

The main problem lies when you add the ''trice'' to the equation.

For Shkanontrice to happen in the first place, even if you disregard DID, as it is utterly ridiculous, Shkanontrice would need to be a VERY fucked up person, and have a good motive for murdering/participating in the murders. Something better than a Pony promise.

She would need to be a person fucked up enough to be able to kill her best friend, the people that were like a family for her all her life, her love interest, her other love interest and even killing herself in the end without remorse.

Then people come and throw goldsmithmind saying that goldsmith raped her and she's problematic because of that....but kinzo is dead, shannon/kanon doesnt have problems in her life, and the motive of the murders is NOT vengeance against the Ushiromiya family....There simply isnt a point, a motive, a reason. This is too messed up.

Also for Shkanontrice to work almost half of the island, or all the servants, would need to be in the killings. For a game that hammered ''without love it cannot be seen'' in our heads i cant really see any love on a ending like that.
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Old 2010-02-10, 20:41   Link #6022
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Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
For Shkanontrice to happen in the first place, even if you disregard DID, as it is utterly ridiculous, Shkanontrice would need to be a VERY fucked up person, and have a good motive for murdering/participating in the murders. Something better than a Pony promise.
Also for Shkanontrice to work almost half of the island, or all the servants, would need to be in the killings. For a game that hammered ''without love it cannot be seen'' in our heads i cant really see any love on a ending like that.
No, for Shkanontrice to work you only need to threaten people and give out false promises. Pony promises are a great tool when you are making people fake their deaths. Think harder Bronameth.
And for the "Kanon dying as the 9th victim." argument, since you all won't give up and just let it be I will stop coming up with any serious arguments and go with the easiest. Battler died last so that leaves 16 other people, Shanon and Kanon would make the number 14-15 so let's say 15.
15-9=6 so I claim that 6 people simultaneously died with Kanon making them all the 9th victim.

Last edited by Smeckledorf; 2010-02-10 at 20:57.
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Old 2010-02-10, 21:23   Link #6023
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
15-9=6 so I claim that 6 people simultaneously died with Kanon making them all the 9th victim.
Among Kyrie's group, he was the first to die!

I would argue a simultaneous death couldn't be "first."
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Old 2010-02-10, 23:00   Link #6024
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
No, for Shkanontrice to work you only need to threaten people and give out false promises. Pony promises are a great tool when you are making people fake their deaths. Think harder Bronameth.
And for the "Kanon dying as the 9th victim." argument, since you all won't give up and just let it be I will stop coming up with any serious arguments and go with the easiest. Battler died last so that leaves 16 other people, Shanon and Kanon would make the number 14-15 so let's say 15.
15-9=6 so I claim that 6 people simultaneously died with Kanon making them all the 9th victim.
I didnt counter you because i think its useless.
If you got so far in ''wanting to believe'' to support personas dying as a good answer you just stopped thinking and nothing i say will prove you that you are wrong.

What i dont like about these discussions (i participate in a great part of these in 4chan) is that most (not all) of the people that support Shkanontrice, simply accept every single thing that the main creators of the theory came up with and dont ever try to adapt it and look for another answers just because its too damn convenient.

Anyway mass threatening doesnt work as easily as you say.
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Old 2010-02-11, 02:42   Link #6025
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Again, I really don't think Ep4 is the deciding 'evidence' here.

I think it's Ep1 and 3.

As the only solution for the corpse count equaling 1 Kanon and 1 Shannon and there being only 1 body is 'everyone is in on it but Battler' (to move the body or lie about what they saw), which is so ridiculously unlikely that it's foolish to even consider it.

Reiterating: We know Shannon was physically dead at the time they found her body. Not only was 'instant death' (unable to move) proclaimed, but later in Ep4 you have the red "the keys were found next to the corpses". So Shannon was a corpse at that point in time.

They then find Kanon's body. The adults moved as a group, and only Kyrie and Rosa were away from that group. The only 'solution' here is Kyrie and Rosa are both the culprits of the first twilight (as they'd have to know the chapel was one of the supposed closed rooms) both picked up Shannon's corpse, took it to an unlocked chapel, deposited it, then somehow went and got it and put it back later. But then, not only is that absurd enough, you have to ask WHY they'd know about Shkanon and what they'd gain from perpetuating it, etc.

Similar situation in Episode 1; Hideyoshi sees Shannon's corpse while Kanon is right there. Hideyoshi sees her face smashed up. That's either one impressive home-made corpse, or Shannon herself.

Of course you can get around all this by just saying they're separate people and Kanon died beforehand. But then of course that conflicts with "The only person who can claim Kanon's name is the original person."



As far as I can tell, both Shkanon and Erika-doesn't-exist are completely impossible. Both seem to be outright contradicted by the red and require stretching the red or reinterpreting the meanings of it.

And using the analogy I've used plenty times before-


I don't think Ryuukishi is actually doing 'it's red and round' and he means an apple (though some would think ball).

I think he's saying 'it's red, round, and has a stem'. So everyone thinks apple. But he means a cherry instead.

So there's something that uses a similar trick (it's undeniable that there's SOMETHING up with Shannon and Kanon, and Erika on the whole is very unbelievable) that we just haven't seen yet.


Unknown cherry X for culprit. (Small cherry bombs?)



EDIT: I want to throw in, at the bare minimum for how many people would have to know about Kanon never existing if we take that route, we'd have like 6 people (Not including 'Shannon' and 'Kanon' themselves). That's almost exactly half the remaining human cast.

Last edited by tcaz2; 2010-02-11 at 02:52.
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Old 2010-02-11, 03:53   Link #6026
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Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
Reiterating: We know Shannon was physically dead at the time they found her body. Not only was 'instant death' (unable to move) proclaimed, but later in Ep4 you have the red "the keys were found next to the corpses". So Shannon was a corpse at that point in time.
A few people have already posted the theory where the victims of the first twilight of the third game were actually acting. The culprit took advantage of this and killed them after the closed rooms were broken.

The first time the adults checked the 'corpses' they were all still alive. After all the closed rooms were broken the culprit killed them all. Then some of the adults went through and checked the corpses again for clues. By the time of the second check, all of them were really dead and that's when the adults found the keys.

I don't think it was ever mentioned if the adults checked each room once or twice. I'll look that up...
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Old 2010-02-11, 04:21   Link #6027
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I don't think it was ever mentioned if the adults checked each room once or twice. I'll look that up...
90% sure that the family immediately holed themselves up in the guesthouse after discovering all the 'corpses'; it also helps that no one ever went into those rooms again aside from George breaking into the parlor.

Actually... why and how did George leave the guesthouse? It can't just have been to molest Shannon's cold and immobile cadaver, right?
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Old 2010-02-11, 04:36   Link #6028
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
A few people have already posted the theory where the victims of the first twilight of the third game were actually acting. The culprit took advantage of this and killed them after the closed rooms were broken.

The first time the adults checked the 'corpses' they were all still alive. After all the closed rooms were broken the culprit killed them all. Then some of the adults went through and checked the corpses again for clues. By the time of the second check, all of them were really dead and that's when the adults found the keys.

I don't think it was ever mentioned if the adults checked each room once or twice. I'll look that up...
It would be unnecessary and kinda overkill you know.
With the boiler room door being unlockable its not even a closed room at all.
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Old 2010-02-11, 04:47   Link #6029
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Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
With the boiler room door being unlockable its not even a closed room at all.
Battler would have to be (more of) an idiot to not know that the boiler room door is unlockable.

I'm pretty sure Ryukishi must have forgot that line from Ep1 about the door. Either way, as has been said, all the rooms in that chain fit Beatrice's closed room definition, so there was no way anyone could have entered the boiler room through that door anyway.
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Old 2010-02-11, 04:51   Link #6030
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually... why and how did George leave the guesthouse? It can't just have been to molest Shannon's cold and immobile cadaver, right?
You're talking about after the sixth twilight right? I think it was a big clue that he only left the room after Nanjo's name was mentioned...
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Old 2010-02-11, 04:53   Link #6031
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You're talking about after the sixth twilight right? I think it was a big clue that he only left the room after Nanjo's name was mentioned...
Damn, I need to replay Ep3... I don't remember that.

So you're implying that George is/was working with Nanjo?
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Old 2010-02-11, 04:53   Link #6032
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Originally Posted by Blazemaker View Post
The fact is that wordplay trick x really doesnt work for anything. Its not a matter of Kanon being the only Kanon in the world or in the island.

We are talking about red. The red says that nobody could use Kanon's name, its a title that belong only to him. So when you say ''Kanon died as the 9th victim'' the only person that could have died as the 9th victim is the real Kanon.

Its simple as that.

Also its specified that all the servants said that they saw Kanon even when he was supposed to be dead, and red says that they wouldnt mistake him for somebody else. So for Shkanon to work, they all had to be in it.

Do you get where im getting at?

Im surely not a Shkanon or Shkanontrice supporter, but if i chose to, i can argument and prove it as a plausible truth. But a plausible truth is just it, a plausible truth.

And if you follow into Shkanontrice this plausible truth leads for something as fucked up as Erika theory about Kinzo banging Natsuhi...which surely isnt the kind of ending i would expect from r07.
First I wouldn't bet on the "wordplay X" doesn't work, you might be surprised. After all we have been presented with a logic problem that states a big cheese is involved and the "awesome" solution entails a paperthin slice of cheese. If such a thing is a considered valid nothing can surprise me anymore.

Second The case I presented is not really a wordplay. Basic assumptions in the reds are a given fact. I have already talked about the basic assumption behind the "doors that can only be opened with a key".
For what concerns Battler and the setting of the game there is really only one Kanon, there's no pointing in calling out for a Kanon that exists or existed outside this Rokkenjima.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If you support Shkanon - and yes, I'm going to defend it here for a second - it's easy to get around the Kanon restriction.

There is a girl on the island. She is a servant of the family. She was present six years ago when Battler was around. She presumably went by Shannon. We do not know her real name, but later (as Shannon) she tells George it's Sayo.

This girl later creates a young boy servant named "Kanon." She takes on this role sometimes. She is still the same person. She just happens to be both the servant "Shannon" and the servant "Kanon." She may also be Beatrice.

Thus, "the person himself" is actually the person herself. "Kanon" is just a name belonging to this girl. She can claim it any time she likes, but she can also pretend not to be Kanon as she wishes. However, only she can claim it.

"But in ep4..." you begin. Well, we take it at face value. "Kanon" was the 9th victim. So Shannon - whose body Battler found - was the 9th person to die, since she's the only one who can claim to be Kanon. Simple as that.

Except that kind of wrecks one of the potential "last people alive," but so it goes. There's always Maria.
This is a clean logic but that doesn't explain how was it possible for Beatrice to state that six people have died. Actually there is even a better case. That's when Eva Beatrice states that 3 persons are alive and 15 persons have died.

Unless this is something ridiculous as "well I was just talking about 15 (or 6) random people in the world" or "personalities count as people", you need to have a dead Kanon in the picture... or that there have really been 17 people in the island all along.

Funny how our roles reversed...
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Old 2010-02-11, 05:09   Link #6033
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Damn, I need to replay Ep3... I don't remember that.

So you're implying that George is/was working with Nanjo?
The line where it said he went to visit Nanjo first was:
"I tried visiting Doctor Nanjo's room and asking whether he needed more coffee, but he said he didn't need any more either..."

"getting coffee" could be code for "planning the murders"

I could be wrong though...
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Old 2010-02-11, 05:51   Link #6034
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Battler would have to be (more of) an idiot to not know that the boiler room door is unlockable.

I'm pretty sure Ryukishi must have forgot that line from Ep1 about the door. Either way, as has been said, all the rooms in that chain fit Beatrice's closed room definition, so there was no way anyone could have entered the boiler room through that door anyway.
The problem is that its never stated in red ''All the rooms fit Beatrice's closed room definition'', just in white. So it's kinda dubious anyway. And i would find it strange for Ryuukishi to forgot a detail like that.

Another solution would be the one of the letter to have been slipped out by one of the adults as it is theorized in blue by Battler and accepted by Beatrice...This closed room isnt a hard one at all.

Quote:
First I wouldn't bet on the "wordplay X" doesn't work, you might be surprised. After all we have been presented with a logic problem that states a big cheese is involved and the "awesome" solution entails a paperthin slice of cheese. If such a thing is a considered valid nothing can surprise me anymore.

Second The case I presented is not really a wordplay. Basic assumptions in the reds are a given fact. I have already talked about the basic assumption behind the "doors that can only be opened with a key".
For what concerns Battler and the setting of the game there is really only one Kanon, there's no pointing in calling out for a Kanon that exists or existed outside this Rokkenjima.
So i could say that Gohda is the culprit. he used method x of killing, for the reason x and never died in any of the scenarios because trick x is used whenever Beatrice states he is dead in red.

The problem doesnt lie in the possibility of existing a unknown trick in the way lambda speaks but in the fact that you cant use this possibility as evidence. Red is there to avoid this kind of thing, not to be ignored with the very reason of it existing.

If you point a plausible way of Kanon's name being clamed by Shannon bipassing this red and without implying that they were always the same person i would be more than happy. I want to deny Shkanontrice, but most of all i want to deny this DID cancer that people keep on insisting.

But trick x really doesnt work.

Anyway for making this post a little more useful i would like to propose a discussion about a detail that rised in my mind:

Firstly this is assuming that in episode 4, in the days of the serial murders, Shannon and Kanon are the same person

Battler meets someone that claims to be Beatrice after both phone calls of Jessica, Kyrie and the ''Beatrice'' herself.

In these phone calls its implied that there are only four human survivors in the island: The unknown person calling herself Beatrice, Kinzo, Battler and Maria.

Kinzo is dead. So it falls to three people.


Obviously as EP 4 is full of tricks you can simply deny most of the deaths. Until the box is open we cannot know if the cat is dead or alive, and Battler only sees the corpses of all the persons in the island after meeting with Beatrice and being the one lone survivor.

But here lies some problems:
Both Kyrie and Jessica tells Battler not only how they will die but how all other people on the island died and how their corpses would be found, if they didnt die yet how would they know about that?

Its stated in red that kanon was the 9th victim so he must have been killed after 8 people were already dead.

When Battler is heading to meet Beatrice he finds George, Kumasawa and Gohda dead bodies, so as long as the detective authority stands all of then were already dead when Battler met Beatrice.

If you imply that all the 6 people from the first twilight died before that, as long as math stands it would be impossible for Shkanontrice to happen(and appear before Battler) as there would be 9 dead victims, and kanon/shannon MUST die right after the 8th one.

So the only way out of this mess (while mantaining Shkanontrice) is if at least two people from the first twilight kills(or one person + Jessica) werent already dead, and all the people of Kyrie's supposed group including herself were still alive at this point. but even so Kyrie knew how every one of them would die and how their corpses would be found, also its impossible for Shannon be the last person to die using the suicide-in-front-of-the-well-trick, as she's the 9th victim alongside with Kanon.

So whoever was the last one to die would need to dispose of the suicide weapon in another way.

So well...i posted it in 4chan and nobody could find a answer for this mess, guess you guys could have a try. Remembering that ''Persona died'' isnt a good answer.
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Old 2010-02-11, 06:05   Link #6035
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The line where it said he went to visit Nanjo first was:
"I tried visiting Doctor Nanjo's room and asking whether he needed more coffee, but he said he didn't need any more either..."

"getting coffee" could be code for "planning the murders"

I could be wrong though...
My understanding was that Nanjo urged George to see Shannon's body since after police came, he could not do so. Nanjo offered to help him to close the window after he leaped out through it.

----------------------------------------

Crazy speculation time:

There are always puzzles on why Shannon and Kanon got taken into Rokkenjima so early (6 years old and 13), and their repeated saying they were just furnitures even in front of Battler and other people. Now I have come up with some crazy idea.

I suppose Shannon and Kanon were children of Genji, not that Genji had a wife though, I meant Shannon and Kanon were just product of Kinzo's method to revive Beatrice by combining Genji's sperm (Kinzo would not do so as 1967 Beatrice was his daughter, but most because Genji had a better body than Kinzo as Kinzo knew he had a serious disease) with 1967 Beatrice's egg (frozen and kept). That's why Shannon and Kanon had been always saying they were furniture, since they were not born from love but just experiment products, that's why they always deemed themselves as less than humans. Genji was the biological father of them so they were always following his orders, and also reason why they were adopted into Ushiromiya family so early, and also the frail body of Kanon and seemlying visal impairment (EP2) because he had some genetical defection from the in vitro fertilization. The baby 19 years ago was Kinzo's first successfully produced child through in vitro fertilization, however Natsuhi caused his demise and Kinzo laughed in sadness because he thought that the fate has been trying to stop him from keeping Beatrice's offspring in the world.

The major problem was obviously in vitro fertilization was done first in 1973. Again, I believe it was the reason why EP3 and EP5 kept on emphasizing how the siblings think their father who could do what normal people could not. The foreshadowing was here. And Ryukishi07 could argue that most of these first instance was not performed previously not merely because of technological constraint but also ethically implication, however Kinzo was free of most of these ethically consideration. Therefore, with his immense wealth, his unbelievable willpower, his strong desire to resurrect 1967 Beatrice and lack of ethical concerns, he could have arguably achieved these breakthrough a few years earlier than the history records.

Hints are from EP6:

Spoiler for EP6:


Something even more crazier :

Then I think back from the beginning scene of EP1, Kinzo said he needed to accomplish something before he was dead, now we knew he was already dead and EP5 portrayed him as dying in sleep. So I suspect what he was trying to finish was already done such that he passed away in peace.

What he was trying to do in 1985 or 1986? I think it was human cloning, which was already proposed as possible in 1960s. Now let's think about who Ange really saw as Eva on 1998's Rokkenjima...
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Old 2010-02-11, 06:07   Link #6036
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If you point a plausible way of Kanon's name being clamed by Shannon bipassing this red and without implying that they were always the same person i would be more than happy. I want to deny Shkanontrice, but most of all i want to deny this DID cancer that people keep on insisting.
As I said, Kanon is a name that was given to a servant by Kinzo. If Kinzo gave the name Kanon to a servant X in the past and then he gave the name Kanon to Shannon in more recent times, by what logic you claim that the first one has more rights to be called Kanon than the second one?
The first Kanon doesn't need to be Shannon's little brother for this to work, you just need a random servant named Kanon in the past.


Quote:
So well...i posted it in 4chan and nobody could find a answer for this mess, guess you guys could have a try. Remembering that ''Persona died'' isnt a good answer.
You go by a lot of questionable assumptions in my opinion. First off Battler might have an objective perspective but nothing says that he has superpowers that allow him to definitely know when a body is a dead body just by looking at them.

- It is by no mean necessary that at the time Beatrice talks to Battler they were all dead except 3 people.
- Jessica explained in detail how she would die and certainly she wasn't dead so you have this problem about someone knowing beforehand how people will die in any case. This can be solved with the theory that there is a big conspiracy against Battler leading him to believe a mass murder is occurring but they are all just faking it... and then a real killer kills them all taking advantage of the situation.
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Old 2010-02-11, 08:58   Link #6037
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There are always puzzles on why Shannon and Kanon got taken into Rokkenjima so early (6 years old and 13), and their repeated saying they were just furnitures even in front of Battler and other people. Now I have come up with some crazy idea.


I suppose Shannon and Kanon were children of Genji, not that Genji had a wife though, I meant Shannon and Kanon were just product of Kinzo's method to revive Beatrice by combining Genji's sperm (Kinzo would not do so as 1967 Beatrice was his daughter, but most because Genji had a better body than Kinzo as Kinzo knew he had a serious disease) with 1967 Beatrice's egg (frozen and kept). That's why Shannon and Kanon had been always saying they were furniture, since they were not born from love but just experiment products, that's why they always deemed themselves as less than humans. Genji was the biological father of them so they were always following his orders, and also reason why they were adopted into Ushiromiya family so early, and also the frail body of Kanon and seemlying visal impairment (EP2) because he had some genetical defection from the in vitro fertilization. The baby 19 years ago was Kinzo's first successfully produced child through in vitro fertilization, however Natsuhi caused his demise and Kinzo laughed in sadness because he thought that the fate has been trying to stop him from keeping Beatrice's offspring in the world.

The major problem was obviously in vitro fertilization was done first in 1973. Again, I believe it was the reason why EP3 and EP5 kept on emphasizing how the siblings think their father who could do what normal people could not. The foreshadowing was here. And Ryukishi07 could argue that most of these first instance was not performed previously not merely because of technological constraint but also ethically implication, however Kinzo was free of most of these ethically consideration. Therefore, with his immense wealth, his unbelievable willpower, his strong desire to resurrect 1967 Beatrice and lack of ethical concerns, he could have arguably achieved these breakthrough a few years earlier than the history records.
How is the first part a puzzle? I'm pretty sure 2 mentions that Kinzo did this regularly in employing servants, and what's strange about Shannon is the not the age that she started working, but rather the fact that she's been working for so long. And given the indoctrination which goes on at the household, it's logical that they would refer themselves as furniture. So what's odd here?

Furthermore, does that part help us solve anything in general? Okay, so Genji is possibly Shannon and Kannon's father. So?

Quote:
What he was trying to do in 1985 or 1986? I think it was human cloning, which was already proposed as possible in 1960s. Now let's think about who Ange really saw as Eva on 1998's Rokkenjima...
My God, will the cloning theories die already?
To argue that Kinzo had a cloning machine is from my perspective not very different from arguing that he could turn himself into mist or small bombs - a cloning machine is from my persective a major violation of Knox's 4th, and falls under the problem of that any sufficiently advanced technology can substitute for magic.

Quote:
As I said, Kanon is a name that was given to a servant by Kinzo. If Kinzo gave the name Kanon to a servant X in the past and then he gave the name Kanon to Shannon in more recent times, by what logic you claim that the first one has more rights to be called Kanon than the second one?
The first Kanon doesn't need to be Shannon's little brother for this to work, you just need a random servant named Kanon in the past.
I think we have a massive difference with how we're interpreting the red. From my perspective, the red, unless stated otherwise, refers more or less to the gameboard, otherwise you really could pull the retarded trick of "When I said Rosa, I meant some Rosa who lives in Nagoya." Therefore, when Lambda states a different person cannot claim his name than Shannon or Genji or any of the seventeen cannot claim it. Even if there is some mysterious servant X of the past who had the same name (and we have no evidence of this), it doesn't work, as he is not on the gameboard.
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Old 2010-02-11, 09:59   Link #6038
Jan-Poo
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
I think we have a massive difference with how we're interpreting the red. From my perspective, the red, unless stated otherwise, refers more or less to the gameboard, otherwise you really could pull the retarded trick of "When I said Rosa, I meant some Rosa who lives in Nagoya." Therefore, when Lambda states a different person cannot claim his name than Shannon or Genji or any of the seventeen cannot claim it. Even if there is some mysterious servant X of the past who had the same name (and we have no evidence of this), it doesn't work, as he is not on the gameboard.
I think it is a good assumption and that is what I was talking about concerning Lambda's red text. So the problem is with.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

Because the "Kanon" in this sentence can only refer to the Kanon in the gameboard and not not to any Kanon of the past. However isn't Kinzo's presence here a violation of the basic assumption? He might be physically somewhere in Rokkenjima as a corpse, but his death is an event that lies outside of the boundaries of the gameboard. And the next red specifically refers to the act of dying:

The 6 people died instantly!
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Old 2010-02-11, 10:24   Link #6039
tcaz2
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
A few people have already posted the theory where the victims of the first twilight of the third game were actually acting. The culprit took advantage of this and killed them after the closed rooms were broken.

The first time the adults checked the 'corpses' they were all still alive. After all the closed rooms were broken the culprit killed them all. Then some of the adults went through and checked the corpses again for clues. By the time of the second check, all of them were really dead and that's when the adults found the keys.

I don't think it was ever mentioned if the adults checked each room once or twice. I'll look that up...
Not possible. We saw when they broke in and found Shannon's corpse and the key next to her. That's the only one we DO see, but it's all that's needed to cast extreme doubt on the Shkanon theory.
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Old 2010-02-11, 11:01   Link #6040
ijriims
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Furthermore, does that part help us solve anything in general? Okay, so Genji is possibly Shannon and Kannon's father. So?


My God, will the cloning theories die already?
To argue that Kinzo had a cloning machine is from my perspective not very different from arguing that he could turn himself into mist or small bombs - a cloning machine is from my persective a major violation of Knox's 4th, and falls under the problem of that any sufficiently advanced technology can substitute for magic.
Well, you can disregard the cloning part if you want, but to give you some fact, some of the earliest recorded cloned animals were from 1952(frog), 1963(asian carp), 1986(mice), etc. It is not as futuristic as it sounded even in 1986. Though successful human cloning is definitely not known even in 2010, one needed to consider IF resource has been dedicated into research of human cloning, human cloning should have been accomplished a lot earlier.


On what Shannon and Kanon being Genji's biological children could bring to our discussion, it means

1. Kanon could not be the baby from 19 years ago, nor could he be the son of Rudolf and Asumu. And now their background has been clear.

2. It gave the reason why Shannon and Kanon would assist Genji and Kinzo even if it was about murdering, since Genji was their father and they owned everything to Genji and Kinzo, otherwise they would not exist from the beginning.

3. It just made sense of Shannon and Kanon's behaviour and beliefs, on why they thought so lowly of themselves before they met their loves.
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