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Old 2010-02-12, 08:25   Link #6081
Dlanor A. Knox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
If Battler's sin is killing his grandfather I will never say anything bad about Umineko ever again.
I dont think..I'm SURE that he killed Kinzo, because he died before the meeting before the last one... (ok that sounds weird but, yeah.. uhm...you get it right ^^;
so that isnt 6 years since there is a meeting every year.
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Old 2010-02-12, 09:33   Link #6082
Ronove
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Hmm... just to be clarified on the mysteries here:

1) Are double-bodies even allowed or possible at that day and time?

2) In Episode 1; 1st Twilight, can anyone explain the key mystery? If the culprit were pretending to be dead inside the Warehouse, then how can they put the key back? Unless it's a body-double, which is hard to explain.
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Old 2010-02-12, 09:39   Link #6083
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Ah... yes. For another thought, does the One-Winged Eagle have ANY signifigance regarding the epitaph or mystery?

When I first started this game out, I was expecting some deep mysteries in the symbol, the epitaph, etc. etc.

I don't suppose if we play around the One-Winged Eagle (the head, the leg, the chest. . .) along with the epitaph, any clues? Just a thought.
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Old 2010-02-12, 10:28   Link #6084
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Ah... yes. For another thought, does the One-Winged Eagle have ANY signifigance regarding the epitaph or mystery?

When I first started this game out, I was expecting some deep mysteries in the symbol, the epitaph, etc. etc.

I don't suppose if we play around the One-Winged Eagle (the head, the leg, the chest. . .) along with the epitaph, any clues? Just a thought.
This is the gold piece Krauss showing to Natsuhi in EP1 in the anime



This is Nazi Party's Insignia - Parteiadler:



Can you think of anything now?
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Old 2010-02-12, 11:11   Link #6085
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
This is Nazi Party's Insignia - Parteiadler:
Oh, lord. Well, that explains where all the Nazi gold went.
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Old 2010-02-12, 11:57   Link #6086
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
This is Nazi Party's Insignia - Parteiadler:
Damn. Nice catch, ijriims.
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Old 2010-02-12, 12:22   Link #6087
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Red or white, it shouldn't matter.

Red has never been simply about "giving clues", it's always been about "giving clues in an obfuscating manner". It's mentioned that the witch side intentionally words red text in such a way that it can have multiple interpretations; anything else would be making the human side too dependent on the red and not on their own thinking.

Because of this, I don't see anything wrong with red text referring to "that body over there that's pretending to be dead" as a "corpse"; after all, that's what the people who originally discovered it thought it was.

And besides, after that logic error business and Ep6's final red, I don't think we should be even considering that red text is anywhere near "objective unambigous truth".
That's not the point. The point is, for the supposed 'true' red text, it's changing a whole word to mean something different you'd never get. You can't DO that with a true statement, and it's never been the case before that they've changed a word that explicitly means something to something else.

Again, it also opens up cans of worms like 'who said the letter is a letter' etc. Red text doesn't work as a literary device if it doesn't do what you say it does. Ryuukishi knows this, and has, up until Episode 6, not resorted to tricks with it where something actually means something completely different.

I'm not referring to 'persons' with this, btw, because as much as I hate to admit it, 'person' does refer to 'personality', not the body of a human.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This is the sort of thing I meant when I said "reactionary". You should have SEEN /jp/ after spoilers for Ep6 started coming out... the sheer amount of venom being thrown around was uncanny, even for a 4chan board.

Again, I'm not saying you or anyone on this board thinks like this, but I get the feeling that a lot of the reason animosity is directed at the Shkannon theory is because it breaks the fantasies of a lot of hardcore shippers. People didn't stop to think whether it was true or not. They either blindly accepted it and raged about it, or rejected it and raged about it.
Partly. It destroys a lot of character development. But what I mostly don't like is that it's taking over the whole freaking Umineko reading internet and it makes no logical sense at all other than getting around the red text. It's not a viable 'trick' other than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
]Well, like Jan-Poo says, people said this about Kinzo, too... and oh look, there WAS a conspiracy.
There is a very big difference there, though. The people in on the Kinzo conspiracy are logical accomplices to it. The required people 'in on' the Shkanon conspiracy include people like Kyrie, Rosa, and Hideyoshi at this point. As I said, it goes to approximately half (more, maybe) of the human characters in the story.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
There isn't. It's stupid and illogical. I admit that and I would honestly prefer if it wasn't true.

And yet. Replaying the first part of Ep2... some things just seem to fit.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised at all if Shkannon turned out to be the 'answer'. Disappointed, but unsurprised.
I fail to see how things 'fit'. In fact, several things just plain don't. For instance, Shannon and Jessica's conversation about Kanon going to the school festival becomes incredibly awkward if Kanon is just another personality of Shannon. To add to this, Jessica is suppose to KNOW that Shannon and Kanon are the same person because she's shown in a flashback with them in Ep6. It makes the whole conversation superfluous. There's many more things that just don't match, character development-wise, that I can't recall right now, but I'll definitely post about after I re-read Ep2 again.
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Old 2010-02-12, 12:34   Link #6088
ameskitty
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
1) Kanon's odd reaction the first time he sees Battler (EP1)
If you're talking about "boku datte", isn't that his reaction to Jessica backing him up? Call me naive but I thought EP6 pretty well exposed that as a deliberate red herring with all the emphasis on that phrase.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
9) "Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice share the same soul"
Where exactly is this stated? I don't remember this O_o.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
7) "If Shannon leaves the island Kanon can't remain"
8) "Either Shannon's love or Kanon's love can be fulfilled, there's no way for both of them to exist"
10) "Kanon is a hindrance to Shannon, Shannon is a hindrance to Kanon, one of them must die"
The simplest solution to 8 and 10 is that Kanon and Shannon have opposite, conflicting motives in their relationships and that the issue has absolutely nothing to do with the people themselves. This motive might also explain the 7th one. Most obvious motive is the inheritance, but the TIPS with Kanon not caring about spending a ton of money on a throwaway gift indicate that this is also the least likely issue. Thinking in this direction might yield some interesting things, but I'm stuck as to where to start. Maybe it's actually something between George and Jessica?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
This scene, to me, at least proves one thing: Even if Kanon isn't Shannon, 'he' probably isn't male. He has absolutely no upper body strength.
I used to work retail and knew some guys around that age who had trouble carrying those heavy, bulky dog food bags (not to mention myself but I don't think that counts as proof :P). It wasn't even the weight really - it's just that they were too small to handle the bulk.

A small fertilizer bag, yeah, he should be able to handle that, but if it was a bigger and heavier bag (which it likely was because of the size of that garden) it's realistic that he could be having problems, especially if he's got a "late bloomer" build.

That and I don't see any reason at all for him to be a girl, honestly . Unless Ryu just loves yuri that much. (or Shkanon, like you said)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
I fail to see how things 'fit'. In fact, several things just plain don't. For instance, Shannon and Jessica's conversation about Kanon going to the school festival becomes incredibly awkward if Kanon is just another personality of Shannon. To add to this, Jessica is suppose to KNOW that Shannon and Kanon are the same person because she's shown in a flashback with them in Ep6. It makes the whole conversation superfluous. There's many more things that just don't match, character development-wise, that I can't recall right now, but I'll definitely post about after I re-read Ep2 again.
I honestly can't imagine that Jessica wouldn't have had a conversation with both of them at some point or went to their room or the servant's quarters when both of them were in it to bother one of them. Plus Jessica knows that they're very close so she'd have to have seen them together at some point otherwise it'd be kind of strange. In my eyes it's either true and she knows it or it's not true at all. (same goes for Krauss and Natsuhi and the other servants, for even more obvious reasons)

Then again supposedly she doesn't know that Kinzo is dead, but that's different because she doesn't really give a crap about him.
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Last edited by ameskitty; 2010-02-12 at 14:14. Reason: was going to post this earlier
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Old 2010-02-12, 14:07   Link #6089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
That's not the point. The point is, for the supposed 'true' red text, it's changing a whole word to mean something different you'd never get. You can't DO that with a true statement, and it's never been the case before that they've changed a word that explicitly means something to something else.

Again, it also opens up cans of worms like 'who said the letter is a letter' etc. Red text doesn't work as a literary device if it doesn't do what you say it does. Ryuukishi knows this, and has, up until Episode 6, not resorted to tricks with it where something actually means something completely different.

I'm not referring to 'persons' with this, btw, because as much as I hate to admit it, 'person' does refer to 'personality', not the body of a human.
I dont quite get what you mean.
If you are talking about the definition of the word ''person'' we would need a translation to clarify the applications in japanese of the corresponding word.

But as far as i know, both Shannon and Kanon are counted as differente ''people'' nor ''persons'', and ''personas'' cant really die or be counted, because its plain obvious that in Shkanontrice if they counted the Kanon personality they would have to count the ''Beatrice'' personality too...
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Old 2010-02-12, 14:25   Link #6090
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Hmm... just to be clarified on the mysteries here:

1) Are double-bodies even allowed or possible at that day and time?

2) In Episode 1; 1st Twilight, can anyone explain the key mystery? If the culprit were pretending to be dead inside the Warehouse, then how can they put the key back? Unless it's a body-double, which is hard to explain.
I promised myself I wouldn't come to this thread quite yet, but... oh well.

Answer for #2:

You don't even need a body double!

It is easy to explain if the (living) person inside of the garden shed was not working alone. In other words, person A (Shannon?) was locked alive in the shed and accomplice B puts the key away. Person A's death was then misdiagnosed (intentionally) by accomplice C as dead (Hideyoshi/Nanjo?). They all lock up the shed, and then accomplice D (whoever) unlocks it, freeing person A.
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Old 2010-02-12, 15:54   Link #6091
Judoh
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I promised myself I wouldn't come to this thread quite yet, but... oh well.
You scared?

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Old 2010-02-12, 16:14   Link #6092
Pinguma
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Hmm... just to be clarified on the mysteries here:

1) Are double-bodies even allowed or possible at that day and time?
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
(used in EP4 Tea Party when Battler argues EP1)

I think this implies that they do not exist at least for the first episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
I promised myself I wouldn't come to this thread quite yet, but... oh well.

Answer for #2:

You don't even need a body double!

It is easy to explain if the (living) person inside of the garden shed was not working alone. In other words, person A (Shannon?) was locked alive in the shed and accomplice B puts the key away. Person A's death was then misdiagnosed (intentionally) by accomplice C as dead (Hideyoshi/Nanjo?). They all lock up the shed, and then accomplice D (whoever) unlocks it, freeing person A.
I like it, nice idea. Though Nanjo and (maybe)Hideyoshi are killed even though they are most likely the accomplices (Hideyoshi in particular), which suggests the culprit is a pretty harsh person. :S

There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!


Shannon would have to be A as Battler doesn't identify her, (he also doesn't check Hideyoshi in the second twilight but thats probably not necessary, no point in also suspecting Nanjo since its not required), Hideyoshi is C (though it may not even have been intentional) as Nanjo doesn't check Shannon. B is interesting since Natsuhi is the one to take the shed key so she would be it. She would also be D since she leaves for 'Father's study' when they all gather in the parlor. The accomplice list looks a tad strange to be honest but Natsuhi is shot at the very end and Hideyoshi is presumably killed. I thought Natsuhi's 'innocence' may have been universal though. Oh well.
Either way, I can't consider a better possibility for the key mystery especially when yours works so well

Last edited by Pinguma; 2010-02-12 at 16:27.
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Old 2010-02-12, 16:29   Link #6093
imaginari
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Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
there, though. The people in on the Kinzo conspiracy are logical accomplices to it. The required people 'in on' the Shkanon conspiracy include people like Kyrie, Rosa, and Hideyoshi at this point. As I said, it goes to approximately half (more, maybe) of the human characters in the story.
My count is actually nine, I think, but with decent explanations for most:

Spoiler for character by character:


Quote:
I fail to see how things 'fit'. In fact, several things just plain don't. For instance, Shannon and Jessica's conversation about Kanon going to the school festival becomes incredibly awkward if Kanon is just another personality of Shannon.
Didn't Shannon suggest bringing Kanon as a "fake boyfriend?" And Jessica was surprised by the idea before agreeing to it? Without checking the game text, I'd say that I don't think that it's as awkward as you remember it being.
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Old 2010-02-12, 17:13   Link #6094
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
You can't DO that with a true statement, and it's never been the case before that they've changed a word that explicitly means something to something else.
Would it be more acceptable if the word 'corpse' was in quotations, then?

What I'm saying is that they're referred to as corpses because everyone considers them corpses. Umineko has a couple of underlying themes about how the truth changes if everyone believes something to be true, stuff like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
I'm not referring to 'persons' with this, btw, because as much as I hate to admit it, 'person' does refer to 'personality', not the body of a human.
But that's the same thing. The word 'person' normally implies 'specific individual', but if you get into alternate personalities, it amounts to the same thing: The word no longer means what you were led to believe it means.

I just think that something has to be up with the first twilight bodies in Ep3, since the only one Battler ever witnesses (and that the viewers are shown) is Shannon's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
To add to this, Jessica is suppose to KNOW that Shannon and Kanon are the same person because she's shown in a flashback with them in Ep6.
I'd admit that really does undermind it, yes, since previously both George and Jessica were among those who had never witnessed the two together.

You know, sometimes I wonder if everyone isn't working together just to hide some secret from Battler, given the amount of contradictory information he's given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
Well, Krauss was identified, and Shannon's 'corpse' might not even exist/be a corpse, therefore it's probably possible for both of them to use a double of some kind

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Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
B is interesting since Natsuhi is the one to take the shed key so she would be it.
An oddly large number of lines are devoted to describing Genji finding a new padlock for the shed, removing it from the box, and giving it along with a key to Natsuhi.

What I noticed was that padlocks like that generally include an extra key, in case one loses the original.

Genji most likely has full access to that shed.
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Old 2010-02-12, 17:18   Link #6095
Pinguma
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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
My count is actually nine, I think, but with decent explanations for most:

Spoiler for character by character:


Didn't Shannon suggest bringing Kanon as a "fake boyfriend?" And Jessica was surprised by the idea before agreeing to it? Without checking the game text, I'd say that I don't think that it's as awkward as you remember it being.
In EP1 and 3, Jessica is deemed missing, whereas in EP2, she isn't actually dead when found in her room. She's only really killed in EP4 when everyone on the island is dead excluding Battler. Your idea of Nanjo even corroborates Jessica's 'death' in EP2.
Hideyoshi seems a bit unlikely I thought, as you noted there are several explanations, and I'm not sure why he would know.

I think it may be more likely for George to be clueless based purely on the fact he is on the island less whereas Jessica is, and he supposedly went on dates with Shannon so it would just be one person. He would not HAVE to know her secret. Jessica would be moreso in on the conspiracy since its been highlighted that she knows about them quite a lot, remains on the island, even growing up with them? (if Shkanon exists).

Also, its moreso the general idea of simply 'observing'. Unless for example Rosa directly spoke to them, I don't think she would be in on the conspiracy. In EP2 Shannon holds out the memo of 'chapel' and then it shows Kanon sprite show up, he says something and point at the stuff on the chapel. It may just really be the same person since Rosa did not necessarily acknowledge Kanon due to the third person writing style. About 'Kinzo', well she may be in on that but not necessarily so, there is my crazy idea of Rosa being replaced which I talk about in my theory when she goes to the study alone. Also, the Kinzo conspiracy is to hide from the other adults, which does not bode well if Rosa knows about it. If she learnt of his death when she went to the study, it was still after the chapel scene.
Otherwise though, Rosa is a decent case since she is also quite likely to be a culprit/accomplice with the aid of Shannon in EP2, so I'd think she is 50/50.

Personally I don't know what my view is on the matter of Shkanon, and I haven't read EP6 so I apologise if I have said something stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Well, Krauss was identified, and Shannon's 'corpse' might not even exist/be a corpse, therefore it's probably possible for both of them to use a double of some kind


An oddly large number of lines are devoted to describing Genji finding a new padlock for the shed, removing it from the box, and giving it along with a key to Natsuhi.

What I noticed was that padlocks like that generally include an extra key, in case one loses the original.

Genji most likely has full access to that shed.
Ah, good point, and it helps to clear up Natsuhi as an accomplice, as a result suggesting that Krauss really was dead at that point, though Genji is still killed...but it follows better as he is also quite the suspect in EP2.
The red:
Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

Even though the second sentence is referring to the previous statement, could it not be taken to be the case for the general murder? I also thought the unidentified corpses referred to not only those Battler observed, but also the fact that the faces were smashed/half-smashed so Krauss would be included (if it were the case.)
About Shannon 's existence I'm unsure since there is the whole 'thing' at Hideyoshi's feet and it does seem strange if he just said it was Shannon unless he simply concluded it because she was not amongst them.

Last edited by Pinguma; 2010-02-12 at 17:46.
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Old 2010-02-12, 18:49   Link #6096
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by tcaz2 View Post
There is a very big difference there, though. The people in on the Kinzo conspiracy are logical accomplices to it. The required people 'in on' the Shkanon conspiracy include people like Kyrie, Rosa, and Hideyoshi at this point. As I said, it goes to approximately half (more, maybe) of the human characters in the story.
Why you say that the Shkannon conspiracy requires more people? Let's just take a look at Kinzo, this requires the following persons to know the truth:

Natsuhi
Genji
Nanjo
Kanon
Shannon
Kumasawa
Krauss
Jessica (extremely unlikely she didn't notice)
Rosa (EP2 she sees him)

not to mention EP4, All of those who met at the family conference recognized the existence of Kinzo!

right maybe they have just seen a dead body, but that's not what Kyrie said, so you can add Kyrie as well.

Oh, forgot... Maria in EP4 says Kinzo gave her the umbrella.

That makes 11 out 17 people, or 10 out of 16 (depending on what you believe). That's more than half.

As for Shkannon you only need:

Genji
Kumasawa
Nanjo
Jessica
Natsuhi
Krauss
Kyrie

there is absolutely no reason to say that those who do not live in Rokkenjima or the dimwitted Gohda know anything about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeHee View Post
I promised myself I wouldn't come to this thread quite yet, but... oh well.

Answer for #2:

You don't even need a body double!

It is easy to explain if the (living) person inside of the garden shed was not working alone. In other words, person A (Shannon?) was locked alive in the shed and accomplice B puts the key away. Person A's death was then misdiagnosed (intentionally) by accomplice C as dead (Hideyoshi/Nanjo?). They all lock up the shed, and then accomplice D (whoever) unlocks it, freeing person A.
Well the "problem" is that "accomplice B" must be Natsuhi, because she's the one who took the key. Of course you could still say that Genji (I think it was him) with a sleight of hands gave Natsuhi a different key.
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Old 2010-02-12, 18:53   Link #6097
Marion
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Kinzo would need to be included in the Shkannon list - Kanon came to the island in 1983 and Kinzo only died in 1985.

My big thing is that why would Natsuhi and Krauss give two paychecks to one person? Plus wouldn't Natsuhi realize that the fact that Kanon is alive in EP 1 after Shannon dies means something pretty important about Shannon and her status of alive or dead.

Also, why did you include Kyrie on the list?
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Old 2010-02-12, 19:11   Link #6098
Jan-Poo
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If Natsuhi and Krauss know of course they are not giving 2 paychecks ^^;

And yes Kinzo must know as well, actually it's probably his idea since Kanon and Shannon are said to be Kinzo's furniture, however he's not one of the "persons inside the island" at the time of the game.

I have included Kyrie because she acknowledges the existence of both Kanon and Shannon being alive with her trapped in the underground prison. 'though I guess there might be two ways to get around it:

1) Kyrie is just taking part of the "fake murder conspiracy" and she's been told to tell that Shannon and Kanon are both with her even if they aren't.

2) it's not Kyrie who is talking but someone who can fake her voice.

However those are not very probable so I'll just say that Kyrie knows.

Episode3 is a different case as well with Ep1 Shannon corpse in the shed, because well those are corpses and they can be faked with things that resemble corpses like waxwork statues or the likes.
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Old 2010-02-12, 19:11   Link #6099
Judoh
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Does Kyrie ever talk with Shannon and Kanon? She spends most of her time with the adults I think. I don't remember her ever talking to any of the servants other than Gohda and Genji. Well maybe she spoke to Shannon once in episode 2, but I don't think she's ever said anything to Kanon.

Well besides episode 4. But I regard the prison scene as being fake.
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Old 2010-02-12, 19:14   Link #6100
Marion
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Episode3 is a different case as well with Ep1 Shannon corpse in the shed, because well those are corpses and they can be faked with things that resemble corpses like waxwork statues or the likes.
You're not getting my point - if Natsuhi is aware of Shkannon then she is also very aware than Shannon is not actually dead and is actually Kanon. Why not say anything about it?

Also if Kyrie knows then she's yet again under suspicion for being involved in the murders >__>
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