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Old 2009-07-17, 19:12   Link #641
Kets
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
There's 1st degree and 2nd degree. 1st is having thoughts of killing, 2nd is just killing. But killing someone is still murdering them, just a different name.
But what if there's no intent? From the Dic. entry, 2nd degree still requires intent. Like for example, What if Kanon tripped over Maria, and Kanon fell on a stake and died? That would be Maria killing, but not murdering.
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Old 2009-07-17, 19:16   Link #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kets View Post
But what if there's no intent? From the Dic. entry, 2nd degree still requires intent. Like for example, What if Kanon tripped over Maria, and Kanon fell on a stake and died? That would be Maria killing, but not murdering.
Manslaughter.

...can't spell slaughter without laughter...

sorry.
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Old 2009-07-17, 19:22   Link #643
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kets View Post
But what if there's no intent? From the Dic. entry, 2nd degree still requires intent. Like for example, What if Kanon tripped over Maria, and Kanon fell on a stake and died? That would be Maria killing, but not murdering.
Maybe I should make it more clear:

1st degree is killing with intent to do so. Premeditated murder is another term for it. You bring a gun to your friends house and shoot them, it's premeditated murder because you brought a gun there with the intent to kill. It's only becomes 2nd degree if proven that the defendant didn't bring the gun with an intent to kill and the murder was accidental.

2nd degree murder is more or less a spur of the moment. Like if someone sees you robbing a bank you kill them, it's 2nd degree. You never knew that person and never had any thoughts of killing them before that moment. Evidence also shows that it was not premeditated.

And your example would be an accident. Unless Maria specifically went to that spot just to trip up Kanon and then he landed on a stake she put there to kill him when he tripped, then it's killing. But yes, as stray said, the proper term is involuntary manslaughter.

Killing = Murder, but with a different name.
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Old 2009-07-17, 19:40   Link #644
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Well, I'm no legal expert, and I know Wikipedia isn't the best resource, but from Stark's link:

Quote:
Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder.
Well, playing the word game in English doesn't help us much. It's a little shaky, but I believe the red text about killing other people, or 'homicide', means another person was the cause of death. In which case, an accident directly caused by another person is probably blocked by the red text.
Still, I don't think we can be 100% sure of the rules behind the red text at this time. There have been many times before when Battler has asked Beato to clarify, and she has done so willingly, sometimes using the red text.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2009-07-17 at 19:51.
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Old 2009-07-17, 19:51   Link #645
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Different countries may call it different things, but legally it comes down to killing someone through negligence rather than an 'intent to kill.'

Setting up a spike lined wall trap for when someone opens the door = murder
Setting up a skateboard in front of the door that causes someone to fall and break their neck = manslaughter

Disclaimer: I'm not a legal expert either, Phoenix Wright avatar aside.
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Last edited by stray; 2009-07-17 at 20:04.
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Old 2009-07-17, 20:07   Link #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
That's called "she lied", not "it was a flashback", if you ask me.



Everybody is killed by ROBOTIC SUITS OF ARMOR created by Kinzo with his vast wealth despite it being 1986. It's about as feasible as human cloning in 1968, after all!
I doubt the ROBOTIC part, however... But it is possible for magically animated SUITS OF ARMOR... (I'm still sitting on the fence in terms of theories...)
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Old 2009-07-17, 20:16   Link #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Different countries may call it different things, but legally it comes down to killing someone through negligence rather than an 'intent to kill.'

Setting up a spike lined wall trap for when someone opens the door = murder
Setting up a skateboard in front of the door that causes someone to fall and break their neck = manslaughter

Disclaimer: I'm not a legal expert either, Phoenix Wright avatar aside.
Using more realistic examples...
Shooting a person out of revenge = murder
Running over a pedestrian while talking on a mobile/cell phone, or under the influence of alcohol = manslaughter
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Old 2009-07-18, 04:58   Link #648
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I wonder if Ange is going to come back in this episode. I know she's alive, as endless witches of resurrection don't die so easily.
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Old 2009-07-18, 05:13   Link #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post

Setting up a spike lined wall trap for when someone opens the door = murder
depends whether the one that set the trap could got caught under law or not lolz. and sometimes, under political or media means, it could even becomes suicide. well nowadays, u could sometimes see some stories where people put trap onto him/herself to blame his/her death on someone.
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Old 2009-07-18, 06:22   Link #650
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Marion: IIRC, under the felony murder rule, any deaths results from a felony can be prosecuted as first degree murder.
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Old 2009-07-18, 08:04   Link #651
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Personal Rant

During the opening which I've watched a thousand times, I decided to take note of the order in how the characters appear on the chessboard. It's been stated before who appears (although there were some mistakes) but here's my list anyway.

--

(Battler/Kinzo)

Rudolf, Kyrie, Nanjo, Krauss, Maria, George, Hideyoshi, Jessica, Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Kinzo, Gohda, Eva, Natsuhi, Kanon, <New Girl A>, (Stakes), (Siestas), Beatrice, Ronova, Virgilia, Gaap, Goats(?)

(Bernkastel & Lambdadelta)

--

Missing on chessboard: Rosa, Battler,Ange

Spoiler for Personal notes:


...Or the order means absolutely nothing and I'm completely wrong!

Edit:
Spoiler for Even more ranting!:


I'm happy Natsuhi may be getting more attention, I kinda like her.

Last edited by DizzyRoro; 2009-07-18 at 08:27. Reason: Elaboration time.
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Old 2009-07-18, 11:46   Link #652
Marion
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Bern and Lambda are on the chessboard. Before it explodes you freeze and you see their shadows behind it:



And where exactly did you see Rudolf on the board? Can you screencap it maybe because I didn't see sight of him :u
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Old 2009-07-18, 12:03   Link #653
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I happen to actually be... legally educated. Let's not say an "expert." Here's what I mean and what I'd like to know from the translators:

There are many words that can describe killing.

"Killing" means exactly that. A person was killed by some cause. If we say "Bob killed Joe," then Bob killed Joe, but we don't say anything about why he did it. Maybe he got angry and shot Joe, maybe he accidentally ran over Joe in his car late at night. No value is assigned to the person's culpability (that is, legal guilt). All the statement says is "soandso died." After all, we can also say "lightning killed Joe," as lightning would then be the cause, but you can't place a guilt value on a lightning strike.

In Beato's terms (at least as the game is presently translated) a statement like "all were killed by other people!" would mean a human being (who wasn't one of them, so no suicide) killed them. Nothing more and nothing less.

"An accident" generally means something happened to kill a person through a totally unintended means. That is, the person who died was killed without the person or thing that killed them meaning to do it. The important question here is whether r07 believes an accident to also disclaim a murder attempt that killed the wrong person. For instance, if I'm out to shoot Joe, and I shoot Mary instead, was that an accident? From a common person's perspective yes, but from a legal perspective no (it'd be transferred intent murder). But I don't think he's writing with legal concepts in mind, so I would guess that killing the wrong person is accidental.

I'm also not sure if "killed accidentally" is the same as "died in an accident" to him. The latter would be something like a car crash, falling down a hill, natural disaster, something like that.

I don't want to get into manslaughter as I think from the perspective of a non-legal writer (which I'm assuming r07 is, as most mystery writers are) it's no different from "killing someone for a good reason." So I'm going to say manslaughter, accidental killings, and self-defense are all merely "killing" to the author, which means the only distinction to make is...

Murder. Legally and in common understanding, murder is intentional killing for an unjustified reason. That's about the simplest definition: "Bob killed Joe" doesn't tell you that Joe was murdered. It could have been an accident. "Bob pointed a gun at Joe and shot him" doesn't tell you that Joe was murdered. It suggests Bob intentionally killed Joe, but that alone isn't murder. "Bob knew Joe was sleeping with his wife, so he decided to kill him with a gun" is murder.

Now obviously, most of the time killing someone directly is murder. However, there are two instances in Umineko I think are being intentionally not discussed in-game, and probably for good reason:

1) Killing the wrong person, or killing someone by mistake.
2) Killing in self-defense.

I would not classify either of these as "murder."

So here is the question I have for the WH translators and whatnot: When an expression is used like "<x> did not commit murder" or "<y> were killed by other people," are the commonly-understood Japanese terms for "murder" (as an intentional unjustified killing) and "killed" (i.e. just killed with no imputed guilt standard) used? I think the difference in terms is almost certainly relevant. Beatrice can swear up and down all day that someone "didn't commit murder" and that doesn't mean a person didn't kill if the word translated into "murder" specifically implies an intentional, unjustifiable killing.
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Old 2009-07-18, 12:13   Link #654
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watched the opening again, and noticed something really strange on 0:23 scene...
You can see there Maria's rose and Maria herself (part of her legs and black dress) standing really close to it ....Then....another figure is standing behind Maria. Besides the legs, everything of that figure is hidden behind the rose (on purpose, of course).

Spoiler for Scene:


well, the first thought was "that must be the new girl, maybe just standing there, or even giving her the umbrella..." but then I checked, and it can't be her, since she has long black socks. Those legs were white.
so, I tried to look on each possible character we've seen till now...and...well, no one fits.
If you compare those legs\socks by yourselves (their shape and color)...you can see it's like that.
I checked the ones who has white legs\socks, like the Siestas for example ... but the shape of the legs wasn't right (the siestas' legs are closer than those of this figure).

So...the last option is....possibly, a new character?

Right now, I noticed something more, on 0:25:
Spoiler for Figure:

Behind Kinzo, this weird shape I tried to figure what it was....it's Natsuhi. for sure.
It's just hard to see it =\ that's why I brought the pic of her tip chara too. she's in a weird angle there.
Spoiler for Natsuhi, the part of her that is shown there:


you can see the stripes on her clothes that's on her belly...and the folded thing under her chin.
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Last edited by Lady_Bernkastel; 2009-07-18 at 12:41.
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Old 2009-07-18, 12:20   Link #655
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
And where exactly did you see Rudolf on the board? Can you screencap it maybe because I didn't see sight of him :u
Rudolf is barely visible, as he is the very first character shown on the chessboard, even before kyrie.
Timeframe: 1:19
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Old 2009-07-18, 12:33   Link #656
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Rudolf is barely visible, as he is the very first character shown on the chessboard, even before kyrie.
Timeframe: 1:19
Yeah I just looked there and you barely see him flash :U Sneaky Ryukishi.

Also, for the legs, they looked like Ange's legs in her school uniform to me at first, but they're a bit skinnier. Plus Ange wouldn't be on Rokkenjima so yeah XD
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Old 2009-07-18, 13:10   Link #657
milkypink
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Regarding the "killed" versus "murder" argument, if someone could point me to a list of the red text for that section in Japanese I could take a look... but I feel like 殺す is probably the verb which is generally considered to mean "to kill"
殺人 is murder/homicide which I suppose you could turn into the verb of 殺人する (殺人された = was murdered; 殺された = was killed) but without the text I'm not sure...
I thought there was a post with all of the Japanese red text somewhere around here but doing a search doesn't seem to be helping me :/ (I don't have a save point near where it's said and I don't remember what chapter it was )
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Old 2009-07-18, 13:15   Link #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_Bernkastel View Post
watched the opening again, and noticed something really strange on 0:23 scene...
You can see there Maria's rose and Maria herself (part of her legs and black dress) standing really close to it ....Then....another figure is standing behind Maria. Besides the legs, everything of that figure is hidden behind the rose (on purpose, of course).

Spoiler for Scene:


well, the first thought was "that must be the new girl, maybe just standing there, or even giving her the umbrella..." but then I checked, and it can't be her, since she has long black socks. Those legs were white.
so, I tried to look on each possible character we've seen till now...and...well, no one fits.
If you compare those legs\socks by yourselves (their shape and color)...you can see it's like that.
I checked the ones who has white legs\socks, like the Siestas for example ... but the shape of the legs wasn't right (the siestas' legs are closer than those of this figure).

So...the last option is....possibly, a new character?

Right now, I noticed something more, on 0:25:
Spoiler for Figure:

Behind Kinzo, this weird shape I tried to figure what it was....it's Natsuhi. for sure.
It's just hard to see it =\ that's why I brought the pic of her tip chara too. she's in a weird angle there.
Spoiler for Natsuhi, the part of her that is shown there:


you can see the stripes on her clothes that's on her belly...and the folded thing under her chin.
I noticed this before as well, the new girl's eye is shown to the right, so I had thought that it was still her. Maybe she just gets an alternate outfit (like Maria, Ange, Young Eva/Eva Beatrice, Shannon, George, Kanon, etc...), but I still think that it's likely that she's the one who's behind Maria. Most of the other girls look too old to have legs like that, as they seem to have more of a shape to their legs anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Rudolf is barely visible, as he is the very first character shown on the chessboard, even before kyrie.
Timeframe: 1:19
Oh!! I see him now.

Here's a screenshot for those who can't see :3
Spoiler for screenshot:
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Old 2009-07-18, 13:26   Link #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milkypink View Post
Regarding the "killed" versus "murder" argument, if someone could point me to a list of the red text for that section in Japanese I could take a look... but I feel like 殺す is probably the verb which is generally considered to mean "to kill"
殺人 is murder/homicide which I suppose you could turn into the verb of 殺人する (殺人された = was murdered; 殺された = was killed) but without the text I'm not sure...
I thought there was a post with all of the Japanese red text somewhere around here but doing a search doesn't seem to be helping me :/ (I don't have a save point near where it's said and I don't remember what chapter it was )
http://rogerpepitone.webs.com/index.htm
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Old 2009-07-18, 13:51   Link #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So here is the question I have for the WH translators and whatnot: When an expression is used like "<x> did not commit murder" or "<y> were killed by other people," are the commonly-understood Japanese terms for "murder" (as an intentional unjustified killing) and "killed" (i.e. just killed with no imputed guilt standard) used? I think the difference in terms is almost certainly relevant. Beatrice can swear up and down all day that someone "didn't commit murder" and that doesn't mean a person didn't kill if the word translated into "murder" specifically implies an intentional, unjustifiable killing.
In that instance (thanks for the link rogerpepitone!) "killed by other people" = 他殺, "did not commit murder" = 殺人を犯していない, "killed by traps" = 殺された
他殺, as far as most dictionaries are concerned, translates to murder. WH translated it as "killed by other people" which is pretty literal, and a fitting translation, but legally I don't know if 他殺 and 殺人 are actually equivalent. (although I feel like they probably are? someone with both legal and Japanese knowledge can step up here...) Also 他殺 was used as a contrast to 自殺 (suicide) in some cases.
殺人, I would say is legally considered murder in the sense you listed above
殺す just means "to kill", intent is not put into it.

Last edited by milkypink; 2009-07-18 at 13:52. Reason: more specifying
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