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Old 2010-03-15, 12:49   Link #6581
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
"witch = magic user"
"witch = liar"
This is the problem in the chain. Who are the two example "witches" we're supposed to be learning about magic from? Maria and Ange. Would you describe either of them as skillful liars? I wouldn't. They rarely ever try to lie to anyone, much less succeed. There's more to the definition of a witch than just that.

There are, I believe, two uses of the word "witch". One is the normal version, a magic user, which is what Ange and Maria believe they are. The other describes the truth about Ange and Maria: two kids with a rough life who are able to escape that pain by creating a separate world they can run away to.

It's possible for Beatrice and Maria to accept someone as a magic user without knowing that person's past. My theory only has a problem if you assume the previous sentence is false.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So I'm not going to believe that Virgilia is considered a witch without any reason.
I believe I've already given several reasons.
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Old 2010-03-15, 13:03   Link #6582
Jan-Poo
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Ehi wait, Maria lies constantly. She might really believe in what she says, but nonetheless what she says is very often a lie. And about Ange, that's a borderline case, she doesn't even acknowledge the existence of witches in an universal sense. Also she can barely use magic at all.

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I believe I've already given several reasons.
No really no. Conjectures at best. What is your explanation for Beatrice claiming that Virgilia is a witch? Because she's a sad girl that can't tell reality from fantasy? That's not an explanation.
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Old 2010-03-15, 13:04   Link #6583
m13
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ehi wait, Maria lies constantly. She might really believe in what she says, but nonetheless what she says is very often a lie.
isn't that a contradiction?
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Old 2010-03-15, 13:09   Link #6584
Jan-Poo
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Are you implying that something is the "truth" as long as someone truly believe that is true even if it's false?
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Old 2010-03-15, 13:11   Link #6585
m13
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Are you implying that something is the "truth" as long as someone truly believe that is true even if it's false?
No, all I'm saying is that lying is an intentional act. You want to say something false even though you know better. And I don't think that's the case for Maria...
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Old 2010-03-15, 13:18   Link #6586
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ehi wait, Maria lies constantly. She might really believe in what she says, but nonetheless what she says is very often a lie. And about Ange, that's a borderline case, she doesn't even acknowledge the existence of witches in an universal sense. Also she can barely use magic at all.
My point is that Maria's lies never fool anyone. The definition of a witch cannot simply be someone who tells lies even if no one believes those lies. If that is the definition, it's not very interesting or useful. The significant point is that Maria believes those lies (Ange believes her lies, Kinzo believes his lies, Beatrice seems to believe her lies), not that she tells them to other people.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No really no. Conjectures at best. What is your explanation for Beatrice claiming that Virgilia is a witch? Because she's a sad girl that can't tell reality from fantasy? That's not an explanation.
No, it's because Virgilia taught Sayo about magic. I'm not sure how much she specifically taught her, but we know almost for certain that she did. After all, how do you explain the blending of eastern and western concepts, the spiderwebs and the mirror along with the idea of a western witch? Who's been the one source for old Rokkenjima ghost stories since the beginning of EP1? Kumasawa.

Also, as you might have noticed, if my theory is right, it explains half the game. If there's a problem with it, it's probably that it explains too much of the game too easily rather than the other way around. The only things I didn't go into detail with are the actual circumstances of Sayo's life, but there's nothing that can't be explained in at least one plausible way using those same rules of magic.

@m3: The reason I use the word lie is because on some level, the "witches" probably know the truth. I think Maria really does know that Sakutaro isn't alive, even if she tries to hide that fact from herself.
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Old 2010-03-15, 13:57   Link #6587
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chronotrig, I'm not understanding how your explanation is in any way proof or even evidence of Shkanon. Evidence of Shannon/Kanon-trice, sure, but nothing about it necessitates that Shannon = Kanon (and indeed, your insinuation is that we must also account for Genji, for some reason, whose existence has never really been called into question short of being described as furniture).

None of the conclusions you've reached differ from the various -trice theories (Shannon/Kanon/Jessica). They also - I think unfairly - characterize "Beatrice" as "the culprit," something I do not believe you can actually support. I think there is actually less evidence that Shannon is the culprit than that she's Beatrice. There is definitely evidence that something "Beatrice" is doing is tied to the actions of the culprit, but I'm not convinced. Really, there are no "possible answers to a huge section of the game" that were not already existent before Shkanon was advanced, and Shkanon adds absolutely zilch to it.

Indeed, it remains unclear to me the purpose of Shkanon, like, ever. Let's say it's true, Shannon is Kanon (pick whichever one you want as the "real" one), and the other one is made up and being impersonated (this has to be true as Battler "sees" both, and Battler isn't delusional). What is the point of being the other person? She (we'll assume she whichever way it goes for convenience) doesn't exploit the different relationships to investigate Battler's feelings or memory. She doesn't use the different personalities to establish an alibi for the other one. She doesn't exploit its deception to her own advantage (she could have used the First Twilight to fake her own death as in ep1, but if she's also Kanon, that didn't do her any good as she also had to fake his death).

It's meaningless. It's cumbersome. It could have a purpose, but she never actually makes any use of it. What's the point of being two people if you don't ever do anything with it? If one or the other is an imaginary being conjured up by the real one, why does he or she need to have a physical existence? If one or the other gets in the way of the events of the family conference, why couldn't the real one have picked a persona for the conference's sake and said the other was off duty? And why isn't anyone, anywhere, ever, aware of this? It's not that easy to be two people at once when you're working. No matter how good you are at your job, you're not going to be able to weed the rose garden and make the beds at the same time. All it takes is Natsuhi noticing one of the tasks hasn't been completed and wondering where the missing servant went. Or calling all the servants together, that'll be kind of problematic when only one of them shows up. Unless you're going to make the ridiculous and spiraling claim of a Shkanon conspiracy too.
Spoiler for Which I imagine goes something like this:
In my opinion, Shkanon is the death of elegance to this mystery. I'd be inclined to say that if Shkanon is true, there isn't even a mystery, unless she turns out not to be the culprit.

Moving right along...

You can't escape the ep3 First Twilight quite as easily as trying to evade the red. Nobody who supports Shkanon explains why the parents bothered to lie. And don't tell me "well Battler didn't see the bodies, it doesn't count!" The adults did, or the adults claimed they did. Why did they lie if they didn't find six bodies? They didn't commit the murders, and if they did they'd know how many people there were anyway. There's no way to guarantee the adults will follow the closed room chain properly or which room they'll try to break into first. Even if you buy the ridiculous "one person switched places, then switched back, faking a corpse both times and fooling seven intelligent adults" argument, they had no idea which body to pose as first or when they'd be discovered. So your only argument is that the adults lied. The adults have no reason to lie. There's a meaningful contradiction here being ignored because the red can be twisted until the stone bleeds.
Spoiler for Then again, those guys ARE jerks...:
Spoiler for On Sakutarou ep6:
I also strongly object to "magic = lies." This is going too far. Yes, a lie told can create magic. But you're basically arguing Erika's perspective if all magic is to you is a lie. The religion metaphor posted earlier is an apt comparison; indeed, under the Umineko definition you could argue that religion would constitute "magic." I think it would be better to say that magic is a more elegant retelling of reality in a manner better suited to the understanding of either the person telling the story or the person listening to it.

How is that different from "lying?" Well, because magic can tell the truth. And often does.
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Old 2010-03-15, 14:19   Link #6588
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I'm in the position that there are problems with the Kanon = Shannon, and there are problem with Kanon != Shannon.

As for Renall's comments:

- It is mentioned in a flashback scene that Shannon is slower at her work than other servants. Kanon describes it as Manon, Renon, or Runon doing only the places Natsuhi checks, but it could be that Shannon has to do double duty.

- Shannon / Kanon would probably do whatever Kinzo ordered him / her to do.

- As for Shkannon not knowing what order they'd find the bodies:
* Shannon, first floor parlor, had a master key and a (sealed?) envelope with the second floor guest room key
* Kumasawa, second floor guest room, had a master key and a (sealed?) envelope with the third floor waiting room key
* Gohda, third floor waiting room, had a master key and a (sealed?) envelope with the second floor honored guest room key. (Mentioned as having the family seal, while the others had the family crest. Which is it?)
* Genji, second floor honored guest room, had a master key and the boiler room key. (No envelope?)
* Kinzo, boiler room, had envelope with chapel key and letter
* Kanon, chapel, master key & first floor parlor key.

Three of the rooms are on the upper floor. IIRC, the boiler room lacked windows and the chapel had stained-glass windows, which they wouldn't want to break unneccessarily. Shannon would almost certainly be the first person discovered, and Kanon the last. (If the adults followed the circle of keys, or if they just stayed in the mansion until they'd gotten all the rooms there, they'd be sure to hit the chapel last; even if they weren't following any order, they'd have to go through the boiler room before getting the chapel key.)

This leaves the problem of Shannon getting into the chapel. Did the adults go by the chapel before they broke into the parlor? If not, it could have been left unlocked and Shannon locked the door from inside.

Also, Shannon's body was behind a couch; Hideyoshi (as in episode 1) was the one who saw her body. This also gives a reason for George to go into the parlor at the end, if he'd suspected this and wanted to check whether or not Shannon's body was still there, also, whether Kanon's body was in the chapel. (Was it mentioned whether Shannon's body was still there when they found George's body? If a corpse had been there for 18 hours, the room would reek horribly. I have trouble imagining blinded Jessica going back there, or Eva & Battler returning there, without reason.)
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Old 2010-03-15, 14:53   Link #6589
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Okay, I'll try to get to the first half of everything you brought up, Renall, but it's pretty clear you don't understand very much about my Shkanon theory. Still, it's been a while since I was last on and I haven't posted many of the details of it yet, so I'll go a bit more in depth.
Spoiler for size:


One more point. A lot of people act as though Sayo would have to trick everyone with Shkanon for 3 years straight, but that's simply not true. The servants weren't all employed in the mansion at the same time. In EP1, we hear that there are usually only 2 or 3 of them there, so it's likely that Kanon and Shannon weren't paired together except at the time of Kinzo's death. After that, they learned the secret, and Natsuhi was forced to employ both of them at the family conferences to help protect it, but for all we know, those few days were the only times that Kanon and Shannon were supposed to be on the island together. Looked at this way, it's possible that only Kinzo, who might have written their schedules, knew the truth.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-03-15 at 15:03.
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Old 2010-03-15, 14:58   Link #6590
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Spoiler for On Sakutarou ep6:
In my opinion,
Spoiler for ep6:
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:08   Link #6591
Kitsu
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But if Kinzo is at fault for all this why in the name of our dear lord in heaven would Kanon even go out and have fun wiht him? Cuz getting freindly with the one who screwed you up so badly is a fun thing to do?
Placing Personalities into bodys? I don't know if I understand this correctly but I beg of you..do you really a personality isn't something you can place or put into something. The human mind is way to complicated for such. Personalities are formed through all your life. Split personalites "can" be created. Yeah, through major shock and traumatic experiences but the chance that this happens is not even there and to do that 2 times? I take magic over such maniac solutions that are in the end nothing else but "magic"

Also I would absolutly despise the traumatic orphanage live forms you into a maniac massmurder...I know that pattern from somewhere just from where?
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:14   Link #6592
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Placing Personalities into bodys? I don't know if I understand this correctly but I beg of you..do you really a personality isn't something you can place or put into something. The human mind is way to complicated for such. Personalities are formed through all your life. Split personalites "can" be created. Yeah, through major shock and traumatic experiences but the chance that this happens is not even there and to do that 2 times? I take magic over such maniac solutions that are in the end nothing else but "magic"
Ah, but you're actually agreeing with me. Of course you can't just place a personality into someone. Kinzo's goal was completely hopeless, but then again, so is reviving the dead with black magic.

I don't know if split personalities is a good description for furniture. For example, when Maria acts out Sakutaro talking, can you really say that she has a split personality? I wouldn't. And yet she's acting out the part because she wants him to exist. If she dressed up in a way that looked exactly like a some kid named Sakutaro and was capable of playing the part perfectly, then people would actually believe it. However, on some level, she probably realizes that it's all just a gentle lie, even if she wouldn't admit it. Even if she doesn't realize it, then it's no different from a very small religion or cult.
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:21   Link #6593
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Ah, but you're actually agreeing with me. Of course you can't just place a personality into someone. Kinzo's goal was completely hopeless, but then again, so is reviving the dead with black magic.
But if you cannot do that how did it happen? How were they created? And if "Sayo" is the original...why does Shannon call herself that when she talks with George?

Quote:
I don't know if split personalities is a good description for furniture. For example, when Maria acts out Sakutaro talking, can you really say that she has a split personality? I wouldn't. And yet she's acting out the part because she wants him to exist.
But Sakutarou exists only for Maria while Kanon for example exists for everyone. Kanon has his own mind seperate from his sister. And even if for who is Kanon created? Just because Kinzo wanted to have fun and test stuff? Great than I could gladly do without Kanon. Especially as he should realize that he misses a part and has a bit to much somewhere else. So Kanon knows but is still able to miantain being Kanon after realizing that he infact does not exist?
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:26   Link #6594
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But if you cannot do that how did it happen? How were they created? And if "Sayo" is the original...why does Shannon call herself that when she talks with George?

But Sakutarou exists only for Maria while Kanon for example exists for everyone. Kanon has his own mind seperate from his sister. And even if for who is Kanon created? Just because Kinzo wanted to have fun and test stuff? Great than I could gladly do without Kanon. Especially as he should realize that he misses a part and has a bit to much somewhere else. So Kanon knows but is still able to miantain being Kanon after realizing that he infact does not exist?
I'm not sure how to respond to this... I think I covered all of it. Kinzo didn't create a separate personality, he just convinced them to act as though they had a separate personality. Anyone can act the part of someone else, right? Sayo is just acting the part of Kanon and Shannon. Maybe she believes that they exist inside her head, but that's totally different from having split personalities. Split personalities is a mental condition, furniture is a belief.

Sayo let George know her true name because, before Battler came back, their relationship was nearing the point of marriage. While she probably couldn't bring herself to tell George the whole truth, she could at least tell him her real name when he asked her. Shannon is only an imagined character, so she probably knows that Sayo exists.
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:30   Link #6595
Kitsu
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I'm not sure how to respond to this... I think I covered all of it. Kinzo didn't create a separate personality, he just convinced them to act as though they had a separate personality. Anyone can act the part of someone else, right? Sayo is just acting the part of Kanon and Shannon. Maybe she believes that they exist inside her head, but that's totally different from having split personalities. Split personalities is a mental condition, furniture is a belief.
Now I really got what you said but that's even more unbelievable. We had POV of both Kanon and Shannon and in those she adressed "her"self differently, they saw the world different and they thought of each other as different persons. Also is the furniture thing is something Genji started. Is he as well a Beatrice Project?
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:35   Link #6596
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Now I really got what you said but that's even more unbelievable. We had POV of both Kanon and Shannon and in those she adressed "her"self differently, they saw the world different and they thought of each other as different persons. Also is the furniture thing is something Genji started. Is he as well a Beatrice Project?
We also see the stakes, who consider each other different people even though they're all just a figment of Maria's and Ange's imagination. In reality, it's just the "witch" imagining what each furniture would think and say to each other. This is playing with dolls taken seriously
We have heard that Genji is Kinzo's first furniture, but not many details. He might or might not be related to Kinzo's project. Remember, Kinzo's goal is to find out how to transplant a personality. That doesn't mean he was trying to make Genji become Beatrice.
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:55   Link #6597
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hi everyone, sorry to interrupt and let myself in the conversation but there's a thing that's been bothering me for quite some time and i wanted to post it here....

Spoiler for size:


note that english is not my language so im sry if there are any mistakes
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Old 2010-03-15, 16:17   Link #6598
Kitsu
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We also see the stakes, who consider each other different people even though they're all just a figment of Maria's and Ange's imagination. In reality, it's just the "witch" imagining what each furniture would think and say to each other. This is playing with dolls taken seriously
But the stakes all have different vessels while that Kshannon mutant is very much the same vessel. That would aslo mean those personalities are simply fake as they manmade playing pretend personalities they don't exist. It's just decieving others. Maria decieves herself to make herself happy. Sayo decieves others because of "Master says so" She also doesn't stop after her Master dies.
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Old 2010-03-15, 16:32   Link #6599
chronotrig
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But the stakes all have different vessels while that Kshannon mutant is very much the same vessel. That would aslo mean those personalities are simply fake as they manmade playing pretend personalities they don't exist. It's just decieving others. Maria decieves herself to amke herself happy. Sayo decieves others because of "Master says so" She also doesn't stop after her Master dies.
I'm suggesting that Sayo deceives others because she believes those personalities actually exist. When she dresses up as Kanon, she believes that she's able to speak the part of Kanon, just like Maria speaks the part of Sakutaro.

Remember, if this is someone who goes around hiding things and opening windows unexpectedly because she thinks that'll clear out the anti-magic toxin from the area, she must have a separate little world in her head with its own rules. And she seems to believe in those rules. So if one of the rules is "when you dress up as Kanon, you become the furniture Kanon in the real world", she must behave as the furniture Kanon or else risk breaking the world she has in her head. As long as she doesn't break those rules, she can continue playing the part.
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Old 2010-03-15, 17:19   Link #6600
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But how do you that it isn;t the truth? For example, hard core athiests won't believe in God, even if a massive hand came from the sky and said, "I am God."

And such, how can we dismiss that magic is simply "fake"? Because like the end of Ep5, it goes to show that there can be multiple truths.


Also for something out of the discussion, I wonder if Umineko is going to be an endless cycle (like Ever17, ok, there was an end or Remember11)
1. Current Battler becomes "Kinzo", marries to Beato, gives birth to 4 children (naming them after the cousins' parents)
2. Battler/Kinzo dies from illness, Beato left to wander for several thousand years
3. The new set of parents give birth to cousins.
4. Repeat Ep 1 with the new Battler challenging Beato.
I had a similar theory for the end of Umineko called the "Infinite game end".

look at the bottom of this post.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6460
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