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Old 2010-03-16, 21:24   Link #6621
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Yeah, but he stopped in the 60's. But for Shannon I doubt they would need so much management to handle her. She isn't being kept secret for starters, since everyone is well aware she is around.
She isn't the same person then. How old would she be anyway? like 4?

I can see her being the current Beatrice but not the one back then. Even Kumasawa would make more sense as old Beatrice. That is if you want to play with red text.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:26   Link #6622
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Sorry, but you really aren't making much sense here. First off, it's flat out incorrect to say that my idea came "out of the blue". I have given evidence supporting pretty much every line in my original theory, even if that evidence isn't absolute proof (which is impossible in this game except for red text). This theory explains not only how Shkanon could exist and even be reached logically, but also a huge portion of the meta-world and the TIPs that most people decide to ignore completely. Of course, I doubt everything I've guessed is right, but you have to admit that there is a reason for everything I've said.
Why are you bringing up your whole shkannon interpretation? I never said anything about that. I started by saying that I don't agree with your definition of witch and then when I learned that you don't think Virgilia is a witch I was even more against that, but that's all. Your claim that Virgilia isn't a witch and your claim that having a tragic past is a requirement to be a witch have absolutely nothing to with the rest of your theory, because the rest can work perfectly without that.

So I repeat: your idea that Virgilia isn't a witch doesn't have any basis, you haven't provided any. The only think you "proved" is that it's "not impossible". Well that's not hard, my example of Genji being a transexual is also something "not impossible". But what I require is a reason.


Quote:
Second, I'm pretty sure I said just a few posts back that the character Virgilia is a witch. If you can imagine demons talking to you, you can imagine witches talking to you. However, that doesn't prove that the human who dressed up as Virgilia also falls under the same definition of a witch that Maria and Ange fall under. Maria isn't a talking stuffed animal just because she pretends to be Sakutaro's voice now and then.
You said a dozen of times that Virgilia isn't a "witch" like Beatrice, and I don't remember where you said she is. Anyway there is strong evidence that Kumasawa is a witch:

Quote:
Natsuhi: "If you call something like that magic, then that would make Kumasawa the witch of feigned illnesses. She only calls us to say she's taking the day off because of her bad back on the busy days. Like every year's family conference."

Beatrice: "Oh no, Kumasawa is completely different. She's a witch of a much, much higher level. If you knew what she really was, it'd shock you!"
This is piece-Beatrice who's talking here, the one under Lambda's control.
In the end there are no more reasons to doubt Virgilia/Kumasawa is a witch than there are about Maria, Ange, Beatrice and Eva to be witches.


Quote:
Try and picture it. You have a young girl living in Kuwadorian, who is often helped by someone who claims to be the legendary witch of the island, Beatrice. This person comes to the girl when the girl needs help and teaches her "magic spells" to help ease her pain. Eventually, the girl decides that she wants to become a witch too, and the person claiming to be Beatrice plays along with that because the poor girl seems so excited. In this case, would the young girl view the second person as Beatrice, the witch of Rokkenjima? Almost certainly. Would that prove by definition that this second person had a troubled, painful past and believed imaginary people lived in her head? No, not really. And by the way, the scene I've just described is very similar to the opening to EP3.
I'm sorry but how does this prove your point? The opening of EP3 shows a witch teaching Beatrice how to become a witch, and it doesn't tell anything about magic as a way to "ease the pain". In reality it's just Kumasawa teaching "magic" to "Beatrice", well no problem with that, but why can't it be simply be that Kumasawa actually is a witch? If find a lot more logic to think that the one who teaches how to become a witch is a witch herself. And why do you ask me if that proves that the master had a painful past? I don't believe so, I never said so, and I don't think it is related in any way with the rest.

Quote:
Also, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that "anyone labeled as furniture is necessarily fake because the story said so". I made a point of saying that it was only a hint, though a very strong one. In other words, "everyone called furniture must be suspected of being a fictional personality", especially if they call themselves furniture for some reason many people don't even try to explain. And the same goes for witches. Every person described as a witch should be suspected of falling under the Umineko definition of a witch.
So why is that you don't "suspect" that Virgilia is a witch?

Quote:
And every single one does, with Virgilia being the only possible exception since we are also shown that she is probably Beatrice's furniture.
First: show me the sentence where Virgilia was defined as furniture
Second: Beatrice was defined as furniture, so why you don't suspect that Beatrice isn't a witch either?

Quote:
And yet again, you've completely ignored the fact that for all we know, Kumasawa was a witch by this definition. That may be significant for the backstory details, but as far as this theory so far is concerned, it doesn't matter either way.
I don't think it was ever said that Virgilia isn't a witch anymore. She just stopped being the endless witch Beatrice.


P.S. Why are you fighting so hard to win such a lost cause that isn't really useful to explain anything about the game? I don't even think you actually believe it yourself. Why would Ryukishi confuses about the meaning of "witch" by making Beatrice say that Kumasawa is a witch while she's not? And if it is just for your sad past theory, you could say that maybe Kumasawa actually had a sad past, that would make a lot more sense.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:31   Link #6623
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
She isn't the same person then. How old would she be anyway? like 4?

I can see her being the current Beatrice but not the one back then. Even Kumasawa would make more sense as old Beatrice. That is if you want to play with red text.
I'm not talking about 1967 Beato. Like chrono said, there's a good chance that the Beatrice in 1967 isn't the same one we see in Beatrice's dream, because that Beatrice wonders why she is a witch and the one in the dream believes in magic and wants to be a witch.

I said that Shannon is the Beato we see in the EP 3 dream. She was living in the Kuwadorian for some time, but worked at the main mansion. Shipments don't need to be made to the Kuwadorian because Shannon doesn't live there secretly. Its possible that all the -on servants live in the Kuwadorian.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:38   Link #6624
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
@Renall:
So are you suggesting that we just ignore all of those scenes? What about the entire first part of EP2, with all that talk about needing a golden brooch in order to have love? Also, remember that Shannon apparently only felt "qualified" to love George after smashing the mirror? Both of these fit in perfectly with my theory: it's adding a new magic rule to sidestep an old one, just like Ange reviving Sakutaro for Maria. The rule was: furniture cannot love a human. However, Sayo later "discovers" that if they undergo trial X or use magical object Y, they might be able to get around this rule.
Those things could suggest anything about Shannon's mental state, the social obligations, her problems with Battler (assuming Beatrice there anyway), there's all sorts of ways you could read that.

I mean, do you honestly believe Shannon to be incapable of love without random acts of ritual? She isn't that messed up. If she is, you can basically dismiss far too much with "BECAUSE SHE'S CRAZY!" I just can't really accept that. I want to think she knows what she's doing, and the metaphor and ritual is designed to present her feelings to [Meta-]Battler, not reveal the depths to which she is completely twisted and nuts.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:44   Link #6625
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@Chronotrig: One thing I don't get in your theory is that if ANGE is a witch because she believes in lies and has a tragic past why can she break Beatrice's rules about reviving Sakutarou? It seems that she somehow got past that didn't she?

There is a clearly a difference between a dark witch and the latter as is demonstrated in episodes 3 and 4. The dark witch lies and follows weird rules the white witch doesn't. In fact ANGE Beatrice ignores the rules to make people happy. Unless you think that is completely different magic?

At one point Virgilia and Battler use something like that as an argument for why Beato isn't a real witch.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:46   Link #6626
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If we believe the anime, Sakutarou's "death" (his destruction by Rosa) may well have been a lie unto itself, "black magic" conjured up by Maria to justify feelings of hatred for her mother. ANGE's magic could just as easily have been truth: That he wasn't destroyed.

Someone ages back suggested Maria had just lost him on the boat and made up the story about Rosa destroying him. That might have actually been true. Depends how reliable a source you consider the show.
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:48   Link #6627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I said that Shannon is the Beato we see in the EP 3 dream. She was living in the Kuwadorian for some time, but worked at the main mansion. Shipments don't need to be made to the Kuwadorian because Shannon doesn't live there secretly. Its possible that all the -on servants live in the Kuwadorian.
So, they made her walk 2 km back and forth each day? And Krauss, Natsuhi, and Jessica failed to notice that Shannon didn't have a room at the mansion?
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Old 2010-03-16, 21:58   Link #6628
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If we believe the anime, Sakutarou's "death" (his destruction by Rosa) may well have been a lie unto itself, "black magic" conjured up by Maria to justify feelings of hatred for her mother. ANGE's magic could just as easily have been truth: That he wasn't destroyed.

Someone ages back suggested Maria had just lost him on the boat and made up the story about Rosa destroying him. That might have actually been true. Depends how reliable a source you consider the show.
Well I think that works in the VN too. In the context of the story though if the fact that Sakutarou was destroyed by Rosa is the lie. Then ANGE's magic should be revealing to her that that is a lie. So rather than "reviving" him it's more like she's destroying a rule that makes him not real by exposing a lie.

but his theory is magic = lies so it can't at the same time be magic = exposing lies

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-16 at 22:08.
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:13   Link #6629
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Meh honestly in regards to Rosa. I know in the end part of the happy end will be Maria gaining her mothers love... but honestly Rosa doesn't deserve a happy end as far as I'm concerned. She should either be killed or Maria should be put in a better home away from her evil, wiolent, un-loving bitch of a mother.

But then again I can't expect good things like that to happen I suppose. The happy end will be everyone getting what they want. Just like Higurashi.
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:19   Link #6630
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@Jan-poo:
Spoiler for size:


@Renall:
Spoiler for size:
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-03-16 at 22:52.
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:42   Link #6631
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But then again I can't expect good things like that to happen I suppose. The happy end will be everyone getting what they want. Just like Higurashi.
You should really read the other episodes and Ryukishi's articles before commenting on things like this.

There is no happy end in Umineko. Ryukishi said that he's going for a bitter sweet ending. And with all that's happened in the episodes after the ones you've read I don't see Umineko as "fighting fate can lead to the end where everybody is happy" like in Higurashi.

The goal in Higurashi was for Rika who was wandering the different Kakera's to reach a happy end by fighting fate. In Higurashi people could remember the past scenarios so they had a way to do that.

The goal in Umineko is to realize the truth. None of the characters on the game board remembers the past games. So there is now way they can break the loop. (and the games are most likely fictional narratives within the fiction anyway) knowing the truth in Umineko doesn't mean that by knowing it that you can stop the murders because Battler on the game board can't stop the murders he can only investigate them. The end will happen when the case is solved and the answer to how the Rokkenjima accident happened is revealed. That doesn't mean Battler is going to stop them from happening it's just that it will be revealed in 1998 how they happened.

And Unless Battler = Amakusa there isn't going be a big brother returning to Ange
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:46   Link #6632
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@Judoh:
Spoiler for size:


Also, there still is at least some chance for a happy ending. For example, if Umineko turns out to be based on the kakera system, it might be that this game is just searching for a certain kakera where no one dies. If Battler solves all the mysteries, he can perfectly describe what this sort of world might look like by stopping all the murders. Maybe then, they'll at least be able to "see" what the "happy end" world looks like. Who knows, maybe meta-Battler even gets to live in that one like a one-time Rika swap.
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:51   Link #6633
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You should really read the other episodes and Ryukishi's articles before commenting on things like this.

There is no happy end in Umineko. Ryukishi said that he's going for a bitter sweet ending. And with all that's happened in the episodes after the ones you've read I don't see Umineko as "fighting fate can lead to the best end" like in Higurashi.

The goal in Higurashi was for Rika who was wandering the different Kakera's to reach a happy end by fighting fate. In Higurashi people could remember the past scenarios.

The goal in Umineko is to realize the truth. None of the characters on the game board remembers the past games. So there is now way they can break the loop. knowing the truth in Umineko doesn't mean that by knowing it that you can stop the murders because Battler on the game board can't stop the murders he can only investigate them. The end will happen when the case is solved and the answer to how the Rokkenjima accident happened is revealed.

And Unless Battler = Amakusa there isn't going be a big brother returning to Ange
Meh well I watched the anime first and I'm at least reading through the novels now. Even though it's taking FAR longer to do that than it ever took me to watch the anime so give me a break...

I guess I just figured that in these kinds of series it's all about reaching the best possible ending. Though if it's gonna be different from the "everything's resolved and happy" Higurashi ending then I guess I have something to look forward too.

Besides which how do we know we won't get a Minagoroshi-Hen type arc where Battler figures it out and then uses the next arc to save everyone?
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:55   Link #6634
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If you see things that aren't there and believe they exist, you are crazy. If you have a strong imagination and occasionally lose yourself in that, you're immature or a dreamer. If you have a strong imagination and a grasp of metaphor, you have a literary imagination. I can just as easily support the lattermost of these with thematic elements from the released episodes as any other opinion. Not that I really like the "fiction theory."

So yeah, I'll call her crazy if she really believes that stuff exists. Even Maria and Ange are grounded in reality. They're just engaged in escapism.
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Old 2010-03-16, 22:56   Link #6635
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If it's about "witches must have a tragic past", then I'll bend a little and say they don't absolutely need one. However, I think they must have some reason for believe that the world inside their head is real, and furthermore, that world must be a significant part of their life. Unless it's from some kind of religion, most people don't tend to believe in such things completely unless they're either isolated or suffering and want to escape. If someone is a witch in this day and age, especially if they believe in furniture and Umineko-style "magic", it's a very strong hint that they had a very lonely childhood.
Now if that is what you think about witches then you should doubt about Ange as well. Or rather... the Ange that lived in Saint Lucia might still be a "witch" according to this definition, but not the Ange of 1998 which doesn't really acknowledge "magic" in its pure meaning to be true .
Anyway I differ even with that interpretation. To me it is not necessary for a "witch" to be delusional, and I think Ange proved that. Oh wait... Battler proved that even more evidently


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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I said that the character Virgilia is a witch, but the person who plays her is not necessarily a witch like Beatrice. I said there are two kinds of witch, one of them specific to Umineko (which refers to a real person), one of them the normal, magic-using type. Since the latter cannot exist in the real world, it must be furniture (by my theory's definition of furniture). Therefore, since Virgilia is portrayed to us as a magic-using witch, she must be someone's furniture if you accept the rest of my theory. If she is Beatrice's furniture (in other words, if Sayo believes that she exists), then we don't know anything about what Kumasawa actually believes.
However I don't think Virgilia is different tha MARIA, ANGE-BEATRICE and EVA-BEATRICE: The latters only happen to "kinda" maintain their original names (although it changes in katakana) and their appearance. By such perspective all of them are "furniture" in the sense that they represent an idealized "witch" personality of their respective selves. Of course this also applies to Sayo and Beatrice. For what we know Virgilia might actually be Kumasawa's furniture. But anyway this problem is irrelevant since Kumasawa herself was said to be a witch.

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Sorry, it looks I could have worded it better. The line you quoted meant "for all we know, Kumasawa did have a tragic past and/or truly believed in magic", which answers your previous question. Though I did previously say that Kumasawa might be a witch. My only point there was that you can't use Virgilia as a counterexample to disprove my definition of a witch.
I can't for the simple fact that it is not proven that Virgilia doesn't have a sad past. But I don't think I ever said that I can disprove your "sad past" theory. From the very start I only said I don't agree with it and to back my position I pointed that for what we know Virgilia/Kumasawa is a witch and there is no know sad past about her. So this was to prove my point and not to disprove your.

Virgilia/Kumasawa being labeled as a witch is something you can find in the novel, not my speculation
and the fact that no known sad past about her exist is also something you can check yourself in the novel.

But about "sad past" being a requirement to be a witch, where is it hinted? Of course we know that many (not all) of those that are labeled as "witches" also have a sad past. But frankly I think this fact must be taken in context. In this story pretty much everyone has a sad background. For example Eva (1986) is no match for Rosa when it comes to "sad past". Kyrie's got a pretty nasty one as well. Even Gohda doesn't have a happy background. Since there is high concentration of sad stories in Umineko I don't find it strange that most witches have one. Plus correlation and causation are not the same thing. So even supposing that there is a correlation because sad people are more likely to seek magic to ease their pain, it doesn't mean that every witch is like that or that magic exists for that purpose alone.
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Old 2010-03-16, 23:08   Link #6636
Judoh
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I guess I just figured that in these kinds of series it's all about reaching the best possible ending. Though if it's gonna be different from the "everything's resolved and happy" Higurashi ending then I guess I have something to look forward too.

Besides which how do we know we won't get a Minagoroshi-Hen type arc where Battler figures it out and then uses the next arc to save everyone?
Well like Chronotrig said we don't know yet, but with the way things have been set up I don't think having different kakera is going to be possible in Umineko. So while it might still be possible for that end to come up. I think an end where Ange finds the truth in 1998 with maybe a few people surviving is the best we're gonna get.
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Old 2010-03-16, 23:16   Link #6637
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
None of the characters on the game board remembers the past games.
We don't know this. Some things Maria has said could suggest that she is at least aware of the gameboards if not able to remember them.
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Old 2010-03-16, 23:23   Link #6638
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
We don't know this. Some things Maria has said could suggest that she is at least aware of the gameboards if not able to remember them.
Even if that's true she's not the detective and she's not interested in solving the mystery since she's proccupied with the golden land so she won't do jack.

Heck there are hints in ep 6 that George remembers, but if he's a potential murderer that puts Battler in the opposite situation that Keiichi and Rika were in.

And I don't expect Ryukishi to pull the same old thing he did in Higurashi where he has the little girl whose the reincarnation of a god get everybody to remember and save themselves. He's not doing Rokkenjima syndrome he's not doing that again either.
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Old 2010-03-16, 23:24   Link #6639
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and besides isn't that the point of this game? That Battler figures out the truth and saves everyone from the tragedy? Hasn't that been his goal?
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Old 2010-03-16, 23:26   Link #6640
chronotrig
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I find myself stuck between Renall and Jan-poo
Spoiler for size:
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