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Old 2009-07-18, 14:12   Link #661
Lady_Bernkastel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
I noticed this before as well, the new girl's eye is shown to the right, so I had thought that it was still her. Maybe she just gets an alternate outfit (like Maria, Ange, Young Eva/Eva Beatrice, Shannon, George, Kanon, etc...), but I still think that it's likely that she's the one who's behind Maria. Most of the other girls look too old to have legs like that, as they seem to have more of a shape to their legs anyway.
I think that the white-legged figure (XD) might be the one who gave Maria the umbrella, and that they showed the new girl's eye because she is a witness to this...and sees whose the one who gave it :O
Maybe.
[I really doubt she has another outfit, but that might be as well...hadn't thought about that idea]
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Old 2009-07-18, 14:37   Link #662
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by milkypink View Post
In that instance (thanks for the link rogerpepitone!) "killed by other people" = 他殺, "did not commit murder" = 殺人を犯していない, "killed by traps" = 殺された
他殺, as far as most dictionaries are concerned, translates to murder. WH translated it as "killed by other people" which is pretty literal, and a fitting translation, but legally I don't know if 他殺 and 殺人 are actually equivalent. (although I feel like they probably are? someone with both legal and Japanese knowledge can step up here...) Also 他殺 was used as a contrast to 自殺 (suicide) in some cases.
殺人, I would say is legally considered murder in the sense you listed above
殺す just means "to kill", intent is not put into it.
The word 他殺 does mean murder in a general sense, but specifically, it refers to one person killing another, as opposed to a suicide. The word 殺人 literally means a human taking the life of a human, so it might include suicide as well (again, we don't know for sure how Ryuukishi will choose to interpret it).

I believe that as a crime, 殺人罪 does imply intent, but in general use, 殺人 does not necessarily do so (although it often does). If there are any Japanese legal experts here who can confirm or deny this, that would be helpful.
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Old 2009-07-18, 14:47   Link #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The word 他殺 does mean murder in a general sense, but specifically, it refers to one person killing another, as opposed to a suicide. The word 殺人 literally means a human taking the life of a human, so it might include suicide as well (again, we don't know for sure how Ryuukishi will choose to interpret it).

I believe that as a crime, 殺人罪 does imply intent, but in general use, 殺人 does not necessarily do so (although it often does). If there are any Japanese legal experts here who can confirm or deny this, that would be helpful.
Good luck finding one of those. They're not too fond of lawyers over there.

On the other hand, that could be important. If to an ordinary Japanese person, "killing another" and "murder" are the same thing, then the entire line of distinction might be fruitless because as far as he's concerned as writer, "killing someone" = "murder." Even though that's not true to a western legal sensibility. In that case, saying "soandso did not commit murder" is equivalent to saying "soandso didn't kill anyone."

But we really have no way of knowing which is intended until he reveals the semantic trick (or explains things in a manner which entirely discredits those who "did not commit murder" as killers of any sort).

EDIT: I should of course note that, as far as I know, there is no theory present for any killing in the series thus far which is reliant on my semantic distinction. A simpler theory or two explains the deaths of everyone in ep1 and ep3 without relying on the people who are said to have not committed murder. So this is mostly a question of translation that I consider interesting. And even if it IS true, limiting them to killings that aren't murder means you have to imagine a scenario in which somebody killed without murderous intent. It winds up just complicating things. But it is interesting, and I wonder if it could lead to a theory that he didn't anticipate anyone thinking up (himself included).

EDIT EDIT: A good source of information on this might be Death Note, as the manga/series investigates the distinction between "killing those who deserve to die" and murder, and justifications for the same. I don't know any Japanese lawyers, but I'm sure there's tons of textual examples in the Death Note manga of distinct phrasings for murder as a legal construct of intentional homicide.
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Old 2009-07-19, 00:06   Link #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyRoro View Post

Spoiler for Personal notes:

Spoiler for addition, eps 1-4:
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Old 2009-07-19, 11:26   Link #665
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I decided to write some of my thoughts on the opening... (Sorry if I repost on a screenshot or a text)
Spoiler for EP5 Opening:
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Old 2009-07-19, 12:00   Link #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The word 他殺 does mean murder in a general sense, but specifically, it refers to one person killing another, as opposed to a suicide. The word 殺人 literally means a human taking the life of a human, so it might include suicide as well (again, we don't know for sure how Ryuukishi will choose to interpret it).

I believe that as a crime, 殺人罪 does imply intent, but in general use, 殺人 does not necessarily do so (although it often does). If there are any Japanese legal experts here who can confirm or deny this, that would be helpful.
If you are referring to manslaughter, the term would be 故殺 (in a legal sense) or 第二級殺人 (murder of second degree). 殺人 and 他殺 both describe intentional murder, only that 殺人 lays a bigger focus on the killing of a person.
人殺し is somewhat in the middle as it is the only word that does not necessarily describe intentional murder, but only the act of killing another or someone who killed another...at least that's what I learned.

So you could draw a line between a 殺人犯 and a 人殺し, as far as that the second does not have to have intenion, but the former has, implied by the 犯 which can also be a verb 犯す, which means 'to commit' or 'to violate/to become guilty'.

So there could be a way of playing with words here, as in XYは殺人犯ではない (XY is not a muderer) but XYは人殺しである (XY is a killer). This COULD be the small line helping here...we would only have to know a possible way of some of the victims being killed 'accidentaly'.
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Old 2009-07-19, 12:51   Link #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
I decided to write some of my thoughts on the opening... (Sorry if I repost on a screenshot or a text)
Spoiler for EP5 Opening:
Natsuhi and Krauss live on Rokkenjima, the servants spend most of their time there. I was thinking that the characters were introduced as "Guests" and "Hosts" instead of "Ushiromiya" and "Servants", which would explain why they're separated the way they are.

I also think the shadows are too blurry to really tell who each one is. Natsuhi being the shadow in that one screenshot might make sense, but I can't see Rika in that one screenshot you showed, also there's more to that one as in the OP the shadow grows bigger, looking less like Rika.
And the other figure to the front doesn't look like Rena at all to me, first off there are white and pink "ribbons" coming from it, which lead me to believe that she's the new girl... since the new girl wears white and pink ribbons and it pretty much matches up. Also after that scene, the new girl is shown with her eyes glowing.

I don't think Higurashi will have much to do with the mystery itself, maybe Bern will mention it or something. But I doubt that it'll have a huge part of the actual story, the story of Umineko already has so much to work with, it doesn't really need to borrow anything from Higurashi it seems. A witch that looks like another Higurashi character would be nice, but I'm not gonna bet on it.
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Old 2009-07-19, 12:54   Link #668
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About the side thingy and why Natsuhi and Krauss are on the servants side...

Maho_Momo if that side shows the recidences where is Jessica?
My guess is....those are the people involved in Kinzo's death and hiding it
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Old 2009-07-19, 13:00   Link #669
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
About the side thingy and why Natsuhi and Krauss are on the servants side...

Maho_Momo if that side shows the recidences where is Jessica?
My guess is....those are the people involved in Kinzo's death and hiding it
The kids/cousins are always shown separately (in just about every OP excluding the absolute first one that wasn't really used and was only shown as an extra but basically only introduces the characters so it doesn't really count since it didn't really show scenes from the story anyway.), otherwise Battler, George, and Maria would be shown with the adult guests as well. ^^;
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Old 2009-07-19, 13:02   Link #670
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Okay you are right...but I still have the feeling that those on the "servant" side aer somewhat involved in Kinzo's death and playacting that he was still alive
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Old 2009-07-19, 13:06   Link #671
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Okay you are right...but I still have the feeling that those on the "servant" side aer somewhat involved in Kinzo's death and playacting that he was still alive
I don't doubt that possibility at all... the servants, Krauss, and Natsuhi are shown communicating with Kinzo usually in each episode. I don't remember Kumasawa ever talking to him directly though, but she seems like the type who knows more than she lets on.

Gohda also isn't in that scene in the OP, I could imagine him being left out of the loop while the rest of the servants, Natsuhi, and Krauss all know what's going on more so.
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Old 2009-07-19, 13:40   Link #672
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GoldenWitchDrugs: Maybe the right hand side is for regular residents of Rokkenjima?
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Old 2009-07-19, 14:09   Link #673
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As far as the OP goes, I'm sort of surprised no one has really discussed or noticed the sequence I find the most interesting.

Spoiler for rather large image:


Spoiler for commentary:
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Old 2009-07-19, 14:18   Link #674
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Spoiler for Truth about the person in the background:


Hurray for HD opening!
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Old 2009-07-19, 14:45   Link #675
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it's virgilia... unless kinzo likes to crossdress
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Old 2009-07-19, 14:51   Link #676
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For those of you saying that Rosa's missing in the Chessboard part of the OP.
Well, I found her lol.

She appears before Rudolf and is in there for like 1 frame and is ridiculously faint.
Spoiler for Rosa:
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Old 2009-07-19, 14:53   Link #677
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Originally Posted by Rei-Tenshi View Post
For those of you saying that Rosa's missing in the Chessboard part of the OP.
Well, I found her lol.

She appears before Rudolf and is in there for like 1 frame and is ridiculously faint.
Spoiler for Rosa:
Holy crackerjacks... I thought Rudolf was ridiculously faint, but that's just super ridiculous. How are people supposed to spot her like that? @.@;
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Old 2009-07-19, 15:09   Link #678
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Sneaky Ryukishi is sneaky >___>
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Old 2009-07-19, 16:12   Link #679
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There's no way I can recognize that shadow as Rosa!, but well that's definitely a person there, and since Rosa is the only one missing, well yeah it's probably her.
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Old 2009-07-19, 16:14   Link #680
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You're right... it doesn't look like anything really, just a grey blur.
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