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Old 2010-03-23, 23:44   Link #6821
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
A little modification:

Beatrice is aware of Battler's sin, so it's impossible for Kanon to be Beatrice on the basis of Dlanor's argument. However, there's no proof that Beatrice and the culprit are the same person, so Kanon could still be the culprit.

On the other hand, Beatrice insisted that the sin wasn't against her and that she didn't bear a grudge against Battler for it. There is a possibility that she's actually a close friend of the person who was sinned against, and learned of the sin from that person.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
It is impossible for Kanon to be aware of Battler's Sin.
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:46   Link #6822
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Oh please. It's not about not having hints. It's about how the entire purpose of her theory was to deny a magic witch legend rather than simply show how the murders happened. It didn't matter who it was because no matter who she chose there would be no love in her theory. At this point one person murdering everyone in every episode is just ridiculous there are obviously several accomplices and there is obviously a conspiracy of some sort on Oct of 1986. There are tons of hints for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
This is actually Bern's screwup, but at the end of the trial when she was hounding Natsuhi, she accidentally eliminated all of the places a living Kinzo could exist at midnight.
Thanks, guys. I was needing some support here.

Yeah, Erika's theory doesn't actually EXPLAIN anything that happened at all... it merely shows that Natsuhi COULD have been the killer. Furthermore, if you ignore the questionable existence of her window seals, a 'Person X' (someone from the mansion) could easily have gotten in and out of the guesthouse.
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:47   Link #6823
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This is only true IF the magic scenes actually are metaphors for what's really going on, or if they're simply convenient, obfuscating 'outs'.

What I'm getting at is that Ryukishi can simply write off every single contradictory event (or, indeed, anything not from Battler's viewpoint) as an "oh, that never happened". This is the extreme danger (for the reader) when any author is writing fake scenes. But this is retreading discussion that I know we've all had before.

And yes, if the solution is something as inelegant and contrived as "Nanjo's granddaughter" or "Shannon and Kanon are the same person and in love with everybody" then yes, I will be visibly upset. This isn't what I signed up for at all!
Neither of those things are solutions. This is what the phrase "without love, it cannot be seen" means. You look at what you think are the results, though they aren't yet the correct ones, and use that to judge the quality of a series that will span close to a million words by the time it's done. This is why you shouldn't play these games based on spoilers. The whole point is the process of solving it, much more than what the actual answer is.

Much of Higurashi can be summed up with "parasites that make people paranoid", but to dismiss that game based simply on that fact would be a real waste. If you want to enjoy this game, you'll find there's a hell of a lot there to enjoy. If you don't want to, then move on to another series.

Also, before EP1 was even released, Ryuukishi made a point of saying "I'll make you believe in the witch" on his intro site. So you had to have known what you were getting into.
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:51   Link #6824
Judoh
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To be honest I wouldn't be susprised if Witch hunt was the off island mastermind behind the murders. In Higurashi it was yemainu who were the conspiracy group and Witch Hunt could very well be a think tank. It's possible that witch hunt could have a deeper meaning in the story. Especially since they have a vested interest in hiding the truth by spreading lies about magic.

oh the irony
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:54   Link #6825
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
This is actually Bern's screwup, but at the end of the trial when she was hounding Natsuhi, she accidentally eliminated all of the places a living Kinzo could exist at midnight.
You'll have to quote me the line. I don't think this was ever eliminated in red. Lambda does say "Kinzo is dead" in red, but that's in an aside, not said to the court at large. Erika probably doesn't even know she says it. The point is that, at the end, they had a theory which explained everything in that one episode, as long as you ignore any magic scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Oh please. It's not about not having hints. It's about how the entire purpose of her theory was to deny a magic witch legend rather than simply show how the murders happened. It didn't matter who it was because no matter who she chose there would be no love in her theory. At this point one person murdering everyone in every episode is just ridiculous there are obviously several accomplices and there is obviously a conspiracy of some sort on Oct of 1986. There are tons of hints for this.
You think you understand everything about Umineko? I thought you were calling that pretentious. Yes, there was no love in her theory, and yes, her goal was to deny the witch. But she was still on the "mystery" side of the argument. If you look back on the discussion, the word "mystery" is by definition anti-fantasy.
And "obviously several accomplices"? If that is the case, there must exist an explanation for why these accomplices would act the way they do in every episode, as well as why they would not act in the episodes that they don't.
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:54   Link #6826
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
It is impossible for Kanon to be aware of Battler's Sin.
Beato suggested that the sin didn't necessarily cause the deaths directly, but that it set off a chain of events that eventually resulted in the deaths. Someone learning about the sin would be included in that scenario, so there's no contradiction with my theory.
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:55   Link #6827
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Neither of those things are solutions. This is what the phrase "without love, it cannot be seen" means. You look at what you think are the results, though they aren't yet the correct ones
Then WHY have you been touting them as central to your theories for the past few months?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
and use that to judge the quality of a series that will span close to a million words by the time it's done. This is why you shouldn't play these games based on spoilers. The whole point is the process of solving it, much more than what the actual answer is.
...See, I don't think of it this way. Even if the process of solving it is the whole point, if the answer is something contrived that few people (if anyone) could ever reach, then... why should anyone bother solving it in the first place?

Besides, the story has been painful to read since Beatrice stopped being the best antagonist ever anyway, in my book. All I have left to look forward to is the solution, and...


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Much of Higurashi can be summed up with "parasites that make people paranoid"
And this is why Higurashi is a terrible mystery. Good story, but terrible mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Also, before EP1 was even released, Ryuukishi made a point of saying "I'll make you believe in the witch" on his intro site. So you had to have known what you were getting into.
Actually, I first got into this because I liked the Higurashi anime, started watching the Umineko anime, wanted to know what was going to happen next, and started playing the game, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If you look back on the discussion, the word "mystery" is by definition anti-fantasy, is it not?
Nope. Mystery is about finding the one single truth. Anti-Fantasy is about denying the existence of the witch who killed your family. They're only superficially similar; their goals are completely different.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:00   Link #6828
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
You'll have to quote me the line. I don't think this was ever eliminated in red. Lambda does say "Kinzo is dead" in red, but that's in an aside, not said to the court at large. Erika probably doesn't even know she says it.
Cornelia: At the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.

Lambda: At the stroke of midnight, the only people who existed outside the mansion are Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa!

Bern: From midnight until the following morning, Kinzo remained in the same room. Excluding Natsuhi's room, a living Kinzo does not exist anywhere.

The dining room != Natsuhi's room, so the set of places Kinzo could exist is empty.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:01   Link #6829
ijriims
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Trusting Ryu07 would give a satisfactory Answer for reasonable readers, despite the seemingly lame plot he was implying in EP6, would be the love he was talking about.

A satisfactory Answer would mean that it was consistent, logical, well-foreshadowed, realistitc and non-trivial. But there might be a few such answers for Umineko, Ryu07's is just one of them.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:02   Link #6830
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Beato suggested that the sin didn't necessarily cause the deaths directly, but that it set off a chain of events that eventually resulted in the deaths. Someone learning about the sin would be included in that scenario, so there's no contradiction with my theory.
A possible theory that I once thought of about this:

Spoiler for THEORY:


This doesn't contradict any of the red texts about Beatrice's motive, either, if Beatrice is Shannon.

Last edited by SeagullCrazy; 2010-03-24 at 00:21.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:02   Link #6831
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then WHY have you been touting them as central to your theories for the past few months?
Those aren't theories, they're just results of theories. Just saying "Shkanon" tells you almost nothing about why or how that is the case. Also, I did say that several of the theories I've tried turned out to be wrong. Even so, they led me to what I believe is a complete answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Nope. Mystery is about finding the one single truth. Anti-Fantasy is about denying the existence of the witch who killed your family. They're only superficially similar; their goals are completely different.
I suggest that you try reading EP5 again. When does it ever say that "mystery" is defined as the search for the one, single truth? I translated every word of that game, so trust me, it isn't there. Mystery is all about following the rules of the mystery genre when making your theories. Yes, it does try to find the truth, but by a specific method.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:05   Link #6832
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
A possible theory that I once thought of about this:

Spoiler for THEORY:
I would want to say the scene from EP2 when Nanjo told Kinzo Battler was coming back this year, Kinzo did not give a damn about it already denied the possibility of Kinzo wanting Battler to come back, or anything about Kinzo wishing Battler to be the next head.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:06   Link #6833
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I would want to say the scene from EP2 when Nanjo told Kinzo Battler was coming back this year, Kinzo did not give a damn about it already denied the possibility of Kinzo wanting Battler to come back.
Right. At that point, he had already given up and wanted to massacre his greedy siblings instead.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:07   Link #6834
Judoh
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You think you understand everything about Umineko? I thought you were calling that pretentious.
I never said that at all. If you recall all I said was there were hints that there was a conspiracy on oct 1986 and that a single murderer in any episode is ridiculous. There are too many people without alibis for there to only be one murderer.

You do a good job at twisting words in your favor when they aren't supporting you ideas.

Quote:
Yes, there was no love in her theory, and yes, her goal was to deny the witch. But she was still on the "mystery" side of the argument. If you look back on the discussion, the word "mystery" is by definition anti-fantasy, is it not?
And "obviously several accomplices"? If that is the case, there must exist an explanation for why these accomplices would act the way they do in every episode, as well as why they would not act in the episodes that they don't.
There was never any proof in any of the games that a witch committed the murders at all!

By mystery you have to accept the fact that there could be multiple solutions to your story right? Multiple murderers even? Simply denying that a single person named Beatrice did the murderers doesn't solve anything. It simply denies that a single fictional person is the murderer. What do you think the reason is that people beleive there is a mastermind and murderers? Because people beleive that there is someone who directs people to murder people for them! There are actually tons of hints for this in every single episode and questionable alibis to support it... I don't see why your so keen on putting one single person into a corner.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:08   Link #6835
ijriims
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Right. At that point, he had already given up and wanted to massacre his greedy siblings instead.
Then it was in contradiction to the scene in EP5 when Battler solved the epitaph, Kinzo yelled "Beatrice, I've won".

He did want someone to solve the epitaph and stop the ritual.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:09   Link #6836
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Beato suggested that the sin didn't necessarily cause the deaths directly, but that it set off a chain of events that eventually resulted in the deaths. Someone learning about the sin would be included in that scenario, so there's no contradiction with my theory.
The Culprit is knows the sin, I never claimed Beatrice was the culprit. My original claim is that the Culprit knows the sin, and it was impossible for Kanon to know of the sin. You cannot claim the Culprit doesn't know Battler's sin. This is a Devil's proof, it is not impossible for Kanon to hear of the Sin from word of mouth, however this merely makes him an accomplice nothing more. My original claim remains as well, Kanon is not the true culprit.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:11   Link #6837
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Then it was in contradiction to the scene in EP5 when Battler solved the epitaph, Kinzo yelled "Beatrice, I've won".

He did want someone to solve the epitaph and stop the ritual.
Then, maybe at that point, he didn't care who solved it. But he thought it was awesome when a miracle occurred and the incompetent Battler was able to solve it. He bet on astronomically low odds, and won.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:12   Link #6838
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Cornelia: At the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.

Lambda: At the stroke of midnight, the only people who existed outside the mansion are Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa!

Bern: From midnight until the following morning, Kinzo remained in the same room. Excluding Natsuhi's room, a living Kinzo does not exist anywhere.

The dining room != Natsuhi's room, so the set of places Kinzo could exist is empty.
Okay, I see what you mean. Well, in that case, you'll notice that Bern removed that entire section about the letter from the explanation. It was never brought up during the trial, so it didn't count towards the theory. That, by the way, is Battler's fault for not mentioning it. If he had done that, he might have won the trial sooner.

However, given the information presented in the trial, Erika's theory explained everything. Since it was the wrong theory, we can say for a fact that there existed some problems with it. However, the trial only cares about information presented to it. If it had been a perfectly fair trial, it would have ended up with the real answer of the game, which no one wants to hear this early on.

Still, look at the obvious difference between Erika's theory in EP5 and Battler's in EP4. Battler never suggested who was most likely to have committed the crime, he just picked out a few suspects that might have carried out each closed room. He was solving the game on a room-by-room basis. Erika was solving it on a game-by-game basis.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:15   Link #6839
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
The Culprit is knows the sin, I never claimed Beatrice was the culprit. My original claim is that the Culprit knows the sin, and it was impossible for Kanon to know of the sin. You cannot claim the Culprit doesn't know Battler's sin. This is a Devil's proof, it is not impossible for Kanon to hear of the Sin from word of mouth, however this merely makes him an accomplice nothing more. My original claim remains as well, Kanon is not the true culprit.
Because of Battler's sin many people die. This might sound strange to you, but his sin doesn't have to be "known" by the murderers. It only has to be the cause of them. It is perfectly fine for only one or two people to know what he did was a sin and for it to still be a cause of a plotline murder.

Besides that Kanon, Jessica, George, and Shannon share tons of secrets with each other. It's not impossible for them to be informed about it after 6 years ago.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:18   Link #6840
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
But there might be a few such answers for Umineko, Ryu07's is just one of them.
Dear god no. I hate ambiguous endings. They show that the writers had no clue what was going on either. (See: 'Cylons' and 'Plan'.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I suggest that you try reading EP5 again. When does it ever say that "mystery" is defined as the search for the one, single truth? I translated every word of that game, so trust me, it isn't there. Mystery is all about following the rules of the mystery genre when making your theories. Yes, it does try to find the truth, but by a specific method.
It always seemed to me as though it was implied.

Up until Ep5, Battler had been using Anti-Fantasy techniques; he only wanted to deny the witch. While he still wasn't comfortable with accusing his family for some time, he really didn't care a whit about the integrity of the mystery itself. He is then, in Ep5 introduced to the concept of Mystery by Bern, and the point of Mystery is to, you know, SOLVE THE MYSTERY, i.e. find the truth. Ironically, Bern's real reason behind becoming a player in Ep5 was to kill Beatrice; you know, the Anti-Fantasy goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I never said that at all. If you recall all I said was there were hints that there was a conspiracy on oct 1986 and that a single murderer in any episode is ridiculous. There are too many people without alibis for there to only be one murderer.
I've been kind of figuring that Umineko is supposed to be a twist on The Butler Did It.
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