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Old 2010-03-24, 00:21   Link #6841
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Okay, I see what you mean. Well, in that case, you'll notice that Bern removed that entire section about the letter from the explanation. It was never brought up during the trial, so it didn't count towards the theory. That, by the way, is Battler's fault for not mentioning it. If he had done that, he might have won the trial sooner.
Well, let's not beat up on Battler too much. He was sort of dead at the time, if I remember correctly.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:24   Link #6842
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It always seemed to me as though it was implied.

Up until Ep5, Battler had been using Anti-Fantasy techniques; he only wanted to deny the witch. While he still wasn't comfortable with accusing his family for some time, he really didn't care a whit about the integrity of the mystery itself. He is then, in Ep5 introduced to the concept of Mystery by Bern, and the point of Mystery is to, you know, SOLVE THE MYSTERY, i.e. find the truth. Ironically, Bern's real reason behind becoming a player in Ep5 was to kill Beatrice; you know, the Anti-Fantasy goal.
My only point is that this is your theory, not a fact. I cannot prove that my interpretation is the correct one, but I can find evidence supporting that claim. And that evidence makes up a large portion of my theory.

Quote:
I never said that at all. If you recall all I said was there were hints that there was a conspiracy on oct 1986 and that a single murderer in any episode is ridiculous. There are too many people without alibis for there to only be one murderer.
I sort of agree. I don't think there's one single murderer in every episode, but again, that's just a theory. Until you understand the entire solution, you must accept that your theory might be wrong. Even with everything I understand now, I still accept that.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:27   Link #6843
ijriims
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Then, maybe at that point, he didn't care who solved it. But he thought it was awesome when a miracle occurred and the incompetent Battler was able to solve it. He bet on astronomically low odds, and won.
Any reason why Kinzo wanted to make Battler as the next head? From what we read, Battler did not communicate much six years ago. And he gave up on that so easily after Battler ran away?

If the running away of Battler caused Kinzo to be as mad as wanting to kill his children, shouldn't the coming back of Battler sort of thwart it or make Kinzo rethink about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Dear god no. I hate ambiguous endings. They show that the writers had no clue what was going on either. (See: 'Cylons' and 'Plan'.)
That's not what I mean.

I was saying that the answer to a mystery may not be unique, just that an author's authority makes one of these answers the canon one, putting other viable answers as untrue. Currently, the popular answer would be different versions of "multiple groups of people scheming things, accidents happened and different murders ensued" (e.g. George as mastermind, Kinzo as mastermind, Shannon as mastermind, Kyrie as mastermind). Some of the theories could solve the game satisfactorily (at least to some people), utilizing enough hints and realistic, Ryu07's Answer may be one of them or not. Before the catbox is open, they have the same level of trueness, only because as the "God", Ryu07 makes the Answer Answer.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:30   Link #6844
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Any reason why Kinzo wanted to make Battler as the next head? From what we read, Battler did not communicate much six years ago. And he gave up on that so easily after Battler ran away?

If the running away of Battler caused Kinzo to be as mad as wanting to kill his children, shouldn't the coming back of Battler sort of thwart it or make Kinzo rethink about it?
There's not much evidence, except that maybe Battler was the person from 19 years ago. And when Battler did come back, Kinzo was too dead to do anything about it.

Oh, and about why Kinzo would give up so easily: Battler rejected the family name and lived with Asumu's parents. For Kinzo to believe that someone who hated the Ushiromiya name could actually become the sole heir is a bit ridiculous without him going insane over it.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:35   Link #6845
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
My only point is that this is your theory, not a fact. I cannot prove that my interpretation is the correct one, but I can find evidence supporting that claim. And that evidence makes up a large portion of my theory.
I have evidence for my theories too. So do most people here. It's not a big deal.

To be frank, I'm not even going to believe that you have a comprehensive theory until you offer something resembling proof, so...
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:36   Link #6846
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Until you understand the entire solution, you must accept that your theory might be wrong. Even with everything I understand now, I still accept that.
And I beleive you must take the same interpretation.

Here is an example. Ryukishi said that anyone who knew the truth can figure out the line up of all epitaph murders after Hideyoshi's death in episode 5. Consider this: Erika believes that Natsuhi is the culprit. Since she believes this she would not keep her eye off of Natsuhi for a second on Oct 5th. Her theory didn't resolve the murders at all because according to Ryukishi said in an interview if we know the truth we can figure out how the happened after the game was cut off after Hideyoshi's death. And neither you nor I have yet to solve this!
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:40   Link #6847
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And I beleive you must take the same interpretation.

Here is an example. Ryukishi said that anyone who knew the truth can figure out the line up of all epitaph murders after Hideyoshi's death in episode 5. Consider this: Erika believes that Natsuhi is the culprit. Since she believes this she would not keep her eye off of Natsuhi for a second on Oct 5th. Her theory didn't resolve the murders at all because according to Ryukishi said in an interview if we know the truth we can figure out how the happened after the game was cut off after Hideyoshi's death. And neither you nor I have yet to solve this!
To be precise, Ryu07 said people knowing the Answer had no trouble figuring out what happened after the game was cut (right after Natsuhi was caught getting to her room by Erika).

Like how come the sixes become truly dead without bodies being moved? Is Hideyoshi really killed and when? Would there be final disaster like in EP4's end? What happened during the time gap (from the game was cut and the trial)?

People knowing what killed Battler in EP4, the culprit(s) and their motives would have no trouble answering these questions.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:44   Link #6848
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I have evidence for my theories too. So do most people here. It's not a big deal.

To be frank, I'm not even going to believe that you have a comprehensive theory until you offer something resembling proof, so...
My point is that you can never entirely discount possibilities just because you think they're unlikely. You might think it unlikely for some guy to shoot a target from a hundred yards away, but if you later hear that guy was a trained sniper, that theory becomes possible. You might think it unlikely that some person won a lottery, but if you find out they had the whole thing rigged from the start, it actually becomes pretty likely.

Quote:
Here is an example. Ryukishi said that anyone who knew the truth can figure out the line up of all epitaph murders after Hideyoshi's death in episode 5. Consider this: Erika believes that Natsuhi is the culprit. Since she believes this she would not keep her eye off of Natsuhi for a second on Oct 5th. Her theory didn't resolve the murders at all because according to Ryukishi said in an interview if we know the truth we can figure out how the happened after the game was cut off after Hideyoshi's death. And neither you nor I have yet to solve this!
Not exactly sure what you're saying here, but I'm pretty sure I do know what would happen after EP5 ends. Erika's theory was wrong, I believe. It only looked plausible if you take just the evidence that was actually presented at the court.


Those are all the hints I'm going to give for now. Feel free to believe me or not believe me.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-03-24 at 02:51.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:44   Link #6849
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
To be precise, Ryu07 said people knowing the Answer had no trouble figuring out what happened after the game was cut (right after Natsuhi was caught getting to her room by Erika).

Like how come the sixes become truly dead without bodies being moved? Is Hideyoshi really killed and when? Would there be final disaster like in EP4's end?
yeah that's true here is the exact quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi07
In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corpse was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.
"The answer" is probably "the truth" though it wouldn't be strange to interpret that way.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:45   Link #6850
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
To be precise, Ryu07 said people knowing the Answer had no trouble figuring out what happened after the game was cut (right after Natsuhi was caught getting to her room by Erika).
I seem to remember something about only the First Twilight being needed to predict all of the following ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
My point is that you can never entirely discount possibilities just because you think they're unlikely. You might think it unlikely for some guy to shoot a target from a hundred yards away, but if you later hear that guy was trained sniper, that theory becomes possible. You might think it unlikely that some person won a lottery, but if you find out they had the whole thing rigged from the start, it actually becomes pretty likely.
Aaaaaaand Knox 8. That's all I'm going to say to that.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:45   Link #6851
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post

I'm pretty sure I do know what would happen after EP5 ends. Erika's theory was wrong, I believe. It only looked plausible if you take just the evidence that was actually presented at the court.
That's wrong not what I mean. Read the quote from the interview. Anybody who knows the answer should be able to solve the murders beyond the ones we were shown. Of course Erika was wrong. What I'm saying is your not done solving episode 5. It was never solved. And if you can't do that you don't know anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi07
In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corpse was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Those are all the hints I'm going to give for now. Feel free to believe me or not believe me.
What hints? Your not giving hints! You just being ambiguous. All the hints I need are in the game you have no authority to give any hints whatsoever. Your the same as us. We can only share what we can find on our own from reading the same story.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-24 at 01:02.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:53   Link #6852
SeagullCrazy
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Well, it's getting late here, so I'm going to be leaving. But my blue truth still stands. I'll summarize it all right here, and I'll discuss this more tomorrow.

Spoiler for Theory:
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:10   Link #6853
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Chrono: I'm going to have to agree with the majority, even "if" and that's a big freaking if even by your own words you solved it, your attitude isn't really helpful and kind of infuriating. From my POV it seems like your looking your nose down on the rest of us, you can claim whatever you want but a lot of people here are asking for one thing proof or at least some explanation for your theory. You tell us to believe it or not but your not even saying anything about it. Your mostly being ambiguous and we have enough of that from Umineko.

Guys: I understand how it feels but Klash may have to intervene if this keeps up so let's calm down and keep thinking I'm sure it'll dawn on us eventually what the hell is going on lol.

I said this before but I thought that in Ep 5 Natsuhi would be murdered next after Hideyoshi and then somehow the group would be split into two and the group Battler isn't in will be slaughtered.
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:25   Link #6854
chronotrig
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I'm not looking down on anyone. As the English translator for this series, I've been forced to spend more time thinking about it than anyone else, which probably gives me an unfair advantage.

Forgive me for being a bit happy at being one of the first to solve this much of the game. I've logged a lot of hours into it, and I apologize if I've ticked a few people off. If you think I'm wrong, then feel free to to ignore me. If you think I'm right, maybe you'll have an easier time reaching the answer. This way, no one gets hurt, unlike what would happen if my theories turned into spoilers.
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:35   Link #6855
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Your avoiding the question can you explain it to us then? After all it's merely a theory so it can't hurt to elaborate on it. You said so yourself. The main issue isn't your attitude here but your ambiguity about your so called "hints" Your claiming some really big things without actually elaborating on it.
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:44   Link #6856
Judoh
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I'd rather ignore him like he suggested. He said himself that it's impossible to find any absolute truth in Umineko right? So hows he suddenly supposed to be able to claim with absolute certainty that episode 7 is going to confirm his claims? He says "possibly" now, but just awhile ago he was talking as if he knew these spoilers were going to be revealed. The box is sealed so he has know way of even knowing if this is true. It might be possible that neither Shkanon nor Erika not existing are true theories and we've just both been playing a 2 party game. Or that one is true, but not in the way we thought. Either way it's a sealed box we're not eating the cookie until it opens.
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:44   Link #6857
ijriims
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I suppose since chronotrig has been translating Ep6, he (or she?) got in touch of some crucial information from EP6 which could spoil the content of EP7 and EP8, while those information was not known to someone like me who does not know Japanese well.

Maybe he does not want to let us know his theory until the patch was done.

BTW, chronotrig, have you changed some of your theses (like Whodunit? Whydunit?) in your theory while you were reading EP6?
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:48   Link #6858
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I think it's Shannon personally. I used the process of elimination in Ep 1's murder of Natushi, and I assumed the true culprit was the one who pulled that trigger. Meh I'm not really confident in my method but I really believe it's Shannon. lol
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:52   Link #6859
Judoh
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I suppose since chronotrig has been translating Ep6, he (or she?) got in touch of some crucial information from EP6 which could spoil the content of EP7 and EP8, while those information was not known to someone like me who does not know Japanese well.

Maybe he does not want to let us know his theory until the patch was done.

BTW, chronotrig, have you changed some of your theses (like Whodunit? Whydunit?) in your theory while you were reading EP6?
To be honest I don't even think being a translator is a decent advantage. The game was created for the readers and what the fans beleive in japan have affected most of the games thus far. Even Natsuhi having an affair with Kinzo was a pet theory on 2chan! The author and the translator only affect the story mutually.

As far as I'm concerned the reader and the translator have completely different perspectives. And it may actually turn out to be a disadvantage to be a translator because you may have to focus on some of the wrong things when your doing that act of translating. For example ignoring Knox when Beatrice said in episode 2 she prefers a mystery that follows those rules. Kind of forgot about that hint.
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:54   Link #6860
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
I think it's Shannon personally. I used the process of elimination in Ep 1's murder of Natushi, and I assumed the true culprit was the one who pulled that trigger. Meh I'm not really confident in my method but I really believe it's Shannon. lol
The last murders are probably the easiest to find a culprit for, but you have the problem that you can't tell why the murder occurred very easily. It could have been carrying some master plan, but it could also have been for self-defense, or a revenge killing, or some other reason. So even if you know who did it, you can't really tell if they were the mastermind or not.

I've been working off of the assumption that whoever pulled off the first twilights is a mastermind, and everything else is potentially noise. Of course, that's a lot harder since there's too many suspects...
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