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Old 2010-03-25, 22:59   Link #7081
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
In episode 2, which twilight was Kinzo's corpse used for?

I love the theory Chronotrig. I hope this puts all the doubters to rest once and for all. Good job.
In EP2, Kinzo's corpse was never discovered, but it was still treated as though he was alive until the end, since he was never needed as a sacrifice. More details on that whenever I get to the next part of the theory. It's only about halfway done so far.

And thanks a lot for reading the whole thing.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:18   Link #7082
Renall
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Your theory, if true, is immensely disappointing (the outcome itself, that is; I'm not saying your presentation of it is). However convinced you may be of it's workability, it just boils down to "crazy maid." Call me loveless if you want, but if that's the answer it sucks and Umineko was a waste of time. Again, this would be on ryukishi, not you. But if you're right, this is a godawful piece of crap story. But good on you for guessing it even so, whether it resolves well or poorly.

That said, my standard objections to the actual theory presentation continue to apply. Shkanon remains an unnecessary appendage (however you may stress its essential nature, and the fact you've asked it to be accepted as a premise despite not really being needed for the reasoning that follows is telling), it's too single-culprit centric, reads metaphor too literally, and makes far too many stretches. It's hard to argue on this point because what I consider a needless reach you consider a necessary leap of faith. But I can't disguise my objection (not that you aren't already aware), so there it is.

As an example, you're reading way too much into the "what form did it have?" Speech. The witch is asking the participant to visualize the thing as it was; or cynically, is getting them to close their eyes so they can do sleight-of-hand. I would read the ep6 gold similarly to the way you do, but I see it as an example rather than proof of a lunatic maid with OCD and severe dementia. That it happened in the meta-world is telling, I think.

I'm not saying I can deny it, but again, just because it isn't contradicted doesn't make it right.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:24   Link #7083
chronotrig
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@Renall:
You're free to think whatever you want, and I don't think anyone is at all surprised to see you dislike my theory.

Just a question though. What kind of answer would you want?

Edit: Remember that I'm not done though. There's more to this story than just Sayo. It'll take another crazy long post or two for that.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:31   Link #7084
Judoh
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The only problem I have with "Sayo", *ahem Shannon*, murdering everyone is that it's essentially like saying she's not a human person with morals and what not. Since throughout episode 1 the murders were described as something a single person couldn't do, but I'm just nitpicking there. I have a hard time beleiving promises about white horses supersede that part of our psyche. I basically look at a love murder like a cat killing a mouse and giving it to you as a present. The cat doing it doesn't understand you don't want the mouse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
As an example, you're reading way too much into the "what form did it have?" Speech. The witch is asking the participant to visualize the thing as it was; or cynically, is getting them to close their eyes so they can do sleight-of-hand.
I basically thought the same thing it's a slight of hand. The same thing can be used to fix the vase in the opening scene of episode 3. I mean if she closes her eyes you can basically just put a replica there and claim it's magic. That kind of abuses the scene with Maria, but they happen in the same episode so I don't see a problem.

What's telling about the opening scene in episode 3 is that loli Beatrice refers to somebody as "Grandfather". Some people beleive that's a clue for Jessitrice, but at this point I think whoever Beatrice is is really a moot point. If it's true that each game is it's own story I see no reason why the same person has to be Beatrice every time. For that to happen you have to "revive" the piece you want to be Beatrice constantly. The very fact that there is a suit version and a dress version of her suggests Doubletrice theory or "Any of the Women can be Beatrice theory".

I also think Beatrice is a boiler explosion should already be an established fact

Call it loveless, but it explains a lot of things.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:32   Link #7085
Kaisos Erranon
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Renall basically said everything I wanted to. Tch.

Yeah, I don't see why Shkannon is needed for this to work at all. It can still work perfectly without, but, like Renall says, I think the whole thing relies too much on Shannon being TOTALLY INSANE.

Pretty much everything else you said I can sort of agree with and see where it's coming from, though. Except the 'landslide' bit... it's better (for the integrity of the mystery) if Shannon actually sets a bomb of some sort, to ensure that the catbox of Rokkenjima remains closed forever.

I, however, would far prefer it if Shannon was being manipulated instead of being the mastermind... but the theory isn't as crackpot as I though.

Yet.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:37   Link #7086
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The only problem I have with "Sayo", *ahem Shannon*, murdering everyone is that it's essentially like saying she's not a human person with morals and what not. Since throughout episode 1 the murders were described as something a single person couldn't do, but I'm just nitpicking there. I have a hard time beleiving promises about white horses supersede that part of our psyche. I basically look at a love murder like a cat killing a mouse and giving it to you as a present. The cat doing it doesn't understand you don't want the mouse.
The major point of this theory is to show that Sayo didn't want to kill anyone. She believed that, if she succeeded in the ritual, everyone would be revived and given gold and their lost love. Yes, it did take a lot of momentum to get her to do this, but she never truly wanted to kill anyone. On the contrary, she believed that Kinzo and Beatrice would be revived as part of this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I also think Beatrice is a a boiler explosion should already be an established fact

Call it loveless, but it explains a lot of things.
That's true, in a sense. Meta-Beatrice represents "the illusion of the witch" during the Rokkenjima incident. The final straw that created the illusion was the boiler explosion/gas explosion that started a landslide and wiped out all the evidence. So, the landslide and explosion at the end are one part of Beatrice.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:41   Link #7087
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That's true, in a sense. Meta-Beatrice represents "the illusion of the witch" during the Rokkenjima incident. The final straw that created the illusion was the boiler explosion/gas explosion that started a landslide and wiped out all the evidence. So, the landslide and explosion at the end are one part of Beatrice.
It's necessary to cause a landslide. I think it was Rogerepitone that pointed out that a boiler explosion can burn down an entire house. According to wikipedia or whatever his source was. They could of just died in a fire.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:44   Link #7088
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
It's necessary to cause a landslide. I think it was Rogerepitone that pointed out that a boiler explosion can burn down an entire house. According to wikipedia or whatever his source was. They could of just died in a fire.
Rosa musou. If you can accept that all meta-scenes are metaphors of something, then I can't think of a better way to describe Rosa and Maria's actions at the end of EP2 than trying to outrun a landslide and failing. Also, in the future scene with Ange, it looks like some hill has been completely sheered off into a cliff. That might have happened after the crime, but if so, there wasn't much need to show it (yes Jan-poo, I've finally admitted it).

The island had been hit by a typhoon for two days straight, so it was already in a perfect condition for such a landslide. Depending on the shape of the land, this should be possible to pull off.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:45   Link #7089
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The major point of this theory is to show that Sayo didn't want to kill anyone. She believed that, if she succeeded in the ritual, everyone would be revived and given gold and their lost love. Yes, it did take a lot of momentum to get her to do this, but she never truly wanted to kill anyone. On the contrary, she believed that Kinzo and Beatrice would be revived as part of this theory.
Yet she is able not just to justify murder (which, at least, you could perhaps understand), but also gross mutilation and mistreatment of their bodies? As I understand it, the argument is that this is necessary for the illusion of the witch, but I'm not entirely sure why.

A closed room murder, sure. I can even accept staking since the immediate conclusion people make is that it follows the epitaph, which is a good way to make them believe the epitaph is an evil ritual. It's also not too disrespectful.

But hang on. Smashing or ripping faces wholly or partially off? Murdering people in front of a little girl? That entire disgusting farce in the ep2 chapel? All for the sake of fulfilling the vague promises of a happy magical resolution to everything?

That's the behavior of a delusional, antisocial monster.

EDIT: In fact, I'd call it out as an outright contradiction in the nature of the character as described. You've described an individual who must have some degree of empathy. If the murders are being committed like this by someone who doesn't even understand the suffering they cause (or justifies it), then we're dealing with a person with very little empathy.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:53   Link #7090
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yet she is able not just to justify murder (which, at least, you could perhaps understand), but also gross mutilation and mistreatment of their bodies? As I understand it, the argument is that this is necessary for the illusion of the witch, but I'm not entirely sure why.

A closed room murder, sure. I can even accept staking since the immediate conclusion people make is that it follows the epitaph, which is a good way to make them believe the epitaph is an evil ritual. It's also not too disrespectful.

But hang on. Smashing or ripping faces wholly or partially off? Murdering people in front of a little girl? That entire disgusting farce in the ep2 chapel? All for the sake of fulfilling the vague promises of a happy magical resolution to everything?

That's the behavior of a delusional, antisocial monster.
Remember, with the author theory, these are just stories she tells. There's no proof that any of them happened.
And with the Battler-centric theory, she's trying to convince Battler that magic happened. Fear is a good motivator, and the more harsh she makes it, the more likely Battler is to believe in the salvation the Golden Land offers.

Look at it this way (sorry for not explaining the Battler-centric theory yet): if she starts carrying out the murders but doesn't convince Battler that the witch is real, then she'll have been guilty of murdering the people closest to her with no chance of the magic needed to revive them. She's betting her life and the lives of everyone on the island on convincing Battler that magic exists.

In addition to her rational reason, there's also the furniture reason. The idea she has of Beatrice is an evil witch, suitable for carrying out the instructions of the epitaph. In order for the magic to succeed, she must convince herself that she is the witch. She must become the part of the witch. That is the only way to avoid messing up the ceremony and killing everyone permanently.

Edit: Actually, there's even a third explanation. Meta-Beatrice only chose the worlds with the most brutal and pitiful murders to egg meta-Battler on. She figured the best way she had of pushing him to find the answer was by pissing him off, and in the end, it looks like it worked.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:55   Link #7091
Renall
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But Battler is on Rokkenjima (and afterwards, presumably dead, although in a One 1998 Theory I all but assume he's secretly alive in spite of the obvious problems it causes). Author Theory isn't very helpful for the people actually on the island. They won't even see the message bottles, let alone anything else.
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Old 2010-03-25, 23:57   Link #7092
chronotrig
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But Battler is on Rokkenjima (and afterwards, presumably dead, although in a One 1998 Theory I all but assume he's secretly alive in spite of the obvious problems it causes). Author Theory isn't very helpful for the people actually on the island. They won't even see the message bottles, let alone anything else.
In the Author Theory, Beatrice might have poisoned everyone in their sleep for all that mattered. She had to make the story interesting and thrilling to the public to catch their attention and make them want to believe it (since most people wouldn't care too much, they could get away with just believing it passively. "Oh you mean those rich people who got killed by demons or whatever?").
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:00   Link #7093
Renall
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So wait, who's supposed to believe this? Battler? The people on the island? The public? In the first two cases the message bottles will never reach them. In the lattermost case, why is committing actual murder necessary? Couldn't everyone in the family just get on a boat at Kuwadorian and sail off to America?
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:00   Link #7094
Judoh
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I'm just throwing this in there since I see this parallel a lot. In episode 3 Kinzo is basically shown to be sexist it wasn't unusual at the time I know, but it shows how he thinks. I think Kinzo had a lot of Nazi or American influences. The eagle was a symbol in both Germany and America. The gold might even be from Fort Knox (interesting coincidence there) and America was very racist too at the time we even had concentration camps for a bit.

I'm thinking the idea of Furniture represents Kinzo's racism. For example what if Kanon and Shannon were chinese (just an example) and Kinzo hated chinese people? Because he's racist he might say "The chinese don't have souls".
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:02   Link #7095
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Here it looks like you've created a contradiction of motives, chrono. If Sayo is so desperate to make people believe in the witch so she can revive everyone, then why did Meta Beatrice try so hard to get Battler to solve the mystery and kill her?
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:03   Link #7096
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So wait, who's supposed to believe this? Battler? The people on the island? The public? In the first two cases the message bottles will never reach them. In the lattermost case, why is committing actual murder necessary? Couldn't everyone in the family just get on a boat at Kuwadorian and sail off to America?
For the Battler-centric theory, it's Battler she's trying to convince. For the Author theory, it's the public. I haven't yet explained my version of the Battler theory, so you'll have to wait on that.

For the lattermost case, it's important to have a true cat box. If everyone just left the island, at least they would know that they hadn't been murdered.
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:04   Link #7097
Renall
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I'm just throwing this in there since I see this parallel a lot. In episode 3 Kinzo is basically shown to be sexist it wasn't unusual at the time I know, but it shows how he thinks. I think Kinzo had a lot of Nazi or American influences. The eagle was a symbol in both Germany and America. The gold might even be from Fort Knox (interesting coincidence there) and America was very racist too at the time we even had concentration camps for a bit.

I'm thinking the idea of Furniture represents Kinzo's racism. For example what if Kanon and Shannon were chinese (just an example) and Kinzo hated chinese people? Because he's racist he might say "The chinese don't have souls".
I think it's almost a certainty the gold is Nazi gold. The comparison of the Ushiromiya crest on the gold in the anime to the stamps the Nazis used are eerily similar.
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:08   Link #7098
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Remember, with the author theory, these are just stories she tells. There's no proof that any of them happened.
By the way, the author theory would separate the character Shannon or Sayo from the author Shannon or Sayo. In essense Piece-Shannon and Shannon-Prime. The two would have very different abilities and motives. They would share a common history of course...

In the end Piece-Shannon also has to have good characterization enough to fit Knox rules. If she is on the verge of a murderous rampage, there has be good clues to show motive. Either insanity, hate, revenge or something, although revenge has been ruled out by the red, it seems. Although I tend to believe some of the things in your theory, I don't believe she has much to do with the actual murders. Maybe she and some others do create a situation that makes it look like people died however.


Also one more thing, in the author theory, Featherine would be a character since she is connected to the Umineko meta-world and Hachijou seems to be the underlying author. Although it seems Hachijou does speak through Featherine sometimes.


By the way, you don't figure that Kumasawa also has a hand in all of this? I would think the teacher would also take action in addition to Shannon. (For example in EP2, convincing Kanon to play dead and working to make the scene look good.)

Or are you going to get to that soon... 8) Everyone to the accusing parlour! /me hands chronotrig a pipe and deer stalker.
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:08   Link #7099
chronotrig
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Here it looks like you've created a contradiction of motives, chrono. If Sayo is so desperate to make people believe in the witch so she can revive everyone, then why did Meta Beatrice try so hard to get Battler to solve the mystery and kill her?
This is because Meta-Beatrice and Sayo are completely different people. Remember how we hear that Meta-Beatrice has "lived for a thousand years"? I think that line is significant. I think Meta-Beatrice went through something before Meta-Battler showed up, possibly a logic error.

Also, there have been a lot of hints (and I think Ryuukishi has said this) that Meta-Beatrice represents "the rules of the game" or "the illusion of the witch". She is not Sayo, but since Sayo is the person mainly responsible for the illusion of the witch, the two are very closely related.

Just to skip ahead a bit, I believe that Beatrice and Lambda challenged each other in games similar to the one we're watching between Battler and Beatrice. Meta-Beatrice realizes that everyone dies and stays dead, so her goal is to put a stop to the murders. Unfortunately, that's not as easy as it sounds.
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Old 2010-03-26, 00:25   Link #7100
Judoh
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I think it's almost a certainty the gold is Nazi gold. The comparison of the Ushiromiya crest on the gold in the anime to the stamps the Nazis used are eerily similar.
What about my theory that Kinzo is racist though? His Beatrice fantasy is clearly a reference to the "aryan master race" idea in Nazi germany with the whole blonde hair and blue eyes thing. Heck Battler even... hell I can't go there...
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