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Old 2010-03-26, 22:26   Link #7141
chronotrig
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@Renall:
Actually, thanks for your comments, Renall. I may disagree with many of the points you made, but you've pushed me to find a more simple answer.

The question is whether or not Sayo is an evil person. It is not whether or not she did evil, horrible things, and is anything less than absolutely responsible for her crimes. This much, I think we both agree on, so there's no point in either of us arguing either side. However, I don't think doing evil things means that a person is inherently evil. In other words, Sayo can still be saved from herself if she's stopped before committing the crimes.
From Sayo's perspective, what are the Epitaph Murders?

Beatrice thinks of the Epitaph Murders as a giant prank. The one thing that we know about "Beatrice" is that she loves pulling pranks on people. Since, at the end, everyone will not only revive, but have all their hearts' desires granted, she believes that this will all become a joke after the end. The EP1 Tea Party and the end of EP3 show the way Beato thought everyone would react. She actually thinks she's doing everyone a favor.

Is this very naive? Of course. Sayo was raised on a small island by a person claiming to be a witch and a really old dude who likes black magic. Is it evil? Only if you believe killing someone then reviving them and giving them everything they desire is evil. You can argue whether this is true or not, but since no one (as far as I know...) has ever had to deal with this problem, it's probably best not to make any absolute statements.

Also, remember that the Shannon and Kanon personalities are not at all happy about this. Both of them realize that love isn't something that can be achieved so simply, and they represent that Sayo is conflicted about this. However, she has so many reasons for wanting (even needing, in her eyes) this to happen that her wishful thinking gets in the way of her better judgment.

Oh, and as for defiling the dead. It's good to look back through the games and try to find a pattern. How many times have the dead been defiled needlessly, and was it really needlessly? This is separate from the stakes, which are needed to fit the epitaph. Remember that Meta-Beatrice can control what happens as long as the pieces behave realistic ways, and that she wants Battler to be motivated to solve everything.

Edit: This doesn't mean I'm switching my explanation for the motive. The "prank" concept is an idea that the Beatrice personality came up with (remember, she's tailor-made to match Battler's outgoing, rough and daring personality). Sayo's motivation is the love she feels for everyone on the island, and Beatrice's proposition is Sayo's way out of an impossible situation.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-03-26 at 22:50.
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Old 2010-03-26, 23:01   Link #7142
Renall
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Well, obviously if it's possible to stop the murders, then it's possible to prevent evil from occurring. And the murders are indeed evil. I don't disagree with you on that.

My point is just that a convoluted morality that is tremendously alien from our own is probably not what the author intended to serve as a solution. And I don't think that "Beatrice," at least, wants to kill anyone (if she even does, a fact I am not sold on). Again, on that I do agree. I just think a more simple answer is necessary.

The notion that somebody might be killing who otherwise wouldn't want to and is being manipulated or misled is not a bad idea. In fact, I'd definitely not call that far-fetched in the slightest. Preventing the murders means saving them from death.

If I may, though, I think your theory winds up being a bit Battler-esque in its desire to protect people from evil natures; as you said yourself, per your theory, the culprit can't be said to be evil by nature, just doing evil for a mistaken reason. However, I wonder if that's really true. The grisly murders, the twisting of the epitaph, I just can't help but think someone rational-but-evil is masterminding all of that. Doesn't mean he/she hasn't forced people who are irrational-but-doing-evil or even just good-people-forced-into-doing-evil into doing his/her bidding. In that sense, you could have multiple culprits and still make it possible to "save" them.

That said, if there is such a mastermind, I can't see them also being saved. I think Meta-Battler's flaw by Chiru is that he cares too much. He's gone beyond not wanting to arbitrarily finger a culprit and lay blame on them to not wanting to lay blame on anyone. That does not necessarily mean that everyone is innocent-natured (obviously someone is still DOING evil through the murders, but it may not be because they're bad people); in fact, I think he's even caring for the mastermind despite that person not deserving it. That's his weakness, but also what makes him endearing. I just think it would be a bit weak if everyone were effectively innocent if they can be "saved" from having to murder. I don't crave someone being brought to justice, but I can't see there not being a wolf among the sheep on Rokkenjima.

It's the same reason I don't like the notion of an off-island mastermind (though Ssol's theory on that at least kind of might make sense). The whole moral arc of Chiru so far, to me, is about the difficulty of doing justice when you realize the truth and take on the burden of exposing it (the moral arc of the first four episodes being the refusal to lay blame simply because it's convenient). Erika is an example of what happens when you have no such compassion (she was also incorrect, but the point was she could so callously harm Natsuhi and accuse her without hesitation). Battler has too much compassion in ep6, and as a result becomes entrapped rather than reveal something he has learned.

What Beatrice did caused her great suffering, and Battler is suffering as well. I think they both have some difficulty laying blame on the culprit. That may be because, as you've suggested, the culprit isn't thinking like we would. But it could just be that both of them are really good people. Or unveiling the mastermind will disrupt people, so saving them from murder means revealing one of them as evil. Or it could be like someone said with a catbox mastermind, where if one person is saved from doing evil another is guaranteed to do so. But you'd need a reason for that to happen.

EDIT: Oh, and for dramatic irony purposes, I think it would be much more interesting if the person actually behind it all were the most coldly cynical and embittered realist among the group. With all the talking up of witches, magic, delusion, illusion, and evil, I just think it would be something interesting if the witches and magic were, if not harmless, not bad things, and the villain were someone willing to toy with those beliefs to manipulate those who do believe.
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Old 2010-03-26, 23:10   Link #7143
chronotrig
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Wow, I'm surprised. I think I actually agreed with just about everything you said there Renall. Hopefully, when I get to the end of my theory, we'll be able to see eye to eye.
I'll do the Battler-centric part tomorrow, I guess. There's not much there that hasn't been said before in one place or another.
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Old 2010-03-26, 23:11   Link #7144
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think your relying too much on the fantasy scenes actually, but if the ring was not given to George's family by Kinzo any of the servants with the eagle could do it. Even Natsuhi and Krauss could, but that would imply that they are in on a huge act. I think your getting close to an answer, but your relying too much on scenes that can't happen since a living Kinzo can't exist.
I just think that Ryukishi... and he seems to have this habit... will later be telling us, "Look, I told you didn't I? The fantasy scenes are fantastic but they still told the truth!" or... "The truth was there right in front of your face." etc.

So I think for a lot of the fantasy scenes represent something that actually happened but in a different manner. Like Jessica and George's fight may actually have been with each other. Or they were working against each other somehow and may not have been a physical fight.

This is meta-gaming, if Ryukishi was like the game master of a D&D session. "Oh, the DM wouldn't be putting a trap that could REALLY kill us all here; cuz then the story would be over!"

So for the ring, I think Kinzo gave it to 'Beatrice.' Technically speaking in EP2, it came to Ronove who then gave it to Beatrice. By the way, when else did it show up? It showed up in a fantasy scene in EP3 with Eva-Beatrice, right? And EP4 as a continuation of EP3 with Ange... It also showed up in an envelope with Battler (which *could* have been a fantasy scene) in EP5. Did it appear anywhere else?

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Also one thing I'm going to add. I agree that Kumasawa might be old Beatrice. You can get around the red in episode 3, by saying Kumasawa is dead. But if that is true the fact that she is old Beatrice is probably a well guarded secret that only She, Nanjo, Kinzo himself, and Genji would know about because she would essentially have to be Kinzo's mistress. She would also not have any actual authority to order people because of this.
Well, I think Shannon and Kanon are also part of the Beatrice faction although they may have motives of their own. In fact, my speculation is that the ring passed from Kinzo -> Genji -> Kumasawa -> Shannon, since to me it seems like Shannon is the only one who had the opportunity to place it in EP5.

As for Kumasawa, I see her as Virgilia back in 1969 but she doesn't have to be Kinzo's mistress. There's no guarantee that Kinzo was romantically involved with his original Beatrice benefactor... We already know though that She, Nanjo, Kinzo and Genji already have the secret of Beatrice-69 and the secret of Kuwadorian. More details from that era would simply be a continuation of that same secret; that she was Virgilia or that they were raising Beatrice for reason X, etc, etc.


Oh, as for her authority, I imagine it is some kind of authority from Kinzo. The reason for this is because of the 'playing dead' in a lot of the episodes. I'm assuming it's the Beatrice faction that initiates the playing dead, though they aren't the ones to commit the murders. If it is that faction, look at what they're asking people to do:

We know that the people play dead in rooms of their choosing. So they at least agree to it in some fashion. But it's not a prank; what kind of people would continue to stay dead after your family and loved ones get upset, thinking you were dead? Maybe the whole family was in on one huge joke, but Battler was not in EP1-4. You'd think someone who cared about Battler would've ended it if it was a prank. So they were maybe forced or bribed into doing it; it was a serious endeavor. I'm actually thinking they had to take sedatives to help in EP5, seeing as how long people had to play dead in EP5... 1am in the morning to 7-8am.

Natsuhi already thinks she and Krauss are the next heads and have greater authority than almost everyone on the island, especially the servants. She already knows Kinzo is dead. So the only thing that could outrank her in her own mind is Kinzo's will. I bet almost everyone is at least willing to honor Kinzo's will, so that's why I'm thinking the Beatrice faction is using this authority to order people to do things.

(At least willing to honor his will *on the surface.* Obviously some people are not, secretly. 8) )
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Old 2010-03-26, 23:53   Link #7145
Judoh
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I just think that Ryukishi... and he seems to have this habit... will later be telling us, "Look, I told you didn't I? The fantasy scenes are fantastic but they still told the truth!" or... "The truth was there right in front of your face." etc.

So I think for a lot of the fantasy scenes represent something that actually happened but in a different manner. Like Jessica and George's fight may actually have been with each other. Or they were working against each other somehow and may not have been a physical fight.

This is meta-gaming, if Ryukishi was like the game master of a D&D session. "Oh, the DM wouldn't be putting a trap that could REALLY kill us all here; cuz then the story would be over!"

So for the ring, I think Kinzo gave it to 'Beatrice.' Technically speaking in EP2, it came to Ronove who then gave it to Beatrice. By the way, when else did it show up? It showed up in a fantasy scene in EP3 with Eva-Beatrice, right? And EP4 as a continuation of EP3 with Ange... It also showed up in an envelope with Battler (which *could* have been a fantasy scene) in EP5. Did it appear anywhere else?
Don't get me wrong It's not that I don't beleive there is truth in these fantasy scenes. It's that I think there is a truth behind the truth. I don't mind Kinzo actually giving the ring to someone who represents this. That may actually be true. My problem is that if I want to beleive this scene is true it should be as a past event. I have no problems with Kinzo giving the ring to Shannon. In my opinion It's possible that Shannon could be the brains of the relationship (I only said it was possible that's not what I prefer at all) and the she actually proposed to George with the ring. Shannon is surely ahead of her time she knows of things that will become popular in the future, and if she received the ring from Kinzo I suppose maybe she's surpassed the barrier of the sexes and has become a more assertive woman. And actually now that I think about it that could be what Kanon and Shannon's conversations is about. I've thought for awhile that Kanon could actually be a girl so maybe his objection in episode 2 is how assertive Shannon is being as a woman in the relationship rather than this stuff about Beatrice. I see their conversation as an objection to something rather than just Beatrice won't allow you to love him, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

When I look at a fantasy scene I think of what could the character represent. What could they really be talking about? Kanon is objecting so what is he objecting to? Could this character represent a weapon an object or a motive? I ask questions because I think although you can take some scenes literally like the scene where Ronove kills Genji, Shannon and Kanon in the same room I also see that you can look at other scenes as metaphors. For example Beatrice is killed by EVA to the point where she is only a heart. This could never happen in reality, but it can be a metaphor for something deeper.

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Well, I think Shannon and Kanon are also part of the Beatrice faction although they may have motives of their own. In fact, my speculation is that the ring passed from Kinzo -> Genji -> Kumasawa -> Shannon, since to me it seems like Shannon is the only one who had the opportunity to place it in EP5.
Well Kanon and Shannon placing it were both denied in red. In fact the only thing they didn't deny was that a letter existed in the first place because Erika didn't even ask. I think this is a moment where we are shown that there are fantasy scenes that are just completely not true. Because the red denies that anything that could make that scene possible could happen. We can't trust all of them. In fact we don't even know for sure that Battler did have the ring. Why didn't Erika notice he was wearing it when everyone was in the parlor with Natsuhi later? Maybe in reality Erika never knew a head's ring existed at all.

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
As for Kumasawa, I see her as Virgilia back in 1969 but she doesn't have to be Kinzo's mistress. There's no guarantee that Kinzo was romantically involved with his original Beatrice benefactor... We already know though that She, Nanjo, Kinzo and Genji already have the secret of Beatrice-69 and the secret of Kuwadorian. More details from that era would simply be a continuation of that same secret; that she was Virgilia or that they were raising Beatrice for reason X, etc, etc.
The only other possibilities for Kumasawa though are either she's not old Beatrice and she took care of the person who died, which we are shown in episode 3. Or she was the confidante who gave Kinzo his gold. Either that or she is the mistress and unless she revealed herself as the mistress she would have no authority at all and I don't think Kumasawa is even interested in that..

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Oh, as for her authority, I imagine it is some kind of authority from Kinzo. The reason for this is because of the 'playing dead' in a lot of the episodes. I'm assuming it's the Beatrice faction that initiates the playing dead, though they aren't the ones to commit the murders. If it is that faction, look at what they're asking people to do:
Well again this doesn't mean she has authority, you don't need authority to play dead or convince people to play a prank (you don't even want to ask the head for permission to do that), this just shows that she's a playful person who can lie a lot. And with how she goes off work constantly by faking hip pain I think we already knew that much. Her rank is really low though. I actually get the feeling that she was stripped of the eagle at some point. So she shouldn't have any authority at all even if she is Virgilia, which we aren't sure of.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-27 at 00:15.
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Old 2010-03-27, 00:24   Link #7146
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Just so you know I'm not trying to debunk what your saying. Your input is actually making me think about this in a lot of different ways. I'm seeing that there are many perspectives to see it from and your way of looking at it doesn't contradict mine completely. Talking to you is actually kind of fun! I just don't read the story from the same perspective you do. I see some truth in some of the scenes, but I want to be a little bit conservative because there are some things in those scenes that are deathly suspicious and might end up turning into a trap, which Ryukishi seems to like doing a lot if you've read some of his interviews...
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Old 2010-03-27, 00:40   Link #7147
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Don't get me wrong It's not that I don't beleive there is truth in these fantasy scenes. It's that I think there is a truth behind the truth. I don't mind Kinzo actually giving the ring to someone who represents this. That may actually be true. My problem is that if I want to beleive this scene is true it should be as a past event. I have no problems with Kinzo giving the ring to Shannon.
I'm also of the mindset that the Kinzo plus some other fantasy scenes were prior events but portrayed as if happening in that episode. So the two I can name were Kinzo giving up the ring and Kinzo declaring he was going to write a will (and asking Shannon to write it.)

So that's why I'm thinking of where the ring went and to whom, and also thinking the will exists and some people are trying to execute it. No pun intended.

Also, someone mentioned the fantasy scene regarding Eva attacking Beatrice's heart being a representation of Eva trying to disarm the bomb at the end and failing. I thought that was a reasonable suggestion. Although they made that suggestion before we got the EP6 Erika TIP about the explosion and someone shot it down. 8)


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Well Kanon and Shannon placing it were both denied in red. In fact the only thing they didn't deny was that a letter existed in the first place because Erika didn't even ask. I think this is a moment where we are shown that there are fantasy scenes that are just completely not true. Because the red denies that anything that could make that scene possible could happen. We can't trust all of them. In fact we don't even know for sure that Battler did have the ring. Why didn't Erika notice he was wearing it when everyone was in the parlor with Natsuhi later? Maybe in reality Erika never knew a head's ring existed at all.
Yah, I'm not sure what to make of that scene. Erika's attempt to solve it seemed to have ended up with the conclusion that no one could have placed the letter and no one could have knocked. I thought that this is what Ronove meant when he said EP5 had no love; that it was not solvable. But as far as I know EP5 still conforms to the Knox rules? Do the Knox rules apply to the letter/knock even if they have no consequence to the murders?

I'm still thinking there must be a solution. Although now with the disappearing Kanon trick in EP6, if you know that you can probably solve it.


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Well again this doesn't mean she has authority, you don't need authority to play dead or convince people to play a prank (you don't even want to ask the head for permission to do that), this just shows that she's a playful person who can lie a lot. And with how she goes off work constantly by faking hip pain I think we already knew that much. Her rank is really low though. I actually get the feeling that she was stripped of the eagle at some point. So she shouldn't have any authority at all even if she is Virgilia, which we aren't sure of.
I think you missed what I was saying... the people weren't playing a prank since all the playing dead went on for longer than the prank should've gone on. Even if someone killed them later, if it was just a prank people would've admitted that they started with a prank since it was a valuable clue.

In addition, Natsuhi nor Krauss would likely have not agreed to play dead unless a greater authority forced or bribed them to. No one had that authority except Kinzo, as far as we know and since he's dead the only way would be through his will that everyone recognized. (Actually lots of people wouldn't just agree to play a prank, not just those two...)

So my speculation that Kumasawa has an authority has nothing to do with her personally, I'm speculating that she's executing Kinzo's will. And that it's not for a joke; it's some kind of serious matter...

Whether she does personally have any authority or not remains to be seen. We've been shown nothing yet and we've seen her as kind of a servant that no one seems to deal with much...
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Old 2010-03-27, 00:43   Link #7148
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Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!
# Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
# This can be said of all games.


Well I just thought of this, but couldn't these red imply something else? A red is basically a hempel's Raven right so doesn't that mean that there are some things that are not true in all games?

I just think that if we are thinking about author theory shouldn't consider this concept?

For example Shkanon could be true in some episodes, but not in others.

Erika could exist in episode 5, but what's the likelihood of her surviving due to a miracle a second time? Ryuksihi defined a miracle as having a .01% of happening while something that certainly happens has 99.9% probability of happening.

It's just a possibility, but I think that someone's life or death status being true in all games" implies that some people have a life or death status that is only true in some games.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-27 at 00:54.
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Old 2010-03-27, 00:49   Link #7149
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I think you missed what I was saying... the people weren't playing a prank since all the playing dead went on for longer than the prank should've gone on. Even if someone killed them later, if it was just a prank people would've admitted that they started with a prank since it was a valuable clue.

In addition, Natsuhi nor Krauss would likely have not agreed to play dead unless a greater authority forced or bribed them to. No one had that authority except Kinzo, as far as we know and since he's dead the only way would be through his will that everyone recognized. (Actually lots of people wouldn't just agree to play a prank, not just those two...)

So my speculation that Kumasawa has an authority has nothing to do with her personally, I'm speculating that she's executing Kinzo's will. And that it's not for a joke; it's some kind of serious matter...

Whether she does personally have any authority or not remains to be seen. We've been shown nothing yet and we've seen her as kind of a servant that no one seems to deal with much...
Are you implying that all the deaths in the first twilight in episode 1 were faked? I don't know about that... maybe some of them I can buy, but not all of them. And it's hard to fake your death too since you have to control your breathing and all that. Episode 2 is also very hard to get around with this unless they were killed by a different faction later in your theory, but then why discover them at the point where they are dead with their guts on the floor and not when they were simply playing dead?
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Old 2010-03-27, 00:54   Link #7150
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Just so you know I'm not trying to debunk what your saying. Your input is actually making me think about this in a lot of different ways. I'm seeing that there are many perspectives to see it from and your way of looking at it doesn't contradict mine completely. Talking to you is actually kind of fun! I just don't read the story from the same perspective you do. I see some truth in some of the scenes, but I want to be a little bit conservative because there are some things in those scenes that are deathly suspicious and might end up turning into a trap, which Ryukishi seems to like doing a lot if you've read some of his interviews...
No worries. 8) Writing all this down serves to organize it in my head... all this stuff's been bouncing around in my head since end of EP4ish and I can't advance without it being organized.

As for what can be viewed as true and what can't be viewed... there are two kinds of hints that Ryukishi seems to give that I can classify:

1. Bread crumb trail
- These clues are so obvious and lead you into a certain direction without actually telling you what they're leading to. So for example the fact that so many characters appear to be from Higurashi, the mention of 'kakera,' the mention of past games of the witches... but he never explicitly states it out, "Yes, I'm from Higurashi." The Shkannon Theory feels like this too.

2. Single bread crumb
- These clues seem to tell you this thing existed or this thing happened that he only brings up a limited number of times, say once to three times. So mention of the will and the ring fits in here. Mention of the mirror's effect. Rosa lying about seeing Kinzo in front of Battler. There are lots of little things he hinted at, especially in the fantasy scenes which are never followed up. Important things that is not minor stuff like how Battler used to lift some weights to try and get a bit more muscle. 8)

In my view, the bread crumb trail are the traps. At least it seems so blatant. And scattered in the single bread crumbs are the genuine hints which we need to not disregard and follow up on. 8)


It seems like Umineko is one HUGE mass information sorting puzzle. If you can deal with a near overload of information you can solve it. Although that may be like solving it from the difficult end. 8)
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Old 2010-03-27, 01:07   Link #7151
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No worries. 8) Writing all this down serves to organize it in my head... all this stuff's been bouncing around in my head since end of EP4ish and I can't advance without it being organized.

As for what can be viewed as true and what can't be viewed... there are two kinds of hints that Ryukishi seems to give that I can classify:

1. Bread crumb trail
- These clues are so obvious and lead you into a certain direction without actually telling you what they're leading to. So for example the fact that so many characters appear to be from Higurashi, the mention of 'kakera,' the mention of past games of the witches... but he never explicitly states it out, "Yes, I'm from Higurashi." The Shkannon Theory feels like this too.

2. Single bread crumb
- These clues seem to tell you this thing existed or this thing happened that he only brings up a limited number of times, say once to three times. So mention of the will and the ring fits in here. Mention of the mirror's effect. Rosa lying about seeing Kinzo in front of Battler. There are lots of little things he hinted at, especially in the fantasy scenes which are never followed up. Important things that is not minor stuff like how Battler used to lift some weights to try and get a bit more muscle. 8)

In my view, the bread crumb trail are the traps. At least it seems so blatant. And scattered in the single bread crumbs are the genuine hints which we need to not disregard and follow up on. 8)


It seems like Umineko is one HUGE mass information sorting puzzle. If you can deal with a near overload of information you can solve it. Although that may be like solving it from the difficult end. 8)
Lol yeah I agree there are some hints that he just seems to plop there rather than just put whole bunch of bread crumbs for.

This is one of single bread crumbs that I found for George. It was only shown a couple times, but I've thought that this gave George the capabilty to be one heck of a mastermind! The parts I want you to look at are the parts about furniture and how they can be ordered about people with the eagle.

Besides that the stuff about the Sengoku period seem to hint at him being a great leader.

Spoiler for single bread crumb:


The reason I don't like Shkanon Is I don't think that's how Ryukishi would write it and I don't think that would be his interpretation of Knox's 10th. With Mion and Shion he absolutely gave foreshadowing that they could disguise as their twin by showing that people were suspicious of it. They didn't have to be actors and in fact Keiichi finds out Shion is Mion at some point through her voice being different. He definitely wants to portray people with flaws, but I think he wants us to sympthize with his character somewhat too.

So I don't see this happening in the same way and I want some kind of hint for someone being suspicious of a disguise to accept Ryukishi would write it that way in Umineko. Beatrice is an exception because everybody has suspicions in Umineko about that disguise, Shkanon isn't hinted as much if it is at all.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-27 at 01:19.
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Old 2010-03-27, 01:36   Link #7152
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!
# Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
# This can be said of all games.


Well I just thought of this, but couldn't these red imply something else? A red is basically a hempel's Raven right so doesn't that mean that there are some things that are not true in all games?

I just think that if we are thinking about author theory shouldn't consider this concept?
Well it's true that different people end up dying *during* the game. In Higurashi it certainly worked this way, according to Ryukishi; that Rika jumping to a different kakera meant that the background situation of that world could also be different.

I'm thinking though that the Umineko gameboard is always the same on the morning of Oct 4th though, especially in light of the Author Theory. Otherwise the red that applied to all games couldn't guaranteed to be certain. Like, what if you chanced on the world where Battler DID commit a murder? Then the red is broken.

There's also red that without game specific context ends up applying across all games. EP5's red that Kinzo could never be mistaken by sight is one; even though in EP4 it was given during Battler and Beatrice's argument. By this reasoning, there are reds and truths (stated in red or white) that span across all games. (This is what gave me the confidence in the Author theory anyways...)


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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Are you implying that all the deaths in the first twilight in episode 1 were faked? I don't know about that... maybe some of them I can buy, but not all of them. And it's hard to fake your death too since you have to control your breathing and all that. Episode 2 is also very hard to get around with this unless they were killed by a different faction later in your theory, but then why discover them at the point where they are dead with their guts on the floor and not when they were simply playing dead?
I think in Ryukishi was using EP6 to give us some answers and so playing dead on the first twilight was one of the answers. The proof being that people were found in comfortable rooms. So now we know in EP6 and EP5 people were faking the first twilight. EP3 also exhibits this behavior, everyone was found inside a room in relatively comfortable positions. (Not like some of the other murders where people were dumped outside in the rain.)

So I extended this to, "What if there's a conspiracy to fake 6 deaths in every episode?" Using the 'certain truths extend to all episode' idea from above.

So, EP1, what if they WERE playing dead but then someone came along and killed them (since people playing dead, like REALLY playing dead are easy targets) and then moved? We saw nothing past midnight to 6am so it all could've happened without being discovered. EP2, they could've been moved into the church. EP3, they were asked to play dead, killed (maybe well after they were found), but the mover did not succeed (George?). EP4 however seemed that the play-dead-person didn't get a chance to act...

But yah, I do think a different faction does the killing.


It's pretty neat how you can take one thing and ask yourself, "What if in every episode X happened?" You can immediately change that to, "What if in every episode there was a will to make X happen?" For example, what if in every episode the gold really WAS discovered? Or rather what if in every episode the existence of the gold made itself known, not necessarily found? And then there was a huge fight. EP1, one bar is shown, Krauss? EP2 - three bars were taken out; most likely from the pile... Rosa? EP3 - Eva and Rosa and Eva did act strangely afterwards. EP4 - They were in the tunnels near Kuwadorian past the gate that Battler can't open. Is that near where the gold is and they actually went there to see it?

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Lol yeah I agree there are some hints that he just seems to plop there rather than just put whole bunch of bread crumbs for.

This is one of single bread crumbs that I found for George. It was only shown a couple times, but I've thought that this gave George the capabilty to be one heck of a mastermind! The parts I want you to look at are the parts about furniture and how they can be ordered about people with the eagle.
The red in EP4 about no one being able to mistake Kinzo by sight was one such bread crumb. When I got to the end I honestly forgot about that until Battler brought it up. But the sad thing about it is he's already starting to use these bread crumbs to solve situations! So time is running out for us...

George is definitely suspicious. Someone posted much earlier that if you go by Knox rules, you can't actually know what's going on in the head of the culprit. People like Natsuhi and Eva (well, discounting her murder of Battler), Kanon it seems, maybe Jessica are out. But we don't really have much narration from George's point of view, do we? We also don't from a few of the other people...
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Old 2010-03-27, 01:56   Link #7153
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
George is definitely suspicious. Someone posted much earlier that if you go by Knox rules, you can't actually know what's going on in the head of the culprit. People like Natsuhi and Eva (well, discounting her murder of Battler), Kanon it seems, maybe Jessica are out. But we don't really have much narration from George's point of view, do we? We also don't from a few of the other people...
Ahaha well that is true unless you count the part in episode 5 where the narration laughs at us!


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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well it's true that different people end up dying *during* the game. In Higurashi it certainly worked this way, according to Ryukishi; that Rika jumping to a different kakera meant that the background situation of that world could also be different.

I'm thinking though that the Umineko gameboard is always the same on the morning of Oct 4th though, especially in light of the Author Theory. Otherwise the red that applied to all games couldn't guaranteed to be certain. Like, what if you chanced on the world where Battler DID commit a murder? Then the red is broken.

There's also red that without game specific context ends up applying across all games. EP5's red that Kinzo could never be mistaken by sight is one; even though in EP4 it was given during Battler and Beatrice's argument. By this reasoning, there are reds and truths (stated in red or white) that span across all games. (This is what gave me the confidence in the Author theory anyways..
Well what I was saying was that the red that says his death status is the same for all games implies that it's possible that some people can be dead at the start of only some games.

For example what if there was a world where Battler actually fell off the boat and drowned before coming to Rokkenjima? It wouldn't contradict any reds, but it would change the entire gameboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
George is definitely suspicious. Someone posted much earlier that if you go by Knox rules, you can't actually know what's going on in the head of the culprit. People like Natsuhi and Eva (well, discounting her murder of Battler), Kanon it seems, maybe Jessica are out. But we don't really have much narration from George's point of view, do we? We also don't from a few of the other people...

I think in Ryukishi was using EP6 to give us some answers and so playing dead on the first twilight was one of the answers. The proof being that people were found in comfortable rooms. So now we know in EP6 and EP5 people were faking the first twilight. EP3 also exhibits this behavior, everyone was found inside a room in relatively comfortable positions. (Not like some of the other murders where people were dumped outside in the rain.)

So I extended this to, "What if there's a conspiracy to fake 6 deaths in every episode?" Using the 'certain truths extend to all episode' idea from above.

So, EP1, what if they WERE playing dead but then someone came along and killed them (since people playing dead, like REALLY playing dead are easy targets) and then moved? We saw nothing past midnight to 6am so it all could've happened without being discovered. EP2, they could've been moved into the church. EP3, they were asked to play dead, killed (maybe well after they were found), but the mover did not succeed (George?). EP4 however seemed that the play-dead-person didn't get a chance to act...
But yah, I do think a different faction does the killing.
I like this idea somewhat, because it gives George a motive to leave in episode 3, but I think at least some of the games don't work that way. If episode 2 was faked somehow they were killed before anyone could show Battler the fake version of the murder. It also might mean that George and Nanjo are double agents.
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Old 2010-03-27, 02:20   Link #7154
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For example what if there was a world where Battler actually fell off the boat and drowned before coming to Rokkenjima? It wouldn't contradict any reds, but it would change the entire gameboard..
Now That I think about Ssol's theory I wonder if this might actually be true. One thing I thought of was that Jessica might be the real Battler in episode 6 and that's what the logic error was supposed to reveal. Jessica's name is never referred to in red in this episode and there is a red that says that all names refer to the actual people so what If Jessica is the actual Battler? Kanon rescuing Jessica makes a lot more sense than rescuing Battler. If this is true though it would be the ultimate troll on Erika because she has no detective's authority and she can't confirm this either way. It would be like Jessica is getting revenge across different game boards.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6786

Edit: I haven't read episode 6 yet so I have no way of finding hints I'm counting on you guys to tell me if this is possible.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-27 at 02:44.
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Old 2010-03-27, 02:53   Link #7155
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well what I was saying was that the red that says his death status is the same for all games implies that it's possible that some people can be dead at the start of only some games.

For example what if there was a world where Battler actually fell off the boat and drowned before coming to Rokkenjima? It wouldn't contradict any reds, but it would change the entire gameboard.
I'm of the mindset that the background for each episode is the same but... Battler not making it to the island is one very intriguing theory. 8) I was trying to compile evidence of that but I couldn't. I thought that if that was true then what Battler says would be merely parroting other people's ideas...

Some people can be dead at the start of some games IS true though... for Erika. In EP1-4's time of writing the real Erika was not known; effectively 'dead' if you could call it that. Then Hachijou or someone found out about her and wrote her in to EP5-6, effectively 'alive.' Now she's dead again, most likely from EP7 onwards.

But it seems this alive/dead thing is similar to the Gold Truth or Author's Prerogative. So long as the situation is unknown they can feel free to speculate. Once it is known however they can't go back...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I like this idea somewhat, because it gives George a motive to leave in episode 3, but I think at least some of the games don't work that way. If episode 2 was faked somehow they were killed before anyone could show Battler the fake version of the murder. It also might mean that George and Nanjo are double agents.
Nanjo is a confirmed double agent. 8)

Anyways, if we view these events separately, Play-Dead-Asker, Killer, Mover, we could probably construct a table of people who are the prime suspects of all three. If the killer and the mover are the same then they would show nearly the same set of people. After 6 episodes I think we have enough data... For example, the killer seems to be Eva or Hideyoshi. Maybe I'll construct the table again tomorrow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Now That I think about Ssol's theory I wonder if this might actually be true. One thing I thought of was that Jessica might be the real Battler in episode 6 and that's what the logic error was supposed to reveal. Jessica's name is never referred to in red and there is a red that says that all names refer to the actual people and Kanon rescuing Jessica make a lot more sense than rescuing Battler. If this is true though it would be the ultimate troll on Erika because she has no detective's authority and she can't confirm this either way. It would be like Jessica is getting revenge across different game boards.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6786
I like that idea. I've suspected that Jessica was not Natsuhi's real daughter since EP4 as well, since there is that hint that Natsuhi had difficulty conceiving for a long time and then had a 'miracle.'

However... one of Beatrice's red said: The rescuer is defined as the person who reset the chain lock after Battler unset it. Let us set aside the question of whether the rescue was intentional. This 'intentional' business makes me wary. I kept thinking Kanon was out to kill and at one time I thought the game would end with Erika's death at Kanon's hand! (Since I thought the thing she forgot was that giving up detective status also means you can be killed like a victim.)
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Old 2010-03-27, 03:01   Link #7156
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Chronotrig's theory about Sayo's behaviour does make sense if we remember Takano. Sure, Sayo is not going for revenge, since her motivation is love (well, one could argue that Takano's final trigger was her love for her grandfather). However, following chronotrig's theory, both Sayo and Takano follow their own conviction. Naturally, unlike chronotrig's Sayo, Takano was always fully aware about the wickedness of her actions. All the same, by giving them the proper background, R07 can always keep them from receiving punishment - Takano being a great example for this, in fact, did she even regret what she intended to do? If I remember correctly, by the end, her only pity was still directed at her own self. So, Sayo can be a ruthless killer during 7 EPs, and as long as she's stopped in the 8th EP, she can be saved.

Either way, as for my opinion on the theory, I'll save it until chronotrig is finished posting the whole thing. Please, keep it up.
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Old 2010-03-27, 07:37   Link #7157
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Regrading the game that occured in the past that Bern and Lambda have talked about, there was another TIP recently released that might give a clue.

Thanks to crystalweaver on LJ for the translation:
Whose tea party?
My understanding is that

The readers (Bern) discovered something very suspicious, and we correctly identified those as traps.

But at a latter time, just because Ryu07 wrote something in EP6 (Featherine), rather than finding out the truth (entering the candy house), we turned back and fell into the trap, which had already been identified.

Anyway, Ep7 is coming (the witches' tea party) and showed us the truth.
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Old 2010-03-27, 08:29   Link #7158
goldenlove27
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Hey Guys... I don't want to interrupt anything but I would like it if someone can help me out with some points...
Spoiler for The Tea Party of EP 6:


Sorry if its a lot but if anyone could help me out I would appreciate it.
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Old 2010-03-27, 08:53   Link #7159
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
My understanding is that

The readers (Bern) discovered something very suspicious, and we correctly identified those as traps.

But at a latter time, just because Ryu07 wrote something in EP6 (Featherine), rather than finding out the truth (entering the candy house), we turned back and fell into the trap, which had already been identified.

Anyway, Ep7 is coming (the witches' tea party) and showed us the truth.
In your opinion, what trap do you think that Ryu07 wrote in episode 6 that everyone is falling for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlove27 View Post
Hey Guys... I don't want to interrupt anything but I would like it if someone can help me out with some points...
Spoiler for The Tea Party of EP 6:


Sorry if its a lot but if anyone could help me out I would appreciate it.
The dialog occurs before Ange and Juuza take the boat to Rokkenjima and basically confirms that Juuza shot Kasumi and her six bodyguards in episode 4. It's unclear if he also shot Ange though. The episode 4 end roll said she died in 1998 but I don't know if that can be trusted.
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Old 2010-03-27, 09:11   Link #7160
goldenlove27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The dialog basically confirms that Juuza shot Kasumi and her six bodyguards in episode 4. It's unclear if he also shot Ange though. The episode 4 end roll said she died in 1998 but I don't know if that can be trusted.
Thank You and if you could sum up the last thing Ange was talking about with Featherine that would help too. Sorry if I'm asking for too much.

Spoiler for Erika:
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