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Old 2009-07-19, 18:34   Link #701
Jan-Poo
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I didn't remember that one, but there are other hints that Beatrice was originally "furniture".

In ep3 Ronove says that sometimes furniture can become powerful enough to control demons. And soon after Beatrice hushed him. It is heavily hinted that he was referring to Beatrice.

But what could that mean? Is Beatrice really furniture or is she a servant?
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Old 2009-07-19, 18:41   Link #702
Kitsu
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That furniture thing was shortly before the started to tell Beatirce her story(she didn#t say it exactly that way but she called her furniture that wouldn't make fun out of her or laugh about it) and I think Ronove said that furniture is capable of becoming a witch theirself or something. I would normally read those scnes again now but my Umineko Game died together with my hard disc today.

Oh and would that servant thing fit after, if we believe
Kumasawa=Virgillia
Shannon said that Kumsawa was like a mother to all of the servants (childs)
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Old 2009-07-19, 18:51   Link #703
Jan-Poo
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Yeah that's right he did say that.

The only problem is the fact that at the start of episode3 Virgilia calls Beatrice "milady" and it is obvious that she is the granddaughter of the head of the family.

But then again there might be several persons and things who are called Beatrice.
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Old 2009-07-19, 18:55   Link #704
Kitsu
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Quote:
she is the granddaughter of the head of the family.
Just say Jessica...cause she is the only "Milady" around Yes, I think there are more than on person/thing called beatrice
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Old 2009-07-19, 18:56   Link #705
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Spoiler for Shannon isn't there theory:


Please prove me wrong if you can so that I can start thinking again XD
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Old 2009-07-19, 19:01   Link #706
Jan-Poo
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I can prove you wrong about Kanon's "crime":

Spoiler for ep4 tea party:


@Kitsu: Yeah the narrator of the scene at the start of ep3 just screams Jessica to me, but unless it is stated in red it can't be proved.
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Old 2009-07-19, 19:02   Link #707
Kitsu
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Jan-Poo beat me to it.


Yes, it can't be proved...but Episode 2 also screams Jessica=Beato like almost any other episode xD
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Old 2009-07-19, 19:23   Link #708
Marion
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Even if everyone had an alibi that prevented them from killing Kanon, there's nothing in red saying everyone had an alibi for attacking him. Someone was down in the boiler room, proven by Battler when they heard the other door opening or something.
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Old 2009-07-19, 19:27   Link #709
Cola91
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Oh yeah almost forgot about that
Spoiler for continuation:
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Old 2009-07-19, 19:29   Link #710
Saerianne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cola91 View Post
Oh yeah almost forgot about that
Spoiler for continuation:
And then this is where the whole real name debate thing comes in. I think this theory is right though.
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Old 2009-07-19, 19:29   Link #711
Kitsu
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@Marion

What!? that's a proof?

Let's reconstruct the scene

-Everyone is nervous wrack, many family members, loved ones etc jsut died
-They hear Kumasawa scream
-They rush down in total panik/anger and are completly tense
-they find a wounded/almost dead Kanon in a very dark boiler room, in which seeing is really dificult
-the tension rises
-somehow Natsuhi makes out a shape in the shadows
-the tension is unbearable
-Battler hears the door close

Are you still sure there was someone?
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Old 2009-07-19, 20:12   Link #712
Slate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
@Marion

What!? that's a proof?

Let's reconstruct the scene

-Everyone is nervous wrack, many family members, loved ones etc jsut died
-They hear Kumasawa scream
-They rush down in total panik/anger and are completly tense
-they find a wounded/almost dead Kanon in a very dark boiler room, in which seeing is really dificult
-the tension rises
-somehow Natsuhi makes out a shape in the shadows
-the tension is unbearable
-Battler hears the door close

Are you still sure there was someone?
"You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!"

Anything shown cannot be used as evidence.
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Old 2009-07-19, 20:53   Link #713
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
@Marion

What!? that's a proof?

Let's reconstruct the scene

-Everyone is nervous wrack, many family members, loved ones etc jsut died
-They hear Kumasawa scream
-They rush down in total panik/anger and are completly tense
-they find a wounded/almost dead Kanon in a very dark boiler room, in which seeing is really dificult
-the tension rises
-somehow Natsuhi makes out a shape in the shadows
-the tension is unbearable
-Battler hears the door close

Are you still sure there was someone?
It is possible. Fact is Kanon was still bleeding. That was witnessed. And that red rule doesn't really apply to this part, because Battler himself saw Kanon bleeding and on the ground. Nothing in red can be trusted, but Battler is considered the trusted narrator. Everything not seen in his POV cannot be trusted, as it is Beato's narration. Plus this is EP 1, and at this point red text wasn't introduced.

Which means Kanon was at the very least attacked by someone. Not killed, but attacked at the very least.
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Old 2009-07-19, 21:45   Link #714
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cola91 View Post
Oh yeah almost forgot about that
Spoiler for continuation:
That's one option, but there is another one: Kanon was killed, but not on Rokkenjima.

In both cases we have an incongruence with what is stated on episode2: "Kanon was killed inside Jessica's room".

I find this thing very strange, because seeing as how Kanon always dies from the same kind of wound, it would look like a rule or something, but the red truths on Episode1 completely defy this, even thought it is still said (but not in red) that Kanon died from the same kind of wound.

Kanon is like the schroedinger cat, he's both dead and alive.

EDIT: ah I forgot another one: Kanon was killed by an animal... err... it could only be a monkey realistically speaking... nah... even in that case a monkey wouldn't have a strong enough grip especially with that kind of weapon...
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Old 2009-07-19, 22:12   Link #715
MeoTwister5
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Personally the problem with no human could kill Kanon lies in three questions:

1. No human could kill Kanon ON THE ISLAND? It's quite probable that the statement could only refer to him not being killable on the island and only on the island.

2. It could also mean literally what it said, that Kanon is impervious to any human means. That would of course also mean that any means that are indirect but have the intention of a human killing him would also count. Therefore, he could only die by a means not intended by any human. That only limits it now to either accidental death (manslaughter) or a none-human cause. From an anti-magic POV of course.

3. But from an Anti-mystery POV... well it's pretty obvious now.

The most important thing at this point is if it's possible to say in red that Kanon was in fact alive but died. You can't kill someone who isn't alive, and there needs confirmation that Kanon is himself a living entity capable of dying, even if he can only die from non-human means.
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Old 2009-07-19, 23:50   Link #716
Dream Illusionist
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Hey everyone! I'm rather new to these forums, but I've been reading these topics for the last couple of days, having become addicted to the Umineko series around a month ago. Anyways, I thought I'd bring to light some things I noticed and some theories I thought of after playing the game.

I don't think these have been addressed before, but if they have, I'm sorry. Probably skipped them in the midst of so many pages. XD; I focused on Episode 1 this time around. I'll type my other reasonings later on.

Spoiler for Episode 1 Theories/Reasoning:


I hope my thoughts aren't too far-fetched... anyways, I'll hopefully post more here from now onwards.
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Old 2009-07-20, 00:22   Link #717
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream Illusionist View Post
Spoiler for Episode 1 Theories/Reasoning:
Spoiler for Shannon's face in the shed from the anime:


As I posted immediately after watching the third anime episode this was the only thing I found strange in the whole episode. Why are her tears fresh six hours after death? She's not dead.
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Old 2009-07-20, 00:25   Link #718
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Spoiler for Shannon's face in the shed from the anime:


As I posted immediately after watching the third anime episode this was the only thing I found strange in the whole episode. Why are her tears fresh six hours after death? She's not dead.
That's dramatic effect. There was nothing about tears in the VN - DEEN just did that on their own :U
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Old 2009-07-20, 00:27   Link #719
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Spoiler for Chained Room:
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Old 2009-07-20, 00:29   Link #720
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
That's dramatic effect. There was nothing about tears in the VN - DEEN just did that on their own :U
I doubt that. Given the fact she was hidden from view unlike the other corpses I will bet on her not being dead at that point.
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